The commitment and togetherness I thought Jackson would bring is sadly lacking. I really though we were at the start of a long and successful journey with him at the helm. I knew it wouldn't happen straight away, but the dross we are being served up week after week lately is surely a real concern for any Charlton fan.
The question that needs to be asked. Is the squad Jackson has at his disposal worse than 14 other squads. I doubt it is.
JJ has been part of the set up for a while but we are playing in such a different way now that I think it’s unfair to judge him on the results achieved under Adkins, for example.
We had 9 points from 13 when he took over. We have gained 40 points from 27 since.
No-one knows where we’d be in the table now if JJ had had this squad since the beginning of the season.
However, if we had had 40 points from the opening 27 games (Fleetwood (H) was our 27th), that would be good enough for 8th. Level on points with Sheff Wed.
With that in mind, “is the squad Jackson has at his disposal worse than 7 other squads?” is perhaps a fairer question.
That's nonsense because we didn't have this squad at the start of the season.
If Jackson had been the manager we might have got a a few more points at the start of the season but then we wouldn't have got a new manager "bounce".
No management scenario would have us finish above Bolton or below Fleetwood, including keeping Adkins, unless it changed the recruitment and injuries. Which is highly unlikely.
If Jackson had got the job when Bowyer left he would probably, unfairly, be sacked by now. As a football team we have gone massively backwards in the last year.
The question that needs to be asked. Is the squad Jackson has at his disposal worse than 14 other squads. I doubt it is.
JJ has been part of the set up for a while but we are playing in such a different way now that I think it’s unfair to judge him on the results achieved under Adkins, for example.
We had 9 points from 13 when he took over. We have gained 40 points from 27 since.
No-one knows where we’d be in the table now if JJ had had this squad since the beginning of the season.
However, if we had had 40 points from the opening 27 games (Fleetwood (H) was our 27th), that would be good enough for 8th. Level on points with Sheff Wed.
With that in mind, “is the squad Jackson has at his disposal worse than 7 other squads?” is perhaps a fairer question.
Compare the squad now with the squad at the beginning of the season and then throw this comment and hypothetical in the bin where it belongs.
Jackson is one of few Charlton managers who genuinely has care for the club and he knows it inside out.
That mindset is going to provide him with the required extra working effort throughout the summer.
Pushing him out and getting a replacement, will not help. It will continue the revolving door of repetitive nonsense.
He is a young enthusiastic apprentice of football management. Of course he is going to make mistakes, but you only learn when making the mistakes.
This is the ‘rose tinted” view. Next season will tell us and I hope you’re assessment is correct but at this point I see nothing to suggest JJ has the required skillset apart from obviously desperate to succeed because I agree he definitely has a very close affinity with the club.
Jackson is one of few Charlton managers who genuinely has care for the club and he knows it inside out.
That mindset is going to provide him with the required extra working effort throughout the summer.
Pushing him out and getting a replacement, will not help. It will continue the revolving door of repetitive nonsense.
He is a young enthusiastic apprentice of football management. Of course he is going to make mistakes, but you only learn when making the mistakes.
This is the ‘rose tinted” view. Next season will tell us and I hope you’re assessment is correct but at this point I see nothing to suggest JJ has the required skillset apart from obviously desperate to succeed because I agree he definitely has a very close affinity with the club.
It’s hard to tell as we don’t have much to go on. By the end of last season we thought Adkins had it and after Powell’s first half a season we thought he probably didn’t have it.
Adkins might have succeeded with better recruitment and I’m sure Powell and Bowyer would have failed with poor recruitment. Same with Robinson, he would have done better with a Taylor or Yann up front rather than Magennis.
The question that needs to be asked. Is the squad Jackson has at his disposal worse than 14 other squads. I doubt it is.
JJ has been part of the set up for a while but we are playing in such a different way now that I think it’s unfair to judge him on the results achieved under Adkins, for example.
We had 9 points from 13 when he took over. We have gained 40 points from 27 since.
No-one knows where we’d be in the table now if JJ had had this squad since the beginning of the season.
However, if we had had 40 points from the opening 27 games (Fleetwood (H) was our 27th), that would be good enough for 8th. Level on points with Sheff Wed.
With that in mind, “is the squad Jackson has at his disposal worse than 7 other squads?” is perhaps a fairer question.
That's nonsense because we didn't have this squad at the start of the season.
If Jackson had been the manager we might have got a a few more points at the start of the season but then we wouldn't have got a new manager "bounce".
No management scenario would have us finish above Bolton or below Fleetwood, including keeping Adkins, unless it changed the recruitment and injuries. Which is highly unlikely.
If Jackson had got the job when Bowyer left he would probably, unfairly, be sacked by now. As a football team we have gone massively backwards in the last year.
The question that needs to be asked. Is the squad Jackson has at his disposal worse than 14 other squads. I doubt it is.
JJ has been part of the set up for a while but we are playing in such a different way now that I think it’s unfair to judge him on the results achieved under Adkins, for example.
We had 9 points from 13 when he took over. We have gained 40 points from 27 since.
No-one knows where we’d be in the table now if JJ had had this squad since the beginning of the season.
However, if we had had 40 points from the opening 27 games (Fleetwood (H) was our 27th), that would be good enough for 8th. Level on points with Sheff Wed.
With that in mind, “is the squad Jackson has at his disposal worse than 7 other squads?” is perhaps a fairer question.
Compare the squad now with the squad at the beginning of the season and then throw this comment and hypothetical in the bin where it belongs.
Sorry fellas, my mistake. I forgot the January signings of Nile John and Juan Castillo both of whom have been major contributors to the upturn in results.
I won’t even let you have Aneke and Fraser. Both are good players yes but equally, they have contributed two goals and one assist between them.
Scratching my head and trying to work out who these amazing players are that Jackson has but Adkins didn’t.
The question that needs to be asked. Is the squad Jackson has at his disposal worse than 14 other squads. I doubt it is.
JJ has been part of the set up for a while but we are playing in such a different way now that I think it’s unfair to judge him on the results achieved under Adkins, for example.
We had 9 points from 13 when he took over. We have gained 40 points from 27 since.
No-one knows where we’d be in the table now if JJ had had this squad since the beginning of the season.
However, if we had had 40 points from the opening 27 games (Fleetwood (H) was our 27th), that would be good enough for 8th. Level on points with Sheff Wed.
With that in mind, “is the squad Jackson has at his disposal worse than 7 other squads?” is perhaps a fairer question.
That's nonsense because we didn't have this squad at the start of the season.
If Jackson had been the manager we might have got a a few more points at the start of the season but then we wouldn't have got a new manager "bounce".
No management scenario would have us finish above Bolton or below Fleetwood, including keeping Adkins, unless it changed the recruitment and injuries. Which is highly unlikely.
If Jackson had got the job when Bowyer left he would probably, unfairly, be sacked by now. As a football team we have gone massively backwards in the last year.
The question that needs to be asked. Is the squad Jackson has at his disposal worse than 14 other squads. I doubt it is.
JJ has been part of the set up for a while but we are playing in such a different way now that I think it’s unfair to judge him on the results achieved under Adkins, for example.
We had 9 points from 13 when he took over. We have gained 40 points from 27 since.
No-one knows where we’d be in the table now if JJ had had this squad since the beginning of the season.
However, if we had had 40 points from the opening 27 games (Fleetwood (H) was our 27th), that would be good enough for 8th. Level on points with Sheff Wed.
With that in mind, “is the squad Jackson has at his disposal worse than 7 other squads?” is perhaps a fairer question.
Compare the squad now with the squad at the beginning of the season and then throw this comment and hypothetical in the bin where it belongs.
Sorry fellas, my mistake. I forgot the January signings of Nile John and Juan Castillo both of whom have been major contributors to the upturn in results.
I won’t even let you have Aneke and Fraser. Both are good players yes but equally, they have contributed two goals and one assist between them.
Scratching my head and trying to work out who these amazing players are that Jackson has but Adkins didn’t.
Well did we start the season with Gilbey, Purrington, CBT, Leko, Lee, Lavelle? If you include Fraser that's half the players that started the last handful of games.
Scratching my head at the length you will go to to try and prove a statistical point that's factually wrong. Last week you ignored half the games we lost for "reasons" now your just making stuff up.
Gilbey played 6 of 13 due to an injury. Purrington played 2. I forget whether he had an injury or Adkins just didn’t pick him.
These players all had far more game time under Nigel Adkins than you are making out. I am sticking to my guns here.
9 points from 13 vs 40 points from 27. Effectively the same squads. Could NA have got 31 points from 14 games with these players to equal Jacko’s 40 point total? 🤷♂️
Gilbey played 6 of 13 due to an injury. Purrington played 2. I forget whether he had an injury or Adkins just didn’t pick him.
These players all had far more game time under Nigel Adkins than you are making out. I am sticking to my guns here.
9 points from 13 vs 40 points from 27. Effectively the same squads. 🤷♂️
Where they here at the start of the season?
Would any manager Jackson, Klopp, Pepe, Clough or Shankly got more than 2 or 3 points out of our first 4 games with the players we had avalible?
The facts, whether you choose to ignore them or not, are the facts. Those players were not here, match fit, when the season started. That is a fact.
For statistics to work they have to be factual, you lecture other people that the stats are right and they just don't understand them, then revise history to suit your argument. You did it with the Washington/Stockley ones last week as well.
Agree to disagree. Feel free to nit pick my numbers to your heart’s content. I believe they are solid and you don’t.
The entire point of my original response to SHG was that it is entirely unfair to judge Jackson on our current league position of 15th, given that we were 23rd when he took over. Can we agree on that?
Agree to disagree. Feel free to nit pick my numbers to your heart’s content. I believe they are solid and you don’t.
The entire point of my original response to SHG was that it is entirely unfair to judge Jackson on our current league position of 15th, given that we were 23rd when he took over. Can we agree on that?
Yes as I have said multiple times. We would be in the fringe of the play offs if Jackson was manager from the start is a different argument.
I thinks that's complete bollocks to be honest and your methodology in trying to prove it has more holes than a Swiss cheese.
My position, all most exclusively because of last summers recruitment, is we would be somewhere between Bolton and Fleetwood who ever the manager was. Even if it was Adkins.
Sacking, or not, Jackson won't solve anything. Next seasons squad, in all areas, needs to be significantly better. Including upgrades on some of our "better" players.
The question that needs to be asked. Is the squad Jackson has at his disposal worse than 14 other squads. I doubt it is.
JJ has been part of the set up for a while but we are playing in such a different way now that I think it’s unfair to judge him on the results achieved under Adkins, for example.
We had 9 points from 13 when he took over. We have gained 40 points from 27 since.
No-one knows where we’d be in the table now if JJ had had this squad since the beginning of the season.
However, if we had had 40 points from the opening 27 games (Fleetwood (H) was our 27th), that would be good enough for 8th. Level on points with Sheff Wed.
With that in mind, “is the squad Jackson has at his disposal worse than 7 other squads?” is perhaps a fairer question.
That's nonsense because we didn't have this squad at the start of the season.
If Jackson had been the manager we might have got a a few more points at the start of the season but then we wouldn't have got a new manager "bounce".
No management scenario would have us finish above Bolton or below Fleetwood, including keeping Adkins, unless it changed the recruitment and injuries. Which is highly unlikely.
If Jackson had got the job when Bowyer left he would probably, unfairly, be sacked by now. As a football team we have gone massively backwards in the last year.
The question that needs to be asked. Is the squad Jackson has at his disposal worse than 14 other squads. I doubt it is.
JJ has been part of the set up for a while but we are playing in such a different way now that I think it’s unfair to judge him on the results achieved under Adkins, for example.
We had 9 points from 13 when he took over. We have gained 40 points from 27 since.
No-one knows where we’d be in the table now if JJ had had this squad since the beginning of the season.
However, if we had had 40 points from the opening 27 games (Fleetwood (H) was our 27th), that would be good enough for 8th. Level on points with Sheff Wed.
With that in mind, “is the squad Jackson has at his disposal worse than 7 other squads?” is perhaps a fairer question.
Compare the squad now with the squad at the beginning of the season and then throw this comment and hypothetical in the bin where it belongs.
Sorry fellas, my mistake. I forgot the January signings of Nile John and Juan Castillo both of whom have been major contributors to the upturn in results.
I won’t even let you have Aneke and Fraser. Both are good players yes but equally, they have contributed two goals and one assist between them.
Scratching my head and trying to work out who these amazing players are that Jackson has but Adkins didn’t.
You don't think Jackson has a better squad now than the one Adkins started the opening month with?
Aneke and Fraser not doing anything with us is more a mark on Jackson himself than the players they were coming in. He signed those players to be starting players, injured one and got nothing from the other.
Agree to disagree. Feel free to nit pick my numbers to your heart’s content. I believe they are solid and you don’t.
The entire point of my original response to SHG was that it is entirely unfair to judge Jackson on our current league position of 15th, given that we were 23rd when he took over. Can we agree on that?
I.e. I'm backtracking because I'm wrong.
1 MacGillivray
16 Matthews
24 Inniss
5 Famewo
2 Gunter
28 Clare
10 Morgan
4 Dobson
7 Jaiyesimi
9 Stockley
14 Washington
Substitutes
6 Pearce
25 Davison
26 Watson
31 Harness
32 Ghandour
36 Clayden
50 Elerewe
Let's compare with Jackson's last game:
1 MacGillivray
28 Clare
15 Lavelle
3 Purrington
16 Matthews
11 Gilbey
4 Dobson
21 Fraser
23 Blackett-Taylor
14 Washington
9 Stockley
Substitutes
5 Famewo
6 Pearce
8 Forster-Caskey
17 Lee
18 Leko
31 Harness
48 Burstow
Notice something unusual about the substitutes? That one is filled with actual adult football players and the other isn't.
No wonder we used to collapse in the second half of games under Adkins once fitness took their toll and subs were made.
Agree to disagree. Feel free to nit pick my numbers to your heart’s content. I believe they are solid and you don’t.
The entire point of my original response to SHG was that it is entirely unfair to judge Jackson on our current league position of 15th, given that we were 23rd when he took over. Can we agree on that?
Yes as I have said multiple times. We would be in the fringe of the play offs if Jackson was manager from the start is a different argument.
I thinks that's complete bollocks to be honest and your methodology in trying to prove it has more holes than a Swiss cheese.
My position, all most exclusively because of last summers recruitment, is we would be somewhere between Bolton and Fleetwood who ever the manager was. Even if it was Adkins.
Sacking, or not, Jackson won't solve anything. Next seasons squad, in all areas, needs to be significantly better. Including upgrades on some of our "better" players.
Alright. It seems we are pretty much in agreement. I do think our absolute upper limit with this squad is 8th or 9th and while Jacko isn’t a perfect 10/10, he has this squad playing to a level that would see us finish 10th-12th over 46 games… fair?
I’ll work on my tone in responses because I think this got unnecessarily bristly. 😅
One point of order, I’m not back tracking. I am dug in and will never change.
The point made re: squad depth for the opening few games is fair and I can accept it for 4, 5 maybe 6 games. But by game 10, 11, 12 we were losing 1-4 at home to Bolton and 2-3 at home to Accrington.
All of the signings had bedded in at that point. It seems to be accepted by some that the form would’ve turned if we had stuck with Adkins and Jackson simply got lucky.
I don’t believe it would have turned and I don’t believe he is lucky.
One point of order, I’m not back tracking. I am dug in and will never change.
The point made re: squad depth for the opening few games is fair and I can accept it for 4, 5 maybe 6 games. But by game 10, 11, 12 we were losing 1-4 at home to Bolton and 2-3 at home to Accrington.
All of the signings had bedded in at that point. It seems to be accepted by some that the form would’ve turned if we had stuck with Adkins and Jackson simply got lucky.
I don’t believe it would have turned and I don’t believe he is lucky.
I think morale was gone at that point and likewise faith in the manager, a change was needed.
If Jackson would have been manager from the start of the season, the same would be true. Morale would have been low, faith would have been lost and he'd be out the door by November.
The recruitment in the summer screwed up any chance we had for the start of the season. The change in manager has bumped us up to midtable, but the squad again shows that's our limit. Even with substantial money spent in January to improve Jackson's squad.
One point of order, I’m not back tracking. I am dug in and will never change.
The point made re: squad depth for the opening few games is fair and I can accept it for 4, 5 maybe 6 games. But by game 10, 11, 12 we were losing 1-4 at home to Bolton and 2-3 at home to Accrington.
All of the signings had bedded in at that point. It seems to be accepted by some that the form would’ve turned if we had stuck with Adkins and Jackson simply got lucky.
I don’t believe it would have turned and I don’t believe he is lucky.
No the difference is we may well have got half a dozen, or more, points from those games especially the 3 home games Cheltenham, Accrington and Bolton but if we had would we have got the new manager bounce?
Highly unlikely IMO.
Neither outcomes give a true reflection of the ability of either manager to be honest. Neither had the chance to succeed.
You look at the best teams, no matter what formation, you have banks of players when you lose the ball or when in transition into attack. This involves backs 15-20 metres to midfield, 15-20 metres to attack. Three banks with limited space between them. This Charlton team does not seem capable of playing a structured game plan, where there appears to be massive gaps between the banks of players. Is this a coaching issue, or are the players not up to playing to instructions? I was a big supporter of Jackson getting the job, but I am now questioning his ability to get the the team to play to instructions. Games are won and lost by the strength of the midfield to control a game, and at the moment we are poor in this area. Gilby has disappointed, Frazer appears off the pace (possibly Covid related) but you would think that whatever team is put out, the structure can be coached. Thats why I am now starting to question Jackson's managerial skills. I am not seeing a formation, whatever the formation, that has a solid shape about it. Players come and go, but the coaching team from the managers instructions should at least be able to deliver a team that has a solid shape about it.
You look at the best teams, no matter what formation, you have banks of players when you lose the ball or when in transition into attack. This involves backs 15-20 metres to midfield, 15-20 metres to attack. Three banks with limited space between them. This Charlton team does not seem capable of playing a structured game plan, where there appears to be massive gaps between the banks of players. Is this a coaching issue, or are the players not up to playing to instructions? I was a big supporter of Jackson getting the job, but I am now questioning his ability to get the the team to play to instructions. Games are won and lost by the strength of the midfield to control a game, and at the moment we are poor in this area. Gilby has disappointed, Frazer appears off the pace (possibly Covid related) but you would think that whatever team is put out, the structure can be coached. Thats why I am now starting to question Jackson's managerial skills. I am not seeing a formation, whatever the formation, that has a solid shape about it. Players come and go, but the coaching team from the managers instructions should at least be able to deliver a team that has a solid shape about it.
Spot on. You would think as a midfielder Jackson would have learnt this throughout his career or when doing his coaching qualifications.
I still think JJ deserves the summer and see how we start next season. The squad is a mess, plus who is out there realistically to come in?
Disagree. There's no signs of this system he's supposed to be building, despite the fact he's been so stubborn with it - even to our detriment. I have no faith that he'd make the use of new players, especially when he gives JFC the wrong role on his first start back.
Maybe but just as much of a gamble as Jackson No (too short term) No (wouldn’t be the same) No (doubt he’d come here and we’d have to give him more than a season to build a possession team who win games, our fans don’t have the patience for that) No (at Gillingham for a reason)
Comments
I really though we were at the start of a long and successful journey with him at the helm.
I knew it wouldn't happen straight away, but the dross we are being served up week after week lately is surely a real concern for any Charlton fan.
If Jackson had been the manager we might have got a a few more points at the start of the season but then we wouldn't have got a new manager "bounce".
No management scenario would have us finish above Bolton or below Fleetwood, including keeping Adkins, unless it changed the recruitment and injuries. Which is highly unlikely.
If Jackson had got the job when Bowyer left he would probably, unfairly, be sacked by now. As a football team we have gone massively backwards in the last year.
Jackson is one of few Charlton managers who genuinely has care for the club and he knows it inside out.
That mindset is going to provide him with the required extra working effort throughout the summer.
Pushing him out and getting a replacement, will not help. It will continue the revolving door of repetitive nonsense.
He is a young enthusiastic apprentice of football management. Of course he is going to make mistakes, but you only learn when making the mistakes.
Adkins might have succeeded with better recruitment and I’m sure Powell and Bowyer would have failed with poor recruitment. Same with Robinson, he would have done better with a Taylor or Yann up front rather than Magennis.
I won’t even let you have Aneke and Fraser. Both are good players yes but equally, they have contributed two goals and one assist between them.
Scratching my head and trying to work out who these amazing players are that Jackson has but Adkins didn’t.
Scratching my head at the length you will go to to try and prove a statistical point that's factually wrong. Last week you ignored half the games we lost for "reasons" now your just making stuff up.
Lee also played 8 of 13.
Leko also played 8 of 13.
CBT played 8 of 13 as well.
Gilbey played 6 of 13 due to an injury. Purrington played 2. I forget whether he had an injury or Adkins just didn’t pick him.
These players all had far more game time under Nigel Adkins than you are making out. I am sticking to my guns here.
9 points from 13 vs 40 points from 27. Effectively the same squads. Could NA have got 31 points from 14 games with these players to equal Jacko’s 40 point total? 🤷♂️
Would any manager Jackson, Klopp, Pepe, Clough or Shankly got more than 2 or 3 points out of our first 4 games with the players we had avalible?
The facts, whether you choose to ignore them or not, are the facts. Those players were not here, match fit, when the season started. That is a fact.
For statistics to work they have to be factual, you lecture other people that the stats are right and they just don't understand them, then revise history to suit your argument. You did it with the Washington/Stockley ones last week as well.
The entire point of my original response to SHG was that it is entirely unfair to judge Jackson on our current league position of 15th, given that we were 23rd when he took over. Can we agree on that?
I thinks that's complete bollocks to be honest and your methodology in trying to prove it has more holes than a Swiss cheese.
My position, all most exclusively because of last summers recruitment, is we would be somewhere between Bolton and Fleetwood who ever the manager was. Even if it was Adkins.
Sacking, or not, Jackson won't solve anything. Next seasons squad, in all areas, needs to be significantly better. Including upgrades on some of our "better" players.
Aneke and Fraser not doing anything with us is more a mark on Jackson himself than the players they were coming in. He signed those players to be starting players, injured one and got nothing from the other.
Substitutes
Let's compare with Jackson's last game:
Substitutes
- 5 Famewo
- 6 Pearce
- 8 Forster-Caskey
- 17 Lee
- 18 Leko
- 31 Harness
- 48 Burstow
Notice something unusual about the substitutes? That one is filled with actual adult football players and the other isn't.No wonder we used to collapse in the second half of games under Adkins once fitness took their toll and subs were made.
I’ll work on my tone in responses because I think this got unnecessarily bristly. 😅
The point made re: squad depth for the opening few games is fair and I can accept it for 4, 5 maybe 6 games. But by game 10, 11, 12 we were losing 1-4 at home to Bolton and 2-3 at home to Accrington.
All of the signings had bedded in at that point. It seems to be accepted by some that the form would’ve turned if we had stuck with Adkins and Jackson simply got lucky.
If Jackson would have been manager from the start of the season, the same would be true. Morale would have been low, faith would have been lost and he'd be out the door by November.
The recruitment in the summer screwed up any chance we had for the start of the season. The change in manager has bumped us up to midtable, but the squad again shows that's our limit. Even with substantial money spent in January to improve Jackson's squad.
Highly unlikely IMO.
Neither outcomes give a true reflection of the ability of either manager to be honest. Neither had the chance to succeed.
I was a big supporter of Jackson getting the job, but I am now questioning his ability to get the the team to play to instructions. Games are won and lost by the strength of the midfield to control a game, and at the moment we are poor in this area. Gilby has disappointed, Frazer appears off the pace (possibly Covid related) but you would think that whatever team is put out, the structure can be coached.
Thats why I am now starting to question Jackson's managerial skills. I am not seeing a formation, whatever the formation, that has a solid shape about it. Players come and go, but the coaching team from the managers instructions should at least be able to deliver a team that has a solid shape about it.
would currently put us on 60 points which is joint 10th
and a season ending total of 67
Ideally a coach who makes players better.
No (too short term)
No (wouldn’t be the same)
No (doubt he’d come here and we’d have to give him more than a season to build a possession team who win games, our fans don’t have the patience for that)
No (at Gillingham for a reason)
Not a great list of alternatives is it?