Holden’s first game was Peterborough (H) on Boxing Day.
Before that game, we were 18th on 24 points from 21 games. Four points above relegation and ten points behind the top six. 1.14 points per game.
Ended the season in 10th on 62 points from 46. Seventeen points above relegation and fifteen behind the top six. We obtained 1.52 points per game from his 25 in charge.
A couple of key points to the PPG for Garner and Holden.
Garner: - was pretty hamstrung I'd say by needing to have Stockley as the focal point of a 4-3-3. I think at the start of the season it would have been untenable to drop Stockley (especially for Leaburn), as our captain and 1 of the highest paid players. And 4-3-3 was what we had planned for. With this problem, it was always destined to fail.
Holden: - by the time he came in, Stockley's position had weakened considerably due to a goal scoring drought, so dropping him was feasible. We were much better with a pacy front 3. - for the last third of the season we've not had anything to play for. I'd like to think we would have eaked out a few more points if we were still in the playoff hunt like the teams were that were above us.
A couple of additional pros and cons re the Garner side of the comparison.
The PPG stat of 1.14 is for the season at the point when Holden took charge of his first match not when Garner left in early December. I don't think we won a league game in between so his PPG might have been a little higher.
Garner could just have easily taken the decision to drop Stockers and even select a new skipper as Holden did. It was clear by October that it wasn't working and 433 was, I believe, Garner's favoured formation. I doubt it was foisted upon him and he too had all of those pacy front 3 options at his disposal. A lack of balls from BG perhaps.
Sorry I just don't see how getting a draw against Cheltenham even with the squad he has to choose from is a sign of a good manager
He can't physically defend on the pitch or stop mistakes from happening. Our defending has been woeful all season. I think it improved slightly with going back to basics as in can't play it out, get rid for a throwing etc.
He sets them up and by the sound of it we should have been out of sight first half. The squad isn't good enough and you can only polish a turd so much.
I think he did ok, as well as can be expected really. Had a remit to keep us up and he got us to 10th so that's a job well done. Let's not forget that he hasn't really had much of a chance to do what he wants in the transfer market. He had one window which was obviously a shit show because of the Methven/Andy Scott saga and no one knowing who was in charge, what was going to happen longer term.
Priority this summer (apart from a takeover and keeping Leaburn) has to be sorting out the defence. We scored 70 goals (only the top 4 and Peterborough scored more). But we let in 66, only 8 teams conceded more. MK Dons who were relegated conceded the same as us, so it's pretty easy to see where our problems are.
Sorry I just don't see how getting a draw against Cheltenham even with the squad he has to choose from is a sign of a good manager
We’re discussing how Holden did over the course of his time here, not one individual match. Do you think a specific thread is created to discuss the managers performance after every game?!
Sorry I just don't see how getting a draw against Cheltenham even with the squad he has to choose from is a sign of a good manager
Think this view is far too simplistic. He's taken over a League 1 club and he'll lose and draw, as well as win, against League 1 opposition. That is the situation we are in.
The question is (imo) - has Holden played his cards well since taking over? I'd personally say he has and give him an 8/10 for the short time he's been with us and with the effort he's put in, with the players at hand. So far, I also like his approach and think he speaks well.
Not really sure what anyone else could've done with the same
Sorry I just don't see how getting a draw against Cheltenham even with the squad he has to choose from is a sign of a good manager
Think this view is far too simplistic. He's taken over a League 1 club and he'll lose and draw, as well as win, against League 1 opposition. That is the situation we are in.
The question is (imo) - has Holden played his cards well since taking over? I'd personally say he has and give him an 8/10 for the short time he's been with us and with the effort he's put in, with the players at hand. So far, I also like his approach and think he speaks well.
Not really sure what anyone else could've done with the same
It s easy to forget the state we were in. Garner was distancing himself from it and blaming, rightly IMO, Sandgaard. A pub team could have set out to stop us and succeeded. Holden has done a great job and he hasn't finished yet. We should all wait until we see where we are next season, if he is supported to some degree, before any of us pass any negative judgment.
We have to find the right manager, and that involves giving the one in place a proper chance and full support. As Gribbo alluded to, what could anyone else do with the same? Anybody with a different view to that, well with all due respect, I don't know what they expected.
Sorry I just don't see how getting a draw against Cheltenham even with the squad he has to choose from is a sign of a good manager
We’re discussing how Holden did over the course of his time here, not one individual match. Do you think a specific thread is created to discuss the managers performance after every game?!
Don't you feel getting this draw shows. Exactly how he has done overall ? He's had more than enough time to beat a side below us in the league Last game of the season we should be going all out to get the win to finish on some sort of high instead we finish with another game where we underperformed Says it all IMO
Sorry I just don't see how getting a draw against Cheltenham even with the squad he has to choose from is a sign of a good manager
We’re discussing how Holden did over the course of his time here, not one individual match. Do you think a specific thread is created to discuss the managers performance after every game?!
Don't you feel getting this draw shows. Exactly how he has done overall ? He's had more than enough time to beat a side below us in the league Last game of the season we should be going all out to get the win to finish on some sort of high instead we finish with another game where we underperformed Says it all IMO
No I don't feel.this draw shows how he's done overall.
I feel the average points per game and league position in relation to where we were when he started shows how he's done overall.
Sorry I just don't see how getting a draw against Cheltenham even with the squad he has to choose from is a sign of a good manager
We’re discussing how Holden did over the course of his time here, not one individual match. Do you think a specific thread is created to discuss the managers performance after every game?!
Don't you feel getting this draw shows. Exactly how he has done overall ? He's had more than enough time to beat a side below us in the league Last game of the season we should be going all out to get the win to finish on some sort of high instead we finish with another game where we underperformed Says it all IMO
No I don't feel.this draw shows how he's done overall.
I feel the average points per game and league position in relation to where we were when he started shows how he's done overall.
Last game of the season shows exactly what his achieved & where his got us to which IMO not winning that game isn't good enough to show his the manager to take us forward & shows exactly how his done overall
Sorry I just don't see how getting a draw against Cheltenham even with the squad he has to choose from is a sign of a good manager
He can't physically defend on the pitch or stop mistakes from happening. Our defending has been woeful all season. I think it improved slightly with going back to basics as in can't play it out, get rid for a throwing etc.
He sets them up and by the sound of it we should have been out of sight first half. The squad isn't good enough and you can only polish a turd so much.
We actually conceded pretty much the same amount of league goals per game (1.4) under Holden as we did Garner.
Garner - 20 games, 28 goals conceded.
Holden - 26 games, 38 goals conceded.
Perception is a funny thing. Under Holden we were certainly ‘less possession based’, but it feels like some people assume that we never played long balls under Garner - or never pass it around the back under Holden.
When in reality it has not been as black and white as that. Furthermore I don’t think the apparent going back to basics with the way we play with the ball has anything to really do with the poor defending from set pieces, the general mistakes we make, and how open we were without the ball.
I’ve made no bones that I’m worried going into next season that if our defensive issues are not sorted we are going nowhere - and that I don’t just think it’s a personnel issue.
All that aside, on the whole, although we have been poor sometimes and it’s not always worked, I’ve enjoyed the football under Holden much more than the last few managers. It feels like he has the work ethic, man management, and desire to push the club forwards.
Its now down to whether he gets the right players and that has the coaching (and coaches) and tactical ability to do this.
Holden seems a good judge of character and he plays a pressing game, which I like to see. I hope he doesn't go 5-3-2 next season. That's the only thing that would give me serious pause (unless it worked, which would need a LOT of personnel changes)
I wouldn't say he's a vast improvement over Garner, whom I also liked. Sandgaard has fucked a lot up recently but his last two appointments are managers I've thought are intelligent, positive and not dickheads. And while Holden has done a good job firefighting our own struggles, Garner has literally saved a club from relegation out of the FL, so he clearly has some crisis management skills as well
The Garner love in from Leuth continues , when what he done with us was as bad a point return as anyone could have achieved with what was at his disposal .
The Garner love in from Leuth continues , when what he done with us was as bad a point return as anyone could have achieved with what was at his disposal .
What was at his disposal? Stockley up front, no proper fullbacks half the time and constantly a midfielder light of where we had to be?
Sorry I just don't see how getting a draw against Cheltenham even with the squad he has to choose from is a sign of a good manager
We’re discussing how Holden did over the course of his time here, not one individual match. Do you think a specific thread is created to discuss the managers performance after every game?!
Don't you feel getting this draw shows. Exactly how he has done overall ? He's had more than enough time to beat a side below us in the league Last game of the season we should be going all out to get the win to finish on some sort of high instead we finish with another game where we underperformed Says it all IMO
No I don't feel.this draw shows how he's done overall.
I feel the average points per game and league position in relation to where we were when he started shows how he's done overall.
Last game of the season shows exactly what his achieved & where his got us to which IMO not winning that game isn't good enough to show his the manager to take us forward & shows exactly how his done overall
So if we were getting relegated, but won the last game 10 - nil, you'd be happy?
1) I think Holden's done well by stabilising the ship when everything was pointing towards a prolonged period of utter chaos. For sure the team has looked weak in games against the better sides in this division, but I want to believe there's more to come.
2) I think our last two managerial appointments have been the right ones, and so Sandgaard deserves some credit for this. Where it's all gone wrong is (apparently) everything after the appointment. If we are ever going to get out of this division then TS needs to be working harder than he is at the moment. Look at the teams that are going up from L1 this season. What do they have in common?
TS cannot make a success of this unless he's outworking his competition.
We are where we are because our recruitment has not been good enough, and that is because TS did not provide the budget. Garner would have been fine if he had been backed, but I prefer Holden as I feel he gets more out of players and is more decisive.
It was a depressing camp when he took over and he had to turn that round quickly - which he did. It will be interesting to see who he lets go, and even more interesting who stays. Sess and Hector for example. If he keeps one of them I will be impressed.
Sorry I just don't see how getting a draw against Cheltenham even with the squad he has to choose from is a sign of a good manager
We’re discussing how Holden did over the course of his time here, not one individual match. Do you think a specific thread is created to discuss the managers performance after every game?!
Don't you feel getting this draw shows. Exactly how he has done overall ? He's had more than enough time to beat a side below us in the league Last game of the season we should be going all out to get the win to finish on some sort of high instead we finish with another game where we underperformed Says it all IMO
No I don't feel.this draw shows how he's done overall.
I feel the average points per game and league position in relation to where we were when he started shows how he's done overall.
Last game of the season shows exactly what his achieved & where his got us to which IMO not winning that game isn't good enough to show his the manager to take us forward & shows exactly how his done overall
So if we were getting relegated, but won the last game 10 - nil, you'd be happy?
What are you going on about it shows where we are after his time in charge so far & Coming out with things that not even real like us winning 10 -0 & going down is just silly But the fact we drew against a team that we should be beating is fact no I am not happy with our performance & the way we finished the season are you ? But like I have already said I would love for him to prove me wrong but personally I just don't see it
Sorry I just don't see how getting a draw against Cheltenham even with the squad he has to choose from is a sign of a good manager
We’re discussing how Holden did over the course of his time here, not one individual match. Do you think a specific thread is created to discuss the managers performance after every game?!
Don't you feel getting this draw shows. Exactly how he has done overall ? He's had more than enough time to beat a side below us in the league Last game of the season we should be going all out to get the win to finish on some sort of high instead we finish with another game where we underperformed Says it all IMO
No I don't feel.this draw shows how he's done overall.
I feel the average points per game and league position in relation to where we were when he started shows how he's done overall.
Last game of the season shows exactly what his achieved & where his got us to which IMO not winning that game isn't good enough to show his the manager to take us forward & shows exactly how his done overall
So if we were getting relegated, but won the last game 10 - nil, you'd be happy?
What are you going on about it shows where we are after his time in charge so far & Coming out with things that not even real like us winning 10 -0 & going down is just silly But the fact we drew against a team that we should be beating is fact no I am not happy with our performance & the way we finished the season are you ? But like I have already said I would love for him to prove me wrong but personally I just don't see it
You said - "Don't you feel getting this draw shows. Exactly how he has done overall ?"
I said that I thought points per game and league position in relation to where we were when he took over shows how he's done overall. (Whether you think that's good or bad is upto you)
Then you emphasised your point by saying - "Last game of the season shows exactly what his achieved & where his got us to which IMO not winning that game isn't good enough to show his the manager to take us forward & shows exactly how his done overall"
Sorry I just don't see how getting a draw against Cheltenham even with the squad he has to choose from is a sign of a good manager
We’re discussing how Holden did over the course of his time here, not one individual match. Do you think a specific thread is created to discuss the managers performance after every game?!
Don't you feel getting this draw shows. Exactly how he has done overall ? He's had more than enough time to beat a side below us in the league Last game of the season we should be going all out to get the win to finish on some sort of high instead we finish with another game where we underperformed Says it all IMO
No I don't feel.this draw shows how he's done overall.
I feel the average points per game and league position in relation to where we were when he started shows how he's done overall.
Last game of the season shows exactly what his achieved & where his got us to which IMO not winning that game isn't good enough to show his the manager to take us forward & shows exactly how his done overall
So if we were getting relegated, but won the last game 10 - nil, you'd be happy?
What are you going on about it shows where we are after his time in charge so far & Coming out with things that not even real like us winning 10 -0 & going down is just silly But the fact we drew against a team that we should be beating is fact no I am not happy with our performance & the way we finished the season are you ? But like I have already said I would love for him to prove me wrong but personally I just don't see it
You said - "Don't you feel getting this draw shows. Exactly how he has done overall ?"
I said that I thought points per game and league position in relation to where we were when he took over shows how he's done overall. (Whether you think that's good or bad is upto you)
Then you emphasised your point by saying - "Last game of the season shows exactly what his achieved & where his got us to which IMO not winning that game isn't good enough to show his the manager to take us forward & shows exactly how his done overall"
????
That's what I said & looking at our game yesterday shows he hasn't done good overall as that is where we are how can you not see that anyway I am not going to keep trying to explain what's plain to see yesterday wasn't good enough fact
Yesterday's game we were missing Dobbo and we took the lead and made lots of subs, blooding young players. Had the game had something on it, I'm pretty confident we would have won it.
Sorry I just don't see how getting a draw against Cheltenham even with the squad he has to choose from is a sign of a good manager
We’re discussing how Holden did over the course of his time here, not one individual match. Do you think a specific thread is created to discuss the managers performance after every game?!
Don't you feel getting this draw shows. Exactly how he has done overall ? He's had more than enough time to beat a side below us in the league Last game of the season we should be going all out to get the win to finish on some sort of high instead we finish with another game where we underperformed Says it all IMO
No I don't feel.this draw shows how he's done overall.
I feel the average points per game and league position in relation to where we were when he started shows how he's done overall.
Last game of the season shows exactly what his achieved & where his got us to which IMO not winning that game isn't good enough to show his the manager to take us forward & shows exactly how his done overall
So if we were getting relegated, but won the last game 10 - nil, you'd be happy?
What are you going on about it shows where we are after his time in charge so far & Coming out with things that not even real like us winning 10 -0 & going down is just silly But the fact we drew against a team that we should be beating is fact no I am not happy with our performance & the way we finished the season are you ? But like I have already said I would love for him to prove me wrong but personally I just don't see it
You said - "Don't you feel getting this draw shows. Exactly how he has done overall ?"
I said that I thought points per game and league position in relation to where we were when he took over shows how he's done overall. (Whether you think that's good or bad is upto you)
Then you emphasised your point by saying - "Last game of the season shows exactly what his achieved & where his got us to which IMO not winning that game isn't good enough to show his the manager to take us forward & shows exactly how his done overall"
????
That's what I said & looking at our game yesterday shows he hasn't done good overall as that is where we are how can you not see that anyway I am not going to keep trying to explain what's plain to see yesterday wasn't good enough fact
I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with it.
Comments
The PPG stat of 1.14 is for the season at the point when Holden took charge of his first match not when Garner left in early December. I don't think we won a league game in between so his PPG might have been a little higher.
Garner could just have easily taken the decision to drop Stockers and even select a new skipper as Holden did. It was clear by October that it wasn't working and 433 was, I believe, Garner's favoured formation. I doubt it was foisted upon him and he too had all of those pacy front 3 options at his disposal. A lack of balls from BG perhaps.
He sets them up and by the sound of it we should have been out of sight first half. The squad isn't good enough and you can only polish a turd so much.
Priority this summer (apart from a takeover and keeping Leaburn) has to be sorting out the defence. We scored 70 goals (only the top 4 and Peterborough scored more). But we let in 66, only 8 teams conceded more. MK Dons who were relegated conceded the same as us, so it's pretty easy to see where our problems are.
The question is (imo) - has Holden played his cards well since taking over? I'd personally say he has and give him an 8/10 for the short time he's been with us and with the effort he's put in, with the players at hand. So far, I also like his approach and think he speaks well.
Not really sure what anyone else could've done with the same
We have to find the right manager, and that involves giving the one in place a proper chance and full support. As Gribbo alluded to, what could anyone else do with the same? Anybody with a different view to that, well with all due respect, I don't know what they expected.
I feel the average points per game and league position in relation to where we were when he started shows how he's done overall.
Garner - 20 games, 28 goals conceded.
Holden - 26 games, 38 goals conceded.
Perception is a funny thing. Under Holden we were certainly ‘less possession based’, but it feels like some people assume that we never played long balls under Garner - or never pass it around the back under Holden.
When in reality it has not been as black and white as that. Furthermore I don’t think the apparent going back to basics with the way we play with the ball has anything to really do with the poor defending from set pieces, the general mistakes we make, and how open we were without the ball.
All that aside, on the whole, although we have been poor sometimes and it’s not always worked, I’ve enjoyed the football under Holden much more than the last few managers. It feels like he has the work ethic, man management, and desire to push the club forwards.
Its now down to whether he gets the right players and that has the coaching (and coaches) and tactical ability to do this.
I wouldn't say he's a vast improvement over Garner, whom I also liked. Sandgaard has fucked a lot up recently but his last two appointments are managers I've thought are intelligent, positive and not dickheads. And while Holden has done a good job firefighting our own struggles, Garner has literally saved a club from relegation out of the FL, so he clearly has some crisis management skills as well
2) I think our last two managerial appointments have been the right ones, and so Sandgaard deserves some credit for this. Where it's all gone wrong is (apparently) everything after the appointment. If we are ever going to get out of this division then TS needs to be working harder than he is at the moment. Look at the teams that are going up from L1 this season. What do they have in common?
TS cannot make a success of this unless he's outworking his competition.
Garner would have been fine if he had been backed, but I prefer Holden as I feel he gets more out of players and is more decisive.
It will be interesting to see who he lets go, and even more interesting who stays.
Sess and Hector for example. If he keeps one of them I will be impressed.
I think he did enough to earn at least one full season in charge.
& Coming out with things that not even real like us winning 10 -0 & going down is just silly
But the fact we drew against a team that we should be beating is fact no I am not happy with our performance & the way we finished the season are you ?
But like I have already said I would love for him to prove me wrong but personally I just don't see it
I said that I thought points per game and league position in relation to where we were when he took over shows how he's done overall. (Whether you think that's good or bad is upto you)
Then you emphasised your point by saying - "Last game of the season shows exactly what his achieved & where his got us to which IMO not winning that game isn't good enough to show his the manager to take us forward & shows exactly how his done overall"
????
yesterday wasn't good enough fact
I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with it.