DOUCHER - "gallen and bowyer felt that the players we asked TS to sign would be good enough to guarantee top six."
When I questioned you where is your evidence for this statement you replied..
"this isn't a court case and i can't be arsed to find it but it was said - a far cry from the picture u have painted"
The reason for me raising this is that NO manager would "guarantee" a position in the table, as there are simply too many imponderables in football, such as injuries and suspensions (so I would argue that your recall is either imagined or flawed). Look what's happened to us after losing Innis, Famweo, Doughty and now Shinnie, Watson and previously Smyth, all to injuries and now Pratley to a suspension. The point I'm making is that this squad does not have the depth and breadth of quality that we had over the previous two seasons. We may have the numbers, but as I have already stated, like for like quality replacements are simply not there. That's because LB and SG had to assemble a 'make do' squad at short notice. And to reiterate it is a matter of public record that we missed out on a number of our first choice targets, simply because the takeover took place very late into the Summer transfer window. And this was at a time when most teams in the division had assembled their squads,prior to the punitive constraints of the salary cap being imposed by the EFL. That's why I will not judge this management team until after next Summer.
Precisely right. And they did a bloody good job assembling that “make do” squad, which bore immediate fruit with an amazing winning and clean sheet streak. But injures have taken away (long term) almost every key piece added. I think LB is not the finished article or the perfect manager and I would prefer he avoids public digging out of players but he’s done a damn good job since taking up the reins and was loyal to us when it would have been far easier and remunerative for him to move elsewhere. Regardless of whether we gain promotion this season (it would be an amazing feat on LB, JJ, SG and the players’ part if we do), like you, I won’t judge Bow until at least the fruits of his and SG’s work over a full summer window can be assessed, and I strongly suspect TS thinks likewise.
The top 6 thing was said, it wasn't figment of my imagination. My issues are about LB's team selections based on what he has to work with anyway.
DOUCHER - "gallen and bowyer felt that the players we asked TS to sign would be good enough to guarantee top six."
When I questioned you where is your evidence for this statement you replied..
"this isn't a court case and i can't be arsed to find it but it was said - a far cry from the picture u have painted"
The reason for me raising this is that NO manager would "guarantee" a position in the table, as there are simply too many imponderables in football, such as injuries and suspensions (so I would argue that your recall is either imagined or flawed). Look what's happened to us after losing Innis, Famweo, Doughty and now Shinnie, Watson and previously Smyth, all to injuries and now Pratley to a suspension. The point I'm making is that this squad does not have the depth and breadth of quality that we had over the previous two seasons. We may have the numbers, but as I have already stated, like for like quality replacements are simply not there. That's because LB and SG had to assemble a 'make do' squad at short notice. And to reiterate it is a matter of public record that we missed out on a number of our first choice targets, simply because the takeover took place very late into the Summer transfer window. And this was at a time when most teams in the division had assembled their squads, prior to the punitive constraints of the salary cap being imposed by the EFL. That's why I will not judge this management team until after next Summer.
If LB turns it around he keeps the job but a few more defeats and clueless displays then any arguments in his favour have gone. He is ex Charlton and has shown loyalty but that is all wearing a bit thin given the string of disorganised displays.
hoof_it_up_to_benty "He (LB) looks lost at present"
The only thing that is lost, and it has underpinned all of this disappointing run, is his first choice back line. Added to that their replacements are simply not good enough, effectively leaving the barn door wide open. LB's constant tinkering with the back line is a tacit admission that the breadth and depth of quality is simply not there in the current hastily assembled squad. After all he cannot make silk purses out of sows' ears.
Can people imagine the implosion on here if Bows hadn’t called out the performance in the post match on Friday??
It's a good point. I only read the text of his comments at first and it seemed like he was ranting again, but watching it back he was calm and measured. Maddison comment aside, I'm glad he said what he did.
Can people imagine the implosion on here if Bows hadn’t called out the performance in the post match on Friday??
I don't think a single fan has an issue with Bowyer calling out the teams performances at all. What many are getting bored of is publicly attacking individuals.
In fairness to Bowyer, the people he is calling out are bottling it. He also gave Pearce a roasting, unusually. He was pretty scathing about most of them and rightly so.
In fairness to Bowyer, the people he is calling out are bottling it. He also gave Pearce a roasting, unusually. He was pretty scathing about most of them and rightly so.
The question is whether it benefits anyone. Could Bowyer not have just told the press it was a very disappointing display and he was very angry with it? For me it all comes down to the players feelings. They shouldn't be upset they are getting criticism but if the public criticism is getting to them that is when it becomes a major issue.
In fairness to Bowyer, the people he is calling out are bottling it. He also gave Pearce a roasting, unusually. He was pretty scathing about most of them and rightly so.
The thing is it's Bowyer's job to get the best out of the underperforming players. Slagging them off and making ridiculous comments in post match interviews is not the way to go about it.
In fairness to Bowyer, the people he is calling out are bottling it. He also gave Pearce a roasting, unusually. He was pretty scathing about most of them and rightly so.
The question is whether it benefits anyone. Could Bowyer not have just told the press it was a very disappointing display and he was very angry with it? For me it all comes down to the players feelings. They shouldn't be upset they are getting criticism but if the public criticism is getting to them that is when it becomes a major issue.
I suppose Bowyer also knows himself now that if he suddenly stops mentioning players in the press, those who have already been called out will feel hard done by... Of course there are others that havent been mentioned that probably have gotten away with it a bit where we could ask why they're getting away without a public dressing down
Gilbey unfortunately being one of those where it is getting to the point now where I'd love to hear Bowyer's thoughts on his performances - Even if Bowyer thinks he's doing what he wants etc. would love to know what that is, as getting his actual insights into the opposition etc. have been something that I've really liked about him, right back that first game against Plymouth
All the criticism of Bows aside - my view is that amongst the guys that we have left fit and not suspended we don’t have any leaders. As soon as Pearce made the mistake there was no-one in the field to take the game by the scruff of the neck and control our response. Including Pearce.
We can all bemoan the fact we have had players in the past like Cullen that could do that but the fact remains, the team on Saturday was devoid of leaders when the going got tough.
You dont have to be the most vocal to be a leader and you can lead the side with your attitude, demeanour and desire to take the game to the opposition.
Its a good opportunity on Tuesday for someone to take the game by the scruff of the neck lead the side.
All the criticism of Bows aside - my view is that amongst the guys that we have left fit and not suspended we don’t have any leaders. As soon as Pearce made the mistake there was no-one in the field to take the game by the scruff of the neck and control our response. Including Pearce.
We can all bemoan the fact we have had players in the past like Cullen that could do that but the fact remains, the team on Saturday was devoid of leaders when the going got tough.
You dont have to be the most vocal to be a leader and you can lead the side with your attitude, demeanour and desire to take the game to the opposition.
Its a good opportunity on Tuesday for someone to take the game by the scruff of the neck lead the side.
Disappointing if so as could argue a few have had the Captaincy over the course of their careers
At a guess... Amos | Gunter | Oshilaja | Forster-Caskey | Gilbey | Washington
Whatever Bowyer says we judge him by results/performances - on the basis of that what he's doing isn't working of late. If he has a go at players and it works then we can say the tactic is a success.
I think we have try to walk in Bowyers shoes. Ask yourself some questions, did you think the game could go either way up until the first goal ? What was your reaction when your captain and senior professional gives a comedy goal away ? Did anyone think that when the substitutions were made those players would make a difference ? I did and they didn't. Its not the first time this has happened and whatever we think Bowyer won't put up with people bottling a tackle. I make him right.
I still say it is LB habit of changing sides every game, I know we have had injuries but when you compare with AS 18 players changed so far this season and we have changed the team with 58 players (the most in League 1), it must tell you something. If Watson and Pratley can play every game, then so should all the others, providing they are fit. You can see that AS were a team and as someone as already said, we play like a squad, always getting used to each other.
Just watched the Quest highlights, and Steve Wilson was commentating on our game. If you closed your eyes you could pretend we were in the Premier League and on MOTD
I think we have try to walk in Bowyers shoes. Ask yourself some questions, did you think the game could go either way up until the first goal ? What was your reaction when your captain and senior professional gives a comedy goal away ? Did anyone think that when the substitutions were made those players would make a difference ? I did and they didn't. Its not the first time this has happened and whatever we think Bowyer won't put up with people bottling a tackle. I make him right.
So do I. I expect 99% of fans too. With respect I think you and some other fans are missing the point though. It's not about whether Bowyer is right to feel how he does, it's about how he chooses to show that frustration/anger. More importantly, it's the ramifications of this on the players.
Don’t you love all the armchair critics on this board
calling for LB’s (and some even for SG’s) heads? They need a cold dose of reality,
rather than wallowing in some sense of Arsenal style fan entitlement. Let’s
deal with the facts.
In the Summer transfer window, having lost most of the squad
from the previous season, Lee and Steve were left with mostly unwanted scraps
to pick up in the market place. In most positions their 1st, 2nd,
and 3rd choices had gone, as players were no longer prepared to wait
to see (a) whether TS’s takeover would ever be completed and (b) that the
transfer embargo would be lifted. To top matters off when the club finally did
secure our heroic owner/saviour the league had, by then, imposed a financial
cap on all clubs in League 1 and below, effectively negating any positive financial
impact that TS could bring to the table.
People may argue why pick up these scraps? Well the answer
is quite simple, we would be heading for League 2 if we hadn’t, as we would be
relying heavily on our Under23s to get us through the season, many of whom
wouldn’t be able to make that step up and would have had their careers irreparably
damaged by having their respective confidences shattered. Yes, some would have
made the grade, but many wouldn’t simply because of the week in week out physical
demands of League 1.
In spite of having assembled a team of mostly 5th
rate choices LB has amazingly managed to steer his team towards the top end of
the table. It was achieved mostly on the back of having a physically imposing
backline in Innis and Famweo. They were ever presents in our 6 match winning
streak, when no goals were conceded, and having an attacking outlet in Alfie Doughty.
That back line, and Innis, in particular,
were also massive pluses in any set pieces in oppositions’ goalmouths. All three
players are out, having incurred long term injuries. And it is simply no surprise
that our form has dipped since they have disappeared. Pearce came back from a long
term injury and LB has had to juggle with his back line because of the absence of
his first choice centre backs.
More recently an injury to Watson, and with Pratley suspended,
has meant that much of the experience in this group has temporarily gone. We
are left with a lightweight midfield, with little energy, aggression or vision.
That’s not Lee’s fault. He’s been dealt a crap hand and I, for one, would not
be prepared to judge him until he has been able to assemble a proper squad of his
choosing. And that won’t happen in the current window. It will be in the
Summer.
Aside from this I love all of the snowflake comments about
throwing players under a bus, poor man management, bla bla bla, all out of an HR
manual. People forget that with full stadia players are mercilessly crucified
on a weekly basis if they fail to perform. A lot of them are simply too
comfortable in the current crowd free environments. Lee wouldn’t have to castigate
some of the players if there were crowds in place, they would be doing it for
him in a far more effective manner.
I equally love the ‘Lee’s lost the dressing room mantra’
that’s thrown up on a regular basis on this board. Throughout my entire career I
never once worked in a company where someone wasn’t having a pop at the management.
Disaffection is the norm in most organisations, unless of course you work in
Nirvana. So to hear that Player X said this, or Player Y has said that, cuts no
ice with me. People forget that professional football is a brutal sport, with
no room for failure. Do you think for one second that Alex Ferguson (THE exemplar
of success) was all sweetness and light? Hell no. He intimidated players,
scared them shitless when necessary. Lee is a pussycat by comparison. To
reiterate Lee is presiding over the legacy of previous failed ownerships and
because of Covid cannot redress the situation yet. Hopefully with the aid of
vaccines we will see the return of crowds by the beginning of next season and
the lifting of salary caps. Then, and only then, will I judge Lee.
Just out of interest, are you saying Lee bowyer is completely exempt from any criticism based on your comments above? Just because he has been loyal in a job he loves and probably gets paid quite well for doing it. (Lee has always said he only concerns himself with what he can control, the football side of things).Other managers succeed on terrible budgets and lesser players through their good management. I think maybe too many excuses are being trotted out from the pro bowyer side of this forum. I desperately want him to turn things around but at the moment he is doing a poor job, even if some of the excuses have some credence to them.He was able to produce when he was up against it, now he isn’t up against it ( other than injuries admittedly)so should be getting the job done. He got the team playing above themselves last season and nearly achieved probably a better thing in staying up than getting the promotion. That was his passion and good management at the time, Lee isn’t showing them qualities at the moment and blaming everyone else except himself.(in public anyway).
Am I to assume an’lol’ when I’ve not made a joke in my post means someone thinks I’m talking bollox, lol!, I think I’d prefer it if they actually wrote, your talking bollox!.😂😂 I only ever add opinion and sometimes ask the thinking behind some people’s comments because I enjoy reading everyone’s thoughts, although a lot of it is bollox!! Some posters on here do tend to take the moral high ground and think there words are the be all and end all. I thought the bases of the forum is to appreciate each other’s opinions whether we agree or not.Anyway I’m looking forward to the next run of wins so I can get the custard out to dip my cock in!! And maybe my bollox😂😂😜.
Take no notice Paul, for what its worth I think Bowyer has got problems but my feeling is its the players who are letting us down not him and yes I know they are his players.
In fairness to Bowyer, the people he is calling out are bottling it. He also gave Pearce a roasting, unusually. He was pretty scathing about most of them and rightly so.
If he wants to bollock individuals he can do it behind closed doors. He doesn't need to bollock them publicly to make us feel better. Doing it publicly will de-motivate most players. That's all that matters really.
In fairness to Bowyer, the people he is calling out are bottling it. He also gave Pearce a roasting, unusually. He was pretty scathing about most of them and rightly so.
If he wants to bollock individuals he can do it behind closed doors. He doesn't need to bollock them publicly to make us feel better. Doing it publicly will de-motivate most players. That's all that matters really.
Absolutely. If it got a positive reaction from the players fair enough, but I think it's quite clear it doesn't. I'm certainly intrigued to see if we can bounce back Tuesday.
Take no notice Paul, for what its worth I think Bowyer has got problems but my feeling is its the players who are letting us down not him and yes I know they are his players.
Hi Bailey, my comments are a bit tongue in cheek really, we all want the same thing. Absolutely the players have to take there fair share of criticism but I think collectively things need to get sorted and it has to be from bowyer, I’m just not sure he is accepting he is doing some things wrong.👍
The best thing Bowyer could have said on Friday was “Nothing” if he had come out and said “ I am so angry and disappointed in my side, I can’t comment until i have calmed down” that would have had a far greater impact on his team than the rant we got.
Interesting to hear what Jose Mourinho had to say before Spurs' FA Cup match against Marine today.
If Spurs lose a Premiership match it's down to him
If Spurs lost against Marine its down to the players.
I make him.about right on that one & something Lee Bowyer could do well thinking about when he looks at his team selections & tactics for the forthcoming matches.
Comments
He looks lost at present.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2021/jan/09/super-clubs-lack-patience-for-rookies-like-arteta-and-lampard-to-learn-on-job
Kind of relevant to the situation with Bows.
Slagging them off and making ridiculous comments in post match interviews is not the way to go about it.
Gilbey unfortunately being one of those where it is getting to the point now where I'd love to hear Bowyer's thoughts on his performances - Even if Bowyer thinks he's doing what he wants etc. would love to know what that is, as getting his actual insights into the opposition etc. have been something that I've really liked about him, right back that first game against Plymouth
At a guess... Amos | Gunter | Oshilaja | Forster-Caskey | Gilbey | Washington
I got two although one, a Palace fan, managed to mess the joke up.
If Spurs lose a Premiership match it's down to him
If Spurs lost against Marine its down to the players.
I make him.about right on that one & something Lee Bowyer could do well thinking about when he looks at his team selections & tactics for the forthcoming matches.