I get Kirk isn't perfect... But seems crazy you want to get rid of our biggest contributor to goals on loan or a free transfer, that is mad!! What other club will want to do that.. Clearly he is popular around the club and with team mates as well.. Would be a mistake to let him go
The problem now is the fact that Holden has come in, and in our last couple of games, we've gone back to 3-5-2
That formation doesnt work for any of our wingers, Kirk may be able to adapt like Leuth says, with him in the No.10 role - But once again we're a mess, we've made rigid signings for a 4-4-2 | 4-3-3... and are already changing setup to something that three / four players are useless in.
Interestingly, Kirk has played a part in more goals than any other player this season He 3 goals and 4 assists this season so far from 1193 minutes on the pitch
Statistic as often ignore the rest of the picture. He generally plays a position where the other part of the game is non existent and out ways the good part of his game.
I wonder what his stats are for hiding in a game.
But what is his position in the team? It is to create and score goals right?
Good question because the last 4 managers couldn't find the answer to that one.
Started more times than not for Garner.!
So the manager who left us in 18th position is the endorsement for a player who is on the wing most of the time yet not a winger. I grant you Kirk does have some good attributes but I would wager his lack of involvement during a game is to the detriment of the team.
Perhaps if we had a strong all round balanced team he might have been the cherry on top. Unfortunately CAFC don't have. Perhaps that's why your stats comparing him to the other non creative crap makes him come out on top on 1 aspect of the stats.
You asked the questions about the last 4 managers.. And Garner started him more often and not... Garner wasn't the issue, him and TS fell out, knew what was coming!
The game has changed, you don't have up and down wingers that hog the touch line.!
I get Kirk isn't perfect... But seems crazy you want to get rid of our biggest contributor to goals on loan or a free transfer, that is mad!! What other club will want to do that.. Clearly he is popular around the club and with team mates as well.. Would be a mistake to let him go
The problem now is the fact that Holden has come in, and in our last couple of games, we've gone back to 3-5-2
That formation doesnt work for any of our wingers, Kirk may be able to adapt like Leuth says, with him in the No.10 role - But once again we're a mess, we've made rigid signings for a 4-4-2 | 4-3-3... and are already changing setup to something that three / four players are useless in.
100% this.. And this goes back to why he wouldn't have played under other managers... the recruitment wasn't right. Not 100% sure 10 role in this formation would suit him.. He is best in a 3 up the top, cutting in.
The problem with Kirk is he has no pace - He's probably the best winger we have at putting the ball into the box, but he's not an explosive player, so wont, and cant take on the Full-Back and beat him in a race, so he'll never be the type of player to get you out of your seat as you watch him make something happen.
What worked for him at Crewe, was the fact that Pickering had the pace from Full-Back, he'd overlap, take the Full-Back with him and leave Kirk the space to whip the ball into the box. Either that or Pickering would do it himself.
Basically their version of Wiggins and Jackson
Now since we've had Kirk, who have we had thats replicated the Pickering role? - Sessegnon has come closest, but as everyone berates, he has to cut back on to his right foot when he does go forward (Although as we saw on Boxing Day, it seems Holden preferred him hanging back, with Clare as the attacking Wing-Back) which slows down our attack.
Once again the larger issue is the fact that the Recruitment team looked at Charlie as a signing and thought... Yup he has the qualities to make us a better team - Unfortunately it feels as though they didnt look at the bigger picture, and work out why it worked so well for him at Crewe.
This summary is pretty much on the money why he did well at Crewe.
Yes he does have some skill but I would dispute he is a winger. As stated he doesn't have pace but nor does he have the ability to go round anyone with trickery either. You would think he might be able to fill the whole behind 2 strikers to create but you need movement to find space. He always seems to static.
I get Kirk isn't perfect... But seems crazy you want to get rid of our biggest contributor to goals on loan or a free transfer, that is mad!! What other club will want to do that.. Clearly he is popular around the club and with team mates as well.. Would be a mistake to let him go
I am in the loan out, if we need to create space in the squad (which is by no means a certainty), camp.
Why? Because I don't see how you get him on the pitch long enough to make it worth keeping him. That might change in the summer with a better put together squad, it might not, but giving him away or selling him for a massive loss now does seem a bit strange.
Kirk's attitude seems wrong. He stands around on the wing, watching an opponent with the ball ten yards away. He should sprint and block - even Simon Church was willing to do that. To think, we tracked Kirk for months and paid good money for him. He's either a bit dim or been Charltonised - or both.
Kirk is still head and shoulders the best winger we have at the club , his assist rate is better than Raki and CBT .. and has started to chip in with a few goals … I would have Kirk ahead of the other two every day of the week
Interestingly, Kirk has played a part in more goals than any other player this season He 3 goals and 4 assists this season so far from 1193 minutes on the pitch
Statistic as often ignore the rest of the picture. He generally plays a position where the other part of the game is non existent and out ways the good part of his game.
I wonder what his stats are for hiding in a game.
But what is his position in the team? It is to create and score goals right?
Good question because the last 4 managers couldn't find the answer to that one.
Started more times than not for Garner.!
So the manager who left us in 18th position is the endorsement for a player who is on the wing most of the time yet not a winger. I grant you Kirk does have some good attributes but I would wager his lack of involvement during a game is to the detriment of the team.
Perhaps if we had a strong all round balanced team he might have been the cherry on top. Unfortunately CAFC don't have. Perhaps that's why your stats comparing him to the other non creative crap makes him come out on top on 1 aspect of the stats.
You asked the questions about the last 4 managers.. And Garner started him more often and not... Garner wasn't the issue, him and TS fell out, knew what was coming!
The game has changed, you don't have up and down wingers that hog the touch line.!
The point was, of the 4 managers they all tried Kirk in other positions when it wasn't working out for him in a wide position with out much luck. Even Garner who admittedly said 'he liked Kirk as a player' didn't have him successfully performing on a consistent basis.
Yes I am aware football has changed but if you are playing 3 up as England do for instance the players that can play as out & out wingers (Saka & Sterling) still provide pace or trickery as attributes to get beyond the central striker. So to me Kirk doesn't have that so no he is not a winger deployed as a one of front 3 players.
My comments this morning are critical about Kirk but the reality is I have no axe per say to grind against him other than he hasn't delivered and I personally don't think he is right for us as the type of player he is.
To be fair we have less skillful players that are supposed to be creative players but you have to look at piecing the jigsaw together on a budget. Therefore I think we need players that are less restrictive than Kirk.
I accept there are different opinions on certain players but how long are you going to keep waiting for a solution to finding the position for Kirk. If it were my call, I would make a decision now if a club were willing to take him even if it were on loan.
Kirk admitted he needed to work harder when he was dropped. If we don't see him working, then he is clearly not bothering to keep up to the standards asked for...which he has declared himself.
Interestingly, Kirk has played a part in more goals than any other player this season He 3 goals and 4 assists this season so far from 1193 minutes on the pitch
Statistic as often ignore the rest of the picture. He generally plays a position where the other part of the game is non existent and out ways the good part of his game.
I wonder what his stats are for hiding in a game.
But what is his position in the team? It is to create and score goals right?
Your comment reminds me of something Jack Grealish said prior to the season starting.
He said a lot of people thought he didnt justify his price tag last season, based on the lack of stats
But in his eyes he was getting involved because there were countless times where he was setting up the bloke who got the assist for the goal. Or there would have been chances he did create but it doesnt go down as anything, because the bloke on the other end of the cross wasn't putting the effort away.
Now lets look at that, who is the bloke at the end of the cross... Oh yes... the equally loved Jayden Stockley...
That's a good point. At the start of the season, he put 4-5 superb crosses right on Jayden's head that were clear-cut chances and Jayden put them straight at the keeper.
Maybe Kirk is not the kind of player we want when we're fighting relegation or in a bad run of form, but he can create more than anyone else in this team (and at times in this league), the stats don't lie there. Unfortunately he's also the least 'Charlton-like' player we've got, in that he doesn't work particularly hard and hates a tackle. (I don't think I've ever seen CBT make a tackle either, but he gets away with it for being more 'exciting.')
Players with that lack of work ethic will stand out and rightly get criticism when we're in need of backs-to-walls, diehard attitudes to pull us out of trouble.
It's what winds me up about these L1 players. They don't push themselves. If Charlie suddenly found his aggressive streak, played every game as if it was his last, pressed like a maniac and tackled hard, he'd be a Championship player without a doubt. But he seems happy where he is, plodding along.
Probably not going to work out for him here, especially with the 352. Another symptom of our smorgasboard approach to recruitment. But even with this all being said, I still don't think he's a dud, not with the chances he creates.
if this months manager is going to play 3-4-1-2, maybe Kirk should be the one behind the front 2. If he does well then great! We can't change anything/bring anyone in for a few games so why not give him a go?
I agree that he is in the last chance saloon now and if he doesn't up his game, then we should look to move him on. I would say that he is in the same boat as 6-7 other players. I think moving on the under performing players is at least a two transfer window task.
Interestingly, Kirk has played a part in goals this season, he is level with JRS, but less minutes nearly 300 minutes less He 3 goals and 4 assists this season so far from 1193 minutes on the pitch
Interesting looking at that. He has more goals than our centre forward and more assists than anyone, so is he really as bad as people make out?
I completely get all the opinions that he isn't cut out to be a winger, he doesn't look interested, and he's certainly not one you'd want in the trenches but if a manager was prepared to accept he will offer nothing defensively and gave him a free role maybe as a number 10, then he'd probably be quite good.
I don't imagine Holden will be doing that though, so i can see him leaving.
Unfortunately he’s getting the Darren Ambrose treatment. Our fans for whatever reason just don’t take to this kind of player.
Imagine seeing Messi playing his walking football in SE7 around the pitch and you’d probably still see the cries of ‘shirker’.
Kirk will end up leaving, the majority of fans will say they’re pleased to see the back of him. And then he’ll go on to play hundreds of games elsewhere, get loads of goals and assists and be loved by fans at his new club in Surrey.
Okay. Football can be played on a chart when the sample size is large. This is not. This is 3 goals and 4 assists. Kirk's generally done very, very poorly because he's not been able to impact the game, especially from the wing, where full-backs dominate him. The evidence is before our eyes.
Okay. Football can be played on a chart when the sample size is large. This is not. This is 3 goals and 4 assists. Kirk's generally done very, very poorly because he's not been able to impact the game, especially from the wing, where full-backs dominate him. The evidence is before our eyes.
The best objective evidence of whether a winger can impact a game is surely told through goals, assists and chances created...
I think Charlie's career stats (large sample size) will be up there with the best in the league.
Personally I don't care that Kirk isn't the hardest working, he's not an all action CM. But he doesn't show his quality enough so having a passenger without the benefits is something we could do with avoiding.
I get Kirk isn't perfect... But seems crazy you want to get rid of our biggest contributor to goals on loan or a free transfer, that is mad!! What other club will want to do that.. Clearly he is popular around the club and with team mates as well.. Would be a mistake to let him go
The problem now is the fact that Holden has come in, and in our last couple of games, we've gone back to 3-5-2
That formation doesnt work for any of our wingers, Kirk may be able to adapt like Leuth says, with him in the No.10 role - But once again we're a mess, we've made rigid signings for a 4-4-2 | 4-3-3... and are already changing setup to something that three / four players are useless in.
Absolutely this. We attempted to build a 433 squad under Adkins, then Jacko came in and went 352. We then went back to the 433 for Garner and now back again to 352. I know you have to bring in players to suit the managers system because you don't plan to fail but like you say, it's a mess. The only hope is that we don't have long to go to January because if we're going 352 we desperately need a wing-back, centre-back and striker or two.
Okay. Football can be played on a chart when the sample size is large. This is not. This is 3 goals and 4 assists. Kirk's generally done very, very poorly because he's not been able to impact the game, especially from the wing, where full-backs dominate him. The evidence is before our eyes.
The best objective evidence of whether a winger can impact a game is surely told through goals, assists and chances created...
I think Charlie's career stats (large sample size) will be up there with the best in the league.
His best work was as part of a front 2 in Garner's desperation formation change. Sadly I can't see Holden playing him ahead of even Kanu as he just won't press as he wants
Okay. Football can be played on a chart when the sample size is large. This is not. This is 3 goals and 4 assists. Kirk's generally done very, very poorly because he's not been able to impact the game, especially from the wing, where full-backs dominate him. The evidence is before our eyes.
The best objective evidence of whether a winger can impact a game is surely told through goals, assists and chances created...
I think Charlie's career stats (large sample size) will be up there with the best in the league.
His best work was as part of a front 2 in Garner's desperation formation change. Sadly I can't see Holden playing him ahead of even Kanu as he just won't press as he wants
He certainly doesn't seem to have a place in this system.
I just wish whichever winger we played the manager would give them a run of games, even if they have a couple of poor ones.
The constant changing of formation, playing style, alongside the lack of minutes just means whether it is CBT, Kirk, DJ etc they are never really given a chance to build consistency and are sadly not good enough players to just be on it, on tap.
I know it’s easy to be an armchair expert but 95% of us think this guy is a dud to varying degrees. How on earth did our soooer dooper black box gang with all their data and first hand experience come to the conclusion that he was worth our biggest fee in recent years?
To be fair Kirk had just come off the back of a season where he'd got 7 goals and 9 assists at our level. That would have put him 4th for goals and 1st for assists in our squad that season. The season before that he'd got 7 & 14 at L2 level and 10 & 11 before that. He'd been a consistent provider and scorer of goals, was only around 23 and had proven he could handle the step up a level, helping a fairly penniless Crewe side finish 11th in the league. He was also way out at the top in terms of chance creation for the league as a whole. You can blame the scouting for a lot but this is one of those occasions where the 'super dooper' scouting actually pulled up a decent player (that Bowyer had wanted the season before), he just wasn't the right kind of player for what Adkins wanted and circumstances have meant that it hasn't worked out. I'm no fan of Kirk's output but he's exactly the kind of player good scouting should be pulling up
Comments
That formation doesnt work for any of our wingers, Kirk may be able to adapt like Leuth says, with him in the No.10 role - But once again we're a mess, we've made rigid signings for a 4-4-2 | 4-3-3... and are already changing setup to something that three / four players are useless in.
The game has changed, you don't have up and down wingers that hog the touch line.!
Yes he does have some skill but I would dispute he is a winger. As stated he doesn't have pace but nor does he have the ability to go round anyone with trickery either. You would think he might be able to fill the whole behind 2 strikers to create but you need movement to find space. He always seems to static.
Why? Because I don't see how you get him on the pitch long enough to make it worth keeping him. That might change in the summer with a better put together squad, it might not, but giving him away or selling him for a massive loss now does seem a bit strange.
Yes I am aware football has changed but if you are playing 3 up as England do for instance the players that can play as out & out wingers (Saka & Sterling) still provide pace or trickery as attributes to get beyond the central striker. So to me Kirk doesn't have that so no he is not a winger deployed as a one of front 3 players.
My comments this morning are critical about Kirk but the reality is I have no axe per say to grind against him other than he hasn't delivered and I personally don't think he is right for us as the type of player he is.
To be fair we have less skillful players that are supposed to be creative players but you have to look at piecing the jigsaw together on a budget. Therefore I think we need players that are less restrictive than Kirk.
I accept there are different opinions on certain players but how long are you going to keep waiting for a solution to finding the position for Kirk. If it were my call, I would make a decision now if a club were willing to take him even if it were on loan.
Maybe Kirk is not the kind of player we want when we're fighting relegation or in a bad run of form, but he can create more than anyone else in this team (and at times in this league), the stats don't lie there. Unfortunately he's also the least 'Charlton-like' player we've got, in that he doesn't work particularly hard and hates a tackle. (I don't think I've ever seen CBT make a tackle either, but he gets away with it for being more 'exciting.')
Players with that lack of work ethic will stand out and rightly get criticism when we're in need of backs-to-walls, diehard attitudes to pull us out of trouble.
It's what winds me up about these L1 players. They don't push themselves. If Charlie suddenly found his aggressive streak, played every game as if it was his last, pressed like a maniac and tackled hard, he'd be a Championship player without a doubt. But he seems happy where he is, plodding along.
Probably not going to work out for him here, especially with the 352. Another symptom of our smorgasboard approach to recruitment. But even with this all being said, I still don't think he's a dud, not with the chances he creates.
I agree that he is in the last chance saloon now and if he doesn't up his game, then we should look to move him on. I would say that he is in the same boat as 6-7 other players. I think moving on the under performing players is at least a two transfer window task.
I completely get all the opinions that he isn't cut out to be a winger, he doesn't look interested, and he's certainly not one you'd want in the trenches but if a manager was prepared to accept he will offer nothing defensively and gave him a free role maybe as a number 10, then he'd probably be quite good.
I don't imagine Holden will be doing that though, so i can see him leaving.
Kirk will end up leaving, the majority of fans will say they’re pleased to see the back of him. And then he’ll go on to play hundreds of games elsewhere, get loads of goals and assists and be loved by fans at his new club in Surrey.
I think Charlie's career stats (large sample size) will be up there with the best in the league.
an amazing ability to avoid the ball at all costs
The constant changing of formation, playing style, alongside the lack of minutes just means whether it is CBT, Kirk, DJ etc they are never really given a chance to build consistency and are sadly not good enough players to just be on it, on tap.
Kerkar had the highest assist number at the club but was obvious to all other than the stat kids that he was a pretty average player.
Kirk can put in a decent ball but lacks enough to actually be in a top level squad.