ESI 1 v ESI 2 - Initial Hearing 01-02/09/2020, Court of Appeal 17/09/2020 (p127)
Comments
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golfaddick said:FWIW........I reckon the COA wont hear/read the appeal until Wednesday afternoon & some old doddery fart will look at his watch and mutter.. " oh dear, the injunction runs out in an hour & I can't possibly give an answer in that time. Judge Pearce says that the case isn't until November so extending the injunction by a few weeks won't do any harm". And with that the injunction will be extended past the transfer deadline & with it goes our season.0
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WSS said:golfaddick said:FWIW........I reckon the COA wont hear/read the appeal until Wednesday afternoon & some old doddery fart will look at his watch and mutter.. " oh dear, the injunction runs out in an hour & I can't possibly give an answer in that time. Judge Pearce says that the case isn't until November so extending the injunction by a few weeks won't do any harm". And with that the injunction will be extended past the transfer deadline & with it goes our season.
They therefore announced that they would take their case to the Court of Appeal and asked him for a seven day injunction while they applied to the Court of Appeal for permission to appeal. He agreed to this and granted an injunction until 4pm on Wednesday September 9th. So, as it stands, the club can't be sold before next Wednesday.
So what happens now?
Lex Dominus have to lodge their grounds for appeal explaining why they should be granted permission to appeal. Permission will only be granted if the Court of Appeal thinks their appeal has a realistic chance of success, or there is some other good reason that an appeal should be heard. This is usually determined by the Court of Appeal on paper, but it can order a hearing. Panorama Magic will have the opportunity to contest this if a hearing is listed.
If Lex Dominus are granted leave to appeal they are likely to want to then apply for the injunction to be extended while the appeal is heard because otherwise the club could be sold before the appeal is heard.
This is a totally separate decision which might be decided by the Court of Appeal or they might refer it back to Judge Pearce. The balance of convenience would then come into play again. If a further two weeks’ (for example) delay was reckoned to threaten the club's existence then an extension would be unlikely to be granted.
CAST would be surprised if the Court of Appeal granted permission to appeal, let alone granted any eventual appeal. To do so it would have to take the view that Judge Pearce was "irrational, unreasonable or wrong" in refusing the injunction yesterday. However, as Charlton fans we know nothing is 100% certain in football or - it would seem - law.
In the meantime, Lex Dominus’s original application for an interim injunction remains refused, and Panorama has been awarded its costs, to be paid by Lex Dominus, such payment to be stayed pending resolution of its application for permission to appeal.
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I suspect the ESI 2 appeal will be that the club is not at risk as Elliot(t) is there to take it over. Given his letter to fans and that is probably the only direction they can take now. So the judge wasn't wrong but didn't understand their commitment and ability to run the club blah, blah, blah. I doubt they will succeed, but I do think it would be helpful to counter this with the evidence we have as well hopefully as confirmation they have failed the source test with the EFL.0
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MuttleyCAFC said:I suspect the ESI 2 appeal will be that the club is not at risk as Elliot(t) is there to take it over. Given his letter to fans and that is probably the only direction they can take now. So the judge wasn't wrong but didn't understand their commitment and ability to run the club blah, blah, blah. I doubt they will succeed, but I do think it would be helpful to counter this with the evidence we have as well hopefully as confirmation they have failed the source test with the EFL.
Its not like the injunction leaves Elliott to run the club himself0 -
ForeverAddickted said:MuttleyCAFC said:I suspect the ESI 2 appeal will be that the club is not at risk as Elliot(t) is there to take it over. Given his letter to fans and that is probably the only direction they can take now. So the judge wasn't wrong but didn't understand their commitment and ability to run the club blah, blah, blah. I doubt they will succeed, but I do think it would be helpful to counter this with the evidence we have as well hopefully as confirmation they have failed the source test with the EFL.
Its not like the injunction leaves Elliott to run the club himself
He has failed the ODT and is not allowed to take over the running of CAFC.
The EFL told CAFC to remove him.
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ForeverAddickted said:MuttleyCAFC said:I suspect the ESI 2 appeal will be that the club is not at risk as Elliot(t) is there to take it over. Given his letter to fans and that is probably the only direction they can take now. So the judge wasn't wrong but didn't understand their commitment and ability to run the club blah, blah, blah. I doubt they will succeed, but I do think it would be helpful to counter this with the evidence we have as well hopefully as confirmation they have failed the source test with the EFL.
Its not like the injunction leaves Elliott to run the club himself0 -
Covered End said:ForeverAddickted said:MuttleyCAFC said:I suspect the ESI 2 appeal will be that the club is not at risk as Elliot(t) is there to take it over. Given his letter to fans and that is probably the only direction they can take now. So the judge wasn't wrong but didn't understand their commitment and ability to run the club blah, blah, blah. I doubt they will succeed, but I do think it would be helpful to counter this with the evidence we have as well hopefully as confirmation they have failed the source test with the EFL.
Its not like the injunction leaves Elliott to run the club himself
He has failed the ODT and is not allowed to take over the running of CAFC.
The EFL told CAFC to remove him.0 -
MuttleyCAFC said:ForeverAddickted said:MuttleyCAFC said:I suspect the ESI 2 appeal will be that the club is not at risk as Elliot(t) is there to take it over. Given his letter to fans and that is probably the only direction they can take now. So the judge wasn't wrong but didn't understand their commitment and ability to run the club blah, blah, blah. I doubt they will succeed, but I do think it would be helpful to counter this with the evidence we have as well hopefully as confirmation they have failed the source test with the EFL.
Its not like the injunction leaves Elliott to run the club himself0 -
In terms of the EFL - Has anybody ever failed this sort of thing and won an appeal?0
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Serious question.
If TS takes over in the next week or so, and EFL give him the go-ahead, what money can He spend on transfers/Loans ?
Is there a limit on spending in Division 3 (League 1) regarding signings or is it just on wages/outgoings that is in the cap ?0 - Sponsored links:
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golfaddick said:FWIW........I reckon the COA wont hear/read the appeal until Wednesday afternoon & some old doddery fart will look at his watch and mutter.. " oh dear, the injunction runs out in an hour & I can't possibly give an answer in that time. Judge Pearce says that the case isn't until November so extending the injunction by a few weeks won't do any harm". And with that the injunction will be extended past the transfer deadline & with it goes our season.0
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MuttleyCAFC said:In terms of the EFL - Has anybody ever failed this sort of thing and won an appeal?0
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Airman Brown said:Scratchingvalleycat said:Addickted said:Gary Poole said:mendonca said:MM messing up the details about the Oadt test meant that it was an area that we could not expose in the trial.
There were so many holes in that area which we could not pursue with questioning. So much so that better questions have been posed on the board.
Lot of animosity being shown to MM over this. Happy to be proved wrong, but I would have thought CP was partially responsible for the lack of clarity.
Chris Parkes is the football secretary not the company secretary of CAFC Limited. Even if he were a fully fledged qualified Fellow of the Institute of Chartered Secretaries and Administrators (Now known as the Chartered Governance Institute) and appointed under the Companies Act to be the Company Secretary of CAFC Limited he would not be in a position to give advice to Panorama Magic which is the company for whom MM works. So no responsibility in this could fall at CPs door.
His suspension by Southall apparently came about because he submitted papers for Nimer to the EFL. He is the person who responded to the EFL request for assurance that Elliott was not involved with the running of the club and he is the person who submitted the Aussies’ documents way back when. It is exactly what he does.
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Covered End said:ForeverAddickted said:MuttleyCAFC said:I suspect the ESI 2 appeal will be that the club is not at risk as Elliot(t) is there to take it over. Given his letter to fans and that is probably the only direction they can take now. So the judge wasn't wrong but didn't understand their commitment and ability to run the club blah, blah, blah. I doubt they will succeed, but I do think it would be helpful to counter this with the evidence we have as well hopefully as confirmation they have failed the source test with the EFL.
Its not like the injunction leaves Elliott to run the club himself
He has failed the ODT and is not allowed to take over the running of CAFC.
The EFL told CAFC to remove him.
It's all just delay, delay, delay. It has been mentioned before, and disputed because it is deemed 'irrelevant", that as every day passes the more hurt the club is, by not being able to sign players. Players that will go elsewhere or at best, wont be "fit" when the season starts. Judge Pearce was more talking about the club going bust when he said that the injunction couldn't go on until November, but football fans know that there are smaller issues & nuances at stake in the short term.1 -
ElliotCAFC said:golfaddick said:FWIW........I reckon the COA wont hear/read the appeal until Wednesday afternoon & some old doddery fart will look at his watch and mutter.. " oh dear, the injunction runs out in an hour & I can't possibly give an answer in that time. Judge Pearce says that the case isn't until November so extending the injunction by a few weeks won't do any harm". And with that the injunction will be extended past the transfer deadline & with it goes our season.
I will be shocked if he does not see both sides are low life chancers out to plunder through sheers greed.
Judge Pearce did this and his summing up covered all aspects of his thought process and conclusion and the new Judge will easily follow the reasoning and I think it highly unlikely that he will reach any other conclusion himself.5 -
Spitfire76 said:So the OADT has to be submitted/ go through a club? Can an individual not take this test without a club?0
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golfaddick said:Covered End said:ForeverAddickted said:MuttleyCAFC said:I suspect the ESI 2 appeal will be that the club is not at risk as Elliot(t) is there to take it over. Given his letter to fans and that is probably the only direction they can take now. So the judge wasn't wrong but didn't understand their commitment and ability to run the club blah, blah, blah. I doubt they will succeed, but I do think it would be helpful to counter this with the evidence we have as well hopefully as confirmation they have failed the source test with the EFL.
Its not like the injunction leaves Elliott to run the club himself
He has failed the ODT and is not allowed to take over the running of CAFC.
The EFL told CAFC to remove him.
It's all just delay, delay, delay. It has been mentioned before, and disputed because it is deemed 'irrelevant", that as every day passes the more hurt the club is, by not being able to sign players. Players that will go elsewhere or at best, wont be "fit" when the season starts. Judge Pearce was more talking about the club going bust when he said that the injunction couldn't go on until November, but football fans know that there are smaller issues & nuances at stake in the short term.1 -
Scratchingvalleycat said:Airman Brown said:Scratchingvalleycat said:Addickted said:Gary Poole said:mendonca said:MM messing up the details about the Oadt test meant that it was an area that we could not expose in the trial.
There were so many holes in that area which we could not pursue with questioning. So much so that better questions have been posed on the board.
Lot of animosity being shown to MM over this. Happy to be proved wrong, but I would have thought CP was partially responsible for the lack of clarity.
Chris Parkes is the football secretary not the company secretary of CAFC Limited. Even if he were a fully fledged qualified Fellow of the Institute of Chartered Secretaries and Administrators (Now known as the Chartered Governance Institute) and appointed under the Companies Act to be the Company Secretary of CAFC Limited he would not be in a position to give advice to Panorama Magic which is the company for whom MM works. So no responsibility in this could fall at CPs door.
His suspension by Southall apparently came about because he submitted papers for Nimer to the EFL. He is the person who responded to the EFL request for assurance that Elliott was not involved with the running of the club and he is the person who submitted the Aussies’ documents way back when. It is exactly what he does.1 -
Redrobo said:ElliotCAFC said:golfaddick said:FWIW........I reckon the COA wont hear/read the appeal until Wednesday afternoon & some old doddery fart will look at his watch and mutter.. " oh dear, the injunction runs out in an hour & I can't possibly give an answer in that time. Judge Pearce says that the case isn't until November so extending the injunction by a few weeks won't do any harm". And with that the injunction will be extended past the transfer deadline & with it goes our season.
I will be shocked if he does not see both sides are low life chancers out to plunder through sheers greed.
Judge Pearce did this and his summing up covered all aspects of his thought process and conclusion and the new Judge will easily follow the reasoning and I think it highly unlikely that he will reach any other conclusion himself.Injustice happens everyday in courts all over the world, I don’t think we’re exempt from that.0 -
This is now about a decision a judge has made in a hearing. Forget about everything else, there has to be a major development for that not to be thrown out. I'm sure it will be sorted on Wednesday.0
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ForeverAddickted said:Covered End said:ForeverAddickted said:MuttleyCAFC said:I suspect the ESI 2 appeal will be that the club is not at risk as Elliot(t) is there to take it over. Given his letter to fans and that is probably the only direction they can take now. So the judge wasn't wrong but didn't understand their commitment and ability to run the club blah, blah, blah. I doubt they will succeed, but I do think it would be helpful to counter this with the evidence we have as well hopefully as confirmation they have failed the source test with the EFL.
Its not like the injunction leaves Elliott to run the club himself
He has failed the ODT and is not allowed to take over the running of CAFC.
The EFL told CAFC to remove him.
All they have to do is sit tight and wait for the CofA to say there is no appeal justified and Elliot is gone.
Then ES1 Nimer & Southall and ES2 Farnell & Elliot can have their November court case to fight out who gets what if anything.3 -
killerandflash said:golfaddick said:Covered End said:ForeverAddickted said:MuttleyCAFC said:I suspect the ESI 2 appeal will be that the club is not at risk as Elliot(t) is there to take it over. Given his letter to fans and that is probably the only direction they can take now. So the judge wasn't wrong but didn't understand their commitment and ability to run the club blah, blah, blah. I doubt they will succeed, but I do think it would be helpful to counter this with the evidence we have as well hopefully as confirmation they have failed the source test with the EFL.
Its not like the injunction leaves Elliott to run the club himself
He has failed the ODT and is not allowed to take over the running of CAFC.
The EFL told CAFC to remove him.
It's all just delay, delay, delay. It has been mentioned before, and disputed because it is deemed 'irrelevant", that as every day passes the more hurt the club is, by not being able to sign players. Players that will go elsewhere or at best, wont be "fit" when the season starts. Judge Pearce was more talking about the club going bust when he said that the injunction couldn't go on until November, but football fans know that there are smaller issues & nuances at stake in the short term.
Not directly because we all know the case is about who owns us or who has the right to own us. But this is not about ownership of a inanimate object like a car or a house. Its about a football club that earns its crust by taking part in a competition involving 23 other teams. And to compete successfully against those other teams the club needs to build a competitive squad, and whilst we delay those other 23 teams (plus others in other leagues) are looking to sign those players.
So........although to a Judge the fact that the transfer window is shutting next month means absolutely nothing, for a football club its is very important.0 -
ElliotCAFC said:golfaddick said:FWIW........I reckon the COA wont hear/read the appeal until Wednesday afternoon & some old doddery fart will look at his watch and mutter.. " oh dear, the injunction runs out in an hour & I can't possibly give an answer in that time. Judge Pearce says that the case isn't until November so extending the injunction by a few weeks won't do any harm". And with that the injunction will be extended past the transfer deadline & with it goes our season.7
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Miserableoldgit said:Serious question.
If TS takes over in the next week or so, and EFL give him the go-ahead, what money can He spend on transfers/Loans ?
Is there a limit on spending in Division 3 (League 1) regarding signings or is it just on wages/outgoings that is in the cap ?0 -
MuttleyCAFC said:In terms of the EFL - Has anybody ever failed this sort of thing and won an appeal?
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Miserableoldgit said:Miserableoldgit said:Serious question.
If TS takes over in the next week or so, and EFL give him the go-ahead, what money can He spend on transfers/Loans ?
Is there a limit on spending in Division 3 (League 1) regarding signings or is it just on wages/outgoings that is in the cap ?
Existing contracts are treated as the league average so we don't immediately have to cut every players wage.
It's the same for every club (rather than based on income) and it doesn't include transfer fees.
More detail here:
https://www.efl.com/news/2020/august/squad-salary-caps-introduced-in-league-one-and-league-two/
https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/football/portsmouth-fc/efl-salary-cap-explained-how-portsmouth-might-be-impacted-wage-limits-squad-numbers-and-transfer-fees-2913567
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Covered End said:ForeverAddickted said:Covered End said:ForeverAddickted said:MuttleyCAFC said:I suspect the ESI 2 appeal will be that the club is not at risk as Elliot(t) is there to take it over. Given his letter to fans and that is probably the only direction they can take now. So the judge wasn't wrong but didn't understand their commitment and ability to run the club blah, blah, blah. I doubt they will succeed, but I do think it would be helpful to counter this with the evidence we have as well hopefully as confirmation they have failed the source test with the EFL.
Its not like the injunction leaves Elliott to run the club himself
He has failed the ODT and is not allowed to take over the running of CAFC.
The EFL told CAFC to remove him.
All they have to do is sit tight and wait for the CofA to say there is no appeal justified and Elliot is gone.
Then ES1 Nimer & Southall and ES2 Farnell & Elliot can have their November court case to fight out who gets what if anything.I'm glad you're so confident.I think it's going to be tight, and any help we can get to support not giving this bloke what he wants can only help our case.It's pretty black and white for the EFL. Either he's passed or he hasn't. End of story for them.Maybe he's passed and they are doing us a favour?!
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carly burn said:Covered End said:ForeverAddickted said:Covered End said:ForeverAddickted said:MuttleyCAFC said:I suspect the ESI 2 appeal will be that the club is not at risk as Elliot(t) is there to take it over. Given his letter to fans and that is probably the only direction they can take now. So the judge wasn't wrong but didn't understand their commitment and ability to run the club blah, blah, blah. I doubt they will succeed, but I do think it would be helpful to counter this with the evidence we have as well hopefully as confirmation they have failed the source test with the EFL.
Its not like the injunction leaves Elliott to run the club himself
He has failed the ODT and is not allowed to take over the running of CAFC.
The EFL told CAFC to remove him.
All they have to do is sit tight and wait for the CofA to say there is no appeal justified and Elliot is gone.
Then ES1 Nimer & Southall and ES2 Farnell & Elliot can have their November court case to fight out who gets what if anything.I'm glad you're so confident.I think it's going to be tight, and any help we can get to support not giving this bloke what he wants can only help our case.It's pretty black and white for the EFL. Either he's passed or he hasn't. End of story for them.Maybe he's passed and they are doing us a favour?!13 -
Scoham said:Miserableoldgit said:Miserableoldgit said:Serious question.
If TS takes over in the next week or so, and EFL give him the go-ahead, what money can He spend on transfers/Loans ?
Is there a limit on spending in Division 3 (League 1) regarding signings or is it just on wages/outgoings that is in the cap ?
Existing contracts are treated as the league average so we don't immediately have to cut every players wage.
It's the same for every club (rather than based on income) and it doesn't include transfer fees.
More detail here:
https://www.efl.com/news/2020/august/squad-salary-caps-introduced-in-league-one-and-league-two/
https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/football/portsmouth-fc/efl-salary-cap-explained-how-portsmouth-might-be-impacted-wage-limits-squad-numbers-and-transfer-fees-29135671 -
Miserableoldgit said:Miserableoldgit said:Serious question.
If TS takes over in the next week or so, and EFL give him the go-ahead, what money can He spend on transfers/Loans ?
Is there a limit on spending in Division 3 (League 1) regarding signings or is it just on wages/outgoings that is in the cap ?
There is an equivalent of £2000pw allowed on wages.
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