The Dangers of a Cashless Society.

Algarveaddick

cafcfan said:

Algarveaddick said:

colthe3rd said:

seth plum said:

colthe3rd said:

LenGlover said:

colthe3rd said:

LenGlover said:

Katrien Meire heaven. She's in the wrong business.

Marginalise the elderly or those who cannot afford the latest all singing all dancing mobile telephone.

Elitist and dividing yet the irony is that the most strident advocates will regard themselves as socialist and inclusive.

So the elderly don't have a bank card? WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE OLD PEOPLE????!!!!!

A bank card doesn't help you pay Dartford Crossing charges with a phone app.

A lot of old gits like me still have a mobile phone for making and receiving phone calls and a text message.

My old antique phone actually has a camera on it so if I really feel like living on the edge I occasionally take a photograph all of which will be lost of course once my telephone finally dies a death.

Words like 'App' to me and many others of my vintage is the equivalent of trying to read the excellent work of @ROT, chronicled in other threads, in the original Flemish or is it Dutch or Walloon?

The patronising sniffy attitude towards the technologically disabled, demonstrated by the post I have quoted, is widespread too so does not encourage engagement as nobody likes been laughed at for their inept efforts in any field.

I am the cyber fat kid in the gym trying and failing to vault. I do not think I am alone either although the stigma of being technophobic in modern society seems to be worse than that accorded to racists or anti semites.

From a 30 second search I can see you can pay the Dartford crossing by many ways other than the app even with cash at payzone points.

Ignorance is not an excuse. If people are unwilling to change then that's their fault. Technology is on the whole very user friendly these days. My Dad who's in his seventies doesn't have a problem with it. Never used a computer for his work, never grew up with it but has accepted that things change and if you don't then you'll be left behind. Sure he gets stuck with some things, everyone does but all people need to do is ask for help*.

*Google.

I refer the right honourable poster to the Bexley NHS app, and ask how user friendly that system is for blind people.

I am shocked that the NHS have clocked something up. I'm not saying that every single bit of technology in use is perfect or infallible. It isn't. However on the whole it has made our lives simpler and easier.

There are of course merits to be had both ways for this but this whole debate was not about that. It was scare mongering of the modern world and my point was at the beginning and still is that if you do not accept that the world has changed and do not adapt to it you will be left behind. It has happened at every technological revolution in human history and the same was said by those that resisted change at each of those points.

There are people who genuinely struggle to learn new things though Col. We all assume people are as bright as us (well as bright as you, at least), and they really are not. I am sure that you don't want these people to starve because at some point in the future everyone does their food shopping on line, or not be able to make a doctors appointment if they are ill? Of course you don't. So let them carry on with their luddite lives, which have no real massive negative affect on your effortless glide along the information superhighway anyway, and continue to run a cashless society alongside people for whom cash will always be king.

On another note - just how easy is it for an individual to get hold of a credit card reader?

Very easy (and cheap) indeed. But what are they going to learn? There's bugger all on the chip other than what's on the magnetic strip. That is the stuff that's printed on the front anyway. Name, card number, expiry and the three or four digit CVV number off the back. The main exception being that (I think) your PIN is also stored on the chip. But my understanding is that everything on the chip is encrypted. So, unless you are also in possession of the encryption key, even if it could be read it would just be gobbledegook. It only becomes intelligible once it "speaks" with the service providers servers.

As I understand it, this is why most card fraud these days is internet based rather than with a physical card presence. (As you can't Chip & PIN on-line, you use the CVV instead. So, if someone has stolen your card, they can purchase on-line until such time as one of those extra security question pages pops up or your report it missing and get it blocked.)

Edited to add: It's a mystery to me why they still ask you to sign the back of a new card. When did anyone last have it checked? In any event the surface is so slippy, and the strip so small, it looks nothing much like my actual signature anyway.

Sorry - I should have explained. When I were a lad, I used to put on occasional gigs, just a hobby not a business. Everyone paid cash. If people are turning up expecting to pay with a card, how easy would it be for me to get a reader so that people could use that method is what I was getting at?

cafcfan

Algarveaddick said:

cafcfan said:

Algarveaddick said:

colthe3rd said:

seth plum said:

colthe3rd said:

LenGlover said:

colthe3rd said:

LenGlover said:

Katrien Meire heaven. She's in the wrong business.

Marginalise the elderly or those who cannot afford the latest all singing all dancing mobile telephone.

Elitist and dividing yet the irony is that the most strident advocates will regard themselves as socialist and inclusive.

So the elderly don't have a bank card? WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE OLD PEOPLE????!!!!!

A bank card doesn't help you pay Dartford Crossing charges with a phone app.

A lot of old gits like me still have a mobile phone for making and receiving phone calls and a text message.

My old antique phone actually has a camera on it so if I really feel like living on the edge I occasionally take a photograph all of which will be lost of course once my telephone finally dies a death.

Words like 'App' to me and many others of my vintage is the equivalent of trying to read the excellent work of @ROT, chronicled in other threads, in the original Flemish or is it Dutch or Walloon?

The patronising sniffy attitude towards the technologically disabled, demonstrated by the post I have quoted, is widespread too so does not encourage engagement as nobody likes been laughed at for their inept efforts in any field.

I am the cyber fat kid in the gym trying and failing to vault. I do not think I am alone either although the stigma of being technophobic in modern society seems to be worse than that accorded to racists or anti semites.

From a 30 second search I can see you can pay the Dartford crossing by many ways other than the app even with cash at payzone points.

Ignorance is not an excuse. If people are unwilling to change then that's their fault. Technology is on the whole very user friendly these days. My Dad who's in his seventies doesn't have a problem with it. Never used a computer for his work, never grew up with it but has accepted that things change and if you don't then you'll be left behind. Sure he gets stuck with some things, everyone does but all people need to do is ask for help*.

*Google.

I refer the right honourable poster to the Bexley NHS app, and ask how user friendly that system is for blind people.

I am shocked that the NHS have clocked something up. I'm not saying that every single bit of technology in use is perfect or infallible. It isn't. However on the whole it has made our lives simpler and easier.

There are of course merits to be had both ways for this but this whole debate was not about that. It was scare mongering of the modern world and my point was at the beginning and still is that if you do not accept that the world has changed and do not adapt to it you will be left behind. It has happened at every technological revolution in human history and the same was said by those that resisted change at each of those points.

There are people who genuinely struggle to learn new things though Col. We all assume people are as bright as us (well as bright as you, at least), and they really are not. I am sure that you don't want these people to starve because at some point in the future everyone does their food shopping on line, or not be able to make a doctors appointment if they are ill? Of course you don't. So let them carry on with their luddite lives, which have no real massive negative affect on your effortless glide along the information superhighway anyway, and continue to run a cashless society alongside people for whom cash will always be king.

On another note - just how easy is it for an individual to get hold of a credit card reader?

Very easy (and cheap) indeed. But what are they going to learn? There's bugger all on the chip other than what's on the magnetic strip. That is the stuff that's printed on the front anyway. Name, card number, expiry and the three or four digit CVV number off the back. The main exception being that (I think) your PIN is also stored on the chip. But my understanding is that everything on the chip is encrypted. So, unless you are also in possession of the encryption key, even if it could be read it would just be gobbledegook. It only becomes intelligible once it "speaks" with the service providers servers.

As I understand it, this is why most card fraud these days is internet based rather than with a physical card presence. (As you can't Chip & PIN on-line, you use the CVV instead. So, if someone has stolen your card, they can purchase on-line until such time as one of those extra security question pages pops up or your report it missing and get it blocked.)

Edited to add: It's a mystery to me why they still ask you to sign the back of a new card. When did anyone last have it checked? In any event the surface is so slippy, and the strip so small, it looks nothing much like my actual signature anyway.

Sorry - I should have explained. When I were a lad, I used to put on occasional gigs, just a hobby not a business. Everyone paid cash. If people are turning up expecting to pay with a card, how easy would it be for me to get a reader so that people could use that method is what I was getting at?

Oops! Cross purposes! So you're not a budding criminal then?!

This one is £29 it seems. https://izettle.com/gb/card-readers?gclid=CjwKCAjwq57cBRBYEiwAdpx0vfGgGiTJ8VEnKSznFBlhoSSEZqPvmVphIhLKs3LusUBWoOOeDvZi2RoCAJwQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds I do not know what "cut" they take and I also note rather than having a built-in SIM, it piggybacks on to your mobile, so there could easily be extra costs there I suppose.

I recently had a conversation with a restaurant owner about how long the paper rolls that dole out the customers receipt lasted him on these devices. He reckoned about a week, which seemed pretty good to me. But if regular PC printers are anything to go by, I expect the consumables (ink/paper rolls) could be quite pricey.

bobmunro

Callumcafc said:

If cash is your records, then plastic is your CDs and online wallets are the mp3 downloads. Will cash become fashionable again over time?

I doubt it - if technology solutions fail it's because the global excrement has hit the air circulatory device and all we'll be left with is barter.

jimmymelrose

Callumcafc said:

I’ve personally used cash no more than half a dozen times in the past year.

It will happen to plastic cards as well soon enough - just as people got tired of carrying around notes and coins, they are getting tired of having a debit card, a credit card, a club card, some ID etc.

If they haven’t already, companies are beginning to roll out their own app to make purchases through nowadays.

Even further into the future is the Amazon Go store over here in the States where you don’t even need to go to a till to pay for your purchase. You just scan your phone on the way in and leave with whatever you want on the way out. It automatically sends the bill to your Amazon account. No cash, no plastic.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/amazon-go-store-no-cashiers-checkout-lines-seattle/

That sounds awful. I would have to get a smartphone.

jimmymelrose

I'm not quite like sethplum but I do sometimes feel a bit like that. No-one has ever explained to me what a hashtag is for for example, probably because I've never asked.

jimmymelrose

colthe3rd said:

Algarveaddick said:

colthe3rd said:

seth plum said:

colthe3rd said:

LenGlover said:

colthe3rd said:

LenGlover said:

Katrien Meire heaven. She's in the wrong business.

Marginalise the elderly or those who cannot afford the latest all singing all dancing mobile telephone.

Elitist and dividing yet the irony is that the most strident advocates will regard themselves as socialist and inclusive.

So the elderly don't have a bank card? WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE OLD PEOPLE????!!!!!

A bank card doesn't help you pay Dartford Crossing charges with a phone app.

A lot of old gits like me still have a mobile phone for making and receiving phone calls and a text message.

My old antique phone actually has a camera on it so if I really feel like living on the edge I occasionally take a photograph all of which will be lost of course once my telephone finally dies a death.

Words like 'App' to me and many others of my vintage is the equivalent of trying to read the excellent work of @ROT, chronicled in other threads, in the original Flemish or is it Dutch or Walloon?

The patronising sniffy attitude towards the technologically disabled, demonstrated by the post I have quoted, is widespread too so does not encourage engagement as nobody likes been laughed at for their inept efforts in any field.

I am the cyber fat kid in the gym trying and failing to vault. I do not think I am alone either although the stigma of being technophobic in modern society seems to be worse than that accorded to racists or anti semites.

From a 30 second search I can see you can pay the Dartford crossing by many ways other than the app even with cash at payzone points.

Ignorance is not an excuse. If people are unwilling to change then that's their fault. Technology is on the whole very user friendly these days. My Dad who's in his seventies doesn't have a problem with it. Never used a computer for his work, never grew up with it but has accepted that things change and if you don't then you'll be left behind. Sure he gets stuck with some things, everyone does but all people need to do is ask for help*.

*Google.

I refer the right honourable poster to the Bexley NHS app, and ask how user friendly that system is for blind people.

I am shocked that the NHS have clocked something up. I'm not saying that every single bit of technology in use is perfect or infallible. It isn't. However on the whole it has made our lives simpler and easier.

There are of course merits to be had both ways for this but this whole debate was not about that. It was scare mongering of the modern world and my point was at the beginning and still is that if you do not accept that the world has changed and do not adapt to it you will be left behind. It has happened at every technological revolution in human history and the same was said by those that resisted change at each of those points.

There are people who genuinely struggle to learn new things though Col. We all assume people are as bright as us (well as bright as you, at least), and they really are not. I am sure that you don't want these people to starve because at some point in the future everyone does their food shopping on line, or not be able to make a doctors appointment if they are ill? Of course you don't. So let them carry on with their luddite lives, which have no real massive negative affect on your effortless glide along the information superhighway anyway, and continue to run a cashless society alongside people for whom cash will always be king.

On another note - just how easy is it for an individual to get hold of a credit card reader?

I like you Algarve but I still feel you're missing my point. There are very few places that won't accept cash payments so that argument is out. Last I checked there are still physical shops and supermarkets in which to buy food and I haven't had a doctor's surgery in which at a minimum I couldn't ring up to get an appointment.

My point is, if people want to carry on in being ignorant, then fine, doesn't affect my life whatsoever. Don't moan about change though. If people genuinely don't know how to use something there are lots of places to get help, plenty of initiatives about to help people who might struggle. To me it's all about a refusal to ask for that help not the technology itself.

Disagree. I personally don't want to have to own a smartphone but I can see the day looming when I will be forced to do so. Everything is beginning to demand us to download this app or another, or scan with a smartphone. I just think that we should have a choice. If society requires us to have a smartphone in order to just carry out our day to day lives then perhaps we should be provided with one. After all, no-one tells me that in order to have a ten pound note I shall have to be deducted 10 pounds and 10 pence in order to cover the cost of printing the note.
By the way, my point of view is that smartphones are creating dumb people who walk around like zombies and are not longer really connected to the world before their eyes. Only by sticking to a dumbphone can one remain smart.
If Room 101 really existed then I would put all mobile phones (both smart and dumb) into it. It would actually make our lives simple again.

JaShea99

Covered End said:

seth plum said:

I thought an Oyster card was an actual contactless card.

Well it sort of is/isn't, but why go to the trouble of topping up an oyster card if you can just use a credit/debit card ?

Because at least then you can control what you’re spending. With your debit card you can end up being overcharged because you forgot to tap out or end up being charged £11 for tapping out then tapping back in minutes later because your train was cancelled.

Covered End

JaShea99 said:

Covered End said:

seth plum said:

I thought an Oyster card was an actual contactless card.

Well it sort of is/isn't, but why go to the trouble of topping up an oyster card if you can just use a credit/debit card ?

Because at least then you can control what you’re spending. With your debit card you can end up being overcharged because you forgot to tap out or end up being charged £11 for tapping out then tapping back in minutes later because your train was cancelled.

If you register your contactless cards or Oyster card for that matter on the TFL site.
You can check all your journeys are correct and if they are not, you can correct them, so that you are not over charged for not tapping out.

Regarding the cancelled train issue, how does using Oyster differ to a credit/debit card ?

JaShea99

Covered End said:

JaShea99 said:

Covered End said:

seth plum said:

I thought an Oyster card was an actual contactless card.

Well it sort of is/isn't, but why go to the trouble of topping up an oyster card if you can just use a credit/debit card ?

Because at least then you can control what you’re spending. With your debit card you can end up being overcharged because you forgot to tap out or end up being charged £11 for tapping out then tapping back in minutes later because your train was cancelled.

If you register your contactless cards or Oyster card for that matter on the TFL site.
You can check all your journeys are correct and if they are not, you can correct them, so that you are not over charged for not tapping out.

Regarding the cancelled train issue, how does using Oyster differ to a credit/debit card ?

I've done that and will hopefully get it refunded.

Because if I had, for example, £5 on my Oyster, that's all that I could have been charged (plus probably a little extra if it went into a negative balance) instead of £11.

Stu_of_Kunming

https://www.facebook.com/ychinamedia/videos/281415775788652/

letthegoodtimesroll

So now we’ve moved onto the subject, is the charlton season ticket capable of being loaded with cash ? It’s contactless in respect that you dont have to take it out of it’s wallet or open it up in any way and all you need to do is tap it at the gate to gain entry to the ground.

cafcfan

letthegoodtimesroll said:

So now we’ve moved onto the subject, is the charlton season ticket capable of being loaded with cash ? It’s contactless in respect that you dont have to take it out of it’s wallet or open it up in any way and all you need to do is tap it at the gate to gain entry to the ground.

Assuming it hasn't changed since I last had one, it is not "contactless": it is not "smart". It just has a code printed on it (bar or QR can't remember which) that the machine recognises with a scanner. There is no facility to load it with anything.
In that regard, it is no different from a tin of beans.

letthegoodtimesroll

cafcfan said:

letthegoodtimesroll said:

So now we’ve moved onto the subject, is the charlton season ticket capable of being loaded with cash ? It’s contactless in respect that you dont have to take it out of it’s wallet or open it up in any way and all you need to do is tap it at the gate to gain entry to the ground.

Assuming it hasn't changed since I last had one, it is not "contactless": it is not "smart". It just has a code printed on it (bar or QR can't remember which) that the machine recognises with a scanner. There is no facility to load it with anything.
In that regard, it is no different from a tin of beans.

It has a barcode which you can scan but I never use that. I don’t unfold the plastic cover, I simply tap it on the front of the box at the gate, as I would my travel card at a railway or underground station, and it gives you entry. There must be something embedded within the card.

Hastingsaddick

Duncan270566 said:

AFKABartram said:

I’m tapping contactless more and more, which is a shame as most of my savings for kids trips / holidays are built up from collecting £2 and 20p coins in my change

More and more people are doing so on public transport and as a direct effect TfL are considering doing away with the Oystercard already. However, we are also hearing more and more excuses such as "I've left my debit/credit card at home", "My phone's out of battery" or "My contactless has stopped working" as reasons to try and bunk their fare.

Hope TFL don't do away with Oyster, me and Mrs H have over 40 quid on our 2 cards.

sam3110

The main problem of a cashless society is the lack of tips in the hospitality and services industry, if everything you buy is under 30£ and you tap the card there is never an add tip facility, and people just don't carry around cash anymore. This may not sound like much, but for many working these jobs tips and service charge are the difference between which side of the "bread line" they fall

JaShea99

Is that really the main problem?

Rothko

Hastingsaddick said:

Duncan270566 said:

AFKABartram said:

I’m tapping contactless more and more, which is a shame as most of my savings for kids trips / holidays are built up from collecting £2 and 20p coins in my change

More and more people are doing so on public transport and as a direct effect TfL are considering doing away with the Oystercard already. However, we are also hearing more and more excuses such as "I've left my debit/credit card at home", "My phone's out of battery" or "My contactless has stopped working" as reasons to try and bunk their fare.

Hope TFL don't do away with Oyster, me and Mrs H have over 40 quid on our 2 cards.

Oyster will be gone to the majority of people in the next 5 years, contactless is cheaper for them to maintain and run.

StigThundercock

The original article is predicated on 2 fundamental assumptions: the use of cash as a means of negotiation is to be removed as an option and that the information that can be harvested from our payment-card usage is only being used maliciously or cynically.
Both propositions are patently ludicrous.

Hastingsaddick

Rothko said:

Hastingsaddick said:

Duncan270566 said:

AFKABartram said:

I’m tapping contactless more and more, which is a shame as most of my savings for kids trips / holidays are built up from collecting £2 and 20p coins in my change

More and more people are doing so on public transport and as a direct effect TfL are considering doing away with the Oystercard already. However, we are also hearing more and more excuses such as "I've left my debit/credit card at home", "My phone's out of battery" or "My contactless has stopped working" as reasons to try and bunk their fare.

Hope TFL don't do away with Oyster, me and Mrs H have over 40 quid on our 2 cards.

Oyster will be gone to the majority of people in the next 5 years, contactless is cheaper for them to maintain and run.

Genuine question....how is contactless cheaper then Oyster....surely the journey cost is the same whatever way you pay.

Hastingsaddick

Hastingsaddick said:

Rothko said:

Hastingsaddick said:

Duncan270566 said:

AFKABartram said:

I’m tapping contactless more and more, which is a shame as most of my savings for kids trips / holidays are built up from collecting £2 and 20p coins in my change

More and more people are doing so on public transport and as a direct effect TfL are considering doing away with the Oystercard already. However, we are also hearing more and more excuses such as "I've left my debit/credit card at home", "My phone's out of battery" or "My contactless has stopped working" as reasons to try and bunk their fare.

Hope TFL don't do away with Oyster, me and Mrs H have over 40 quid on our 2 cards.

Oyster will be gone to the majority of people in the next 5 years, contactless is cheaper for them to maintain and run.

Genuine question....how is contactless cheaper then Oyster....surely the journey cost is the same whatever way you pay.

OK see what your saying the actual system (contactless) is cheaper.

DaveMehmet

I have to buy paper season tickets because I use the DLR and as they don't have barriers, I can't trust myself to always remember to tap in & out. Not only do they charge you full whack if you forget to tap out, you run the risk of getting fined for a genuine mistake/oversight if you haven't tapped in.

iaitch

You can always get a refund via the TFL website for these instances.

Alwaysneil

I used to forget but after the first few tones of getting full daily care for a short distance I find I’ve got into the habit of tap in out even where there are no barriers

Dazzler21

Ormiston Addick said:

I got pick-pocketed in Paris in July in the middle of our European holiday.

We basically had to live on cash for the rest of the trip and it was a nightmare, you need credit cards for everything these days!

I don't have a single credit card and never had so need is definitely not the correct word.

Covered End

Hastingsaddick said:

Duncan270566 said:

AFKABartram said:

I’m tapping contactless more and more, which is a shame as most of my savings for kids trips / holidays are built up from collecting £2 and 20p coins in my change

More and more people are doing so on public transport and as a direct effect TfL are considering doing away with the Oystercard already. However, we are also hearing more and more excuses such as "I've left my debit/credit card at home", "My phone's out of battery" or "My contactless has stopped working" as reasons to try and bunk their fare.

Hope TFL don't do away with Oyster, me and Mrs H have over 40 quid on our 2 cards.

Get them refunded at any Underground machine. Literally took 1 minute.

Stu_of_Kunming

StigThundercock said:

The original article is predicated on 2 fundamental assumptions: the use of cash as a means of negotiation is to be removed as an option and that the information that can be harvested from our payment-card usage is only being used maliciously or cynically.
Both propositions are patently ludicrous.

Have a read about China's 'social credit scoring' system, which is only possible due to cashless payments.

clive

The limit on a single payment using contactless card technology will rise to £100 later this year, the Treasury has confirmed.

The pandemic has accelerated a move away from cash, with shoppers often being encouraged to use contactless in many stores for public health reasons.

It has been less than a year since the limit was raised from £30 to £45.

Regulators say businesses could still decide themselves whether to accept the higher limit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56263582

Rothko

The banks aren't happy about this, the fraud risk jumps. Suspect they'll set limits on the amount you can do on contactless, so you hit x amount and then you'll be forced to do a chip and pin transaction to reset your contactless limit 

Big_Bad_World

Rarely use cashless (actually detest it). Cash is king for me. Always ask at shops if they're taking cash. Most independents I've dealt with still prefer cash so try and always use it where possible.

DaveMehmet

The only time I can remember using use cash in the last few months is when paying the window cleaner.