Both clubs are chite miserable entities, but there is a certain amount of authenticity about Millwall whereas Crystal Palace are a plastic concocted confection of crap.
Exactly. Millwall are a South London club. Palace are not.
Millwall are from the Isle of Dogs, they're South-East London wannabes. The Crystal Palace was originally in Hyde Park so they're a team named after something that couldn't stay where it belonged. Even worse.
Both clubs are chite miserable entities, but there is a certain amount of authenticity about Millwall whereas Crystal Palace are a plastic concocted confection of crap.
Exactly. Millwall are a South London club. Palace are not.
Milwal are not a South London club.
Formed by Scots, they play in Scottish colours and have a Scottish badge. And Millwall is NORTH of the river
Both clubs are chite miserable entities, but there is a certain amount of authenticity about Millwall whereas Crystal Palace are a plastic concocted confection of crap.
Exactly. Millwall are a South London club. Palace are not.
Milwal are not a South London club.
Formed by Scots, they play in Scottish colours and have a Scottish badge. And Millwall is NORTH of the river
1905 Charlton - Millwall moved to the correct side of the river 1910 - read it and weep 😉
Ok, clutching at straws here, but you was still a boys club in 1905. We was a professional club playing in SE London before Charlton were.
😁
"Professional" doing at lot of work here.
And by 1910 the boys were five years older so 19/20/21 years old
Still didn’t turn pro until 1920. So Millwall are the oldest professional football club in South London 😉
I always take the view that a football club should be named after the community within which it is located and purports to engage with and represent.
Bermondsey FC perhaps or were Millwall the first Franchise FC?
They were just copying Palace, Chelsea and Liverpool, all created as franchises to utilise existing stadia
Existing stadia? The old den?
Truth is, as a club, Millwall out grew the island. We was actually quite a big and well supported club then. As the crow flies we didn’t actually move that far. And even as recently as the 80’s and 90’s you’d still get plenty of islanders walking through the pipe to come and watch home games.
Didn't move that far? There's a big f*ck off strip of water there - and we all know that the wrong side of the river is north.
Ok - this is NOT exhaustive, and I have had a fair few pints of Guinness - I start 36/37 season
68,160 vs Arsenal Average 31,086
37/38
55,078 vs Arsenal 51,125 vs Chelsea 75,031 vs Villa Average 28,336
38/39
51,479 vs Arsenal Average 25,617
45/46 (I have skipped war years)
50,000 vs Derby (suspiciously ‘clean’ number !!) (strangely only 38,450 vs Arsenal) Average 28,991
46/47
57,983 vs Arsenal Average 32,401
47/48
60,323 vs Arsenal 58,866 vs Chelsea Average 36,248
48/49
51,517 vs Arsenal 56,294 vs Birmingham 55,291 vs Man U 56,711 vs Newcastle 61,475 vs Pompey Average 40,216
49/50
51,615 vs Arsenal Average 34,567
50/51
63,539 vs Arsenal 61,480 vs Spurs Average 29,293
51/52
57,031 vs Arsenal Average 27,609
52/53
66,555 vs Arsenal Average 25,298
53/54
60,259 vs Arsenal 56,664 vs Blackpool Average 28,803
And after that ……. the decline began 😢
And before @MillwallFan comes back with how many Arsenal games are in that list, Millwall’s record attendance is 48,762, so not over 50,000, which Charlton - as we can see - have eclipsed many times
Thanking you
Sort of proves my point, comparing your averages to biggest gates. Big fluctuations.
My theory is there wasn’t many other forms of entertainment back then. People didn’t even have tv’s in their homes. So if there was a big cup game or local Derby, people from all over would attend, regardless of whether they was Charlton fans or not. If the ground holds the numbers , which yours did, people would come.
Football wasn’t so tribal then. Take my old grandad, he was fundamentally Millwall, but he just loved football and would go and watch it anywhere. If there was a big cup game somewhere else in London he would go and watch it. He used to go the valley, Stamford bridge, the Orient, all over. And of course you could just turn up and pay on the gate then.
Our grandad as a kid sold his best pair of trousers for 6d so he could go to Millwall.
Ok - this is NOT exhaustive, and I have had a fair few pints of Guinness - I start 36/37 season
68,160 vs Arsenal Average 31,086
37/38
55,078 vs Arsenal 51,125 vs Chelsea 75,031 vs Villa Average 28,336
38/39
51,479 vs Arsenal Average 25,617
45/46 (I have skipped war years)
50,000 vs Derby (suspiciously ‘clean’ number !!) (strangely only 38,450 vs Arsenal) Average 28,991
46/47
57,983 vs Arsenal Average 32,401
47/48
60,323 vs Arsenal 58,866 vs Chelsea Average 36,248
48/49
51,517 vs Arsenal 56,294 vs Birmingham 55,291 vs Man U 56,711 vs Newcastle 61,475 vs Pompey Average 40,216
49/50
51,615 vs Arsenal Average 34,567
50/51
63,539 vs Arsenal 61,480 vs Spurs Average 29,293
51/52
57,031 vs Arsenal Average 27,609
52/53
66,555 vs Arsenal Average 25,298
53/54
60,259 vs Arsenal 56,664 vs Blackpool Average 28,803
And after that ……. the decline began 😢
And before @MillwallFan comes back with how many Arsenal games are in that list, Millwall’s record attendance is 48,762, so not over 50,000, which Charlton - as we can see - have eclipsed many times
Thanking you
Sort of proves my point, comparing your averages to biggest gates. Big fluctuations.
My theory is there wasn’t many other forms of entertainment back then. People didn’t even have tv’s in their homes. So if there was a big cup game or local Derby, people from all over would attend, regardless of whether they was Charlton fans or not. If the ground holds the numbers , which yours did, people would come.
Football wasn’t so tribal then. Take my old grandad, he was fundamentally Millwall, but he just loved football and would go and watch it anywhere. If there was a big cup game somewhere else in London he would go and watch it. He used to go the valley, Stamford bridge, the Orient, all over. And of course you could just turn up and pay on the gate then.
SO do you have comparable stats for Millwall over the same period (I don’t) - we were a BIG club back then - on par with Man U, Arsenal, Spurs etc etc
Yes big ground - but we (almost) filled it many many times
We was in Division three south that season (two divisions below you). Would regularly get 25k+ even against teams like Torquay and Clapton. Ours would fluctuate a bit as well. a few in the teens. And the odd random low crowd. But mostly over 20k. Got over 30k on five different occasions. Biggest gate of the season was v Swindon, 38500. Biggest cup attendance was 38100 v Man City.
The following season, 38/39, was a golden time for us. In division two this time we got well over 30k on 13 different occasions, including 38500 v Grimsby in the cup! Then Hitler came along and ruined the party and it’s been downhill every since 😢
i don't think the second world war impacted any club as much as us - we had gone from 3rd division to runners up in the top division between 37 and 39 and quite possibly would have gone on to win the league had the war not broke out - huge crowds were filling the the massive ground and it probably would have been redeveloped and we truly may have become one of the established big London clubs but he ho - the likes of palace and west ham were lower division irrelevances back then and didn't really do anything til the 60@s and 70's in palace's case just as we were in a slump.
Looking at those figures last night, some of our smallest gates were v west ham …ironically. We got more v the likes of Watford and Southend.
They really were a bit of a nothing club back then.
In the old days before computers did it, we used to hear stories about how the fixture list was compiled. I seem to remember that clubs would say which other clubs they didn’t want to clash with. There was a reason for that, because people (like my father) would go to the football of a Saturday nearby. I am pretty sure it was Millwall and Charlton that avoided a clash. I suspect for Pal lice they avoided clashing with Tooting and Mitcham but I will need to check with Louis Mend.
Ok - this is NOT exhaustive, and I have had a fair few pints of Guinness - I start 36/37 season
68,160 vs Arsenal Average 31,086
37/38
55,078 vs Arsenal 51,125 vs Chelsea 75,031 vs Villa Average 28,336
38/39
51,479 vs Arsenal Average 25,617
45/46 (I have skipped war years)
50,000 vs Derby (suspiciously ‘clean’ number !!) (strangely only 38,450 vs Arsenal) Average 28,991
46/47
57,983 vs Arsenal Average 32,401
47/48
60,323 vs Arsenal 58,866 vs Chelsea Average 36,248
48/49
51,517 vs Arsenal 56,294 vs Birmingham 55,291 vs Man U 56,711 vs Newcastle 61,475 vs Pompey Average 40,216
49/50
51,615 vs Arsenal Average 34,567
50/51
63,539 vs Arsenal 61,480 vs Spurs Average 29,293
51/52
57,031 vs Arsenal Average 27,609
52/53
66,555 vs Arsenal Average 25,298
53/54
60,259 vs Arsenal 56,664 vs Blackpool Average 28,803
And after that ……. the decline began 😢
And before @MillwallFan comes back with how many Arsenal games are in that list, Millwall’s record attendance is 48,762, so not over 50,000, which Charlton - as we can see - have eclipsed many times
Thanking you
Sort of proves my point, comparing your averages to biggest gates. Big fluctuations.
My theory is there wasn’t many other forms of entertainment back then. People didn’t even have tv’s in their homes. So if there was a big cup game or local Derby, people from all over would attend, regardless of whether they was Charlton fans or not. If the ground holds the numbers , which yours did, people would come.
Football wasn’t so tribal then. Take my old grandad, he was fundamentally Millwall, but he just loved football and would go and watch it anywhere. If there was a big cup game somewhere else in London he would go and watch it. He used to go the valley, Stamford bridge, the Orient, all over. And of course you could just turn up and pay on the gate then.
SO do you have comparable stats for Millwall over the same period (I don’t) - we were a BIG club back then - on par with Man U, Arsenal, Spurs etc etc
Yes big ground - but we (almost) filled it many many times
We was in Division three south that season (two divisions below you). Would regularly get 25k+ even against teams like Torquay and Clapton. Ours would fluctuate a bit as well. a few in the teens. And the odd random low crowd. But mostly over 20k. Got over 30k on five different occasions. Biggest gate of the season was v Swindon, 38500. Biggest cup attendance was 38100 v Man City.
The following season, 38/39, was a golden time for us. In division two this time we got well over 30k on 13 different occasions, including 38500 v Grimsby in the cup! Then Hitler came along and ruined the party and it’s been downhill every since 😢
i don't think the second world war impacted any club as much as us - we had gone from 3rd division to runners up in the top division between 37 and 39 and quite possibly would have gone on to win the league had the war not broke out - huge crowds were filling the the massive ground and it probably would have been redeveloped and we truly may have become one of the established big London clubs but he ho - the likes of palace and west ham were lower division irrelevances back then and didn't really do anything til the 60@s and 70's in palace's case just as we were in a slump.
Looking at those figures last night, some of our smallest gates were v west ham …ironically. We got more v the likes of Watford and Southend.
They really were a bit of a nothing club back then.
Bobby Moore says in his autobiography that although West Ham were his local club he used to get the woolwich ferry and watch charlton and was a charlton fan - how times have changed - billy bonds was a charlton fan from eltham and by the 70’s had to move from charlton to West Ham to further his career
Ok - this is NOT exhaustive, and I have had a fair few pints of Guinness - I start 36/37 season
68,160 vs Arsenal Average 31,086
37/38
55,078 vs Arsenal 51,125 vs Chelsea 75,031 vs Villa Average 28,336
38/39
51,479 vs Arsenal Average 25,617
45/46 (I have skipped war years)
50,000 vs Derby (suspiciously ‘clean’ number !!) (strangely only 38,450 vs Arsenal) Average 28,991
46/47
57,983 vs Arsenal Average 32,401
47/48
60,323 vs Arsenal 58,866 vs Chelsea Average 36,248
48/49
51,517 vs Arsenal 56,294 vs Birmingham 55,291 vs Man U 56,711 vs Newcastle 61,475 vs Pompey Average 40,216
49/50
51,615 vs Arsenal Average 34,567
50/51
63,539 vs Arsenal 61,480 vs Spurs Average 29,293
51/52
57,031 vs Arsenal Average 27,609
52/53
66,555 vs Arsenal Average 25,298
53/54
60,259 vs Arsenal 56,664 vs Blackpool Average 28,803
And after that ……. the decline began 😢
And before @MillwallFan comes back with how many Arsenal games are in that list, Millwall’s record attendance is 48,762, so not over 50,000, which Charlton - as we can see - have eclipsed many times
Thanking you
Sort of proves my point, comparing your averages to biggest gates. Big fluctuations.
My theory is there wasn’t many other forms of entertainment back then. People didn’t even have tv’s in their homes. So if there was a big cup game or local Derby, people from all over would attend, regardless of whether they was Charlton fans or not. If the ground holds the numbers , which yours did, people would come.
Football wasn’t so tribal then. Take my old grandad, he was fundamentally Millwall, but he just loved football and would go and watch it anywhere. If there was a big cup game somewhere else in London he would go and watch it. He used to go the valley, Stamford bridge, the Orient, all over. And of course you could just turn up and pay on the gate then.
SO do you have comparable stats for Millwall over the same period (I don’t) - we were a BIG club back then - on par with Man U, Arsenal, Spurs etc etc
Yes big ground - but we (almost) filled it many many times
We was in Division three south that season (two divisions below you). Would regularly get 25k+ even against teams like Torquay and Clapton. Ours would fluctuate a bit as well. a few in the teens. And the odd random low crowd. But mostly over 20k. Got over 30k on five different occasions. Biggest gate of the season was v Swindon, 38500. Biggest cup attendance was 38100 v Man City.
The following season, 38/39, was a golden time for us. In division two this time we got well over 30k on 13 different occasions, including 38500 v Grimsby in the cup! Then Hitler came along and ruined the party and it’s been downhill every since 😢
i don't think the second world war impacted any club as much as us - we had gone from 3rd division to runners up in the top division between 37 and 39 and quite possibly would have gone on to win the league had the war not broke out - huge crowds were filling the the massive ground and it probably would have been redeveloped and we truly may have become one of the established big London clubs but he ho - the likes of palace and west ham were lower division irrelevances back then and didn't really do anything til the 60@s and 70's in palace's case just as we were in a slump.
Looking at those figures last night, some of our smallest gates were v west ham …ironically. We got more v the likes of Watford and Southend.
They really were a bit of a nothing club back then.
Bobby Moore says in his autobiography that although West Ham were his local club he used to get the woolwich ferry and watch charlton and was a charlton fan - how times have changed - billy bonds was a charlton fan from eltham and by the 70’s had to move from charlton to West Ham to further his career
That means that Charlton won the World Cup in 66 😉
Ok - this is NOT exhaustive, and I have had a fair few pints of Guinness - I start 36/37 season
68,160 vs Arsenal Average 31,086
37/38
55,078 vs Arsenal 51,125 vs Chelsea 75,031 vs Villa Average 28,336
38/39
51,479 vs Arsenal Average 25,617
45/46 (I have skipped war years)
50,000 vs Derby (suspiciously ‘clean’ number !!) (strangely only 38,450 vs Arsenal) Average 28,991
46/47
57,983 vs Arsenal Average 32,401
47/48
60,323 vs Arsenal 58,866 vs Chelsea Average 36,248
48/49
51,517 vs Arsenal 56,294 vs Birmingham 55,291 vs Man U 56,711 vs Newcastle 61,475 vs Pompey Average 40,216
49/50
51,615 vs Arsenal Average 34,567
50/51
63,539 vs Arsenal 61,480 vs Spurs Average 29,293
51/52
57,031 vs Arsenal Average 27,609
52/53
66,555 vs Arsenal Average 25,298
53/54
60,259 vs Arsenal 56,664 vs Blackpool Average 28,803
And after that ……. the decline began 😢
And before @MillwallFan comes back with how many Arsenal games are in that list, Millwall’s record attendance is 48,762, so not over 50,000, which Charlton - as we can see - have eclipsed many times
Thanking you
Sort of proves my point, comparing your averages to biggest gates. Big fluctuations.
My theory is there wasn’t many other forms of entertainment back then. People didn’t even have tv’s in their homes. So if there was a big cup game or local Derby, people from all over would attend, regardless of whether they was Charlton fans or not. If the ground holds the numbers , which yours did, people would come.
Football wasn’t so tribal then. Take my old grandad, he was fundamentally Millwall, but he just loved football and would go and watch it anywhere. If there was a big cup game somewhere else in London he would go and watch it. He used to go the valley, Stamford bridge, the Orient, all over. And of course you could just turn up and pay on the gate then.
SO do you have comparable stats for Millwall over the same period (I don’t) - we were a BIG club back then - on par with Man U, Arsenal, Spurs etc etc
Yes big ground - but we (almost) filled it many many times
We was in Division three south that season (two divisions below you). Would regularly get 25k+ even against teams like Torquay and Clapton. Ours would fluctuate a bit as well. a few in the teens. And the odd random low crowd. But mostly over 20k. Got over 30k on five different occasions. Biggest gate of the season was v Swindon, 38500. Biggest cup attendance was 38100 v Man City.
The following season, 38/39, was a golden time for us. In division two this time we got well over 30k on 13 different occasions, including 38500 v Grimsby in the cup! Then Hitler came along and ruined the party and it’s been downhill every since 😢
i don't think the second world war impacted any club as much as us - we had gone from 3rd division to runners up in the top division between 37 and 39 and quite possibly would have gone on to win the league had the war not broke out - huge crowds were filling the the massive ground and it probably would have been redeveloped and we truly may have become one of the established big London clubs but he ho - the likes of palace and west ham were lower division irrelevances back then and didn't really do anything til the 60@s and 70's in palace's case just as we were in a slump.
Looking at those figures last night, some of our smallest gates were v west ham …ironically. We got more v the likes of Watford and Southend.
They really were a bit of a nothing club back then.
Bobby Moore says in his autobiography that although West Ham were his local club he used to get the woolwich ferry and watch charlton and was a charlton fan - how times have changed - billy bonds was a charlton fan from eltham and by the 70’s had to move from charlton to West Ham to further his career
Correct - Moore supported Charlton, as we played better football than West Ham
The whole page, incl away games - some big numbers here
I suspect some of the games in the 70s and early 80s might have boosted the averages if they weren’t just ‘20k’or ‘30k’ when we were all squeezed in and could see the gangways clearly defined all around the ground (always the clear sign that the terracing was jammed packed)
In the old days before computers did it, we used to hear stories about how the fixture list was compiled. I seem to remember that clubs would say which other clubs they didn’t want to clash with. There was a reason for that, because people (like my father) would go to the football of a Saturday nearby. I am pretty sure it was Millwall and Charlton that avoided a clash. I suspect for Pal lice they avoided clashing with Tooting and Mitcham but I will need to check with Louis Mend.
I thought Brighton were their 'local' rivals?
Says it all really - no good, low life, stripey c***s (not Brighton!).
Of course at home to WHU league Cup 1976 should be on that list for sure, probably Spurs 1977 and QPR league Cup 1975 too.
All about avoiding tax by the club and ticket money by bunking fans.
That WHU game I remember well I was 15 and being late into the ground ran straight into my normal spit in the covered end and once in realised that it was totally full of WH fans. Shit myself the whole game 🤭
Of course at home to WHU league Cup 1976 should be on that list for sure, probably Spurs 1977 and QPR league Cup 1975 too.
All about avoiding tax by the club and ticket money by bunking fans.
That WHU game I remember well I was 15 and being late into the ground ran straight into my normal spit in the covered end and once in realised that it was totally full of WH fans. Shit myself the whole game 🤭
I was high up on the East Terrace watching all the fun!
Of course at home to WHU league Cup 1976 should be on that list for sure, probably Spurs 1977 and QPR league Cup 1975 too.
All about avoiding tax by the club and ticket money by bunking fans.
That WHU game I remember well I was 15 and being late into the ground ran straight into my normal spit in the covered end and once in realised that it was totally full of WH fans. Shit myself the whole game 🤭
Me and my mates were literally kicked out of the Covered End by the Mile End lot once we started singing … one of the rare times we lost the Covered End.
You lost momentum? We finished 2nd, 4th and 3rd in Division 1 in the three seasons preceding World War 2. Fair to say that Hitler cost us at least one league title.
That’s brutal.
We was the 11th best supported club in the country in 1939 and one of the wealthiest, despite being in the second division. We was signing a couple of internationals and was on the verge of promotion to the top flight, when war broke out, according to my grandad it was nailed on, god rest his soul.
During the blitz our ground got bombed and a week later a fire broke out in the main stand and it completely burnt it to the ground.
SE London and the docks suffered disproportionately badly during the war. I read somewhere that Bermondsey was the most bombed part of London during the blitz.
Can you imagine if WW2 never happened? It could well be that Charlton and Millwall would have ended up the Spurs/Arsenal of today, and those two could’ve been flipping between the championship and L1.
Slidding doors moments in history.
I remember my Grandad telling me about the Den getting bombed, he had worked at the ground before the war. Peckham in particular was mentioned as being devastated by V2's late on in the war.
Yup - I used to talk to my ex girlfriends Mum about the war, she lived with her husband in Rotherhithe.
She told me that she was once on her way to her local shops when a V2 came down and basically obliterated them when she was a couple of hundred yards away.
"What did you do?" I asked her.
"Oh, it was a right palaver," she replied, "I had to walk a good couple of miles to some other shops to get Bill (her husband) his dinner."
Can we even imagine that? These days that would freak us out to an unbelievable degree but back then this tiny Cockney, about five foot tall and seven stone wringing wet, just got on with her day and went home and cooked dinner!
That generation were a different class.
A shop in the East End got bombed. Next day it had a sign saying 'More open than usual.'
Of course at home to WHU league Cup 1976 should be on that list for sure, probably Spurs 1977 and QPR league Cup 1975 too.
All about avoiding tax by the club and ticket money by bunking fans.
That WHU game I remember well I was 15 and being late into the ground ran straight into my normal spit in the covered end and once in realised that it was totally full of WH fans. Shit myself the whole game 🤭
Me and my mates were literally kicked out of the Covered End by the Mile End lot once we started singing … one of the rare times we lost the Covered End.
Didn’t Millwall always go in the covered end in numbers? Before my time (doing away games anyway) but heard that we did.
Of course at home to WHU league Cup 1976 should be on that list for sure, probably Spurs 1977 and QPR league Cup 1975 too.
All about avoiding tax by the club and ticket money by bunking fans.
That WHU game I remember well I was 15 and being late into the ground ran straight into my normal spit in the covered end and once in realised that it was totally full of WH fans. Shit myself the whole game 🤭
Me and my mates were literally kicked out of the Covered End by the Mile End lot once we started singing … one of the rare times we lost the Covered End.
Didn’t Millwall always go in the covered end in numbers? Before my time (doing away games anyway) but heard that we did.
Depends how many Pompey turned up at London Bridge pre match.
Comments
1935-2009 …. 4 seasons in the third tier
2009 to present 8 seasons and counting in this shit house league …. Shameful
You just hope he wasn't wearing them at the time.
I seem to remember that clubs would say which other clubs they didn’t want to clash with.
There was a reason for that, because people (like my father) would go to the football of a Saturday nearby.
I am pretty sure it was Millwall and Charlton that avoided a clash.
I suspect for Pal lice they avoided clashing with Tooting and Mitcham but I will need to check with Louis Mend.
Yep 50k that'll do.
All about avoiding tax by the club and ticket money by bunking fans.
taking over 74,000 up to Everton is impressive. Plus the 55,000 that made the journey to Rome is incredible, hats off to them.
I was high up on the East Terrace watching all the fun!
A shop in the East End got bombed. Next day it had a sign saying 'More open than usual.'