The length of time this has taken shows how complicated this is. In a normal court, that might favour Wednesday as the evidence can be too complicated. I assume the EFL have appointed an independent panel with the necessary skills to look at the evidence forensically. That may not be advantageous for Wednesday unless they have a strong defence.
I would worry as a Wednesday fan as their stated defence doesn't seem to be one that would take too long to consider. Was the EFL compliant in what they did or not? I can't see how the EFL would be as one of the things it has to worry about is setting precedents. What would worry me more as a Wednesday fan would be the length of time may be being used to uncover as much dirt as possible so they are absolutely hammered.
The amount of points deducted would seem to be the burning question. Will it be as little as 9 following what was imposed on Birmingham? Or are we looking at 12 which seems to be the standard for this infringement? Or is there the evidence to go even further as an example to others? I just can't see it being nothing the length of time it has taken.
Birmingham were deducted 9 points for breaching the FFP loss limit of 39m over a 3 year period.
Sheffield Wednesday would've lost over 50m in one season, were it not for this ground 'sale'.
So on the face of it surely they have to be deducted at least the 9 points as they would've failed FFP, plus an extra fine for the blatant financial misconduct to try and get away with it?
Maybe there is more to it though, as i'm sure we don't know all the facts and it's taken forever to get sorted.
Birmingham were deducted 9 points for breaching the FFP loss limit of 39m over a 3 year period.
Sheffield Wednesday would've lost over 50m in one season, were it not for this ground 'sale'.
So on the face of it surely they have to be deducted at least the 9 points as they would've failed FFP, plus an extra fine for the blatant financial misconduct to try and get away with it?
Maybe there is more to it though, as i'm sure we don't know all the facts and it's taken forever to get sorted.
I feel there must be more to it, as what we’re aware they’ve done is clearly a points deduction, so why has this been ongoing since November?
The hearing finished a week last Friday, so the findings should be imminent. Time is very much of the essence, given that the season finishes in less than two weeks.
If found guilty, Wednesday will certainly get the 9 points that Birmingham got and their alleged attempts to cover it up will be a serious aggravating factor. I'd have thought that they'd get a further points deduction of anything between 6 and 12 points for that depending upon the Tribunal's findings. Wednesday have also wriggled like hell on every issue, rather than making any attempt to narrow the issues, so they'll be no mitigation for any degree of cooperation (unlike Birmingham in one of their cases).
If they don’t want to automatically relegate them, the answer is easy, you set a precedent that any cheating of this form gets a hefty points deduction which will effectively relegate Wednesday this season without actually relegating them automatically.
Anything more than an -16 is a fairer deduction and will put them on the verge of relegation.
It will help deter clubs from doing this kind of thing in future if there is to be a significant points deduction.
Fail to do this, and they’re setting a very dangerous precedent going forward where more and more clubs will decide they can deliberately cheat and know they can get away with it.
I have a feeling they’ll get away with a small enough deduction that keeps them away from the bottom 3.
Also, there’s already a precedent where clubs can deliberately cheat and get away with it. We’ve seen many clubs get promoted from crossing ffp by a mile, and they never get punished. But I know what you mean, that if they get away with it, more teams will try this selling of ground to themselves idea.
The EFL effectively see a club as part of the Premier League the moment they win promotion so act in a way as though the club is already under a different governing body
Yup agreed, it’s not right though. Apart from QPR I cant think of another team that’s been punished upon relegation back to championship either. Presumably Villa are in trouble if they get relegated as they spent 175% of turnover last season on wages alone.
Bournemouth will also be in trouble if they get relegated.
One would hope so. 15 point deduction and welcome back card.
The EFL's primary motivation will be to avoid expensive litigation following the ruling. Whatever the 'punishmnent' is it isn't going to end up relegating them.
I believe part of the issue is that Sheff W claim that the EFL were consulted and agreed to this course of action. Also, it's more than possible that part of any point deduction would be suspended (in other words not happen).
Birmingham were deducted 9 points for breaching the FFP loss limit of 39m over a 3 year period.
Sheffield Wednesday would've lost over 50m in one season, were it not for this ground 'sale'.
So on the face of it surely they have to be deducted at least the 9 points as they would've failed FFP, plus an extra fine for the blatant financial misconduct to try and get away with it?
Maybe there is more to it though, as i'm sure we don't know all the facts and it's taken forever to get sorted.
Add in that the owner has created companies just to inject money by sponsoring the club. For example, a ‘taxi firm’ has an advert on the season tickets. No idea how much “they” put in, but is an example of the lengths the owner has gone to in order to cheat the system. They have done everything they can to cheat.
Also worth bearing in mind that Birmingham admitted they had done wrong which mitigated the penalty from 12 down to 9 points. SW have fought this all the way.
Mere points deductions is insufficient for me. The guidelines are that a penalty is 12 points, but the independent panel have the power to increase or mitigate. They can and should relegate them.
The hearing finished a week last Friday, so the findings should be imminent. Time is very much of the essence, given that the season finishes in less than two weeks.
If found guilty, Wednesday will certainly get the 9 points that Birmingham got and their alleged attempts to cover it up will be a serious aggravating factor. I'd have thought that they'd get a further points deduction of anything between 6 and 12 points for that depending upon the Tribunal's findings. Wednesday have also wriggled like hell on every issue, rather than making any attempt to narrow the issues, so they'll be no mitigation for any degree of cooperation (unlike Birmingham in one of their cases).
Agree with you, but this part worries me, my feeling they’ll get off free continues.
The hearing finished a week last Friday, so the findings should be imminent. Time is very much of the essence, given that the season finishes in less than two weeks.
If found guilty, Wednesday will certainly get the 9 points that Birmingham got and their alleged attempts to cover it up will be a serious aggravating factor. I'd have thought that they'd get a further points deduction of anything between 6 and 12 points for that depending upon the Tribunal's findings. Wednesday have also wriggled like hell on every issue, rather than making any attempt to narrow the issues, so they'll be no mitigation for any degree of cooperation (unlike Birmingham in one of their cases).
Even if SW are found guilty, there's no guarantee EFL will levy punishment to the maximum allowed. Birmingham were let off scot free for failing to comply with the terms of their previous punishment, they then appealed against their subsequent "conviction", that appeal was thrown out as baseless by the "independent" panel, opening the way for EFL to punish Brum further for wasting everybody's time but no, EFL looked at their feet, mumbled something quietly about 'don't do it again there's a good club' and 'it's all taken so long, blah blah bullshit'. EFL literally taking the piss out of itself. The time it has taken for EFL to deal with SW's cheerful malpractice is all part of their policy of only putting the boot into clubs that are already beyond help. SW have been a well funded club, they pay all their football bills reasonably promptly, EFL doesn't give a flying fornication about anyone or anything else. "Where's the harm if there was a bit of technical book cooking, which we probably knew about in advance anyway, move on next season starts in September."
Birmingham were deducted 9 points for breaching the FFP loss limit of 39m over a 3 year period.
Sheffield Wednesday would've lost over 50m in one season, were it not for this ground 'sale'.
So on the face of it surely they have to be deducted at least the 9 points as they would've failed FFP, plus an extra fine for the blatant financial misconduct to try and get away with it?
Maybe there is more to it though, as i'm sure we don't know all the facts and it's taken forever to get sorted.
Add in that the owner has created companies just to inject money by sponsoring the club. For example, a ‘taxi firm’ has an advert on the season tickets. No idea how much “they” put in, but is an example of the lengths the owner has gone to in order to cheat the system. They have done everything they can to cheat.
Also worth bearing in mind that Birmingham admitted they had done wrong which mitigated the penalty from 12 down to 9 points. SW have fought this all the way.
Mere points deductions is insufficient for me. The guidelines are that a penalty is 12 points, but the independent panel have the power to increase or mitigate. They can and should relegate them.
The 'taxi firm' still had adverts on the perimeter hoardings during our most recent game there before lockdown. Surely this cannot be acceptable.
Birmingham were deducted 9 points for breaching the FFP loss limit of 39m over a 3 year period.
Sheffield Wednesday would've lost over 50m in one season, were it not for this ground 'sale'.
So on the face of it surely they have to be deducted at least the 9 points as they would've failed FFP, plus an extra fine for the blatant financial misconduct to try and get away with it?
Maybe there is more to it though, as i'm sure we don't know all the facts and it's taken forever to get sorted.
Add in that the owner has created companies just to inject money by sponsoring the club. For example, a ‘taxi firm’ has an advert on the season tickets. No idea how much “they” put in, but is an example of the lengths the owner has gone to in order to cheat the system. They have done everything they can to cheat.
Also worth bearing in mind that Birmingham admitted they had done wrong which mitigated the penalty from 12 down to 9 points. SW have fought this all the way.
Mere points deductions is insufficient for me. The guidelines are that a penalty is 12 points, but the independent panel have the power to increase or mitigate. They can and should relegate them.
The taxi frim is hilarious as their adverts are all around the ground. DTaxis have no taxis!
Birmingham were deducted 9 points for breaching the FFP loss limit of 39m over a 3 year period.
Sheffield Wednesday would've lost over 50m in one season, were it not for this ground 'sale'.
So on the face of it surely they have to be deducted at least the 9 points as they would've failed FFP, plus an extra fine for the blatant financial misconduct to try and get away with it?
Maybe there is more to it though, as i'm sure we don't know all the facts and it's taken forever to get sorted.
Add in that the owner has created companies just to inject money by sponsoring the club. For example, a ‘taxi firm’ has an advert on the season tickets. No idea how much “they” put in, but is an example of the lengths the owner has gone to in order to cheat the system. They have done everything they can to cheat.
Also worth bearing in mind that Birmingham admitted they had done wrong which mitigated the penalty from 12 down to 9 points. SW have fought this all the way.
Mere points deductions is insufficient for me. The guidelines are that a penalty is 12 points, but the independent panel have the power to increase or mitigate. They can and should relegate them.
The taxi frim is hilarious as their adverts are all around the ground. DTaxis have no taxis!
These companies have put between six and seven figure sums into sponsoring Wednesday each year, yet the EFL do nothing about it.
Never knew this, but this is incredible that they can get away it.
Essentially it's the same (but on a lesser scale) as Man City being sponsored by a load of Abu Dhabi companies who are all in turn allegedly given some or most of the money back by Sheikh Mansour.
I believe part of the issue is that Sheff W claim that the EFL were consulted and agreed to this course of action. Also, it's more than possible that part of any point deduction would be suspended (in other words not happen).
The EFL might have agreed that the sale of the ground could go ahead, but I doubt they agreed to it being put into the previous years accounts and BEFORE the company that bought the ground was set up. That is fraudulent.
I am not sure I read this right. A taxi firm with no taxis put money into Sheffield Wednesday over a few years in order to get round awkward rules? Is it a bit like a person paying £500,000 to Charlton for a marchday meal and only getting a cheese sandwich. No pickle.
I am not sure I read this right. A taxi firm with no taxis put money into Sheffield Wednesday over a few years in order to get round awkward rules? Is it a bit like a person paying £500,000 to Charlton for a marchday meal and only getting a cheese sandwich. No pickle.
No taxi's, no office, no drivers, and when the number is dailed nobody answers. But sponsor the club to the tune of £ millions.
Even in your scenario Seth, at least you could say you got a sandwich, albeit an expensive one!
I am not sure I read this right. A taxi firm with no taxis put money into Sheffield Wednesday over a few years in order to get round awkward rules? Is it a bit like a person paying £500,000 to Charlton for a marchday meal and only getting a cheese sandwich. No pickle.
That’s it. If you google fake taxi, there is loads of Information for you to look at at your leisure
I am not sure I read this right. A taxi firm with no taxis put money into Sheffield Wednesday over a few years in order to get round awkward rules? Is it a bit like a person paying £500,000 to Charlton for a marchday meal and only getting a cheese sandwich. No pickle.
The Wednesday situation is out and out fraud. His defence appears to be that the EFL sanctioned the sale, therefore its them that's at fault (ie: they should have told him at the time he couldn't sell himself the ground) - but this is patent nonsense - the EFL rules DO permit that (much against the better judgement of some owners, like Steve Gibson for instance) but they don't require owners to release a financial statement prior to do so which shows their P&L for the past and current year (would obviously be nonsense as their accounts for the current year wouldn't be complete).
If they don't fine them an enormous amount and relegate them, I'd suggest every other club in the championship has a legal claim against the EFL for allowing Wednesday to game the FFP governance system in this manner. The path of least resistance would seem to be for the EFL to give them enough of a penalty to relegate them, and hope that Wednesday just accept it and go away. If they don't, they'll be in legislation for years - and even if they do, Barnsley might not just accept that punishment is sufficient and start making waves legally anyway.
Even a Wednesday season ticket holder that stood with us in the away end, joked that all the fans know it's just a con.
A Wednesday fan has a season ticket in the away end? Strange.
I know plenty of Man Utd fans with season tickets at Brighton or Palace. Not that strange if you no longer live near the club you support.
In contrast I worked with a guy who was born in and lived just outside Worthing. He had season tickets at Man City and Wigan. If City were at home he was there, if City were away and Wigan were at home he went there. If both were away he went to watch Crawley Town.
Even a Wednesday season ticket holder that stood with us in the away end, joked that all the fans know it's just a con.
A Wednesday fan has a season ticket in the away end? Strange.
I know plenty of Man Utd fans with season tickets at Brighton or Palace. Not that strange if you no longer live near the club you support.
In contrast I worked with a guy who was born in and lived just outside Worthing. He had season tickets at Man City and Wigan. If City were at home he was there, if City were away and Wigan were at home he went there. If both were away he went to watch Crawley Town.
(Sheff Weds) Whatever the 'punishmnent' is it isn't going to end up relegating them.
Okay, maybe I'm a bit slow on the uptake here ....... but could someone explain to me the purpose of deducting 9 or even 12 points, if it does not affect a club's status?
Surely a points deduction is only punishment if it relegates a club or denies it promotion?
Last season, Birmingham were deducted 9 points. They dropped a few places in the table - but it made no significant impact on their season. None.
Even a Wednesday season ticket holder that stood with us in the away end, joked that all the fans know it's just a con.
A Wednesday fan has a season ticket in the away end? Strange.
I know plenty of Man Utd fans with season tickets at Brighton or Palace. Not that strange if you no longer live near the club you support.
In contrast I worked with a guy who was born in and lived just outside Worthing. He had season tickets at Man City and Wigan. If City were at home he was there, if City were away and Wigan were at home he went there. If both were away he went to watch Crawley Town.
Proper weirdo.
Have you been to Worthing?
I live in Horsham, so yes. Far nicer than Crawley isn't it @creepyaddick & @WestSussexAddick Not that that's worth celebrating.
(Sheff Weds) Whatever the 'punishmnent' is it isn't going to end up relegating them.
Okay, maybe I'm a bit slow on the uptake here ....... but could someone explain to me the purpose of deducting 9 or even 12 points, if it does not affect a club's status?
Surely a points deduction is only punishment if it relegates a club or denies it promotion?
Last season, Birmingham were deducted 9 points. They dropped a few places in the table - but it made no significant impact on their season. None.
What sort of punishment is that?
None, and thats the problem with this all. EFL too toothless to enact anything like a proper punishment on a case by case basis. The only points punishment they seem to have got right is for admin, which is 12 points, no questions.
Comments
I would worry as a Wednesday fan as their stated defence doesn't seem to be one that would take too long to consider. Was the EFL compliant in what they did or not? I can't see how the EFL would be as one of the things it has to worry about is setting precedents. What would worry me more as a Wednesday fan would be the length of time may be being used to uncover as much dirt as possible so they are absolutely hammered.
The amount of points deducted would seem to be the burning question. Will it be as little as 9 following what was imposed on Birmingham? Or are we looking at 12 which seems to be the standard for this infringement? Or is there the evidence to go even further as an example to others? I just can't see it being nothing the length of time it has taken.
Sheffield Wednesday would've lost over 50m in one season, were it not for this ground 'sale'.
So on the face of it surely they have to be deducted at least the 9 points as they would've failed FFP, plus an extra fine for the blatant financial misconduct to try and get away with it?
Maybe there is more to it though, as i'm sure we don't know all the facts and it's taken forever to get sorted.
If found guilty, Wednesday will certainly get the 9 points that Birmingham got and their alleged attempts to cover it up will be a serious aggravating factor. I'd have thought that they'd get a further points deduction of anything between 6 and 12 points for that depending upon the Tribunal's findings. Wednesday have also wriggled like hell on every issue, rather than making any attempt to narrow the issues, so they'll be no mitigation for any degree of cooperation (unlike Birmingham in one of their cases).
Also, it's more than possible that part of any point deduction would be suspended (in other words not happen).
They have done everything they can to cheat.
Also worth bearing in mind that Birmingham admitted they had done wrong which mitigated the penalty from 12 down to 9 points. SW have fought this all the way.
Mere points deductions is insufficient for me. The guidelines are that a penalty is 12 points, but the independent panel have the power to increase or mitigate. They can and should relegate them.
Also they have Middlesbrough on the last day, of course now managed by ex-Sheff Utd manager and lifetime Blades fan Neil Warnock.
The time it has taken for EFL to deal with SW's cheerful malpractice is all part of their policy of only putting the boot into clubs that are already beyond help. SW have been a well funded club, they pay all their football bills reasonably promptly, EFL doesn't give a flying fornication about anyone or anything else. "Where's the harm if there was a bit of technical book cooking, which we probably knew about in advance anyway, move on next season starts in September."
24 followers on twatter.
https://twitter.com/dtaxi3959595?lang=en
The other is the World famous energy drink Elev8 another company solely owned by Chansiri.
At least they have 209 followers on twatter.
https://twitter.com/elev8energy?lang=en
These companies have put between six and seven figure sums into sponsoring Wednesday each year, yet the EFL do nothing about it.
Essentially it's the same (but on a lesser scale) as Man City being sponsored by a load of Abu Dhabi companies who are all in turn allegedly given some or most of the money back by Sheikh Mansour.
Companies House say that this has been a dormant company since April 2016. They had £1 in the bank in 2018 and -£52 in 2019.
So is Wednesdays shirt sponsorship deal £53?
A taxi firm with no taxis put money into Sheffield Wednesday over a few years in order to get round awkward rules?
Is it a bit like a person paying £500,000 to Charlton for a marchday meal and only getting a cheese sandwich.
No pickle.
Even in your scenario Seth, at least you could say you got a sandwich, albeit an expensive one!
If they don't fine them an enormous amount and relegate them, I'd suggest every other club in the championship has a legal claim against the EFL for allowing Wednesday to game the FFP governance system in this manner. The path of least resistance would seem to be for the EFL to give them enough of a penalty to relegate them, and hope that Wednesday just accept it and go away. If they don't, they'll be in legislation for years - and even if they do, Barnsley might not just accept that punishment is sufficient and start making waves legally anyway.
The system is inherently broken.
In contrast I worked with a guy who was born in and lived just outside Worthing. He had season tickets at Man City and Wigan.
If City were at home he was there, if City were away and Wigan were at home he went there. If both were away he went to watch Crawley Town.
Proper weirdo.
Surely a points deduction is only punishment if it relegates a club or denies it promotion?
Last season, Birmingham were deducted 9 points. They dropped a few places in the table - but it made no significant impact on their season. None.
What sort of punishment is that?