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Post-Match thread; Charlton Athletic Vs Barnsley | Saturday 14th January 2023-KO 3-00 PM

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  • And to reiterate, I reckon Holden's pragmatism is probably ideal when you have a compromised squad. I'd also like to see what he can do with all the tools he wanted, however.

    I'm also going to row back slightly on the 'Garner wasn't pragmatic' idea - he DID go 4-4-2, which probably wasn't the original plan. But it is true that he didn't pragmatise when it came to overall playing style
  • edited January 2023
    I didn’t see yesterdays game but was very pleased for us to win against a Barnsley side I watched outplay us over 90 minutes up at Oakwell in September. It’s worth remembering I think, just how much Charlton are a transitional team. New manager, new players and new system. I still don’t think that we have even a first eleven that’s good enough to challenge, let alone squad. I’m still hoping that first eleven will be addressed this window. Edun and two or three more first team ready might tip the present unbalance. Of course all the hopes in the world won’t amount to a hill of beans if what’s going on behind the scenes doesn’t work out. 
    Agree it’s the depth of the squad that’s the issue. 

                   AMB
    Egbo Inniss Ness Sessegnon
    …make up a very good defence. O’Connell, Kane and potentially Edun add depth. Lavelle is just about ok as cover. 

    Leaburn, Bonne, JRS & CBT are good options up top. Campbell also coming through. Can’t see us bringing in another striker, although it would help if we did. 
    Midfield is slightly lacking though, and it was overrun yesterday. Dobbo & Fraser are starters. Morgan & Payne are nearly men. Clare is unproven in the role. Henry is developing nicely. But would like to see another first choicer brought in to bolster the midfield, if we want to make a (probably futile) push for the playoffs. 
  • Leuth said:
    The 'Garner was rubbish' narrative has settled in well and truly then, unfairly I might add. Holden has done well. Like Garner before him he's identified an effective system and unlike Garner he's shown some pragmatism. The biggest spanner in Garner's works was player availability. I'd advise checking his points gained with Leaburn available versus Leaburn not available. Losing EOC, Sessegnon, Egbo at points also screwed him over. The last three games have been good, but Holden has indisputably had a FAR better squad to choose from than the one that stumbled through Garner's last few games 
    Key difference between the two at the minute is that Holden isn’t afraid to change formations to suit the players he has available to him.
  • CAFCsayer said:
    Leuth said:
    The 'Garner was rubbish' narrative has settled in well and truly then, unfairly I might add. Holden has done well. Like Garner before him he's identified an effective system and unlike Garner he's shown some pragmatism. The biggest spanner in Garner's works was player availability. I'd advise checking his points gained with Leaburn available versus Leaburn not available. Losing EOC, Sessegnon, Egbo at points also screwed him over. The last three games have been good, but Holden has indisputably had a FAR better squad to choose from than the one that stumbled through Garner's last few games 
    Key difference between the two at the minute is that Holden isn’t afraid to change formations to suit the players he has available to him.
    Garner changed to a 442 to try and suit Stockley. 
  • Cafc43v3r said:
    DOUCHER said:
    Southbank said:
    Leuth said:
    The 'Garner was rubbish' narrative has settled in well and truly then, unfairly I might add. Holden has done well. Like Garner before him he's identified an effective system and unlike Garner he's shown some pragmatism. The biggest spanner in Garner's works was player availability. I'd advise checking his points gained with Leaburn available versus Leaburn not available. Losing EOC, Sessegnon, Egbo at points also screwed him over. The last three games have been good, but Holden has indisputably had a FAR better squad to choose from than the one that stumbled through Garner's last few games 
    No, Garner insisted in playing a system that he did not have the players for. The passing around at the back was hideous to watch and often  dangerous with the defenders not being up to it. We ended up losing games where we had 60% possession.

    Holden has dumped that quite rightly and Inniss in particular has benefited, and the defence in general.

    Garner also had one fit experienced Centre Forward and played a system that he could not fit in to. Fortunately Miles came through at the right time to compensate for that a little.

    Garner was operating from the trendy coaching manual not the real world of actual players with their skills and limitations and it nearly got us in the relegation zone.
    100% agreed - he was partly culpable in leaving us with that lack of striker situation and totally culpable for the style of play 
    I think it's a bit harsh on Garner.  Take yesterday as a good example.  I know Kane only lasted 45 minutes but that would have been Chin in December.  We had Leaburn, Bonne and Stockley avaliable, how many times did Garner have 3 strikers avaliable?

    Ness has come on leaps and bounds in the last 6 weeks which means Lavelle is nowhere near the match day squad now EOC and Thomas, are fit.

    Lavelle and Chin start yesterday and Stockley comes on for Leaburn we don't win that.

    Yes the passing out from the back became a liability, especially with Innis, Lavelle, MacGillivray and no left back.

    The not signing a striker and another left back in the summer cost us more points than Garner personally did.

    The last 3 managers were ultimately hamstrung by the make up of the squad and if we don't get the last 2 or 3 players we need, so will Holden.
    no - we have partly addressed the striker situation already - we had the whole summer to do that and didn't, despite bringing in umpteen new players - garner thought stockley could do the lone striker role so wasn't as bothered as he should have been - inexcusable poor judgement and the passing it around at the back nonsense just made it worse   
  • DOUCHER said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    DOUCHER said:
    Southbank said:
    Leuth said:
    The 'Garner was rubbish' narrative has settled in well and truly then, unfairly I might add. Holden has done well. Like Garner before him he's identified an effective system and unlike Garner he's shown some pragmatism. The biggest spanner in Garner's works was player availability. I'd advise checking his points gained with Leaburn available versus Leaburn not available. Losing EOC, Sessegnon, Egbo at points also screwed him over. The last three games have been good, but Holden has indisputably had a FAR better squad to choose from than the one that stumbled through Garner's last few games 
    No, Garner insisted in playing a system that he did not have the players for. The passing around at the back was hideous to watch and often  dangerous with the defenders not being up to it. We ended up losing games where we had 60% possession.

    Holden has dumped that quite rightly and Inniss in particular has benefited, and the defence in general.

    Garner also had one fit experienced Centre Forward and played a system that he could not fit in to. Fortunately Miles came through at the right time to compensate for that a little.

    Garner was operating from the trendy coaching manual not the real world of actual players with their skills and limitations and it nearly got us in the relegation zone.
    100% agreed - he was partly culpable in leaving us with that lack of striker situation and totally culpable for the style of play 
    I think it's a bit harsh on Garner.  Take yesterday as a good example.  I know Kane only lasted 45 minutes but that would have been Chin in December.  We had Leaburn, Bonne and Stockley avaliable, how many times did Garner have 3 strikers avaliable?

    Ness has come on leaps and bounds in the last 6 weeks which means Lavelle is nowhere near the match day squad now EOC and Thomas, are fit.

    Lavelle and Chin start yesterday and Stockley comes on for Leaburn we don't win that.

    Yes the passing out from the back became a liability, especially with Innis, Lavelle, MacGillivray and no left back.

    The not signing a striker and another left back in the summer cost us more points than Garner personally did.

    The last 3 managers were ultimately hamstrung by the make up of the squad and if we don't get the last 2 or 3 players we need, so will Holden.
    no - we have partly addressed the striker situation already - we had the whole summer to do that and didn't, despite bringing in umpteen new players - garner thought stockley could do the lone striker role so wasn't as bothered as he should have been - inexcusable poor judgement and the passing it around at the back nonsense just made it worse   
    I think Garner probably had no real choice about backing Stockley for the lone striker role. He is probably our highest paid player, was captain, I think there was a huge expectation upon Garner that Stockley was a mainstay. That meant we couldn't really sign a backup of quality either because which quality striker would come in as a backup.
  • edited January 2023
    DOUCHER said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    DOUCHER said:
    Southbank said:
    Leuth said:
    The 'Garner was rubbish' narrative has settled in well and truly then, unfairly I might add. Holden has done well. Like Garner before him he's identified an effective system and unlike Garner he's shown some pragmatism. The biggest spanner in Garner's works was player availability. I'd advise checking his points gained with Leaburn available versus Leaburn not available. Losing EOC, Sessegnon, Egbo at points also screwed him over. The last three games have been good, but Holden has indisputably had a FAR better squad to choose from than the one that stumbled through Garner's last few games 
    No, Garner insisted in playing a system that he did not have the players for. The passing around at the back was hideous to watch and often  dangerous with the defenders not being up to it. We ended up losing games where we had 60% possession.

    Holden has dumped that quite rightly and Inniss in particular has benefited, and the defence in general.

    Garner also had one fit experienced Centre Forward and played a system that he could not fit in to. Fortunately Miles came through at the right time to compensate for that a little.

    Garner was operating from the trendy coaching manual not the real world of actual players with their skills and limitations and it nearly got us in the relegation zone.
    100% agreed - he was partly culpable in leaving us with that lack of striker situation and totally culpable for the style of play 
    I think it's a bit harsh on Garner.  Take yesterday as a good example.  I know Kane only lasted 45 minutes but that would have been Chin in December.  We had Leaburn, Bonne and Stockley avaliable, how many times did Garner have 3 strikers avaliable?

    Ness has come on leaps and bounds in the last 6 weeks which means Lavelle is nowhere near the match day squad now EOC and Thomas, are fit.

    Lavelle and Chin start yesterday and Stockley comes on for Leaburn we don't win that.

    Yes the passing out from the back became a liability, especially with Innis, Lavelle, MacGillivray and no left back.

    The not signing a striker and another left back in the summer cost us more points than Garner personally did.

    The last 3 managers were ultimately hamstrung by the make up of the squad and if we don't get the last 2 or 3 players we need, so will Holden.
    no - we have partly addressed the striker situation already - we had the whole summer to do that and didn't, despite bringing in umpteen new players - garner thought stockley could do the lone striker role so wasn't as bothered as he should have been - inexcusable poor judgement and the passing it around at the back nonsense just made it worse   
    Yes.  We tried to get a striker on deadline day.  You can't blame Garner for that falling through even if you don't rate the individual.

    We partly addressed the striker and fullback situation after Garner was sacked.  You can't blame Garner for failing with players we signed after he left.

    Edit:  this is the squad we had for the Cheltenham home game.  In hindsight AMB should have played instead of MacGillivray but there is no good formation, or system, with that lot...



  • We took care of Barnsley 
    We gave Barnsley the chop
    How many years have you been saving that?
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  • edited January 2023
    As for the ref. Largely ok but blew too quickly twice when team was in a promising position. One helped us and one helped them. Also I think he didn't spot some tough treatment on Leaburn which created something that could have been avoided within the game. Early on don't let things go. Set the tone.
  • edited January 2023
    .
  • NabySarr said:
    CAFCsayer said:
    Leuth said:
    The 'Garner was rubbish' narrative has settled in well and truly then, unfairly I might add. Holden has done well. Like Garner before him he's identified an effective system and unlike Garner he's shown some pragmatism. The biggest spanner in Garner's works was player availability. I'd advise checking his points gained with Leaburn available versus Leaburn not available. Losing EOC, Sessegnon, Egbo at points also screwed him over. The last three games have been good, but Holden has indisputably had a FAR better squad to choose from than the one that stumbled through Garner's last few games 
    Key difference between the two at the minute is that Holden isn’t afraid to change formations to suit the players he has available to him.
    Garner changed formation loads. Was doing very well with a 4-4-2 but then lost Leaburn, O’Connell and Egbo to injury. His problem was maybe that he didn’t change style but he has his way of playing and that was what he was brought in to do. When he had the players to do it we did very well. 

    Holden has done very well but I think if he hadn’t had Leaburn returning from injury he’d have done no better than Garner was doing. The players we have available has been more important than the manager in the dugout this season. When we’ve had decent availability we’ve performed at top 6 standard, when we haven’t we’ve been relegation standard 
    And this end bit makes this season so frustrating. If we’d added Bonne and a couple of defenders before the deadline in the summer then we’d be in or near the top 6 now 
  • mendonca said:
    For those wishing we sign up Holden - just learn from the Jacko scenario and take stock at the end of the season, when his contract is due. 
    I think a top half finish , with a team finishing the season in good morale should be enough to see his contract extended and the building blocks in place for a more serious challenge next year 
  • Stating the obvious, but I think playoffs will depend on who we have in the squad at the end of the transfer window and how long they remain uninjured, match fit and willing to give it their all in every match.
    Also probably reliant on some of the teams above us losing form and falling down the table.
    Going to be a hard and intense few months. 
  • 3 games ago we were looking at the teams below us. Now we can look at the teams from 7th and see how we could reach them within a few games. Yes there is a gap to the top 6 but will the top 6 teams all be in the top 6 at the end of the season and will another few wins put us within snapping distance of one or two of them?
  • CH4RLTON said:
    mendonca said:
    For those wishing we sign up Holden - just learn from the Jacko scenario and take stock at the end of the season, when his contract is due. 
    I think a top half finish , with a team finishing the season in good morale should be enough to see his contract extended and the building blocks in place for a more serious challenge next year 
    Even if we fall away like last season, we need to stick with a manager. If we don’t then we will end up with a squad built from recruitment by 6 different managers all with different formations/styles. We should’ve given Jackson a summer and we need to give Holden one
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  • Cafc43v3r said:
    DOUCHER said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    DOUCHER said:
    Southbank said:
    Leuth said:
    The 'Garner was rubbish' narrative has settled in well and truly then, unfairly I might add. Holden has done well. Like Garner before him he's identified an effective system and unlike Garner he's shown some pragmatism. The biggest spanner in Garner's works was player availability. I'd advise checking his points gained with Leaburn available versus Leaburn not available. Losing EOC, Sessegnon, Egbo at points also screwed him over. The last three games have been good, but Holden has indisputably had a FAR better squad to choose from than the one that stumbled through Garner's last few games 
    No, Garner insisted in playing a system that he did not have the players for. The passing around at the back was hideous to watch and often  dangerous with the defenders not being up to it. We ended up losing games where we had 60% possession.

    Holden has dumped that quite rightly and Inniss in particular has benefited, and the defence in general.

    Garner also had one fit experienced Centre Forward and played a system that he could not fit in to. Fortunately Miles came through at the right time to compensate for that a little.

    Garner was operating from the trendy coaching manual not the real world of actual players with their skills and limitations and it nearly got us in the relegation zone.
    100% agreed - he was partly culpable in leaving us with that lack of striker situation and totally culpable for the style of play 
    I think it's a bit harsh on Garner.  Take yesterday as a good example.  I know Kane only lasted 45 minutes but that would have been Chin in December.  We had Leaburn, Bonne and Stockley avaliable, how many times did Garner have 3 strikers avaliable?

    Ness has come on leaps and bounds in the last 6 weeks which means Lavelle is nowhere near the match day squad now EOC and Thomas, are fit.

    Lavelle and Chin start yesterday and Stockley comes on for Leaburn we don't win that.

    Yes the passing out from the back became a liability, especially with Innis, Lavelle, MacGillivray and no left back.

    The not signing a striker and another left back in the summer cost us more points than Garner personally did.

    The last 3 managers were ultimately hamstrung by the make up of the squad and if we don't get the last 2 or 3 players we need, so will Holden.
    no - we have partly addressed the striker situation already - we had the whole summer to do that and didn't, despite bringing in umpteen new players - garner thought stockley could do the lone striker role so wasn't as bothered as he should have been - inexcusable poor judgement and the passing it around at the back nonsense just made it worse   
    Yes.  We tried to get a striker on deadline day.  You can't blame Garner for that falling through even if you don't rate the individual.

    We partly addressed the striker and fullback situation after Garner was sacked.  You can't blame Garner for failing with players we signed after he left.

    Edit:  this is the squad we had for the Cheltenham home game.  In hindsight AMB should have played instead of MacGillivray but there is no good formation, or system, with that lot...



    i'm reasonably happy with bonne but yes i can blame garner for not prioritising a striker or 2 much earlier in the window
  • and anybody else who said a striker or 2 wasn't a priority in the summer need to have a word with themselves  
  • DOUCHER said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    DOUCHER said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    DOUCHER said:
    Southbank said:
    Leuth said:
    The 'Garner was rubbish' narrative has settled in well and truly then, unfairly I might add. Holden has done well. Like Garner before him he's identified an effective system and unlike Garner he's shown some pragmatism. The biggest spanner in Garner's works was player availability. I'd advise checking his points gained with Leaburn available versus Leaburn not available. Losing EOC, Sessegnon, Egbo at points also screwed him over. The last three games have been good, but Holden has indisputably had a FAR better squad to choose from than the one that stumbled through Garner's last few games 
    No, Garner insisted in playing a system that he did not have the players for. The passing around at the back was hideous to watch and often  dangerous with the defenders not being up to it. We ended up losing games where we had 60% possession.

    Holden has dumped that quite rightly and Inniss in particular has benefited, and the defence in general.

    Garner also had one fit experienced Centre Forward and played a system that he could not fit in to. Fortunately Miles came through at the right time to compensate for that a little.

    Garner was operating from the trendy coaching manual not the real world of actual players with their skills and limitations and it nearly got us in the relegation zone.
    100% agreed - he was partly culpable in leaving us with that lack of striker situation and totally culpable for the style of play 
    I think it's a bit harsh on Garner.  Take yesterday as a good example.  I know Kane only lasted 45 minutes but that would have been Chin in December.  We had Leaburn, Bonne and Stockley avaliable, how many times did Garner have 3 strikers avaliable?

    Ness has come on leaps and bounds in the last 6 weeks which means Lavelle is nowhere near the match day squad now EOC and Thomas, are fit.

    Lavelle and Chin start yesterday and Stockley comes on for Leaburn we don't win that.

    Yes the passing out from the back became a liability, especially with Innis, Lavelle, MacGillivray and no left back.

    The not signing a striker and another left back in the summer cost us more points than Garner personally did.

    The last 3 managers were ultimately hamstrung by the make up of the squad and if we don't get the last 2 or 3 players we need, so will Holden.
    no - we have partly addressed the striker situation already - we had the whole summer to do that and didn't, despite bringing in umpteen new players - garner thought stockley could do the lone striker role so wasn't as bothered as he should have been - inexcusable poor judgement and the passing it around at the back nonsense just made it worse   
    Yes.  We tried to get a striker on deadline day.  You can't blame Garner for that falling through even if you don't rate the individual.

    We partly addressed the striker and fullback situation after Garner was sacked.  You can't blame Garner for failing with players we signed after he left.

    Edit:  this is the squad we had for the Cheltenham home game.  In hindsight AMB should have played instead of MacGillivray but there is no good formation, or system, with that lot...



    i'm reasonably happy with bonne but yes i can blame garner for not prioritising a striker or 2 much earlier in the window
    We needed another. Garner wanted another. He didn't call the shots. But then when he didn't get one he planned it around recent Sheffield Wednesday target J Stockley. He wasn't to know just how atrocious that man would be 
  • Cafc43v3r said:
    DOUCHER said:
    and anybody else who said a striker or 2 wasn't a priority in the summer need to have a word with themselves  
    No one said that.  People also said we needed a left back.  The two weren't, and still aren't, mutually exclusive.  Anyone digging other fans for things no one ever said needs to have a word with themselve.
    not really - suck it up - this isn't personal to any fans but sometimes you should just accept when u get it wrong and they did get it wrong - we've played half a season with no centre forward 
  • Cafc43v3r said:
    DOUCHER said:
    and anybody else who said a striker or 2 wasn't a priority in the summer need to have a word with themselves  
    No one said that.  People also said we needed a left back.  The two weren't, and still aren't, mutually exclusive.  Anyone digging other fans for things no one ever said needs to have a word with themselve.
    Agreed. No one said we didn’t need striker, but quiet a few said they didn’t think it was a ‘priority’ compared to other positions.

    I know there’s lots of variables involved, but considering we are 5th in the table for goals for, and 17th for goals against - I think those defensive reinforcements were what we were really crying out for. 
  • Cafc43v3r said:
    DOUCHER said:
    and anybody else who said a striker or 2 wasn't a priority in the summer need to have a word with themselves  
    No one said that.  People also said we needed a left back.  The two weren't, and still aren't, mutually exclusive.  Anyone digging other fans for things no one ever said needs to have a word with themselve.
    Agreed. No one said we didn’t need striker, but quiet a few said they didn’t think it was a ‘priority’ compared to other positions.

    I know there’s lots of variables involved, but considering we are 5th in the table for goals for, and 17th for goals against - I think those defensive reinforcements were what we were really crying out for. 
    bingo - that's exactly what people were saying and what garner was saying and how wrong they were - we need a left back, yes but playing half a season with stockley as the only senior striker is shocking    
  • edited January 2023
    DOUCHER said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    DOUCHER said:
    and anybody else who said a striker or 2 wasn't a priority in the summer need to have a word with themselves  
    No one said that.  People also said we needed a left back.  The two weren't, and still aren't, mutually exclusive.  Anyone digging other fans for things no one ever said needs to have a word with themselve.
    Agreed. No one said we didn’t need striker, but quiet a few said they didn’t think it was a ‘priority’ compared to other positions.

    I know there’s lots of variables involved, but considering we are 5th in the table for goals for, and 17th for goals against - I think those defensive reinforcements were what we were really crying out for. 
    bingo - that's exactly what people were saying and what garner was saying and how wrong they were - we need a left back, yes but playing half a season with stockley as the only senior striker is shocking    
    But if Garner was not fused about a striker why did we nearly sign Bonne on deadline day?  For bants?
  • Cafc43v3r said:
    DOUCHER said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    DOUCHER said:
    and anybody else who said a striker or 2 wasn't a priority in the summer need to have a word with themselves  
    No one said that.  People also said we needed a left back.  The two weren't, and still aren't, mutually exclusive.  Anyone digging other fans for things no one ever said needs to have a word with themselve.
    Agreed. No one said we didn’t need striker, but quiet a few said they didn’t think it was a ‘priority’ compared to other positions.

    I know there’s lots of variables involved, but considering we are 5th in the table for goals for, and 17th for goals against - I think those defensive reinforcements were what we were really crying out for. 
    bingo - that's exactly what people were saying and what garner was saying and how wrong they were - we need a left back, yes but playing half a season with stockley as the only senior striker is shocking    
    But if Garner was not fused about a striker why did we nearly sign Bonne on deadline day?  For bants?
    why did he leave it to the final day / to chance ? it was THE priority signing!!! 
  • edited January 2023
    DOUCHER said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    DOUCHER said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    DOUCHER said:
    and anybody else who said a striker or 2 wasn't a priority in the summer need to have a word with themselves  
    No one said that.  People also said we needed a left back.  The two weren't, and still aren't, mutually exclusive.  Anyone digging other fans for things no one ever said needs to have a word with themselve.
    Agreed. No one said we didn’t need striker, but quiet a few said they didn’t think it was a ‘priority’ compared to other positions.

    I know there’s lots of variables involved, but considering we are 5th in the table for goals for, and 17th for goals against - I think those defensive reinforcements were what we were really crying out for. 
    bingo - that's exactly what people were saying and what garner was saying and how wrong they were - we need a left back, yes but playing half a season with stockley as the only senior striker is shocking    
    But if Garner was not fused about a striker why did we nearly sign Bonne on deadline day?  For bants?
    why did he leave it to the final day / to chance ? it was THE priority signing!!! 
    If you think any manager, for the last 2 and a half years, has a big influence on signings you want to give your head a wobble.  It's like when Bowyer said there were no center halves better than Gunter and Pratley.
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