Do away with the lines - If you are resorting to using lines, then it isn't clear and obvious.
VAR is making the game sterile
But your making the assumption that every decision is going to be the same. Whats clear and obvious to you, isnt going to C&O to a Liverpool fan for example, because its so ambiguous
Regardless of what happens, using VAR or not... there are still going to be those who are unhappy when decisions going against them - Could be argued that we got into this VAR mess, because people were getting fed up with the mistakes on the field so a solution had to be found... e.g. What we've got now.
The one aspect no one even considered was the fact that there are too many Grey rules in the Sport, its a game of opinions, and unless we can teach robots to officiate games perfectly and without error, there will always the element of Human Error, regardless of where the referee is from.
I bet as well, there would have been the exact same type of outrage had this been a decade ago, with the Coventry player, a yard onside and the linesman making the wrong call by raising his flag.
Do you think the game is more fluid with the introduction of VAR?
As you point out, the game is so amibigous so why have the powers that be gone down the precise mathematical route of enforcing laws that are still open to opinion by a human?
Thought the Coventry player was offside and VAR got it right under 'the slide rule knows best' way things are judged.
But there were some very dodgy calls in the Everton/Forest game. The Luton fan accusation stuff is daft, the better result for Luton was for Forest to grab a draw...but at least two of the three calls were wrong. The 'handball' is a penalty call in other games this season particularly as the player's arm stopped a cross. The last 'tackle' was a stonewall penalty and the ref should have been called to the screen. VAR officials are not bias but are incompetent and inconsistent.
What happened: Coventry City thought they had scored an incredible 121st-minute winner against Manchester United, with the Sky Blues fans at Wembley sent into delirium. However, it became clear upon the first replay that Haji Wright may be offside before he set up Victor Torp for the goal.
VAR decision: Goal disallowed.
VAR review: It's the worst of VAR, the kind of situation which makes it so difficult for fans to get on board -- stripping away a fairy-tale moment which would have lived on in the annals of FA Cup history forever. To all intents and purposes it never even happened.
It looked like Wright would be offside by a clear margin when the ball was played forward, yet it was much closer. In fact it was millimetres from the tolerance level, or benefit of the doubt, when the attacking and defensive lines are touching.
The gap between the lines is so small it's barely noticeable; a single green line would have been displayed if they were touching.
Offside has to start somewhere with technology, and whatever you do there will always be marginal calls.
The graphic was called into question due to the position of the line to defender's boot, though it's slightly misleading as the foot was in the air meaning there's also a vertical line down to the ground, making the blue line appear thicker.
Semi-automated offside technology (SAOT), which will be introduced early into next season, will help with the visualisation of decisions, creating a computer-generated graphic which swings in line with the players and identifies exactly which part of the attacker is offside.
It won't stop these marginal decisions, and in fact is likely to increase them as the tolerance level -- which exists to account for inconsistencies in identifying the kick-point and plot points on the players -- is removed.
Italy's Serie A has seen less general controversy over offside decisions since it introduced SAOT in January 2023, with the frustration reserved for the times the graphic displays a very marginal offside.
Liverpool's third goal at Fulham on Sunday provides the perfect example. Diogo Jota broke through the offside trap to score, with the assistant keeping their flag down. The technology produced a single green line, so Jota needed the tolerance level for goal to stand. Next season with SAOT this goal would most likely be disallowed.
What happened: Coventry City thought they had scored an incredible 121st-minute winner against Manchester United, with the Sky Blues fans at Wembley sent into delirium. However, it became clear upon the first replay that Haji Wright may be offside before he set up Victor Torp for the goal.
VAR decision: Goal disallowed.
VAR review: It's the worst of VAR, the kind of situation which makes it so difficult for fans to get on board -- stripping away a fairy-tale moment which would have lived on in the annals of FA Cup history forever. To all intents and purposes it never even happened.
It looked like Wright would be offside by a clear margin when the ball was played forward, yet it was much closer. In fact it was millimetres from the tolerance level, or benefit of the doubt, when the attacking and defensive lines are touching.
The gap between the lines is so small it's barely noticeable; a single green line would have been displayed if they were touching.
Offside has to start somewhere with technology, and whatever you do there will always be marginal calls.
The graphic was called into question due to the position of the line to defender's boot, though it's slightly misleading as the foot was in the air meaning there's also a vertical line down to the ground, making the blue line appear thicker.
Semi-automated offside technology (SAOT), which will be introduced early into next season, will help with the visualisation of decisions, creating a computer-generated graphic which swings in line with the players and identifies exactly which part of the attacker is offside.
It won't stop these marginal decisions, and in fact is likely to increase them as the tolerance level -- which exists to account for inconsistencies in identifying the kick-point and plot points on the players -- is removed.
Italy's Serie A has seen less general controversy over offside decisions since it introduced SAOT in January 2023, with the frustration reserved for the times the graphic displays a very marginal offside.
Liverpool's third goal at Fulham on Sunday provides the perfect example. Diogo Jota broke through the offside trap to score, with the assistant keeping their flag down. The technology produced a single green line, so Jota needed the tolerance level for goal to stand. Next season with SAOT this goal would most likely be disallowed.
This crap is a long, long, long way from the game I grew up loving.
Do away with the lines - If you are resorting to using lines, then it isn't clear and obvious.
VAR is making the game sterile
But your making the assumption that every decision is going to be the same. Whats clear and obvious to you, isnt going to C&O to a Liverpool fan for example, because its so ambiguous
Regardless of what happens, using VAR or not... there are still going to be those who are unhappy when decisions going against them - Could be argued that we got into this VAR mess, because people were getting fed up with the mistakes on the field so a solution had to be found... e.g. What we've got now.
The one aspect no one even considered was the fact that there are too many Grey rules in the Sport, its a game of opinions, and unless we can teach robots to officiate games perfectly and without error, there will always the element of Human Error, regardless of where the referee is from.
I bet as well, there would have been the exact same type of outrage had this been a decade ago, with the Coventry player, a yard onside and the linesman making the wrong call by raising his flag.
Do you think the game is more fluid with the introduction of VAR?
As you point out, the game is so amibigous so why have the powers that be gone down the precise mathematical route of enforcing laws that are still open to opinion by a human?
Of course the game isn't as fluid with the introduction of VAR
As I pointed out though... Lets not pretend that there weren't endless calls prior to the introduction of VAR (Tennis uses the Technology... Why cant we blah blah blah), because fans were getting fed up with the bad calls. Unfortunately no one took into consideration that the Human element cannot be removed so hasn't changed anything.
As you mention, the best thing to do now, would be to remove VAR to allow the game to flow. But that would require everyone... Fans / Players / Management having to accept that it wont improve a thing, in terms of ensuring the correct call
Interestingly in El Classico last night, there was a Barça shot which the goalkeeper seemed to them to have parried behind the line. Only one image forthcoming, from behind the goalkeeper so absolutely no way of giving the goal or even seeing how close it was.But a bit unusual that in the prestige match of La Liga there wasn't more coverage available. Barcelona were hugely upset, but as these games always involve yelling at the ref to give everything to ones team (the same the world over) that's really not indicative of anything and the Barcelona manager Xavi was his usual self where 'the wold is against us' which removes any sympathy I might have felt. From his position on the bench, judging whether it went in would have been impossible, but we have the usual victimhood.
Interestingly in El Classico last night, there was a Barça shot which the goalkeeper seemed to them to have parried behind the line. Only one image forthcoming, from behind the goalkeeper so absolutely no way of giving the goal or even seeing how close it was.But a bit unusual that in the prestige match of La Liga there wasn't more coverage available. Barcelona were hugely upset, but as these games always involve yelling at the ref to give everything to ones team (the same the world over) that's really not indicative of anything and the Barcelona manager Xavi was his usual self where 'the wold is against us' which removes any sympathy I might have felt. From his position on the bench, judging whether it went in would have been impossible, but we have the usual victimhood.
Interestingly in El Classico last night, there was a Barça shot which the goalkeeper seemed to them to have parried behind the line. Only one image forthcoming, from behind the goalkeeper so absolutely no way of giving the goal or even seeing how close it was.But a bit unusual that in the prestige match of La Liga there wasn't more coverage available. Barcelona were hugely upset, but as these games always involve yelling at the ref to give everything to ones team (the same the world over) that's really not indicative of anything and the Barcelona manager Xavi was his usual self where 'the wold is against us' which removes any sympathy I might have felt. From his position on the bench, judging whether it went in would have been impossible, but we have the usual victimhood.
No goal line tech either
Not a good look when you think of the value of the players on the pitch. A lot of the Barcelona players were saying it was shameful that there wasn't the right technology, and given they have it all the major leagues, I think they have a point!
The 'magic' of the FA Cup all but left the building yesterday.
Thanks for the image. Where’s the offside? They’re in line, surely?
Also can they guarantee that's exactly when he touched the ball. If it had been a millisecond before, he may have been onside. Certainly not a perfect system
to me the question should be, does VAR make the game more or less enjoyable for fans. Overall an overwhelming no from those who attend games live. Personally not been to one where it has been used
The 'magic' of the FA Cup all but left the building yesterday.
Thanks for the image. Where’s the offside? They’re in line, surely?
I think they'd argue that the Man U boot is up to but not touching the line, whereas the Coventry boot is on the line. I believe that VAR operates at 50 frames per second or one photo each 0.02 of a second. I wonder if the result would differ if they took the focus to the photo preceding or following? At the end of the day a human takes the decision - I guess that's the weakness.
Do away with the lines - If you are resorting to using lines, then it isn't clear and obvious.
VAR is making the game sterile
But your making the assumption that every decision is going to be the same. Whats clear and obvious to you, isnt going to C&O to a Liverpool fan for example, because its so ambiguous
Regardless of what happens, using VAR or not... there are still going to be those who are unhappy when decisions going against them - Could be argued that we got into this VAR mess, because people were getting fed up with the mistakes on the field so a solution had to be found... e.g. What we've got now.
The one aspect no one even considered was the fact that there are too many Grey rules in the Sport, its a game of opinions, and unless we can teach robots to officiate games perfectly and without error, there will always the element of Human Error, regardless of where the referee is from.
I bet as well, there would have been the exact same type of outrage had this been a decade ago, with the Coventry player, a yard onside and the linesman making the wrong call by raising his flag.
Do you think the game is more fluid with the introduction of VAR?
As you point out, the game is so amibigous so why have the powers that be gone down the precise mathematical route of enforcing laws that are still open to opinion by a human?
Of course the game isn't as fluid with the introduction of VAR
As I pointed out though... Lets not pretend that there weren't endless calls prior to the introduction of VAR (Tennis uses the Technology... Why cant we blah blah blah), because fans were getting fed up with the bad calls. Unfortunately no one took into consideration that the Human element cannot be removed so hasn't changed anything.
As you mention, the best thing to do now, would be to remove VAR to allow the game to flow. But that would require everyone... Fans / Players / Management having to accept that it wont improve a thing, in terms of ensuring the correct call
Well, plenty of people said this right from the start, like me and Off It. It simple doesn’t suit football.
Interestingly in El Classico last night, there was a Barça shot which the goalkeeper seemed to them to have parried behind the line. Only one image forthcoming, from behind the goalkeeper so absolutely no way of giving the goal or even seeing how close it was.But a bit unusual that in the prestige match of La Liga there wasn't more coverage available. Barcelona were hugely upset, but as these games always involve yelling at the ref to give everything to ones team (the same the world over) that's really not indicative of anything and the Barcelona manager Xavi was his usual self where 'the wold is against us' which removes any sympathy I might have felt. From his position on the bench, judging whether it went in would have been impossible, but we have the usual victimhood.
No goal line tech either
Not a good look when you think of the value of the players on the pitch. A lot of the Barcelona players were saying it was shameful that there wasn't the right technology, and given they have it all the major leagues, I think they have a point!
It is bizarre there's no goal line technology in one of the biggest leagues in the world but I have no doubt that's because clubs won't have stumped up the coin to pay for it. As with anything if the clubs had put up the money they'd have it in place by now.
Barcelona like every other club in La Liga have known all season there's no goal line technology, there's no point choosing to moan about it now 35 games into a season just because it's now directly affecting them. If they felt goal line technology was so fundamental to the integrity of the game as they are now arguing then they should have been arguing this months ago.
The ridiculous thing is nobody actually even knows if it was a goal or not, Barcelona are just staying if their investigations 'prove' it was a goal then they will be appealing. No doubt it their investigations are inconclusive they will be offering an unreserved apology.
The statement from Forest is also a disgrace, but we should expect no different from their owner who has form for this kind of thing in Greece. He would be much better reflecting on why he has cost his club a number of hard earned points by flouting FFP and bringing in 40 plus players (Most of whom can't even get in the squad). Anyone who knows the footballing situation in Greece should be very wary of us heading in the same direction which is where statements like the recent one have potential to lead us.
I must say I am absolutely sick of all the referee bashing nonsense we are seeing from clubs at the moment. Of course it is frustrating when decisions go against your team but that's part and parcel of football, it has always been the case and always will be no matter how much technology is in place. This delusion about technology being the answer is just that, a delusion. I look forward to semi automated offsides and clubs questioning the allegiance of the software developers who helped make it.
To be fair to Forest it isn't just them this season, but a whole host of clubs who are acting like petulant children the second a decision goes against them and threatening to take their ball and go home. If we are genuinely beginning to question appointments of referees based on who they might support we may as well all pack it in and go home now. Where does that stop? Should we take into account where Stuart Attwell's wife is born and stop him refereeing their games? What about his kids teacher? His best mates dad? It is nonsense.
Referee are human beings and make mistakes, just like a centre back who forgets to track his runner at a set piece and concedes a goal or the striker on 100k a week which skies a penalty from 12 yards. Managers don't come out criticizing their players when that happens or question their allegiance to other clubs, they accept it as part of the game and so we should with refereeing decisions.
Whatever way you look at it. Forest were dicked out of 3 penalties
At least 2…..
At most 1 imo
The difference in our opinions just goes to show that if VAR has any chance of working it should be 2 challenges a match per manager.. Any successful challenge is counted as unused.
Additionally, VAR failed to overturn the penalty given to Coventry - should never have gone to extra time in first place.
So we agree that VAR does not work then 👍🏼
Although that is my subjective opinion on the penalty, others may feel otherwise.
With ball going over the line or attacker being offside, it yes or no.
Genuine question - do you think that the on field decision re the offside was a clear and obvious error?
Sorry @SuedeAdidas only just catching up with the thread
No I don't think this was a 'clear and obvious error', but that is not the criteria being judged here. It is a matter of fact if they were onside or offside.
If Charlton had a shot, that didn't look like it had gone over the line, but in fact the technology showed it had gone over the line, do you not want the goal to be awarded as it wasnt clear and obviously over the line ?
Additionally, the linesmen are told to keep their flag down when a close offside call, and the play will be reviewed later if they scored. Without VAR the lino may have flagged offside straight away..
In terms of the Forest penalties, I thought one of the three was a pen but the fact of the matter is there is a judgement to be made which is unavoidable. Some refs may deem a challenge not enough and you can't fix this through VAR. The problem with VAR and this applies to hand balls too is that it tries to.
As the person in the VAR room is a qualified ref, surely there is no need for the pitchside screen. If it is a matter of judgement, you go with the referee on the pitch and if it is 100% clear cut, you overrule him. You don't make the 'was it enough' decision in the VAR room as the minute you are asking that question it is a judgement which shouldn't be your job as the on pitch ref has already done that. An exception could be the on pitch ref says he did not see it clearly and invites VAR to make the decision.
We can argue about these sort of decisions after the game but that is unavoidable. I think how it works now is the ref sees it and decides at the end of the day, if there was or wasn't enough contact for the player to go down. So that is the decision, and where it all goes wrong is VAR looks at it and tells him, you may want to look at that again which must feel like them telling the ref he has got it wrong which is why he/she changes their decision every time. Then they invariably go against their feeling at the time. This is ridiculous IMO. Same with handball. The ref should decide intent to handle the ball or the handling player making themselves bigger with their arms and that line should be all there is in the laws of the game.
The battle was lost on this years ago. It's complete bullshit but it's here to stay. Some people think its "progress" and they have won. Well played. You must be very happy with yourselves.
I've had many battles on my soap box about many things, starting when I was 8 and telling a Vicar that the bible was full of lies; I was a polite kid so I probably said fibs!
VAR should've been the best things since slice bread but English Football always seems to screw up.
Video technology in Rugby, Cricket and especially Tennis has been a good thing in the main, yet Football rule makers decided that no sensible distance threshold would be used to give the benefit to the attacking team and managed to say a cigarette paper, that the attacker is ahead of the defender is offside; this totally goes against the rule that you are onside if level. Many other anomolies in the rule book.
I was definitely in the VAR was a good thing but Off_it has been consistent in his criticism and 'football innovations' do manage to score more own goals than Richard Dunn who amassed 10 in his Premier career; he also received 8 Red cards which was joint worse with Viera and Duncan Ferguson. Not a lot of people know that.
Has anyone seen a good, clear picture of the van der Venn offside yesterday in the NLD? I missed it on the big screen.
The only low-res image I've seen it looks ridiculously close and looks like VAR drew a line from Gabriel's foot, rather than his arse which was sticking out because he was crouching.
Comments
As you point out, the game is so amibigous so why have the powers that be gone down the precise mathematical route of enforcing laws that are still open to opinion by a human?
But there were some very dodgy calls in the Everton/Forest game. The Luton fan accusation stuff is daft, the better result for Luton was for Forest to grab a draw...but at least two of the three calls were wrong. The 'handball' is a penalty call in other games this season particularly as the player's arm stopped a cross. The last 'tackle' was a stonewall penalty and the ref should have been called to the screen. VAR officials are not bias but are incompetent and inconsistent.
Coventry 3-3 (pens 3-4) Man United
Possible offside: Wright on Torp goal
What happened: Coventry City thought they had scored an incredible 121st-minute winner against Manchester United, with the Sky Blues fans at Wembley sent into delirium. However, it became clear upon the first replay that Haji Wright may be offside before he set up Victor Torp for the goal.
VAR decision: Goal disallowed.
VAR review: It's the worst of VAR, the kind of situation which makes it so difficult for fans to get on board -- stripping away a fairy-tale moment which would have lived on in the annals of FA Cup history forever. To all intents and purposes it never even happened.
It looked like Wright would be offside by a clear margin when the ball was played forward, yet it was much closer. In fact it was millimetres from the tolerance level, or benefit of the doubt, when the attacking and defensive lines are touching.
The gap between the lines is so small it's barely noticeable; a single green line would have been displayed if they were touching.
Offside has to start somewhere with technology, and whatever you do there will always be marginal calls.
The graphic was called into question due to the position of the line to defender's boot, though it's slightly misleading as the foot was in the air meaning there's also a vertical line down to the ground, making the blue line appear thicker.
Semi-automated offside technology (SAOT), which will be introduced early into next season, will help with the visualisation of decisions, creating a computer-generated graphic which swings in line with the players and identifies exactly which part of the attacker is offside.
It won't stop these marginal decisions, and in fact is likely to increase them as the tolerance level -- which exists to account for inconsistencies in identifying the kick-point and plot points on the players -- is removed.
Italy's Serie A has seen less general controversy over offside decisions since it introduced SAOT in January 2023, with the frustration reserved for the times the graphic displays a very marginal offside.
Liverpool's third goal at Fulham on Sunday provides the perfect example. Diogo Jota broke through the offside trap to score, with the assistant keeping their flag down. The technology produced a single green line, so Jota needed the tolerance level for goal to stand. Next season with SAOT this goal would most likely be disallowed.
If you want more bad decisions, scrap VAR.
We had debate and bad decisions before VAR, we have the same with VAR.
As I pointed out though... Lets not pretend that there weren't endless calls prior to the introduction of VAR (Tennis uses the Technology... Why cant we blah blah blah), because fans were getting fed up with the bad calls. Unfortunately no one took into consideration that the Human element cannot be removed so hasn't changed anything.
As you mention, the best thing to do now, would be to remove VAR to allow the game to flow. But that would require everyone... Fans / Players / Management having to accept that it wont improve a thing, in terms of ensuring the correct call
If VAR didn't exist, would Utd fans be moaning that he's offside there? Maybe out of desperation but I doubt it.
Just crazy that they've decided to micro-zoom in order to disallow goals. Surely there's a middle ground.
Barcelona like every other club in La Liga have known all season there's no goal line technology, there's no point choosing to moan about it now 35 games into a season just because it's now directly affecting them. If they felt goal line technology was so fundamental to the integrity of the game as they are now arguing then they should have been arguing this months ago.
The ridiculous thing is nobody actually even knows if it was a goal or not, Barcelona are just staying if their investigations 'prove' it was a goal then they will be appealing. No doubt it their investigations are inconclusive they will be offering an unreserved apology.
The statement from Forest is also a disgrace, but we should expect no different from their owner who has form for this kind of thing in Greece. He would be much better reflecting on why he has cost his club a number of hard earned points by flouting FFP and bringing in 40 plus players (Most of whom can't even get in the squad). Anyone who knows the footballing situation in Greece should be very wary of us heading in the same direction which is where statements like the recent one have potential to lead us.
I must say I am absolutely sick of all the referee bashing nonsense we are seeing from clubs at the moment. Of course it is frustrating when decisions go against your team but that's part and parcel of football, it has always been the case and always will be no matter how much technology is in place. This delusion about technology being the answer is just that, a delusion. I look forward to semi automated offsides and clubs questioning the allegiance of the software developers who helped make it.
To be fair to Forest it isn't just them this season, but a whole host of clubs who are acting like petulant children the second a decision goes against them and threatening to take their ball and go home. If we are genuinely beginning to question appointments of referees based on who they might support we may as well all pack it in and go home now. Where does that stop? Should we take into account where Stuart Attwell's wife is born and stop him refereeing their games? What about his kids teacher? His best mates dad? It is nonsense.
Referee are human beings and make mistakes, just like a centre back who forgets to track his runner at a set piece and concedes a goal or the striker on 100k a week which skies a penalty from 12 yards. Managers don't come out criticizing their players when that happens or question their allegiance to other clubs, they accept it as part of the game and so we should with refereeing decisions.
The difference in our opinions just goes to show that if VAR has any chance of working it should be 2 challenges a match per manager.. Any successful challenge is counted as unused.
Everything else gets left unspoken about.
No I don't think this was a 'clear and obvious error', but that is not the criteria being judged here. It is a matter of fact if they were onside or offside.
If Charlton had a shot, that didn't look like it had gone over the line, but in fact the technology showed it had gone over the line, do you not want the goal to be awarded as it wasnt clear and obviously over the line ?
Additionally, the linesmen are told to keep their flag down when a close offside call, and the play will be reviewed later if they scored.
Without VAR the lino may have flagged offside straight away..
As the person in the VAR room is a qualified ref, surely there is no need for the pitchside screen. If it is a matter of judgement, you go with the referee on the pitch and if it is 100% clear cut, you overrule him. You don't make the 'was it enough' decision in the VAR room as the minute you are asking that question it is a judgement which shouldn't be your job as the on pitch ref has already done that. An exception could be the on pitch ref says he did not see it clearly and invites VAR to make the decision.
We can argue about these sort of decisions after the game but that is unavoidable. I think how it works now is the ref sees it and decides at the end of the day, if there was or wasn't enough contact for the player to go down. So that is the decision, and where it all goes wrong is VAR looks at it and tells him, you may want to look at that again which must feel like them telling the ref he has got it wrong which is why he/she changes their decision every time. Then they invariably go against their feeling at the time. This is ridiculous IMO. Same with handball. The ref should decide intent to handle the ball or the handling player making themselves bigger with their arms and that line should be all there is in the laws of the game.
https://www.espn.co.uk/football/story/_/id/40028253/swedish-fa-not-considering-var-clubs-raise-objections
I've had many battles on my soap box about many things, starting when I was 8 and telling a Vicar that the bible was full of lies; I was a polite kid so I probably said fibs!
VAR should've been the best things since slice bread but English Football always seems to screw up.
Video technology in Rugby, Cricket and especially Tennis has been a good thing in the main, yet Football rule makers decided that no sensible distance threshold would be used to give the benefit to the attacking team and managed to say a cigarette paper, that the attacker is ahead of the defender is offside; this totally goes against the rule that you are onside if level. Many other anomolies in the rule book.
I was definitely in the VAR was a good thing but Off_it has been consistent in his criticism and 'football innovations' do manage to score more own goals than Richard Dunn who amassed 10 in his Premier career; he also received 8 Red cards which was joint worse with Viera and Duncan Ferguson.
Not a lot of people know that.
I still believe holy books are bull shit !
I missed it on the big screen.
The only low-res image I've seen it looks ridiculously close and looks like VAR drew a line from Gabriel's foot, rather than his arse which was sticking out because he was crouching.