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VAR - are you a fan?

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    The idea is good but the way they use it is crap .. learn from cricket ...... ref makes a call then that should be it he should not have any more to do with the outcome .... give each team 3 appeals and the captain makes the call to the ref ..
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    edited June 2021


    How is this offside?
    The goalscorer is behind the teammate, who passes the ball.

    Have a look at 4:00

    https://youtu.be/umbKHUcSPos
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    Danepak said:


    How is this offside?
    The goalscorer is behind the teammate, who passes the ball.

    Have a look at 4:00

    https://youtu.be/umbKHUcSPos
    Erm it’s because the teammate was offside from the previous pass..?
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    And once again without the massive red line drawn on. The way the grass is cut at the twelve yard line makes this one pretty obviously offside.


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    Would be pretty obvious if the ball wasn't so far away from the player's foot, that's a huge problem for me with VAR, they want to measure players to the MM, but the technology doesn't seem good enough to ensure they grab the EXACT moment the ball is passed.
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    Would be pretty obvious if the ball wasn't so far away from the player's foot, that's a huge problem for me with VAR, they want to measure players to the MM, but the technology doesn't seem good enough to ensure they grab the EXACT moment the ball is passed.
    That’s the earliest I could pause the replay from the YouTube video, unfortunately the ball had already left the foot like you say. Of course the VAR will have a better replays available than what was provided on YouTube.
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    Would be pretty obvious if the ball wasn't so far away from the player's foot, that's a huge problem for me with VAR, they want to measure players to the MM, but the technology doesn't seem good enough to ensure they grab the EXACT moment the ball is passed.
    That’s the earliest I could pause the replay from the YouTube video, unfortunately the ball had already left the foot like you say. Of course the VAR will have a better replays available than what was provided on YouTube.
     Better, yes. Good enough? Apparently not.
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    edited June 2021
    Danepak said:
    https://youtu.be/9UajPqfFwps

    The commentators only talk about the 2nd pass, so I assume that there were no issues with the first pass (still annoying that the producers couldn’t show the exact moment).

    Nevertheless, we agree to disagree.

    In my opinion, VAR has killed football. I still absolutely love football, but my love for the game is lower than it was pre-VAR.
    It’s hard to score a goal in football. It’s not like basketball, where you score 40-50 times per game.
    Here, you often only see one goal, which makes it very very special. It could be the winner. And to take that joy away from the fans - that instant joy out of the goal celebration, as you know VAR need to check it from all sorts of different angles (often where it can take minutes) - I’m just failing to see the positives.
    Refs makes mistakes. This is part of the beauty of the game and what makes it something really really special.
    That part has now been removed once and for all. Such a shame.
    And when only 26% of fans supports it, do we really want it?

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2021/jun/02/var-given-thumbs-down-by-fans-for-premier-league-study

    It can't have killed football if you still love it. What needs to happen is an evolution into something less intrusive. As I have said in previous posts, the starting point to this has to be fairer rather than perfection which was an issue in football before VAR was introduced.

    An example is the handball law. It used to be a matter of fact interpretation by the ref whether there was intent or not. Then it got all convoluted to provide consistency and we have seen ridiculous decisions where there was clearly no intent. The authorities tried to find consistency but that can't work. If there is or was an issue with refs making weird decisions, the solution was and still is better training and those with poor judgement probably aren't cut out to be refs.

    I recall when I managed the season before last and one of my players attempted a long clearance from inside our area with nobody near him. He hit a virtual air shot just touching the ball which bounced up and hit his right arm outstretched in a natural position for a clearance like that. I spoke to the ref about it at half time making the point that there surely couldn't be intent as Messi or Ronaldo couldn't pull off such a trick and there was no advantage to doing so anyway.

    He seemed totally confused, and told me he had received guidance that it was a handball despite admitting there was no intent. I know he wasn't an FA Premier League or EFL ref, but it illustrates all the confusion around what should have be quite a simple law and I don't think we still have a handle on it although things have improved. He had decided there was no intent but was confused and was an experienced ref for the level. 

    VAR can be made to work but needs toning down a few notches. Giving the team appeals - I would only give them one for key decisions that they keep if proven right - would surely help prevent injustices and not get used unless the team thinks a clear error has been made as it would be a precious asset they wouldn't want to waste.
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    The current handball rule is immensely preferable to asking the ref to determine whether or not there was intent. Just as it was always ridiculous to ask the ref if there was intent in the event of a foul. If a defender is running after an attacker and accidentally clips and trips the attacker it is a foul because it is the defenders responsibility to avoid such ‘accidents’. 

    One of the primary objectives of the evolution of the laws is the removal of interpretation as much as is possible. And that is a good thing.

    The idea that VAR is killing football is a joke. The increasing use of technology in elite sports over the last decade has not impacted the popularity or integrity of any of the sports that use it in the slightest. What is so special about football apart from a large number of supporters who seem to look back at the 70s and 80s with rose tinted spectacles. An era of shit grounds, shit pitches and shit football.
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    The current handball rule is immensely preferable to asking the ref to determine whether or not there was intent. Just as it was always ridiculous to ask the ref if there was intent in the event of a foul. If a defender is running after an attacker and accidentally clips and trips the attacker it is a foul because it is the defenders responsibility to avoid such ‘accidents’. 

    One of the primary objectives of the evolution of the laws is the removal of interpretation as much as is possible. And that is a good thing.

    The idea that VAR is killing football is a joke. The increasing use of technology in elite sports over the last decade has not impacted the popularity or integrity of any of the sports that use it in the slightest. What is so special about football apart from a large number of supporters who seem to look back at the 70s and 80s with rose tinted spectacles. An era of shit grounds, shit pitches and shit football.
    The 70s and 80s were just different - you can't judge previous eras objectively. I enjoyed football then and now and not everything has got better.

    VAR is here and the clumsy way it has been introduced has not helped the game - it's very ponderous. Constant rule changes haven't helped either.

    I do find offsides to be OTT in the way they are judged and I think some of the handball decisions are ludicrous.

    I'd happily watch football without VAR and live with the mistakes. The game would be the same across the whole pyramid.

    I think as more money has entered the game it has become more joyless.
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    I do not like VAR or the changes in rules that seem to have come along in tandem with it.

    It is not going to go away though.......so I think that they just need to review both and how / when it is to be used.

    I like the original understanding that that it is there to eradicate clear and obvious errors. To me - this means that you should be able to time box the review system (say 30 secs maximum from review start to decision). If you are taking longer than this to review any contentious decision - then any mistake cannot be clear and obvious IMO.
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    The current handball rule is immensely preferable to asking the ref to determine whether or not there was intent. Just as it was always ridiculous to ask the ref if there was intent in the event of a foul. If a defender is running after an attacker and accidentally clips and trips the attacker it is a foul because it is the defenders responsibility to avoid such ‘accidents’. 

    One of the primary objectives of the evolution of the laws is the removal of interpretation as much as is possible. And that is a good thing.

    The idea that VAR is killing football is a joke. The increasing use of technology in elite sports over the last decade has not impacted the popularity or integrity of any of the sports that use it in the slightest. What is so special about football apart from a large number of supporters who seem to look back at the 70s and 80s with rose tinted spectacles. An era of shit grounds, shit pitches and shit football.
    But if a defender has fallen to the ground in the penalty area, a forward cannot just trip over him and claim a penalty? In this case, referees will always use their judgement about why the defender is in the way.

    For me VAR has been imported from other sports (like Golden Goal - remember how good that was going to be!) without thought for how best to implement the concept in football.

    It's that thing - American football has timeouts, rolling substitutes - cricket has appeals - tennis has hawk-eye with appeals  - so we must do the same.

    For me,  VAR should just be a few extra officials watching videos and helping the ref in the same way the linesman does. The spectators shouldn't even know it's happening. Sometimes you may get a bit of confusion for a few seconds when a goal is scored but no more than that. 

    That's what football is and what's made it so popular all over the world!
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    edited June 2021
    The current handball rule is immensely preferable to asking the ref to determine whether or not there was intent. Just as it was always ridiculous to ask the ref if there was intent in the event of a foul. If a defender is running after an attacker and accidentally clips and trips the attacker it is a foul because it is the defenders responsibility to avoid such ‘accidents’. 

    One of the primary objectives of the evolution of the laws is the removal of interpretation as much as is possible. And that is a good thing.

    The idea that VAR is killing football is a joke. The increasing use of technology in elite sports over the last decade has not impacted the popularity or integrity of any of the sports that use it in the slightest. What is so special about football apart from a large number of supporters who seem to look back at the 70s and 80s with rose tinted spectacles. An era of shit grounds, shit pitches and shit football.
    I think it isn't an unreasonable expectation to have that a ref can make an honest informed decision on a clear question like that. Of course they can't be taught mind reading but it is surely the same as them determining if there has been a foul or not. That is often a judgement call.
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    We've gone down the same route with VAR (and the same will happen in cricket with DRS) as we did with the backpass rule.

    We have forgotten the question that we are trying to answer.

    VAR (and DRS) should simply be about overturning any 'clear and obvious errors' by the referee or umpire.

    The question is not 'was the player offside?' or 'did the ball cross the line?' ... it is 'did the referee make a clear and obvious error?'

    So, as soon as the decision is borderline, or when it requires several re-runs of the technology, the question is answered ... no, the referee did not make a clear and obvious error (because several re-runs of the technology still leaves us unsure).  Therefore, the referee's original decision (even if it was incorrect in pure scientific terms) should stand.

    So, next time VAR agonises over whether a player was offside due to an itinerant fingertip, let's stop it there.  It was borderline, so the referee did not make a clear and obvious error ... so the original decision stands.

    It ain't difficult.

    Anyone remember why the backpass rule was introduced?
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    At Italia 1990, players effectively learnt to finish the game twenty minutes early by simply passing between defenders and the goalie. Losing team couldn't get the ball back into play however hard they tried.
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    I recall going to watch Cesena v Torino in Serie A around that time and it was a great game up until 10 minutes to go. 2-2 with Silas making his debut for Cesena and scoring a cracker. The game was there to be won and was poised for a great ending. All the fans started leaving around us. Little did we know the culture was to accept the draw at that point.

    I watched a good lower league game is Spain involving Torrevajeva with my brother in law who lived out there. It was well fought and clean 1-1. My brother told me that as the refs got paid by the bookings and red cards we would see some at the end, even if the game was clean. With 20 minutes to go, we saw loads.

    It is the same game, but can be so different.
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    At Italia 1990, players effectively learnt to finish the game twenty minutes early by simply passing between defenders and the goalie. Losing team couldn't get the ball back into play however hard they tried.
    Good answer.

    I will summarise that as 'time-wasting', if I may.  The backpass rule was introduced to avoid blatant time-wasting.

    Let's bear that in mind next time someone screams for a free-kick when the ball screws off a defender's knee, loops back over his head and then the goalkeeper picks it up.
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    Danepak said:
    https://youtu.be/9UajPqfFwps

    The commentators only talk about the 2nd pass, so I assume that there were no issues with the first pass (still annoying that the producers couldn’t show the exact moment).

    Nevertheless, we agree to disagree.

    In my opinion, VAR has killed football. I still absolutely love football, but my love for the game is lower than it was pre-VAR.
    It’s hard to score a goal in football. It’s not like basketball, where you score 40-50 times per game.
    Here, you often only see one goal, which makes it very very special. It could be the winner. And to take that joy away from the fans - that instant joy out of the goal celebration, as you know VAR need to check it from all sorts of different angles (often where it can take minutes) - I’m just failing to see the positives.
    Refs makes mistakes. This is part of the beauty of the game and what makes it something really really special.
    That part has now been removed once and for all. Such a shame.
    And when only 26% of fans supports it, do we really want it?

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2021/jun/02/var-given-thumbs-down-by-fans-for-premier-league-study

    This kills football. 

    Nothing more beautiful than being relegated because a thrown in is given the wrong way. Such a great sense of justice. 
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    edited June 2021
    Would be pretty obvious if the ball wasn't so far away from the player's foot, that's a huge problem for me with VAR, they want to measure players to the MM, but the technology doesn't seem good enough to ensure they grab the EXACT moment the ball is passed.
    That’s the earliest I could pause the replay from the YouTube video, unfortunately the ball had already left the foot like you say. Of course the VAR will have a better replays available than what was provided on YouTube.
     Better, yes. Good enough? Apparently not.
    Here’s how I would personally eliminate the “exact frame” issue. 

    Take two frames, ideally back to back. One from just before the ball is kicked and one from just after the ball is kicked. Logic would follow that the “exact moment” the ball is kicked sits between these frames.

    If there is ambiguity on either of these before & after images, it’s not offside. Eliminate the drawn lines, let the ref use their own eyes to determine between the two pictures provided.
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    edited June 2021
    Would be pretty obvious if the ball wasn't so far away from the player's foot, that's a huge problem for me with VAR, they want to measure players to the MM, but the technology doesn't seem good enough to ensure they grab the EXACT moment the ball is passed.
    That’s the earliest I could pause the replay from the YouTube video, unfortunately the ball had already left the foot like you say. Of course the VAR will have a better replays available than what was provided on YouTube.
     Better, yes. Good enough? Apparently not.
    Here’s how I would eliminate the “exact frame” issue. 

    Take two frames, ideally back to back. One from just before the ball is kicked and one from just after the ball is kicked. If there is ambiguity on either of these two images, it’s not offside. Eliminate the drawn lines, let the ref use their own eyes to determine that between the pictures provided.
    I think that is a good suggestion. An adaptation to the laws based on an acceptance of the technology.
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    Danepak said:
    https://youtu.be/9UajPqfFwps

    The commentators only talk about the 2nd pass, so I assume that there were no issues with the first pass (still annoying that the producers couldn’t show the exact moment).

    Nevertheless, we agree to disagree.

    In my opinion, VAR has killed football. I still absolutely love football, but my love for the game is lower than it was pre-VAR.
    It’s hard to score a goal in football. It’s not like basketball, where you score 40-50 times per game.
    Here, you often only see one goal, which makes it very very special. It could be the winner. And to take that joy away from the fans - that instant joy out of the goal celebration, as you know VAR need to check it from all sorts of different angles (often where it can take minutes) - I’m just failing to see the positives.
    Refs makes mistakes. This is part of the beauty of the game and what makes it something really really special.
    That part has now been removed once and for all. Such a shame.
    And when only 26% of fans supports it, do we really want it?

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2021/jun/02/var-given-thumbs-down-by-fans-for-premier-league-study

    This kills football. 

    Nothing more beautiful than being relegated because a thrown in is given the wrong way. Such a great sense of justice. 
    No-one, not even Charlton, has ever been relegated by a throw in given the wrong way.

    Against Fulham one year there was an incorrect decision awarded which led to an outcome which contributed to our relegation - a relegation that was the result of poor performance across a whole season.

    What kills football (or is killing football at the top level in England) is VAR.

    Players say so, managers say so, pundits say so, the vast majority of fans say so. 

    Bin it.
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    Would be pretty obvious if the ball wasn't so far away from the player's foot, that's a huge problem for me with VAR, they want to measure players to the MM, but the technology doesn't seem good enough to ensure they grab the EXACT moment the ball is passed.
    That’s the earliest I could pause the replay from the YouTube video, unfortunately the ball had already left the foot like you say. Of course the VAR will have a better replays available than what was provided on YouTube.
     Better, yes. Good enough? Apparently not.
    Here’s how I would eliminate the “exact frame” issue. 

    Take two frames, ideally back to back. One from just before the ball is kicked and one from just after the ball is kicked. If there is ambiguity on either of these two images, it’s not offside. Eliminate the drawn lines, let the ref use their own eyes to determine that between the pictures provided.
    I think that is a good suggestion. An adaptation to the laws based on an acceptance of the technology.
    I’m sure there are still issues with it but my simple brain can’t find them at the moment.

    By adding the “before” frame to the mix, it will also allow the attacking teams the benefit of the doubt on marginal decisions that some fans think has been lost.
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    Would be pretty obvious if the ball wasn't so far away from the player's foot, that's a huge problem for me with VAR, they want to measure players to the MM, but the technology doesn't seem good enough to ensure they grab the EXACT moment the ball is passed.
    That’s the earliest I could pause the replay from the YouTube video, unfortunately the ball had already left the foot like you say. Of course the VAR will have a better replays available than what was provided on YouTube.
     Better, yes. Good enough? Apparently not.
    Here’s how I would eliminate the “exact frame” issue. 

    Take two frames, ideally back to back. One from just before the ball is kicked and one from just after the ball is kicked. If there is ambiguity on either of these two images, it’s not offside. Eliminate the drawn lines, let the ref use their own eyes to determine that between the pictures provided.
    I think that is a good suggestion. An adaptation to the laws based on an acceptance of the technology.
    I’m sure there are still issues with it but my simple brain can’t find them at the moment.

    By adding the “before” frame to the mix, it will also allow the attacking teams the benefit of the doubt on marginal decisions that some fans think has been lost.
    Solutions are often simple. There will be loads trying to pick holes in what you have suggested but I think it would work. 
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    Danepak said:
    https://youtu.be/9UajPqfFwps

    The commentators only talk about the 2nd pass, so I assume that there were no issues with the first pass (still annoying that the producers couldn’t show the exact moment).

    Nevertheless, we agree to disagree.

    In my opinion, VAR has killed football. I still absolutely love football, but my love for the game is lower than it was pre-VAR.
    It’s hard to score a goal in football. It’s not like basketball, where you score 40-50 times per game.
    Here, you often only see one goal, which makes it very very special. It could be the winner. And to take that joy away from the fans - that instant joy out of the goal celebration, as you know VAR need to check it from all sorts of different angles (often where it can take minutes) - I’m just failing to see the positives.
    Refs makes mistakes. This is part of the beauty of the game and what makes it something really really special.
    That part has now been removed once and for all. Such a shame.
    And when only 26% of fans supports it, do we really want it?

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2021/jun/02/var-given-thumbs-down-by-fans-for-premier-league-study

    This kills football. 

    Nothing more beautiful than being relegated because a thrown in is given the wrong way. Such a great sense of justice. 
    Basing a relegation throughout 38 games of football based on 1 incorrect decision in a game at the end of the season. Lol.

    I can guarantee you without even looking back on that season we would have picked up a point or 3 from scoring from an offside position, incorrect call for a foul, wrongly awarded corner/throw.
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    Danepak said:
    https://youtu.be/9UajPqfFwps

    The commentators only talk about the 2nd pass, so I assume that there were no issues with the first pass (still annoying that the producers couldn’t show the exact moment).

    Nevertheless, we agree to disagree.

    In my opinion, VAR has killed football. I still absolutely love football, but my love for the game is lower than it was pre-VAR.
    It’s hard to score a goal in football. It’s not like basketball, where you score 40-50 times per game.
    Here, you often only see one goal, which makes it very very special. It could be the winner. And to take that joy away from the fans - that instant joy out of the goal celebration, as you know VAR need to check it from all sorts of different angles (often where it can take minutes) - I’m just failing to see the positives.
    Refs makes mistakes. This is part of the beauty of the game and what makes it something really really special.
    That part has now been removed once and for all. Such a shame.
    And when only 26% of fans supports it, do we really want it?

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2021/jun/02/var-given-thumbs-down-by-fans-for-premier-league-study

    This kills football. 

    Nothing more beautiful than being relegated because a thrown in is given the wrong way. Such a great sense of justice. 
    Would you like the use of VAR to be extended, so they can overrule on throw ins given to the wrong team?
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    edited June 2021
    I reffed a game in an emergency and the thing that struck me was how difficult it was to get decisions right? Was it a foul or a strong challenge. Was it six of one and half a dozen of the other? Whatever you decide in the moment, you will have players coming up and questioning you. And I was doubting I had made the right call and your instinct is to even up the next decision you are not sure about. And when I was unsure, the team that called for it with the most conviction often got the decision I had to make in the moment! It wasn't cheating, it was confusion on my part.

    I appreciate I was a poor ref, but when I played after that experience I called for so much I was generally spoken to and told to shut up by refs. I probably ended up calling for too much in all honesty which made things worse for us. 

    When I managed I had to ref a game again a couple of years back in an emergency. I did it much better because I just called it as I saw it and it didn't bother me if I got it wrong or not. When players had a go, it was water off a ducks back. I just tried to do it as honestly as I could. I even admitted I may have got it wrong but I gave the decision in good faith and they just had to accept it. I did see a player trip himself up in the area from a corner and different players kept having a go at me being blind etc... I thought that was interesting as that was one decision I got 100% right.
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