Is 4 top 6 league one players and a bunch of squad fillers enough to get us top 2 next season?
As much I would like to see us challenge for top two next season, I think it is highly unrealistic. Comfortably (and not scrabbling in the last two weeks of the season) in the playoffs is still a push, but probably the more best-case target. This is with a heavy requirement on recruiting those kind of players and solving some of the issues this squad has (away form, discipline, injuries etc.)
I may be looking optimistically at this, but bringing certain players in will make others look better. Actual wing-backs who have pace and can cross will make Stockley better, for example. The wage bill is going to be significantly reduced if, as I suspect, Watson, Gunter, Pearce and probably either/both of Matthews and Washington all go. This season's squad was very good on paper, but didn't play anywhere near their potential for this league and most of whom have been real dross.
Regardless (and to bring back to the case for JJ), I just don't think that culpability for this season lies with JJ. He's the reason, imho, we're not in the relegation scrap. Alternatives are almost certainly out there, but I just think he has done enough to be backed for a full season and with spend behind that. Maybe I overvalue it, but his genuine desire for success at this club counts for a lot for me. He's young and comparatively inexperienced, but so are many successful managers in L1/L2.
This season has been terribad, but I do remain positive that a new term under JJ with a refreshed squad could compete.
Worth remembering Powell worked as a coach under Pearson, Sousa and Goran Eriksson.
Jackson has worked as a coach under Robinson, Bowyer and Adkins.
I think it's almost unfair to look at the two the same way.
For me, if it takes Jackson a Summer to settle a side, I guess whilst still being on the fence with him, we have to consider it worth a go surely? He's not really had the opportunity that Powell or others had.
In fact we dropped from 3rd (was it?) to 13th in league 1. If Jackson takes us from 22nd to potentially 12th, then surely he earns a summer?
But then in summer someone able to get the best out of mediocre players may be available and would probably be worth a shout.
Worth remembering Powell worked as a coach under Pearson, Sousa and Goran Eriksson.
Jackson has worked as a coach under Robinson, Bowyer and Adkins.
I think it's almost unfair to look at the two the same way.
For me, if it takes Jackson a Summer to settle a side, I guess whilst still being on the fence with him, we have to consider it worth a go surely? He's not really had the opportunity that Powell or others had.
In fact we dropped from 3rd (was it?) to 13th in league 1. If Jackson takes us from 22nd to potentially 12th, then surely he earns a summer?
But then in summer someone able to get the best out of mediocre players may be available and would probably be worth a shout.
It's not just unfair it's utterly ridiculous. But, hey, whatever helps an arguement I guess.
Worth remembering Powell worked as a coach under Pearson, Sousa and Goran Eriksson.
Jackson has worked as a coach under Robinson, Bowyer and Adkins.
I think it's almost unfair to look at the two the same way.
For me, if it takes Jackson a Summer to settle a side, I guess whilst still being on the fence with him, we have to consider it worth a go surely? He's not really had the opportunity that Powell or others had.
In fact we dropped from 3rd (was it?) to 13th in league 1. If Jackson takes us from 22nd to potentially 12th, then surely he earns a summer?
But then in summer someone able to get the best out of mediocre players may be available and would probably be worth a shout.
The point is he is worth a go because the alternative is verging on the farcical.
Because we fucked it up we are now in a worse situation than we were this time last year.
We won't know if we fuck it up again, or not, until we are either flying under Jackson or still failing under manager number 4 next Christmas.
A lot of criticism of JJ is around the formation. But do people not remember how bad we were defensively at the start of the season playing 4 at the back. We’d just go back to conceding 2 or 3 goals every game
Also looking at the top of league 1 today, 8 of the top 9 all played 3 at the back (of course Karl Robinson didn’t). It’s clearly the most effective system at this level and there is some good theory behind what JJ wants to build
A lot of criticism of JJ is around the formation. But do people not remember how bad we were defensively at the start of the season playing 4 at the back. We’d just go back to conceding 2 or 3 goals every game
Also looking at the top of league 1 today, 8 of the top 9 all played 3 at the back (of course Karl Robinson didn’t). It’s clearly the most effective system at this level and there is some good theory behind what JJ wants to build
2 points to make:
1) The criticism over the formation is based around the fact we don't seem to have been learning how to play it. No win %'s or stats on 3-5-2 effectiveness can hide what our eyes see, and that's a team that bypasses the midfield by hoofing it up to Stockley.
2) 4 at the back was working fine when we got 6 clean sheets in a row last season with Innis, Famewo, and Matthews in it. Why have these defenders regressed under Jackson?
A lot of criticism of JJ is around the formation. But do people not remember how bad we were defensively at the start of the season playing 4 at the back. We’d just go back to conceding 2 or 3 goals every game
Also looking at the top of league 1 today, 8 of the top 9 all played 3 at the back (of course Karl Robinson didn’t). It’s clearly the most effective system at this level and there is some good theory behind what JJ wants to build
2 points to make:
1) The criticism over the formation is based around the fact we don't seem to have been learning how to play it. No win %'s or stats on 3-5-2 effectiveness can hide what our eyes see, and that's a team that bypasses the midfield by hoofing it up to Stockley.
2) 4 at the back was working fine when we got 6 clean sheets in a row last season with Innis, Famewo, and Matthews in it. Why have these defenders regressed under Jackson?
There’s no problem with being a bit direct. Rotherham and Wycombe are both pretty good and more direct than we are. Stockley is a great player at this level so playing to his strengths is a decent idea. Results have been pretty good under JJ, apart from when we had 0 decent strikers available.
When we have actually recruited players that suit the formation I think the quality of our play will improve. Hard to play football when you have players like Inniss, Pearce, Famewo, Purrington at the back who aren’t great on the ball.
Would say Famewo/Inniss have been just as bad under Adkins as they were under JJ this season and Matthews far better under JJ than Adkins. Defence much improved under JJ than it was adkins so not sure the argument that JJ has made our defenders worse really works
1) The criticism over the formation is based around the fact we don't seem to have been learning how to play it. No win %'s or stats on 3-5-2 effectiveness can hide what our eyes see, and that's a team that bypasses the midfield by hoofing it up to Stockley.
2) 4 at the back was working fine when we got 6 clean sheets in a row last season with Innis, Famewo, and Matthews in it. Why have these defenders regressed under Jackson?
Also wouldn’t say that we were that much of a long ball team under JJ and the stats seem to back that up. Especially as the Adkins period would have affected these stats where we were a lot more direct.
Next season we should have a couple of ball playing defenders in the back 3, Fraser up to full speed and hopefully a better passer than Gilbey starting in midfield. JJ has done decent with square pegs in round holes so deserves a chance to sign some players that actually fit the system
1) The criticism over the formation is based around the fact we don't seem to have been learning how to play it. No win %'s or stats on 3-5-2 effectiveness can hide what our eyes see, and that's a team that bypasses the midfield by hoofing it up to Stockley.
2) 4 at the back was working fine when we got 6 clean sheets in a row last season with Innis, Famewo, and Matthews in it. Why have these defenders regressed under Jackson?
Also wouldn’t say that we were that much of a long ball team under JJ and the stats seem to back that up. Especially as the Adkins period would have affected these stats where we were a lot more direct.
Next season we should have a couple of ball playing defenders in the back 3, Fraser up to full speed and hopefully a better passer than Gilbey starting in midfield. JJ has done decent with square pegs in round holes so deserves a chance to sign some players that actually fit the system
15th in League One for passes per sequence? Sorry but that's dire.
JJ made the round holes for our square pegs, thus making more than half of our squad unfit for purpose.
I think its unquestionable that Famewo, Innis and Matthews have been far worse this season than last. A couple of recent performances from Matthews doesn't change that. And this season we had Dobson protecting them also.
Players that proved they were up to the standard previously aren't playing to their potential this season. If that's not a management issue then I don't know what is.
Balham, you have said that a couple of recent performances from Matthews doesn’t change the fact he’s regressed. How many performances would it take?
During the same exchange, you have used a run of six games from October 2020 to argue your own side of the same argument.
The point I would like to focus on is that Famewo has never looked very good in a four or a five if he’s not paired with Inniss. And Inniss only played 13 times last season, 14 times this.
That’s unfortunately not a partnership to build your defence around.
52 goals conceded from 42 this campaign versus 56 from 46 last campaign shows that over the course of the season, we are probably right about where we started.
Makes sense since the only back four/five additions that have played any significant part are MacG and Lavelle.
15th in League One for passes per sequence? Sorry but that's dire.
JJ made the round holes for our square pegs, thus making more than half of our squad unfit for purpose.
I think its unquestionable that Famewo, Innis and Matthews have been far worse this season than last. A couple of recent performances from Matthews doesn't change that. And this season we had Dobson protecting them also.
Players that proved they were up to the standard previously aren't playing to their potential this season. If that's not a management issue then I don't know what is.
It's actually 12th but I'm not saying we are a passing/possession based team, we can be quite direct. Just that we definitely aren't just a long ball team like you are saying.
JJ has picked a formation that doesn't fit the squad, but as I was saying the theory behind that is that the top teams in the league are all playing 3 at the back so it is reasonable to suggest that we have a better chance of being up there next season if we build around that.
League 1 table since he took over we are 11th. Tbh is our squad much better than 11th? And it was pretty impossible to pick up any points in that 6 game run where we had no strikers even Klopp/Pep would have struggled to get us any points. Taking that into account JJ has got us performing as a top 6 challenging team with a pretty average group of players that don't fit his formation but you don't think he deserves a go next season with (hopefully) a better group of players that actually fit his system?
It is the manager's job to decide on the formation and make it work. There are so many formations and subtleties within them. The test is of course going to be how Jackson makes it work next season and it doesn't really matter if it is 4-4-2 or 3-5-2 or any other. That isn't for us to decide.
Balham, you have said that a couple of recent performances from Matthews doesn’t change the fact he’s regressed. How many performances would it take?
During the same exchange, you have used a run of six games from October 2020 to argue your own side of the same argument.
The point I would like to focus on is that Famewo has never looked very good in a four or a five if he’s not paired with Inniss. And Inniss only played 13 times last season, 14 times this.
That’s unfortunately not a partnership to build your defence around.
52 goals conceded from 42 this campaign versus 56 from 46 last campaign shows that over the course of the season, we are probably right about where we started.
Makes sense since the only back four/five additions that have played any significant part are MacG and Lavelle.
Gunter was at right back for that run of 6 games anyway. Matthews has been rubbish the last 2 years. In fairness, I think that has more to do with Matthews than who the manager is as he seems to suddenly start playing well again when his contract is coming to an end.
He was amazing in the championship but been really poor in league 1, I think he has been coasting the last couple of years until the last 10 games where he puts a shift in to earn a new contract. He's playing well at the moment but I hope we don't fall for it again
Not been too impressed with JJ of late because he’s the one that picks the teams that haven’t been performing but I’ll get behind him for a while longer. The remaining 4 games should all produce draws or wins for charlton and that will mean the team will end the season undefeated in the last 6 and only 1 defeat in the last 10. Do that when you look like you are a shit team and you are probably not doing too much wrong and in a good place to step up from with some well thought out squad changes.
1) The criticism over the formation is based around the fact we don't seem to have been learning how to play it. No win %'s or stats on 3-5-2 effectiveness can hide what our eyes see, and that's a team that bypasses the midfield by hoofing it up to Stockley.
2) 4 at the back was working fine when we got 6 clean sheets in a row last season with Innis, Famewo, and Matthews in it. Why have these defenders regressed under Jackson?
Goals conceded since 2020/21:
Bowyer 46 from 35 games (1.31 per game)
Adkins 31 from 23 (1.34 per game)
Jackson 29 from 29 (1 per game)
Not sure how you can conclude that the defenders have regressed under Jackson?
Some massive decisions need to be made over the next couple of months. Not many of them are easy imo.
What players to offer new contracts ? Quite difficult as a number of them are now putting in good performances where a short while ago it was an easy decision, aka Matthew's, pearce etc.
JJ. Is he the man to take us forward ? Has he shown enough this season to suggest to TS that if he spends again in the window JJ can get us out of this league ?
In the cold light of day if I were the person thinking "right this year will be another £x million going out" I would struggle to come to a conclusion as performances and results have been so confusing this season
Some massive decisions need to be made over the next couple of months. Not many of them are easy imo.
What players to offer new contracts ? Quite difficult as a number of them are now putting in good performances where a short while ago it was an easy decision, aka Matthew's, pearce etc.
JJ. Is he the man to take us forward ? Has he shown enough this season to suggest to TS that if he spends again in the window JJ can get us out of this league ?
In the cold light of day if I were the person thinking "right this year will be another £x million going out" I would struggle to come to a conclusion as performances and results have been so confusing this season
These decisions you are talking about have already probably been made. If they are to be made over the next couple of months then we are already in trouble.
1) The criticism over the formation is based around the fact we don't seem to have been learning how to play it. No win %'s or stats on 3-5-2 effectiveness can hide what our eyes see, and that's a team that bypasses the midfield by hoofing it up to Stockley.
2) 4 at the back was working fine when we got 6 clean sheets in a row last season with Innis, Famewo, and Matthews in it. Why have these defenders regressed under Jackson?
Goals conceded since 2020/21:
Bowyer 46 from 35 games (1.31 per game)
Adkins 31 from 23 (1.34 per game)
Jackson 35 from 32 (1.09 per game)
Not sure how you can conclude that the defenders have regressed under Jackson?
Because all I'm hearing is that we simply must play 5 at the back otherwise we'll be shipping a ton of goals?
Because all I'm hearing is that we simply must play 5 at the back otherwise we'll be shipping a ton of goals?
Hence we hardly score any.
We've only struggled to score goals when we've had injuries to our strikers. Which would suggest that it isn't Jackson or the system that is to blame but rather our lack of quality depth up front. Judging Jacko on a season where a decent amount of it he has had to use the likes of Leko, Burstow and Davison up front regularly is a bit harsh. Whenever he has had Stockley, Washington, Aneke available we've scored enough goals.
Jackson has done very well when he has had a good team available to him. Our poor recruitment meant that although we had a big squad the quality of depth was really poor so often he didn't have a good team available to him. But it does suggest that if we get our recruitment right next season and he has a good team available to him more often then we will be up there.
I don't have faith in the recruitment so can't see any chance of top 2, I predict we will be around the 5th-10th mark somewhere. I defo don't think Jacko is the issue at all, he's done a good job so far so deserves a chance next season
Jacko’s Points per game 44/30 would currently put us on 63 points which would put us 12th and a season ending total of 67.5
About right for a team that has Gilbey and Morgan in midfield with Pearce and Matthews in defence…
They managed to finish 7th last season though and with Watson in midfield most of the time.
That team also had 15 goals from Chuks and 12 assists from Shinnie/Millar between the two of them. Not forgetting the way Forster-Caskey dragged the team through matches at times too.
Those four were never really replaced properly and that’s been the major difference between the team that finished 7th and this team that has been playing to the form of 12th under Jackson.
I won’t hesitate to say that I was pleased to move on from Amos but we’ve plainly missed him this season too.
Comments
I may be looking optimistically at this, but bringing certain players in will make others look better. Actual wing-backs who have pace and can cross will make Stockley better, for example. The wage bill is going to be significantly reduced if, as I suspect, Watson, Gunter, Pearce and probably either/both of Matthews and Washington all go. This season's squad was very good on paper, but didn't play anywhere near their potential for this league and most of whom have been real dross.
Regardless (and to bring back to the case for JJ), I just don't think that culpability for this season lies with JJ. He's the reason, imho, we're not in the relegation scrap. Alternatives are almost certainly out there, but I just think he has done enough to be backed for a full season and with spend behind that. Maybe I overvalue it, but his genuine desire for success at this club counts for a lot for me. He's young and comparatively inexperienced, but so are many successful managers in L1/L2.
This season has been terribad, but I do remain positive that a new term under JJ with a refreshed squad could compete.
would currently put us on 63.7 points which would put us 10th
and a season ending total of 70
Jackson has worked as a coach under Robinson, Bowyer and Adkins.
I think it's almost unfair to look at the two the same way.
For me, if it takes Jackson a Summer to settle a side, I guess whilst still being on the fence with him, we have to consider it worth a go surely? He's not really had the opportunity that Powell or others had.
In fact we dropped from 3rd (was it?) to 13th in league 1. If Jackson takes us from 22nd to potentially 12th, then surely he earns a summer?
But then in summer someone able to get the best out of mediocre players may be available and would probably be worth a shout.
It's not just unfair it's utterly ridiculous. But, hey, whatever helps an arguement I guess.
Win Rate percentage
47% Jackson
37% Powell
All league one games
Because we fucked it up we are now in a worse situation than we were this time last year.
We won't know if we fuck it up again, or not, until we are either flying under Jackson or still failing under manager number 4 next Christmas.
1) The criticism over the formation is based around the fact we don't seem to have been learning how to play it. No win %'s or stats on 3-5-2 effectiveness can hide what our eyes see, and that's a team that bypasses the midfield by hoofing it up to Stockley.
2) 4 at the back was working fine when we got 6 clean sheets in a row last season with Innis, Famewo, and Matthews in it. Why have these defenders regressed under Jackson?
JJ made the round holes for our square pegs, thus making more than half of our squad unfit for purpose.
I think its unquestionable that Famewo, Innis and Matthews have been far worse this season than last. A couple of recent performances from Matthews doesn't change that. And this season we had Dobson protecting them also.
Players that proved they were up to the standard previously aren't playing to their potential this season. If that's not a management issue then I don't know what is.
During the same exchange, you have used a run of six games from October 2020 to argue your own side of the same argument.
That’s unfortunately not a partnership to build your defence around.
52 goals conceded from 42 this campaign versus 56 from 46 last campaign shows that over the course of the season, we are probably right about where we started.
Makes sense since the only back four/five additions that have played any significant part are MacG and Lavelle.
JJ has picked a formation that doesn't fit the squad, but as I was saying the theory behind that is that the top teams in the league are all playing 3 at the back so it is reasonable to suggest that we have a better chance of being up there next season if we build around that.
League 1 table since he took over we are 11th. Tbh is our squad much better than 11th? And it was pretty impossible to pick up any points in that 6 game run where we had no strikers even Klopp/Pep would have struggled to get us any points. Taking that into account JJ has got us performing as a top 6 challenging team with a pretty average group of players that don't fit his formation but you don't think he deserves a go next season with (hopefully) a better group of players that actually fit his system?
He was amazing in the championship but been really poor in league 1, I think he has been coasting the last couple of years until the last 10 games where he puts a shift in to earn a new contract. He's playing well at the moment but I hope we don't fall for it again
Bowyer 46 from 35 games (1.31 per game)
Adkins 31 from 23 (1.34 per game)
Jackson 29 from 29 (1 per game)
Not sure how you can conclude that the defenders have regressed under Jackson?
What players to offer new contracts ? Quite difficult as a number of them are now putting in good performances where a short while ago it was an easy decision, aka Matthew's, pearce etc.
JJ. Is he the man to take us forward ? Has he shown enough this season to suggest to TS that if he spends again in the window JJ can get us out of this league ?
In the cold light of day if I were the person thinking "right this year will be another £x million going out" I would struggle to come to a conclusion as performances and results have been so confusing this season
Hence we hardly score any.
Jackson has done very well when he has had a good team available to him. Our poor recruitment meant that although we had a big squad the quality of depth was really poor so often he didn't have a good team available to him. But it does suggest that if we get our recruitment right next season and he has a good team available to him more often then we will be up there.
I don't have faith in the recruitment so can't see any chance of top 2, I predict we will be around the 5th-10th mark somewhere. I defo don't think Jacko is the issue at all, he's done a good job so far so deserves a chance next season
would currently put us on 63 points which would put us 12th
and a season ending total of 67.5
Some would be happier if Jackson had used a few other formations just to show he’s flexible.
Some would still be demanding he’s replaced as they’re expecting us to be in the top 6 regardless of what the squad is capable of.
It won’t matter who the manager is until we put together a squad genuinely capable of competing for promotion.
They managed to finish 7th last season though and with Watson in midfield most of the time.
Those four were never really replaced properly and that’s been the major difference between the team that finished 7th and this team that has been playing to the form of 12th under Jackson.
I won’t hesitate to say that I was pleased to move on from Amos but we’ve plainly missed him this season too.