My heart sank when I saw that Oshilaja was starting yesterday. For me, he is always a fatal mistake waiting to happen. I blamed him for us losing vital points due to predictable but unforgivable mistakes in a couple of the final games last season. For me, he is a liability that we can’t afford. Others on here don’t seem to see his errors, poor decision making, rash tackles, panicked clearances and terrible distribution.
To answer Paulfox. I think that certain players are not putting their all into the games and one of those players Bowyer didn't want to resign and the other was a gamble. In terms of last night's performance, we actually played well in the first half and but for Pearce making that calamity would have come in all square. What was noticable was when we brought Williams and Maddison on we became literally shocking, is that the managers fault yes and no, he puts them on to chase the game but their level of performance is down to them. The question as to whether Bowyer should go is not we are playing shit get rid, we have to look at all the other factors that got us to this point in the first place. Its a year since this club was bought for a pound most of what we see now including the division we are in can be traced back to that moment. This will take time to rebuild and for me Bowyer is the one to do it.
Respect your point as none of us are experts, but it feels like you are using excuses for bowyer and not actually focusing on the faults bowyer is making like Lee himself everything seems to be other people’s fault.. He said all along that all he concentrated on was football matters when things were tuff. Now surely he should have more clarity in his thinking now all is on the up. I’m not having a dig, I’m not one to think my opinion is final like some on here and then dig people out unnecessarily. I enjoy the views of others whether I agree or not. We’re all Charlton at the end of the day and hope for better than we are getting.I do think there is an issue with bowyer though.
Don’t think any criticism should go the way of JFC. He’s the only one who looked bothered
He and Osilaja plus Washington. As we let 2 in every game is Amos still not at fault !
What did Amos do wrong? Absolutely nothing, don't be ridiculous.
I don’t think he was particularly good for the first goal. But the OP is blaming him because we “let in 2 every game” which i agree is ridiculous and just lazy.
Was one catch too in the second half that he seemed a bit meh at dealing with... Got a free kick because the Accrington player stuck out a foot
One of those part of me hates to see any GK gets as think its a bit soft
I don’t doubt his confidence has dropped a bit, mainly because the two CBs who started so well in front of him are no longer there. But he is probably player of the year so far, blaming him for anything is mental.
First game I have watched for a long while and hoped the comments I have been reading on here must be wrong,,,,,,,,,,unfortunately, I know why each week people are complaining. I liked Millar and though for first game with us after just two training sessions he look promising. Aneke showed how to hold up the ball and move it on, I thought he was probably the only one who looked promising for a goal. JF-C worked hard in midfield without much help around him. Others do not agree but I thought Oshilaja had a good game compared with Pearce, made many interceptions and most passes went to another red shirt. Cannot judge Schwartz on tht game and as for the others, less said the better, 58 changes of players for us so far this season, (most in League 1), 18 for them, think about it LB
My heart sank when I saw that Oshilaja was starting yesterday. For me, he is always a fatal mistake waiting to happen. I blamed him for us losing vital points due to predictable but unforgivable mistakes in a couple of the final games last season. For me, he is a liability that we can’t afford. Others on here don’t seem to see his errors, poor decision making, rash tackles, panicked clearances and terrible distribution.
My heart sank when I saw that Oshilaja was starting yesterday. For me, he is always a fatal mistake waiting to happen. I blamed him for us losing vital points due to predictable but unforgivable mistakes in a couple of the final games last season. For me, he is a liability that we can’t afford. Others on here don’t seem to see his errors, poor decision making, rash tackles, panicked clearances and terrible distribution.
That doesn’t reflect yesterday’s game at all.
It does James. 100%.
He was one of our best players last night. You quite clearly made your mind up before a ball was kicked, almost admitted as much.
Of the four defenders Oshilaja was the only one who actually did his job which was to defend. How anyone can blame him for the second goal need there bumps felt. He cleared it away only for Maatsen to lose the ball and set them up for the goal. He went to block a shot the attacker showing a neat bit of skill and they scored. To blame him for that is just ridiculous.
Of the four defenders Oshilaja was the only one who actually did his job which was to defend. How anyone can blame him for the second goal need there bumps felt. He cleared it away only for Maatsen to lose the ball and set them up for the goal. He went to block a shot the attacker showing a neat bit of skill and they scored. To blame him for that is just ridiculous.
Yeah but because he has a mistake in him people will scapegoat him regardless. I’d say he was probably our best player last night.
My heart sank when I saw that Oshilaja was starting yesterday. For me, he is always a fatal mistake waiting to happen. I blamed him for us losing vital points due to predictable but unforgivable mistakes in a couple of the final games last season. For me, he is a liability that we can’t afford. Others on here don’t seem to see his errors, poor decision making, rash tackles, panicked clearances and terrible distribution.
Digging out one individual for a terrible team performance ... where have I heard this before ?
My heart sank when I saw that Oshilaja was starting yesterday. For me, he is always a fatal mistake waiting to happen. I blamed him for us losing vital points due to predictable but unforgivable mistakes in a couple of the final games last season. For me, he is a liability that we can’t afford. Others on here don’t seem to see his errors, poor decision making, rash tackles, panicked clearances and terrible distribution.
That doesn’t reflect yesterday’s game at all.
It does if you watch the first goal as he jogged back and stopped when Pearce tried to head the ball. If Deji had run back he could have got between their striker and the ball to make a clearance. OK so maybe he doesn't read the game that well but, like others last night, you play for your team mates.
My heart sank when I saw that Oshilaja was starting yesterday. For me, he is always a fatal mistake waiting to happen. I blamed him for us losing vital points due to predictable but unforgivable mistakes in a couple of the final games last season. For me, he is a liability that we can’t afford. Others on here don’t seem to see his errors, poor decision making, rash tackles, panicked clearances and terrible distribution.
I'm with you on this. Last season at the Valley watching us fight relegation, whenever his name was read out on the teamsheet, we would look at each other in a kind of 'I've got a bad feeling about this' kind of way. This usually proved to be intuitively correct. If you have to rely on him in the Championship, you are in trouble.
However, he was always much better when playing at League One level and as I have watched Pratley manly flailing at CB each week, I couldn't understand why he wasn't given the chance. Yesterday he got his chance and whilst not outstanding, he wasn't the disaster that some here are saying. I actually thought he did quite well under the circumstances, especially following the unique Bowyer 'vote of confidence' that he was given a few days ago.
That said, I still expect him to be moved on in the coming weeks/months.
The anger has subsided after a good night's sleep.
Bowyer was right to slam the players, although most certainly did it in the wrong way. He is a passionate man and clearly a Charlton man, but he needs to understand a bit more about the psychology of managing fragile egos.
Clearly the expectations of the new owner are somewhat different to the 2% interest shown by two sheds or the 'fuck the football, let's see how much more money we can pilfer from the coffers' of TS/CF/PE and the other crooks. Maybe that is getting to him and he does seem not to be in a good place himself.
Bows doesn't need sacking, but he does need help - maybe a friendly Curbs arm around him would take some of the pressure off and who better to act as a mentor. I don't know, none of us do, but something is fundamentally wrong at the moment and needs fixing. It isn't just the injuries.
Great post my thoughts exactly. Think Keith peacock was around a fair bit for Powell.
Well, we were asking Bowyer to play players in their right positions and be more attacking. He did that and we still lost 2-0. TBH I thought we looked better than the last couple of games and it's not Bowyer's fault that Pearce and Amos collectively mucked up and gave them a goal. Nor is it his fault that we gave them a second through poor defending. When we saw the post match interview on Sky I said to my daughter, "well, at least he's not publicly naming the player he's digging out, which is something". How little did I know? His comments about Maddison elsewhere are a disgrace - he should not have done it. What is it with LB and flair players? And I think the lack of effort from the team as a whole is his fault - something's wrong and he's got to sort it out, though I'd suggest the naming and shaming thing isn't helping.
I'm now of the view that we won't get anything out of this season and will probably finish somewhere around 10th. With the players and experience we have at our disposal, that really isn't good enough. I read comments from @oohaahmortimer and @golfaddick and think "yeah, these guys are calling it right and have a realistic understanding of where we're at" so my optimism is running very low indeed.
When we had that good run 100 years ago (or October, can't quite remember) I thought that we would improve once we got players like Gilbey back to fitness. He was slightly better yesterday but still pretty anonymous. Had 2 of our better shots. Miller looked good. JFC put the effort in. Oshilaja looked the best of our defenders. Washington and Smyth both put in a lot of effort too. Morgan fairly anonymous, Pearce error prone, Maatsen made more errors. Too early to tell on Schwartz.
The anger has subsided after a good night's sleep.
Bowyer was right to slam the players, although most certainly did it in the wrong way. He is a passionate man and clearly a Charlton man, but he needs to understand a bit more about the psychology of managing fragile egos.
Clearly the expectations of the new owner are somewhat different to the 2% interest shown by two sheds or the 'fuck the football, let's see how much more money we can pilfer from the coffers' of TS/CF/PE and the other crooks. Maybe that is getting to him and he does seem not to be in a good place himself.
Bows doesn't need sacking, but he does need help - maybe a friendly Curbs arm around him would take some of the pressure off and who better to act as a mentor. I don't know, none of us do, but something is fundamentally wrong at the moment and needs fixing. It isn't just the injuries.
Great post my thoughts exactly. Think Keith peacock was around a fair bit for Powell.
And indeed for Curbs. And Pardew (when he was at West Ham)
Don’t you love all the armchair critics on this board
calling for LB’s (and some even for SG’s) heads? They need a cold dose of reality,
rather than wallowing in some sense of Arsenal style fan entitlement. Let’s
deal with the facts.
In the Summer transfer window, having lost most of the squad
from the previous season, Lee and Steve were left with mostly unwanted scraps
to pick up in the market place. In most positions their 1st, 2nd,
and 3rd choices had gone, as players were no longer prepared to wait
to see (a) whether TS’s takeover would ever be completed and (b) that the
transfer embargo would be lifted. To top matters off when the club finally did
secure our heroic owner/saviour the league had, by then, imposed a financial
cap on all clubs in League 1 and below, effectively negating any positive financial
impact that TS could bring to the table.
People may argue why pick up these scraps? Well the answer
is quite simple, we would be heading for League 2 if we hadn’t, as we would be
relying heavily on our Under23s to get us through the season, many of whom
wouldn’t be able to make that step up and would have had their careers irreparably
damaged by having their respective confidences shattered. Yes, some would have
made the grade, but many wouldn’t simply because of the week in week out physical
demands of League 1.
In spite of having assembled a team of mostly 5th
rate choices LB has amazingly managed to steer his team towards the top end of
the table. It was achieved mostly on the back of having a physically imposing
backline in Innis and Famweo. They were ever presents in our 6 match winning
streak, when no goals were conceded, and having an attacking outlet in Alfie Doughty.
That back line, and Innis, in particular,
were also massive pluses in any set pieces in oppositions’ goalmouths. All three
players are out, having incurred long term injuries. And it is simply no surprise
that our form has dipped since they have disappeared. Pearce came back from a long
term injury and LB has had to juggle with his back line because of the absence of
his first choice centre backs.
More recently an injury to Watson, and with Pratley suspended,
has meant that much of the experience in this group has temporarily gone. We
are left with a lightweight midfield, with little energy, aggression or vision.
That’s not Lee’s fault. He’s been dealt a crap hand and I, for one, would not
be prepared to judge him until he has been able to assemble a proper squad of his
choosing. And that won’t happen in the current window. It will be in the
Summer.
Aside from this I love all of the snowflake comments about
throwing players under a bus, poor man management, bla bla bla, all out of an HR
manual. People forget that with full stadia players are mercilessly crucified
on a weekly basis if they fail to perform. A lot of them are simply too
comfortable in the current crowd free environments. Lee wouldn’t have to castigate
some of the players if there were crowds in place, they would be doing it for
him in a far more effective manner.
I equally love the ‘Lee’s lost the dressing room mantra’
that’s thrown up on a regular basis on this board. Throughout my entire career I
never once worked in a company where someone wasn’t having a pop at the management.
Disaffection is the norm in most organisations, unless of course you work in
Nirvana. So to hear that Player X said this, or Player Y has said that, cuts no
ice with me. People forget that professional football is a brutal sport, with
no room for failure. Do you think for one second that Alex Ferguson (THE exemplar
of success) was all sweetness and light? Hell no. He intimidated players,
scared them shitless when necessary. Lee is a pussycat by comparison. To
reiterate Lee is presiding over the legacy of previous failed ownerships and
because of Covid cannot redress the situation yet. Hopefully with the aid of
vaccines we will see the return of crowds by the beginning of next season and
the lifting of salary caps. Then, and only then, will I judge Lee.
I have never been part of the "Bowyer Out" brigade, I've been a more cautious member of @ForeverAddickted's group.
However, after this evenings post-match interview I think the manager has had enough.
He hasn't just thrown a player or two under the bus, he's put on full Rambo outfit, lobbed a couple of smoke grenades into the dressing room and started spraying bullets everywhere.
There can't be a player left in that squad who'd want to run through brick walls for the boss.
It's a sad day for the Charlton Athletic Football Club.
Sadly I think you are right. Welcome to Danish Dan the next manager of Charlton some no mark that fans can get behind for a year.
The point is Bowyer has to take responsibility for that shit show. Then perhaps genuine fans would be more willing to draw a line under it and allow Bowyer to do what he needs to do behind closed doors. I think it is very poor management to single out individual players publicly like he has done.
It's his style and I don't know why people are shocked by it. I'm just saying be careful what you wish for.
It's not a great style as it doesn't seem to work. We can't play much worse.
We can and have played worse, many nights I travelled home watching us at shitty Selhurst. And many times under many managers since. Bowyer had no interest In football after he retired. Robinson with his gob somehow talked him into coming back(maybe he was wrong). Bowyer was then left in charge and done an amazing job under the circumstances. I'm not saying that makes him untouchable but I'd give him this season with the new ownership to build. I don't think he will even get this season though as it appears so many want him gone. So when some random Danish manager rocks up with a Charlton kit on I'm sure everyone will behind him.
Weren't we in the top tier for most of the time at shitty Selhurst? We were never rolled over by fucking Accrington Stanley. Liverpool, Clough's Forest, Arsenal, Spurs maybe but fucking Accrington Stanley?!?!
Karl Robinson lost a lot of the fan base by loosing to Gillingham. But fucking Accrington Stanley?
The wage cap isn't an excuse because they didn't make us pay Gunter and Watson about half of their 1st 11s wages.
I am not embarrassed we lost to Accrington Stanley, I am embarrassed we didn't give our selves a chance to win and were out played, out thought and out battled.
You mentioned Accrington Stanley a lot then say you aint embarrassed? Yes we didn't lose to them whilst playing at Selhurst but we were still awful to watch there against whoever we played. I'm as lost as you why we ain't battling but Im hoping LB can sort that out still. The wage cap is not an excuse it's a fact and it's fkd us. I just think LB needs a bit of breather and change of plan. I don't think he will be given that time though
Sandgaard said Bowyer is the man. He also said that he hopes for promotion in two seasons. Bowyer has time to get things right.
Bowyer is very much the best manager we have had in a very long time and he is right to dig people out. And he is right when he says the players are not criticising each other enough on the pitch. One of the best captains I’ve seen operate on the pitch is Roy Keane who used to almost be hitting his fellow playersIf they were not performing properly and the players for us need to be doing that to each other at least verbally.
Don’t you love all the armchair critics on this board
calling for LB’s (and some even for SG’s) heads? They need a cold dose of reality,
rather than wallowing in some sense of Arsenal style fan entitlement. Let’s
deal with the facts.
In the Summer transfer window, having lost most of the squad
from the previous season, Lee and Steve were left with mostly unwanted scraps
to pick up in the market place. In most positions their 1st, 2nd,
and 3rd choices had gone, as players were no longer prepared to wait
to see (a) whether TS’s takeover would ever be completed and (b) that the
transfer embargo would be lifted. To top matters off when the club finally did
secure our heroic owner/saviour the league had, by then, imposed a financial
cap on all clubs in League 1 and below, effectively negating any positive financial
impact that TS could bring to the table.
People may argue why pick up these scraps? Well the answer
is quite simple, we would be heading for League 2 if we hadn’t, as we would be
relying heavily on our Under23s to get us through the season, many of whom
wouldn’t be able to make that step up and would have had their careers irreparably
damaged by having their respective confidences shattered. Yes, some would have
made the grade, but many wouldn’t simply because of the week in week out physical
demands of League 1.
In spite of having assembled a team of mostly 5th
rate choices LB has amazingly managed to steer his team towards the top end of
the table. It was achieved mostly on the back of having a physically imposing
backline in Innis and Famweo. They were ever presents in our 6 match winning
streak, when no goals were conceded, and having an attacking outlet in Alfie Doughty.
That back line, and Innis, in particular,
were also massive pluses in any set pieces in oppositions’ goalmouths. All three
players are out, having incurred long term injuries. And it is simply no surprise
that our form has dipped since they have disappeared. Pearce came back from a long
term injury and LB has had to juggle with his back line because of the absence of
his first choice centre backs.
More recently an injury to Watson, and with Pratley suspended,
has meant that much of the experience in this group has temporarily gone. We
are left with a lightweight midfield, with little energy, aggression or vision.
That’s not Lee’s fault. He’s been dealt a crap hand and I, for one, would not
be prepared to judge him until he has been able to assemble a proper squad of his
choosing. And that won’t happen in the current window. It will be in the
Summer.
Aside from this I love all of the snowflake comments about
throwing players under a bus, poor man management, bla bla bla, all out an HR
manual. People forget that with full stadia players are mercilessly crucified
on a weekly basis if they fail to perform. A lot of them are simply too
comfortable in the current crowd free environments. Lee wouldn’t have to castigate
some of the players if there were crowds in place, they would be doing it for
him in a far more effective manner.
I equally love the ‘Lee’s lost the dressing room mantra’
that’s thrown up on a regular basis on this board. Throughout my entire career I
never once worked in a company where someone wasn’t having a pop at the management.
Disaffection is the norm in most organisations, unless of course you work in
Nirvana. So to hear that Player X said this, or Player Y has said that, cuts no
ice with me. People forget that professional football is a brutal sport, with
no room for failure. Do you think for one second that Alex Ferguson (THE exemplar
of success) was all sweetness and light? Hell no. He intimidated players,
scared them shitless when necessary. Lee is a pussycat by comparison. To
reiterate Lee is presiding over the legacy of previous failed ownerships and
because of Covid cannot redress the situation yet. Hopefully with the aid of
vaccines we will see the return of crowds by the beginning of next season and
the lifting of salary caps. Then, and only then, will I judge Lee.
Totally spot on. Add Shinnie's absence into the mix (a big creative miss in midfield) and you've captured the whole story.
I have never been part of the "Bowyer Out" brigade, I've been a more cautious member of @ForeverAddickted's group.
However, after this evenings post-match interview I think the manager has had enough.
He hasn't just thrown a player or two under the bus, he's put on full Rambo outfit, lobbed a couple of smoke grenades into the dressing room and started spraying bullets everywhere.
There can't be a player left in that squad who'd want to run through brick walls for the boss.
It's a sad day for the Charlton Athletic Football Club.
Sadly I think you are right. Welcome to Danish Dan the next manager of Charlton some no mark that fans can get behind for a year.
The point is Bowyer has to take responsibility for that shit show. Then perhaps genuine fans would be more willing to draw a line under it and allow Bowyer to do what he needs to do behind closed doors. I think it is very poor management to single out individual players publicly like he has done.
It's his style and I don't know why people are shocked by it. I'm just saying be careful what you wish for.
It's not a great style as it doesn't seem to work. We can't play much worse.
We can and have played worse, many nights I travelled home watching us at shitty Selhurst. And many times under many managers since. Bowyer had no interest In football after he retired. Robinson with his gob somehow talked him into coming back(maybe he was wrong). Bowyer was then left in charge and done an amazing job under the circumstances. I'm not saying that makes him untouchable but I'd give him this season with the new ownership to build. I don't think he will even get this season though as it appears so many want him gone. So when some random Danish manager rocks up with a Charlton kit on I'm sure everyone will behind him.
Weren't we in the top tier for most of the time at shitty Selhurst? We were never rolled over by fucking Accrington Stanley. Liverpool, Clough's Forest, Arsenal, Spurs maybe but fucking Accrington Stanley?!?!
Karl Robinson lost a lot of the fan base by loosing to Gillingham. But fucking Accrington Stanley?
The wage cap isn't an excuse because they didn't make us pay Gunter and Watson about half of their 1st 11s wages.
I am not embarrassed we lost to Accrington Stanley, I am embarrassed we didn't give our selves a chance to win and were out played, out thought and out battled.
You mentioned Accrington Stanley a lot then say you aint embarrassed? Yes we didn't lose to them whilst playing at Selhurst but we were still awful to watch there against whoever we played. I'm as lost as you why we ain't battling but Im hoping LB can sort that out still. The wage cap is not an excuse it's a fact and it's fkd us. I just think LB needs a bit of breather and change of plan. I don't think he will be given that time though
The wage cap hasn't fucked us, how we spent it fucked us. How many Accrington players wages do you think Gunter's and Watson's cover?
The same is true for Burton, MK Don's, Shrewsbury etc etc. I'll give you a clue, it's about 5 or 6.
Sorry you really are not making sense. Those players were bought in during the last transfer window when we didn't really know if we would still have a club, so it was very last minute. This window we have money but are hampered by the cap.
Gunter and Watson were bought in after Thomas bought the club. So we did know we still had a club. They are on over 10k a week between them.
That's why we are hampered by the cap. Accrington, Burton, MK dons could probably have 4 or 5 players on that between them.
Have you seen where Burton are in the table? They'll stay there as well with fat bum in charge.
Good interview, calm, measured, LB brutally honest about our shortcomings. As a manager you have no control once the players get on the pitch.
Several things have struck me over recent games. When we get a throw in, no one ever seems to want the ball.
And other teams we play in defensive situations it’s safety first, put the ball out. Don’t try to play it out - that’s what we keep doing, and we keep getting caught out.
Accrington could have had 4 or 5 last night and it wouldn’t have flattered them.
The throw in thing I've highlighted on here for probably two years, we are shocking at them, defending them and in possession.
The anger has subsided after a good night's sleep.
Bowyer was right to slam the players, although most certainly did it in the wrong way. He is a passionate man and clearly a Charlton man, but he needs to understand a bit more about the psychology of managing fragile egos.
Clearly the expectations of the new owner are somewhat different to the 2% interest shown by two sheds or the 'fuck the football, let's see how much more money we can pilfer from the coffers' of TS/CF/PE and the other crooks. Maybe that is getting to him and he does seem not to be in a good place himself.
Bows doesn't need sacking, but he does need help - maybe a friendly Curbs arm around him would take some of the pressure off and who better to act as a mentor. I don't know, none of us do, but something is fundamentally wrong at the moment and needs fixing. It isn't just the injuries.
I totally agree with this.
Could have left it at that, so apologies for the long post – but I’ve had a lot of thoughts swirling round my head for the last 15 hours or so and sort of need to get them out.
The one thing Bowyer needs to change is how he deals with post match interviews. He needs to go into these with a clear mind, thinking more of the next game, the next five games, the season, rather than what he has just witnessed, which he can’t change.
He just has to manage himself to do this whatever he is feeling inside. He needs to have a template to work to and probably get this clear even before the game. He needs help and support from senior people around him to get this right. Maybe Jacko should do them sometimes, whatever that means for the new glossy Valley Pass experience. It isn’t Bowyer’s strength and they need to improve this as a senior team.
That said he is honest, passionate and gets the club. In some senses being frank about players is refreshing but he has got into a pattern now of taking things too far, and last night way too far. Whether he rates his squad or not, he needs them and it’s his job to make them better than the sum of their parts. It is inconceivable that yesterday’s showing will do that, and more inconceivable that he can carry on doing it – that is a certain route to chaos and the exit door. If he is going to stay he has to change this, and now. If he doesn’t, he deserves the sack.
I’m not saying he should try to become someone he isn’t, but he just needs to find a way to temper the extremes. All of us have to communicate as we should, rather than always say what we really think in professional settings if we are going to stay in employment.
My partner never watches the games, isn’t massively into football, but generally likes sport. She overheard last night’s interview on Sky and was shocked. Said she had never heard any manager dig out players like that.
A lot of people are guilty of short termism during this current tailspin and it is only making things worse – the fans and Bowyer. Digging out Gallen (!!), individual players (even if they’ve played quite well or better), the manager for every defeat is just (understandable) knee jerk stuff, driven by a desperation to get out of this division fast now we have an owner who wants sporting success for the club. It smacks of thrashing around trying to find someone or something to blame in the moment – but the answer isn’t in the moment.
The real reasons for this current run of form are deep rooted, complex, multi-faceted and long term - years of underinvestment, annual panic driven recruitment, awful contract management, no strategy or constantly fluctuating strategy. We succeeded two years ago despite all of that, but at some point lack of corporate capacity and direction of travel will bite, and it has done – both this season and last.
The only way to arrest this is a long term plan that is aligned to the culture of the club, and the one shining light is that we have an owner who appears to be determined to put that in place – not just throwing money at the club, but allying investment to strategy. And his words are backed by his early actions – sporting director, commercial director, investment in the medical side, transformed communications, taking time to understand the depth and breadth of the club at all levels. Thankfully Sangaard appears to be the one person who is staying calm, and thinking long term, and I hope and trust he continues to do so and doesn’t lose his determination and focus if things on the field don’t change as fast as he desires.
Proper strategy and a rebuild of the club’s infrastructure doesn’t guarantee success in any individual season. We got promoted despite Duchatalet’s fecklessness and it may take a long time to go up again despite Sangaard. But if he sticks to his approach, and we buy into it and stay patient, at some point we will start to see the success again we all so desperately crave. That’s sort of the point of a long term plan.
I don’t really have an issue with Bowyer on a tactical level, he’s tried things recently as best he’s seen them, they’ve failed – that happens. We’re in a poor run of form – it happens. He has proved in the past he can build sustained success and a strong team culture, and with meagre resources. His successful teams play good football.
The narrative the 2018-19 side was a golden generation is somewhat rose tinted. It was probably a better squad than this one, but the superb run in the second half of that season was achieved with only one proper striker. We have many more options than that now, which is perhaps part of the current problem I accept.
I also think the Bowyer is unintelligent or inarticulate line is misplaced. Yes, he lacks the emotional intelligence or calmness to say what he should immediately after games and he needs to address that. But Bowyer clearly understands the game, he speaks well and thoughtfully in his weekly press conferences and other interviews. We all know the difficulties he had as a young man, and maybe he’s not ‘intelligent’ in a classic or academic away, but he’s a person who despite difficulties earlier in life sustained a long playing career at a high level and appears to have made good decisions with the money he earned from the game to carve out a sustainable future for himself and his family. Those are not the actions or behaviours of a person lacking in intelligence.
I’m a believer that you have to have a balance of strategy and culture in getting a business right. You can’t import a generic business model or successful leader from elsewhere and make it work in every context. The successful DNA of Charlton on the football side is a team of hardworking players, without many or any superstars, managed by an ex-player who ‘gets’ the club and its fanbase. Our last four promotions, going back over twenty years, were achieved with this model. That can’t be a coincidence, and I wonder if there are many or any other clubs with that record.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Bowyer goes, but we should be careful what we wish for. He is clearly not in a good emotional place at the moment. In my view Sangaard and others need to help him and support him through this, rather than showing him the door. As fans we need patience and to remember where we were. We may just have to accept this is a dead season, but at least we are not fearful for the future of the club anymore and the agony is only about what is happening on the pitch – how we would have wished for that just a few months ago and for the much of the last decade!
What a predictably depressing result , although the performance wasn’t as bad as we’ve had to suffer recently , FairPlay Accrington. No Pratley or Watson means no steady Eddie to calm it all down and read the game and put the foot in where necessary, even though we have been pony in this run with them they were missed last night . It was the best we’ve played recently but still not good enough . Players have regressed and they’re not playing for the manager . His man management skills are severely lacking , there is no need to point out the obvious we can all see the bottling and crapness , in these unprecedented times the man management side of the game is prolly more required than usual and Bowyer is not hitting the spot . Where do we go from here well good luck with that Thomas , I said it’d all end in tears , it feels like it’s gonna begin in tears ! Imo no one could get this group of players to perform as poorly as they currently are , their not running through brick walls for their manager or team mates , something is seriously wrong . I’d now prefer a change at the top `Cook , Curbs or Chris in that order because I don’t want to chuck this season in the bin . I also can see the point of Bowyer having earned a chance to see the season out but he’s gonna have to perform miracles to get this group playing for him again .
At least with the ground open my kids had to watch the game , now though they all fuck off to their bedrooms or look at their phones ignoring the shit I’m putting myself through, it’s a bit gutting cos I can feel them losing their interest in us .
At least we’re still 5th 6th 7th 8th Now..............could be 10th by tonight.
At the end of the day it's all about man management here. That is where I feel Lee is letting himself down and he has to watch it. Players do make mistakes. They're only human. However you feel you don't blast them out in public. That's just a no no. Classic example is Pearce's error. Yes, it was bad but every player will make mistakes and that's what that was. You could tell on Pearce's face that he knew that. He didn't do it on purpose but it was a mistake. Bowyer can bawl him out in private. In the dressing room in front of the other players. But don't bawl him out for all the world to see. And it is that which will be his undoing if he doesn't change his approach.
Regarding TS. He knows exactly what is going on here. Far more than any of us. He will be getting briefings from his middle management, put in place for exactly these reasons. He will trust them. They are his appointees. One thing we do know is that Thomas will handle it in a professional way. And he will not be blasting it all over Twitter. But he will be handling it behind the scenes.
I hope that this can be sorted out with Bowyer still in place but, at the moment, it's difficult to see that. I'm not sure if Lee has the personality to adapt his approach. I hope he's not slowly self destructing which, let's face it, definitely affected his playing career.
Don’t you love all the armchair critics on this board
calling for LB’s (and some even for SG’s) heads? They need a cold dose of reality,
rather than wallowing in some sense of Arsenal style fan entitlement. Let’s
deal with the facts.
In the Summer transfer window, having lost most of the squad
from the previous season, Lee and Steve were left with mostly unwanted scraps
to pick up in the market place. In most positions their 1st, 2nd,
and 3rd choices had gone, as players were no longer prepared to wait
to see (a) whether TS’s takeover would ever be completed and (b) that the
transfer embargo would be lifted. To top matters off when the club finally did
secure our heroic owner/saviour the league had, by then, imposed a financial
cap on all clubs in League 1 and below, effectively negating any positive financial
impact that TS could bring to the table.
People may argue why pick up these scraps? Well the answer
is quite simple, we would be heading for League 2 if we hadn’t, as we would be
relying heavily on our Under23s to get us through the season, many of whom
wouldn’t be able to make that step up and would have had their careers irreparably
damaged by having their respective confidences shattered. Yes, some would have
made the grade, but many wouldn’t simply because of the week in week out physical
demands of League 1.
In spite of having assembled a team of mostly 5th
rate choices LB has amazingly managed to steer his team towards the top end of
the table. It was achieved mostly on the back of having a physically imposing
backline in Innis and Famweo. They were ever presents in our 6 match winning
streak, when no goals were conceded, and having an attacking outlet in Alfie Doughty.
That back line, and Innis, in particular,
were also massive pluses in any set pieces in oppositions’ goalmouths. All three
players are out, having incurred long term injuries. And it is simply no surprise
that our form has dipped since they have disappeared. Pearce came back from a long
term injury and LB has had to juggle with his back line because of the absence of
his first choice centre backs.
More recently an injury to Watson, and with Pratley suspended,
has meant that much of the experience in this group has temporarily gone. We
are left with a lightweight midfield, with little energy, aggression or vision.
That’s not Lee’s fault. He’s been dealt a crap hand and I, for one, would not
be prepared to judge him until he has been able to assemble a proper squad of his
choosing. And that won’t happen in the current window. It will be in the
Summer.
Aside from this I love all of the snowflake comments about
throwing players under a bus, poor man management, bla bla bla, all out of an HR
manual. People forget that with full stadia players are mercilessly crucified
on a weekly basis if they fail to perform. A lot of them are simply too
comfortable in the current crowd free environments. Lee wouldn’t have to castigate
some of the players if there were crowds in place, they would be doing it for
him in a far more effective manner.
I equally love the ‘Lee’s lost the dressing room mantra’
that’s thrown up on a regular basis on this board. Throughout my entire career I
never once worked in a company where someone wasn’t having a pop at the management.
Disaffection is the norm in most organisations, unless of course you work in
Nirvana. So to hear that Player X said this, or Player Y has said that, cuts no
ice with me. People forget that professional football is a brutal sport, with
no room for failure. Do you think for one second that Alex Ferguson (THE exemplar
of success) was all sweetness and light? Hell no. He intimidated players,
scared them shitless when necessary. Lee is a pussycat by comparison. To
reiterate Lee is presiding over the legacy of previous failed ownerships and
because of Covid cannot redress the situation yet. Hopefully with the aid of
vaccines we will see the return of crowds by the beginning of next season and
the lifting of salary caps. Then, and only then, will I judge Lee.
Didn't read any further than this as you are trying to re-write history. Yes, we were late to the party in bringing players in but Watson & Gunter were top of SG & LB's list & may have been available because (if you believe what was said on here earlier) they were holding out for top dollar wages (Gunter on £6k). We also brought in Matthews too who I doubt is on peanuts & who most on here wanted back as he was good for us last season. Also Washington & Gilbey we paid money for & beat other clubs to their signatures so weren't last minute bargain bucket buys. Only Levitt was a last minute signing - Smyth we had been chasing for the past 2 transfer windows.
And that is the problem - we haven't been bringing in nobody's from Europe or Non-League. The players are all (or have been) decent for previous clubs - only Bogle can you say is playing above his station. The rest should be god enough to be top 6 - or at least giving teams a game. Most weeks we are second best and are usually on the back foot or chasing the game.
Comments
How anyone can blame him for the second goal need there bumps felt.
He cleared it away only for Maatsen to lose the ball and set them up for the goal.
He went to block a shot the attacker showing a neat bit of skill and they scored.
To blame him for that is just ridiculous.
However, he was always much better when playing at League One level and as I have watched Pratley manly flailing at CB each week, I couldn't understand why he wasn't given the chance. Yesterday he got his chance and whilst not outstanding, he wasn't the disaster that some here are saying. I actually thought he did quite well under the circumstances, especially following the unique Bowyer 'vote of confidence' that he was given a few days ago.
That said, I still expect him to be moved on in the coming weeks/months.
I'm now of the view that we won't get anything out of this season and will probably finish somewhere around 10th. With the players and experience we have at our disposal, that really isn't good enough. I read comments from @oohaahmortimer and @golfaddick and think "yeah, these guys are calling it right and have a realistic understanding of where we're at" so my optimism is running very low indeed.
When we had that good run 100 years ago (or October, can't quite remember) I thought that we would improve once we got players like Gilbey back to fitness. He was slightly better yesterday but still pretty anonymous. Had 2 of our better shots. Miller looked good. JFC put the effort in. Oshilaja looked the best of our defenders. Washington and Smyth both put in a lot of effort too. Morgan fairly anonymous, Pearce error prone, Maatsen made more errors. Too early to tell on Schwartz.
And indeed for Curbs. And Pardew (when he was at West Ham)
Don’t you love all the armchair critics on this board calling for LB’s (and some even for SG’s) heads? They need a cold dose of reality, rather than wallowing in some sense of Arsenal style fan entitlement. Let’s deal with the facts.
In the Summer transfer window, having lost most of the squad from the previous season, Lee and Steve were left with mostly unwanted scraps to pick up in the market place. In most positions their 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choices had gone, as players were no longer prepared to wait to see (a) whether TS’s takeover would ever be completed and (b) that the transfer embargo would be lifted. To top matters off when the club finally did secure our heroic owner/saviour the league had, by then, imposed a financial cap on all clubs in League 1 and below, effectively negating any positive financial impact that TS could bring to the table.
People may argue why pick up these scraps? Well the answer is quite simple, we would be heading for League 2 if we hadn’t, as we would be relying heavily on our Under23s to get us through the season, many of whom wouldn’t be able to make that step up and would have had their careers irreparably damaged by having their respective confidences shattered. Yes, some would have made the grade, but many wouldn’t simply because of the week in week out physical demands of League 1.
In spite of having assembled a team of mostly 5th rate choices LB has amazingly managed to steer his team towards the top end of the table. It was achieved mostly on the back of having a physically imposing backline in Innis and Famweo. They were ever presents in our 6 match winning streak, when no goals were conceded, and having an attacking outlet in Alfie Doughty. That back line, and Innis, in particular, were also massive pluses in any set pieces in oppositions’ goalmouths. All three players are out, having incurred long term injuries. And it is simply no surprise that our form has dipped since they have disappeared. Pearce came back from a long term injury and LB has had to juggle with his back line because of the absence of his first choice centre backs.
More recently an injury to Watson, and with Pratley suspended, has meant that much of the experience in this group has temporarily gone. We are left with a lightweight midfield, with little energy, aggression or vision. That’s not Lee’s fault. He’s been dealt a crap hand and I, for one, would not be prepared to judge him until he has been able to assemble a proper squad of his choosing. And that won’t happen in the current window. It will be in the Summer.
Aside from this I love all of the snowflake comments about throwing players under a bus, poor man management, bla bla bla, all out of an HR manual. People forget that with full stadia players are mercilessly crucified on a weekly basis if they fail to perform. A lot of them are simply too comfortable in the current crowd free environments. Lee wouldn’t have to castigate some of the players if there were crowds in place, they would be doing it for him in a far more effective manner.
I equally love the ‘Lee’s lost the dressing room mantra’ that’s thrown up on a regular basis on this board. Throughout my entire career I never once worked in a company where someone wasn’t having a pop at the management. Disaffection is the norm in most organisations, unless of course you work in Nirvana. So to hear that Player X said this, or Player Y has said that, cuts no ice with me. People forget that professional football is a brutal sport, with no room for failure. Do you think for one second that Alex Ferguson (THE exemplar of success) was all sweetness and light? Hell no. He intimidated players, scared them shitless when necessary. Lee is a pussycat by comparison. To reiterate Lee is presiding over the legacy of previous failed ownerships and because of Covid cannot redress the situation yet. Hopefully with the aid of vaccines we will see the return of crowds by the beginning of next season and the lifting of salary caps. Then, and only then, will I judge Lee.
Sandgaard said Bowyer is the man. He also said that he hopes for promotion in two seasons. Bowyer has time to get things right.
Why does he want to leave?
I totally agree with this.
Could have left it at that, so apologies for the long post – but I’ve had a lot of thoughts swirling round my head for the last 15 hours or so and sort of need to get them out.
The one thing Bowyer needs to change is how he deals with post match interviews. He needs to go into these with a clear mind, thinking more of the next game, the next five games, the season, rather than what he has just witnessed, which he can’t change.
He just has to manage himself to do this whatever he is feeling inside. He needs to have a template to work to and probably get this clear even before the game. He needs help and support from senior people around him to get this right. Maybe Jacko should do them sometimes, whatever that means for the new glossy Valley Pass experience. It isn’t Bowyer’s strength and they need to improve this as a senior team.
That said he is honest, passionate and gets the club. In some senses being frank about players is refreshing but he has got into a pattern now of taking things too far, and last night way too far. Whether he rates his squad or not, he needs them and it’s his job to make them better than the sum of their parts. It is inconceivable that yesterday’s showing will do that, and more inconceivable that he can carry on doing it – that is a certain route to chaos and the exit door. If he is going to stay he has to change this, and now. If he doesn’t, he deserves the sack.
I’m not saying he should try to become someone he isn’t, but he just needs to find a way to temper the extremes. All of us have to communicate as we should, rather than always say what we really think in professional settings if we are going to stay in employment.
My partner never watches the games, isn’t massively into football, but generally likes sport. She overheard last night’s interview on Sky and was shocked. Said she had never heard any manager dig out players like that.
A lot of people are guilty of short termism during this current tailspin and it is only making things worse – the fans and Bowyer. Digging out Gallen (!!), individual players (even if they’ve played quite well or better), the manager for every defeat is just (understandable) knee jerk stuff, driven by a desperation to get out of this division fast now we have an owner who wants sporting success for the club. It smacks of thrashing around trying to find someone or something to blame in the moment – but the answer isn’t in the moment.
The real reasons for this current run of form are deep rooted, complex, multi-faceted and long term - years of underinvestment, annual panic driven recruitment, awful contract management, no strategy or constantly fluctuating strategy. We succeeded two years ago despite all of that, but at some point lack of corporate capacity and direction of travel will bite, and it has done – both this season and last.
The only way to arrest this is a long term plan that is aligned to the culture of the club, and the one shining light is that we have an owner who appears to be determined to put that in place – not just throwing money at the club, but allying investment to strategy. And his words are backed by his early actions – sporting director, commercial director, investment in the medical side, transformed communications, taking time to understand the depth and breadth of the club at all levels. Thankfully Sangaard appears to be the one person who is staying calm, and thinking long term, and I hope and trust he continues to do so and doesn’t lose his determination and focus if things on the field don’t change as fast as he desires.
Proper strategy and a rebuild of the club’s infrastructure doesn’t guarantee success in any individual season. We got promoted despite Duchatalet’s fecklessness and it may take a long time to go up again despite Sangaard. But if he sticks to his approach, and we buy into it and stay patient, at some point we will start to see the success again we all so desperately crave. That’s sort of the point of a long term plan.
I don’t really have an issue with Bowyer on a tactical level, he’s tried things recently as best he’s seen them, they’ve failed – that happens. We’re in a poor run of form – it happens. He has proved in the past he can build sustained success and a strong team culture, and with meagre resources. His successful teams play good football.
The narrative the 2018-19 side was a golden generation is somewhat rose tinted. It was probably a better squad than this one, but the superb run in the second half of that season was achieved with only one proper striker. We have many more options than that now, which is perhaps part of the current problem I accept.
I also think the Bowyer is unintelligent or inarticulate line is misplaced. Yes, he lacks the emotional intelligence or calmness to say what he should immediately after games and he needs to address that. But Bowyer clearly understands the game, he speaks well and thoughtfully in his weekly press conferences and other interviews. We all know the difficulties he had as a young man, and maybe he’s not ‘intelligent’ in a classic or academic away, but he’s a person who despite difficulties earlier in life sustained a long playing career at a high level and appears to have made good decisions with the money he earned from the game to carve out a sustainable future for himself and his family. Those are not the actions or behaviours of a person lacking in intelligence.
I’m a believer that you have to have a balance of strategy and culture in getting a business right. You can’t import a generic business model or successful leader from elsewhere and make it work in every context. The successful DNA of Charlton on the football side is a team of hardworking players, without many or any superstars, managed by an ex-player who ‘gets’ the club and its fanbase. Our last four promotions, going back over twenty years, were achieved with this model. That can’t be a coincidence, and I wonder if there are many or any other clubs with that record.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Bowyer goes, but we should be careful what we wish for. He is clearly not in a good emotional place at the moment. In my view Sangaard and others need to help him and support him through this, rather than showing him the door. As fans we need patience and to remember where we were. We may just have to accept this is a dead season, but at least we are not fearful for the future of the club anymore and the agony is only about what is happening on the pitch – how we would have wished for that just a few months ago and for the much of the last decade!
And that is the problem - we haven't been bringing in nobody's from Europe or Non-League. The players are all (or have been) decent for previous clubs - only Bogle can you say is playing above his station. The rest should be god enough to be top 6 - or at least giving teams a game. Most weeks we are second best and are usually on the back foot or chasing the game.