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POST-MATCH THREAD: Charlton v Accrington | Fri 8 Jan 2021

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  • Croydon said:
    DOUCHER said:
    he's chucked williams and maddison under the bus again but they are the solution, not the problem 
    If Williams and Maddison are the answer, we really are screwed.
    Thankfully, they're obviously not, though we'll need to be realistic and lower expectations until Inniss, Famewo, Shinnie and Watson or Pratley return.
    Jonnie's only interested in playing for Wales and sadly does an impersonation of a headless chicken when he plays for us these days.
    Maddison has become unwelcome at every other club he's played for. He was an option to pursue when we were desperate (last season) but it was a big mistake to go through with him with TS installed. Bow thought he could get through to him. He patently can't and maybe isn't get through-able to.
    Did you watch us against Wimbledon? Those 2 ran the show when they came on.

    Makes me laugh that Maddison gets slammed for his attitude when Bowyer spend TWO windows chasing him. Surely if there was a problem, and I'm not saying there is, he should have known!



    Yeap, and every minute he's played for us.
    A great goal that day but that's been his only moment of worth (and it's notable it involved no other team member) he's worn red.
    Has to go.
    Plymouth was the game he scored in - Wimbledon he came on and changed the game, certainly more than Williams for me

    He did then start the next game at Swindon (played 72-mins), put in the good ball that Bogle fluffed and that was it
    LOL. Cheers @ForeverAddickted
    I'd obviously dozed off.
  • DOUCHER said:
    he's chucked williams and maddison under the bus again but they are the solution, not the problem 
    If Williams and Maddison are the answer, we really are screwed.
    Thankfully, they're obviously not, though we'll need to be realistic and lower expectations until Inniss, Famewo, Shinnie and Watson or Pratley return.
    Jonnie's only interested in playing for Wales and sadly does an impersonation of a headless chicken when he plays for us these days.
    Maddison has become unwelcome at every other club he's played for. He was an option to pursue when we were desperate (last season) but it was a big mistake to go through with him with TS installed. Bow thought he could get through to him. He patently can't and maybe isn't get through-able to.
    Not sure Peterborough fans complained too much when he got 100 odd goals/assists in 250 appearances over 6 years. 
    Yeah, managers there must have been deluded or thick to have been playing him week in, week out. Bowyer is a genius & knows better than those idiots. 
  • He bottled a tackle Chunes when the manager we have wants total commitment from everyone in the team and finds bottling out of tackles a sin of the highest order. I think that some of us agree with Bowyer others don't. We all think that our players should play for the shirt, question is that Maddison in Bowyer's eyes thinks he isn't. I agree with Bowyer.
  • Croydon said:
    DOUCHER said:
    he's chucked williams and maddison under the bus again but they are the solution, not the problem 
    If Williams and Maddison are the answer, we really are screwed.
    Thankfully, they're obviously not, though we'll need to be realistic and lower expectations until Inniss, Famewo, Shinnie and Watson or Pratley return.
    Jonnie's only interested in playing for Wales and sadly does an impersonation of a headless chicken when he plays for us these days.
    Maddison has become unwelcome at every other club he's played for. He was an option to pursue when we were desperate (last season) but it was a big mistake to go through with him with TS installed. Bow thought he could get through to him. He patently can't and maybe isn't get through-able to.
    Did you watch us against Wimbledon? Those 2 ran the show when they came on.

    Makes me laugh that Maddison gets slammed for his attitude when Bowyer spend TWO windows chasing him. Surely if there was a problem, and I'm not saying there is, he should have known!



    Yeap, and every minute he's played for us.
    A great goal that day but that's been his only moment of worth (and it's notable it involved no other team member) he's worn red.
    Has to go.
    Maddison didn't score against Wimbledon. You're thinking of Plymouth.

    2-1 down at HT to AFCW, we go attacking in the second half and were simply unstoppable in a 5-2 win.

    Too many on here creating personal issues with Maddison based on absolutely fuck all evidence.
  • DOUCHER said:
    he's chucked williams and maddison under the bus again but they are the solution, not the problem 
    If Williams and Maddison are the answer, we really are screwed.
    Thankfully, they're obviously not, though we'll need to be realistic and lower expectations until Inniss, Famewo, Shinnie and Watson or Pratley return.
    Jonnie's only interested in playing for Wales and sadly does an impersonation of a headless chicken when he plays for us these days.
    Maddison has become unwelcome at every other club he's played for. He was an option to pursue when we were desperate (last season) but it was a big mistake to go through with him with TS installed. Bow thought he could get through to him. He patently can't and maybe isn't get through-able to.
    did paulo di canio or claus jensen go steaming into 50/50 tackles? did we want them to? don't sign flair players if you don't want them - if you want 11 defensive players on the pitch, that's a training exercise 
  • Croydon said:
    DOUCHER said:
    he's chucked williams and maddison under the bus again but they are the solution, not the problem 
    If Williams and Maddison are the answer, we really are screwed.
    Thankfully, they're obviously not, though we'll need to be realistic and lower expectations until Inniss, Famewo, Shinnie and Watson or Pratley return.
    Jonnie's only interested in playing for Wales and sadly does an impersonation of a headless chicken when he plays for us these days.
    Maddison has become unwelcome at every other club he's played for. He was an option to pursue when we were desperate (last season) but it was a big mistake to go through with him with TS installed. Bow thought he could get through to him. He patently can't and maybe isn't get through-able to.
    Did you watch us against Wimbledon? Those 2 ran the show when they came on.

    Makes me laugh that Maddison gets slammed for his attitude when Bowyer spend TWO windows chasing him. Surely if there was a problem, and I'm not saying there is, he should have known!


    How did they perform in training after that game? - Training isnt everything but we know Bowyer wont put up with slacking or as AFKA said on another thread if they're showing up late

    If they're then swanning around the place thinking they've saved us against Wimbledon and dont have to work then they shouldnt be starting week in / week out
    I'd say we're placing far too much emphasis on training then. Sounds like the squad gets to Friday with no idea who's playing. 

    Curbs called it right the other week. You have a set starting 11, bar injuries, so when you come into training on a Monday you already know who's playing Saturday. That way, everyone can train that week on the match ahead knowing their job.

    It worked well for Bowyer in our promotion season, but it was forced on him by injuries. Doesn't look as though we'd have gone up if he'd had the options to tinker.
  • Croydon said:
    Croydon said:
    DOUCHER said:
    he's chucked williams and maddison under the bus again but they are the solution, not the problem 
    If Williams and Maddison are the answer, we really are screwed.
    Thankfully, they're obviously not, though we'll need to be realistic and lower expectations until Inniss, Famewo, Shinnie and Watson or Pratley return.
    Jonnie's only interested in playing for Wales and sadly does an impersonation of a headless chicken when he plays for us these days.
    Maddison has become unwelcome at every other club he's played for. He was an option to pursue when we were desperate (last season) but it was a big mistake to go through with him with TS installed. Bow thought he could get through to him. He patently can't and maybe isn't get through-able to.
    Did you watch us against Wimbledon? Those 2 ran the show when they came on.

    Makes me laugh that Maddison gets slammed for his attitude when Bowyer spend TWO windows chasing him. Surely if there was a problem, and I'm not saying there is, he should have known!


    How did they perform in training after that game? - Training isnt everything but we know Bowyer wont put up with slacking or as AFKA said on another thread if they're showing up late

    If they're then swanning around the place thinking they've saved us against Wimbledon and dont have to work then they shouldnt be starting week in / week out
    I'd say we're placing far too much emphasis on training then. Sounds like the squad gets to Friday with no idea who's playing. 

    Curbs called it right the other week. You have a set starting 11, bar injuries, so when you come into training on a Monday you already know who's playing Saturday. That way, everyone can train that week on the match ahead knowing their job.

    It worked well for Bowyer in our promotion season, but it was forced on him by injuries. Doesn't look as though we'd have gone up if he'd had the options to tinker.
    A bit like this season then with Shinnie | Inniss | Famewo | Doughty being absent with long term problems, and now Watson

    Unfortunately Bowyer doesnt seem to be able to find a reliable or trustworthy alternative when finding someone to replace them
  • Curbs may have known his starting eleven but I can tell you the players didn't know. And in the event of someone like Parker, Kiely or Bartlett being certain starters, they still had to show out in training.
  • edited January 2021
    The thing is @bobmunro LB hasn’t come through the man management charm school that many on here will have experienced either as a boss or an employee. That doesn’t excuse the naming of players in public which I don’t condone. 

    However neither do I condone players who hide, bottle challenges or fail to give 100% and there was too many of those out there last night. Something has to give to get this show back on the road or for us addicks train back on the tracks (choo choo 🚂). My hope is that Bowyer will find a way with some guidance from TS but if he can’t then a parting of the ways seems inevitable.
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  • Chunes said:
    Was Maddison even that bad? He got involved, was direct, hit a lovely ball for Smith, drove into the box. Don't see what he did that deserved being called out. Our problem is we don't give him the ball more. 
    bowyer's entire post match interview was about defending his selections in previous matches - was calm in dressing room as wasn't his team - his team is watson and pratley - apologised for putting maddison and williams on as we got worse - implying thats why they don't start - said chucks did well but again implying he can only do 45 mins - all his decisons have therefore been right in the past and when pratlet, watson, shinnie, innis and famewho? are back, we will start winning again - that was what he was trying to convey and in doing so, defend himself - what he has also done is alienate another chunk of the squad - ever decreasing circles i believe the term is  
  • RedChaser said:
    The thing is @bobmunro LB hasn’t come through the man management charm school that many on here will have experienced either as a boss or an employee. That doesn’t excuse the naming of players in public which I don’t condone. 

    However neither do I condone players who hide, bottle challenges of fail to give 100% and there was too many of those out there last night. Something has to give to get this show back on the road or for us addicks train back on the tracks (choo choo 🚂) my hope is that Bowyer will find a way with some guidance from TS but if he can’t then a parting of the ways seems inevitable.
    Do any of us know just how Sandgaard is thinking?

     - Is he thinking along our lines that Bowyer is running out of time
     - Is he agreeing with Bowyer that some of his employees are after an easy pay cheque
     - Is Bowyer pulling the wool over his eyes with the pre-match chats he has with him

    In terms of point two even I'd hope that Sandgaard could quietly talk to Bowyer, asking him to tone down interviews where he admits he doesnt care if a player isnt injured or not

    But apart from that he could be watching these games himself and instead of being on the phone telling Bowyer to pack his bags

    Could well be asking why we're letting the likes of Williams | Maddison | Bogle (calm down, just three players Bowyer has slagged off of late) take up places in the Salary Cap?
  • DOUCHER said:
    Chunes said:
    Was Maddison even that bad? He got involved, was direct, hit a lovely ball for Smith, drove into the box. Don't see what he did that deserved being called out. Our problem is we don't give him the ball more. 
    bowyer's entire post match interview was about defending his selections in previous matches - was calm in dressing room as wasn't his team - his team is watson and pratley - apologised for putting maddison and williams on as we got worse - implying thats why they don't start - said chucks did well but again implying he can only do 45 mins - all his decisons have therefore been right in the past and when pratlet, watson, shinnie, innis and famewho? are back, we will start winning again - that was what he was trying to convey and in doing so, defend himself - what he has also done is alienate another chunk of the squad - ever decreasing circles i believe the term is  
    And you can't exactly say we looked good when Pratley and Watson were playing in the midfield together. 
  • For me he has enough credit in the bank to be given the season. Got us into playoffs in first season with a threadbare squad. Got us promoted with the same. Almost kept us up when we spent 8 weeks playing kids as everyone was injured.
    This is genuinely the first time I feel we've had a bad run under him and people want him out already. Like all I was gutted last night, especially second half when I thought we'd come out all guns blazing and instead surrendered. The subs didn't seem interested, I like MM, he's a left footed maverick which I have a penchant for given my username. But before his injury I was shouting at the TV as he was strolling around and he was pulling out of tackles. Not 50/50 tackles either, he just didn't fancy it. Yes Bowyer shouldn't have made the comment about the injury but we all say things in the heat of the moment,  and you can't question how much Lee cares for the club.
    We don't have a divine right to win this league, but there are still 26 games to go, players to come back, and I still think Bowyer is the right man for the job. 
  • There is one other thing, and it was eluded to by the opposing manager. What would have been Pearce, Maddison, Williams, Gilbey performance and decision making if there were 17000 fans ready to rip into them. Look at Millwall's season, without their fans to push them to wins at home they have been dropping points at an alarming rate. Because of lockdown certain players can hide and not get pelters.
  • edited January 2021
    DOUCHER said:
    DOUCHER said:
    he's chucked williams and maddison under the bus again but they are the solution, not the problem 
    If Williams and Maddison are the answer, we really are screwed.
    Thankfully, they're obviously not, though we'll need to be realistic and lower expectations until Inniss, Famewo, Shinnie and Watson or Pratley return.
    Jonnie's only interested in playing for Wales and sadly does an impersonation of a headless chicken when he plays for us these days.
    Maddison has become unwelcome at every other club he's played for. He was an option to pursue when we were desperate (last season) but it was a big mistake to go through with him with TS installed. Bow thought he could get through to him. He patently can't and maybe isn't get through-able to.
    did paulo di canio or claus jensen go steaming into 50/50 tackles? did we want them to? don't sign flair players if you don't want them - if you want 11 defensive players on the pitch, that's a training exercise 
    How depressing that our first choice midfield is two 35-year-old defensive cloggers. What a season this is going to be. Wake me up when it's all over.
  • DOUCHER said:
    Chunes said:
    Was Maddison even that bad? He got involved, was direct, hit a lovely ball for Smith, drove into the box. Don't see what he did that deserved being called out. Our problem is we don't give him the ball more. 
    bowyer's entire post match interview was about defending his selections in previous matches - was calm in dressing room as wasn't his team - his team is watson and pratley - apologised for putting maddison and williams on as we got worse - implying thats why they don't start - said chucks did well but again implying he can only do 45 mins - all his decisons have therefore been right in the past and when pratlet, watson, shinnie, innis and famewho? are back, we will start winning again - that was what he was trying to convey and in doing so, defend himself - what he has also done is alienate another chunk of the squad - ever decreasing circles i believe the term is  
    And you can't exactly say we looked good when Pratley and Watson were playing in the midfield together. 
    no, we were rubbish then as well 
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  • The difference between a side that went 6 games unbeaten and without conceding to now is simple:
    We've lost 3 of the key players brought in after TS took over: Inniss, Famewo & Shinnie.
    Take out Watson and Pratley as well and the spine of the team is severely weakened, in terms of both formation and bottle.
    Lack of strength at the heart of the defence and midfield and a constantly changing team and formation has left Gunter and Maaatsen (clearly decent players) exposed and prone to mistakes they simply weren't making 2 months ago.
    Until Millar arrived, having lost Doughty, we had no one who is able and prepared to repeatedly take on and beat a player. Shinnie's ability to thread a pass became vital to (and the only consistent means of) getting our forwards in behind the oppo defence.
    No coincidence therefore that when we lost him, our goal threat diminished significantly and left our forwards (otherwise decent players, if not worldbeaters) without any consistent creative support.
    A midfield of any permutation and formation of Gilbey (who can be invisible at times), Morgan (still obviously inexperienced), JFC (truthfully a squad player and no more), Williams and Maddison (neither looking a good fit for us right now) simply not up to either the defensive or creative job and with precious little bite to stifle the oppo in midfield.  
    Has LB contributed to the problem with chopping and changing the team and formation? Yes. He has to take a large measure of blame for trying too many different ideas in search of a way of compensating for the lost key players. He's not succeeded and it's left otherwise decent players looking confused and like they've only just met one another. 
    Do I think it's a good idea for LB to dig individual players out in public? No, but I have zero doubt that he says precisely what he says in public to them privately (and a dash more!) and I don't expect him to be the consummate all round perfect manager. What he does is what he's always done - give it 110% for his club and I want him to demand the same from his players. I hope that TS will put a metaphorical arm round Bow and, with SG and JJ's help, start reshaping the personnel and rebuilding the morale of the dressing room.  
    Do I think LB should go? Absolutely not. If the choice is between LB going and Williams and Maddison going, then it's a 100% bye-bye Jonnie and Marcus from me and a bye-bye to any other player who doesn't like the heat in the kitchen and isn't (for whatever reason) prepared to give the 110% that LB has always given for CAFC. 
    I'd be amazed if TS thinks much differently to this and I believe he's fully prepared for us to miss out this season if that's how it pans out.
    Short of digging out TS himself, I expect LB to still be here at the start of next season and I for one will be very glad of that.
     Thank you Peanuts I really enjoyed that post and I agree with you. I’ve just highlighted the section that I think is my take away. LB clearly has a certain culture that he has built within the club and that’s fundamental at this level to achieving success and the players have to buy in to it 100%, if they don’t it falls apart. Bowyer wears his heart on his sleeve and always has done, he maybe needs to try and tone down some of the more extreme comments in public, but outside of that lets back him to get it right over the next 12 months.
  • There is always the mathematics to consider.
    Given that no game is a free pass, based on my personal theory that you win every home game and draw every away game if you do that you get 92 points. Easily good enough for most years to get promotion.
    So at the moment we are four points behind that target or rate.
    It can be back on track (yes I know, don't laugh too loud) if we win our next four games.
    That means winning on Tuesday at home to Rochdale, then next Saturday away at Bristol Rovers, the following Tuesday away at Peterborough and round off the sequence on January 23rd at home to Swindon.
    That run would certainly turn things around, and also mean the subsequent game away at MKD need only be a draw.
    Basically we need to go on a run starting now, it is not all lost...yet.
  • Then again we're not safe from relegation yet.
  • Scoham said:
    Most results come down to small margins and we have so many issues at the moment that it’s not surprising we’re struggling.

    We don’t have a settled team, formation and style of play. Some reasons for this include:

     1. Too many players who aren’t fit enough to play regularly. Look back at promotion winning squad and you’ll find several players made 30/40+ league starts.

    2. Creative players who aren’t trusted so they never get a run of games, we’ll never see the best of them which is needed to develop that settled style of play. Williams and Maddison are both 27, they’re not going to drastically improve the defensive side of their game.

    3. A manager more concerned with stopping the opposition. In the past Bowyer’s tweaks were effective. Now he looks like he’s trying to stumble upon something that works - we seem to be switching between a diamond, 3-5-2, 4-3-3 and 4-4-2 with each game. At least it looked like a much more normal line up last night, no Matthews at left back or Maatsen at right midfield.

    4. Injuries to key players - Inniss, Famewo, Shinnie and Doughty. The original plan was to mainly use 4-3-3 - Pratley and Watson in front of Inniss and Famewo made us very hard to break down and strong defensively. Doughty gave us a pacey outlet which meant we could either get in behind teams if they pushed up or it would create space for us if they sat deeper. Fewer injuries or injuries to different players would have seen us stick with this plan and things could have been very different. Any club would find it harder with four important players out.

    5. Players not wanted by the manager. It’s become clear JFC and Williams took up their optional contract extensions rather than Bowyer choosing to keep them. He’d also sell Oshilaja if he could and despite signing him I’m sure he’d happily get rid of Bogle too. There may be more on the list that aren’t so obvious, Purrington for example. Last night he talked about wanting to shake it up - the players must have known that and it can’t help them put in their maximum for the club and Bowyer.

    6. All of the above means the chances and goals are drying up. We created some chances last night but how many were ones you’d expect to score, rather than those you’d expect a goalkeeper to save? With Inniss out we also don’t threaten enough from set pieces, he’s either our target or a player who the opposition focus on which creates space for others.

    7. We’re now on a long poor run of form, the players know it. At 2-0 down I had given up and knew we weren’t coming back. The players aren’t looking confident and happy, and I don’t see Bowyer regularly criticising individuals in public helping that.

    We have 26 games to scrape together 20 or so points to ensure we’re in this league as a minimum next season.

    With the contract situation and five loans we’ll have another huge rebuild in the summer. Hopefully the last major one for many years. I’d even seriously consider letting good players like Aneke go because he doesn’t appear capable of playing 90 minutes, never mind making 40+ starts over a season.

    I’m sure there will be a lot more improvements behind the scenes to resolve some of the issues - reducing injuries, expanding our scouting network to look at more players etc which will all help.

    Thinking ahead to next season Sandgaard has a big decision to make that I feel is best made over the next few weeks, either:

    1. Bowyer is the right man and simply doesn’t have a good enough squad, including too many players who know they’re only here until the summer. I wouldn’t completely write him off, on the other hand he may need to accept that with the salary cap it’s very difficult to find quality attacking and creative players who also work hard, are very fit and don’t mind a tackle.

    2. Get a new manager in so he has time to evaluate the squad and make plans for next season. Leaving it until May is far too late and will see yet another squad scraped together right up until deadline day, much like we saw this season and under Slade.

    Whatever happens in the summer the plan has got be to see a squad put together just like we did in 2011, with the majority on 2/3 year contracts.

    That squad had a great balance - a core of solid reliable players for this league (Jackson, Taylor, Hollands, Hayes), younger players on the up (Wiggins, Stepehens, Green, Evina), good undervalued players needing a move to rebuild their careers (Kermorgant, Morrison, Cort), include any academy players ready to step up (Solly, Wagstaff) and the odd experienced player as cover and as a good character around the squad (Hughes, Euell).

    We don’t have that anything like that at the moment and it’s not going to be put together in this window.

    The question is do you trust Bowyer to do it?
    there was a man sitting in the sky studio last night who did it - CP -  having said that , was paul cook the wigan manager last year? TS must be well aware of him and the impressive attacking performances and his previous record seeing as he was looking to buy wigan - coincidence he was in the studio and being touted for sheff wed? attempt to get us to step in? 
  • We were outfought, not necessarily outplayed by a well organised hungry outfit who did not stop from the first minute , the way they pressurised our defenders showed they meant business, and although their goalkeeper played well the saves were generally routine.
    Yet if you compared our team sheet to theirs there should have been only one winner.
    So where does the blame lie?High energy football will get you out of this league and on paper the team he picked last night should have fitted the bill but it was no better than last week.I hate to say it because LB has been fantastic for us but we need a change otherwise it is going to be mid table or worse 
  • Doucher, was that an attempt to start a rumour thread lol. 
  • edited January 2021
    Bailey said:
    Curbs may have known his starting eleven but I can tell you the players didn't know. And in the event of someone like Parker, Kiely or Bartlett being certain starters, they still had to show out in training.
    That completely contradicts what he said on Valley Pass 2 weeks ago though, at least when discussing the Div One winning side.
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