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The rise of the vegans.

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  • I’ve been eating a fair bit of vegan food recently, had an amazing meal at a Japanese restaurant called Flat Three at Holland Park.definitely recommend that and am looking forward to going to Farmacy in a week or two.

    Have no current plans to go the full vegan, vegetarian or ‘just fish’ bit I do feel a lot better for cutting down on meat, dairy and especially processed meat.

    My mum has bantams and I have also had some of @Arsenetatters rescue hens eggs and there is no doubt that these eggs are almost unrecognisable even from super premium farmers eggs life Buford browns and Cotswold legbar. The requirements for free range eggs are not quite limited and in my opinion should be tougher, it ain’t hens foaming around the woods for sure.

    What I find slightly interesting is the number of high profile sportspeople becoming vegan and swearing that it improves their longevity of high performance. Williams sisters, Hamilton, Haye all day it aids recovery times, focus etc.

    Thank you @Alwaysneil :smile:

    We have loads of fresh free-range eggs from ex commercial hens. We give them away to spread the word about proper free range conditions.

    Hens can be classed as free range but only have to have 'access' to a small hatch to the outside when the farmer chooses to open it. If there are sheds of 2000-3000 hens then, as you can imagine, not all get out. I've rescued hens categorised as free range and they've been pale and lacking feathers.

    Anyone wishing to have some eggs please PM me :smile:
  • I've learned something today so thanks @Anna_Kissed never knew vegans didn't eat honey. Very interesting reading thanks for taking the time to type all that out.

    I get the milk and eggs argument but I don't really follow the thinking with the bees argument if i'm totally honest - no offence intended but I don't see an insect as anything like the same category as a cow or a chicken - plus they aren't killed in the process for our consumption and are doing nothing they wouldn't normally be doing anyway - it's not like we are forcing them to create honey since they do it naturally - and they seem to be ok sustaining themselves despite what we take from them - as you said they clearly have access to their honey stores at all times in order to be able to have a feeding frenzy when they are smoked - therefore when they are not being smoked they must still have that same access to their honey?? Therefore it follows we can only be taking what they aren't consuming themselves anyway?

    For that benefit we get, we are then providing bees a hive that is safe and free from predators, who would normally destroy a natural hive and kill and injure bees to get to the honey inside, which has to be a big plus for the bees as well? A quid pro quo you could call it...

    Having said all that I only really consume honey when they come in cheerio or crunchy nut cornflakes form so it wouldn't be something I would particularly miss if I had to give it up one day!

    No offence intended to any vegans out there I respect your choices just thought i'd put out my thoughts on first learning about the honey issue and am open to being educated further if i'm wrong in my assumptions!

  • This thread is being sunk so soon! I've only just seen it and commented and it's already on its way out. No arguments here so why?

    Ok it's a football forum etc etc but why sink not sink the erectile dysfunction thread too?
  • edited July 2018
    @Manicmania
    Cheers, buddy. I accept as valid your thoughts about bees.
    I work with a Beekeeper - a good guy. He looks after the bees, but he removes their honey. How do they feel about that, I wonder? Are they content? Frustrated? If they have a surplus, good luck to them. If the winter is hard, then they might have stocks aplenty. However, what if they struggle because the result of their efforts has been taken away? We could speculate on and on about that. My personal take on this is to let the bees do what they do and afford them the opportunity to use the honey that they have made for themselves. I have no need for their honey, so I leave them be (e).
  • edited July 2018
    We have friends who are vegan from this year, this is fine thats your choice but dont go on about it everytime you see us.

    It reminds me of politics, everyone who is vegan feels the need to put their view across and try to force them on you.

    I like meat and wont entertain reasons not to eat it, sounds pretty narrow but no point me listening when i could never give up meat. I am a fussy eater as it is, so will make it 100x harder to find food i like.

    PS- Proper annoys me when people post photos saying vegan / meatfree etc, i dont take a meal of my steak/burger every 5 minutes ramming it down peoples throats.
  • where do we all stand on Pescetarianism?
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  • A few of my friends are vegan, and having given them grief for not being able to enjoy a juicy steak or a bacon sandwich I gave it a go for a month.

    I felt more alert, less tired in the mornings and all round a lot more healthier.

    I've reverted to eating meat because I enjoy it, but I eat a lot less and I have more admiration for veganism.

    Biggest thing I missed, a proper cup of tea.
  • where do we all stand on Pescetarianism?

    It's racist towards fish

  • A few of my friends are vegan, and having given them grief for not being able to enjoy a juicy steak or a bacon sandwich I gave it a go for a month.

    I felt more alert, less tired in the mornings and all round a lot more healthier.

    I've reverted to eating meat because I enjoy it, but I eat a lot less and I have more admiration for veganism.

    Biggest thing I missed, a proper cup of tea.

    That was probably not because of what you took out, but what you put in instead. If you now consume the same amount of veg (incl. the bean and pulses) that you ate when you were an admirable vegan, but add a piece of meat you like, you'll probably feel the same as your vegan self.

    I think the biggest problem with meat eaters, is that they probably don't eat enough veg to go with their meat...
  • Im finding as i get older I really enjoy plant food. Eat tonnes of beets, avos, falafel quinoa. etc etc. I find it really tasty.

    When we are getting a kebab from the late night place across the road I choose the falafel and hummus kebab. Posh in plumstead these days.
    But i just couldn't go the whole hog and give up meat, cheese, and eggs, though i definitely eat less of it.
  • The dairy industry is the one I struggle most with, and to my eternal shame have not managed to kick it (yet). Keeping prices low for those that can't afford it so their kids have something healthy and nutritious to drink is one of the reasons farmers resort to mass production and that can't be sniffed at either.

    i think there needs to be a culture change around quality and provenance of meat and animal products, people should buy the best they can afford, and i would hope this would ease the numbers of animals that are forced into these conditions. It's not going to please everyone, but it might be a start. I'd probably go lab grown only if they got it right, i eat a lot of substitutes as my wife is veggie and the standard is getting loads better - i had a very convincing chicken schwarmer the other day.

    I remain unconvinced of the assertion that drinking milk is unnatural - we're the only animal that does a lot of things, after all, it doesn't make it unnatural.
  • Thanks @Anna_Kissed and @AddickUpNorth for your interesting views, and I totally respect anyones opinions and reasons to be Veggie or Vergan, especially when it comes to animals welfare, if you feel like you are making a difference then I cant argue with how you feel, however it wont stop me taking the piss out of Vegans or veggies, its damn good sport .

    I have to confess that in the last few years I do eat less meat, I have replaced that with Fish, I love fish and vegetables, I still eat meat because I like it, and firmly believe that humans are omnivores and a balanced diet is the correct way forward for good health.
    Also, and to be perfectly honest, I really couldn't care less about how an animal that is bred for food is treated, ultimately there are billions of people on this planet that need feeding, and I understand that life is unfair.

    Interesting BBC piece here:-

    http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20160926-what-would-happen-if-the-world-suddenly-went-vegetarian
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  • The dairy industry is the one I struggle most with, and to my eternal shame have not managed to kick it (yet). Keeping prices low for those that can't afford it so their kids have something healthy and nutritious to drink is one of the reasons farmers resort to mass production and that can't be sniffed at either.

    i think there needs to be a culture change around quality and provenance of meat and animal products, people should buy the best they can afford, and i would hope this would ease the numbers of animals that are forced into these conditions. It's not going to please everyone, but it might be a start. I'd probably go lab grown only if they got it right, i eat a lot of substitutes as my wife is veggie and the standard is getting loads better - i had a very convincing chicken schwarmer the other day.

    I remain unconvinced of the assertion that drinking milk is unnatural - we're the only animal that does a lot of things, after all, it doesn't make it unnatural.

    The fact that we're all pretty much allergic to cow's milk (everyone is Lactose Intolerant to an extent - Northern Europeans' digestive systems just make a much better attempt at processing the bacteria than the rest of the world) would seem to give credence to the theory that it's 'unnatural' to drink it. We've only been doing that for a few thousand years anyway - and that was due to a genetic mutation (prior to that, we would have been poisoned when we drank it). You're right that we do a lot of other 'unnatural' things that are bad for us (drink alcohol, smoke etc) - I think the vegan argument is 'why would you do something that's unnatural when there are plenty of alternatives'
  • The good thing now is there are many more vegan beers and wines than even last year.

    I find it difficult to give up dairy so haven't yet become vegan. Which I want to do. This thread is helping to push me into it though.
  • Now that the wind up merchants appear to have fucked off, it's interesting to see that there are people who are able to extol the virtues of veganism sensibly (AUN, Anna), without hype and without having to fend off ill-informed imbeciles. It's also good to see the counter points from Big Rob and Curb_It

    Personally, I am omnivorous, but fully understand and appreciate the difficulty a lot of people have with eating not only meat, but dairy and meat products. These are largely a result of the way we farm/produce those products. No-one with a brain or a heart can see the disgraceful way we treat battery hens, dairy cows etc and not be affected by it. In addition, the enormous amount of space we dedicate to producing meat (grazing land particularly) means that its unsustainable in the future - especially with a growing population. I see humanity progressively moving to a more plant-based diet anyway.

    That said, I have got two vegan mates who are insufferable bores about it - to the extent that I've blocked them from my feeds on social networks because I'm sick of the proselytising. To counterbalance this, one of the blokes I race with is a vegan - and has been for twenty years - but apart from a little 'V' sticker on his bike you would never know it unless you ate with him regularly.

    I don't understand why the thread has been sunk?

    It hasn't been sunk has it?
  • Yes and to add, my jokey "go away" comment was only aimed at the poster because he continually bangs on about vegan, and plant food. Look at his posts. He is a vegan warrior.
  • Now that the wind up merchants appear to have fucked off, it's interesting to see that there are people who are able to extol the virtues of veganism sensibly (AUN, Anna), without hype and without having to fend off ill-informed imbeciles. It's also good to see the counter points from Big Rob and Curb_It

    Personally, I am omnivorous, but fully understand and appreciate the difficulty a lot of people have with eating not only meat, but dairy and meat products. These are largely a result of the way we farm/produce those products. No-one with a brain or a heart can see the disgraceful way we treat battery hens, dairy cows etc and not be affected by it. In addition, the enormous amount of space we dedicate to producing meat (grazing land particularly) means that its unsustainable in the future - especially with a growing population. I see humanity progressively moving to a more plant-based diet anyway.

    That said, I have got two vegan mates who are insufferable bores about it - to the extent that I've blocked them from my feeds on social networks because I'm sick of the proselytising. To counterbalance this, one of the blokes I race with is a vegan - and has been for twenty years - but apart from a little 'V' sticker on his bike you would never know it unless you ate with him regularly.

    I don't understand why the thread has been sunk?

    It hasn't been sunk has it?
    Looking at it now, I don't think so - no. But looking at previous comments it seems it may have been sunk earlier, then 'unsunk'?
  • bobmunro said:

    In the animal kingdom (of which we are part) there are predators and prey. That for me is the natural order of things. A pride of lions will chase a gazelle and rip it apart - should we be educating lions to eat tofu?

    However, as humans we have the sentience, compassion and ability to consider animal welfare and I would wholly support making the lives of our prey, and the ending of those lives, as comfortable, compassionate and as humane as possible.

    I have zero issue with and respect anyone wanting to be a vegan or vegetarian but won't accept being told that what I do is on the moral low ground.

    We had a laying flock of 14 hens and 2 cockerels, 4 months ago (Not including the 5 or 6 meat birds I get in every so often), we are now down to 4 +1 chick. We gave 4 to one of my Mrs clients little girl, to start her off with and the remaining 8 have been lost to buzzards. We were going into the run of a morning and finding carcusses completely stripped bare with just head and wings remaining and the other morning I walked out and saw a buzzard standing on top of the last hen to be killed. I haven't had the time recently, but I have just managed to put some red and white barrier tape across the top, which seems to work until I do get the time to do something a bit more permanent.

    I rarely take any of the laying flock to eat, but I personally cannot see the logic in keeping hens and not eating them, while accepting that predators will.

    Also, something to note - personally speaking, its a completely different feeling losing a chicken to predation or illness to what it feels like to dispatch them to eat. The same, to me, as seeing a deer been run over at the side of the road
  • I'm in favour of new laws concerning animal welfare that outlaw all the inhumane practices (except slaughter itself) listed here. Milking would be done by hand.

    The knock-on effects would be interesting. Price and quality of meat and dairy would certainly rise, and there would need to be a corresponding rise in affordable alternatives. The lack of tasty and widely-available plant or fungi-based fast food would need to be addressed.

    I would probably still eat meat and dairy, but the situation would be healthier for all concerned I think.
  • A few of my friends are vegan, and having given them grief for not being able to enjoy a juicy steak or a bacon sandwich I gave it a go for a month.

    I felt more alert, less tired in the mornings and all round a lot more healthier.

    I've reverted to eating meat because I enjoy it, but I eat a lot less and I have more admiration for veganism.

    Biggest thing I missed, a proper cup of tea.

    That was probably not because of what you took out, but what you put in instead. If you now consume the same amount of veg (incl. the bean and pulses) that you ate when you were an admirable vegan, but add a piece of meat you like, you'll probably feel the same as your vegan self.

    I think the biggest problem with meat eaters, is that they probably don't eat enough veg to go with their meat...
    But there's no such thing as "meat eaters" anyway, as human meat eaters are omnivores. We're not lions or tigers who live on a 99-100% meat diet, even people with poor diets will be eating lots of plant based carbs as well, chips, bread, plus vegetable protein (e.g. baked beans) etc. I will have a nice chicken casserole tonight, but also enjoy hummus and falafel etc

    I agree that it's down to the balance in your diet. A nice stir fry, with lots of vegetables and a few pieces of lean chicken breast or beef will be just as healthy if not more healthy than the one with tofu in it, red meat in particular has nutrients that are really difficult to replicate with a vegan diet, as the body absorbs them easier. Our digestive system is after all designed to eat meat, chimpanzees for example also eat meat from time to time.

    As for the moral issues regarding intensive farming, isn't that a reason to eat less, but better quality meat, raised ethically, rather than not eating meat at all? Human civilisation has been based around rearing animals, and such livestock will have much lower food miles than most vegan alternatives which have to be imported.

  • Leuth said:

    I'm in favour of new laws concerning animal welfare that outlaw all the inhumane practices (except slaughter itself) listed here. Milking would be done by hand.

    The knock-on effects would be interesting. Price and quality of meat and dairy would certainly rise, and there would need to be a corresponding rise in affordable alternatives. The lack of tasty and widely-available plant or fungi-based fast food would need to be addressed.

    I would probably still eat meat and dairy, but the situation would be healthier for all concerned I think.

    Totally agree with that
  • vegan certainly on the rise anyone that watched the million pound menu on bbc, plenty of vegan ideas on that and really good looking stuff not just rice and beans.
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