Sorry I just don't see how getting a draw against Cheltenham even with the squad he has to choose from is a sign of a good manager
Where do you think this squad would finish over a full season with a good manager?
This team has shown in some games that with the right manager in charge we could have made the playoffs but to many games we just never turned up our defense has & still let us down to many times no improvement in that department at all That's down to not having the right man in charge
So you think the defence is play off standard as is the whole team & Holden is the problem?
I am saying IMO Holden is not good enough & he will be out the door with the rest of them guaranteed mark my words
If that's what you think, fair enough.
Pretty sure though, that what some were taking issue with was your logic that you can tell exactly what Holden has achieved and how far he has taken us, going by just the last game of the season.
The question is, could any manager have taken us above 10th place this season from when he took over… No.
He got us as high as was realistically acheivable based on where we were when he took over and the points totals of the teams above us.
That means he’s done a good job regardless of whether you like him as a person. He seems to be a really decent bloke on top of that. Which is a bonus. I hope he can push us on next season and not repeat the succession of bad results at home to crap, tinpot teams from the North West who bring less supporters than players.
The only time our defence was secure in recent seasons was about 7 games under Bowyer when we played like a Tony Pulis side and were winning 1-0 and keeping clean sheets. Big *Ryan Inniss was CB and we concentrated on defence and hardly created any chances ourselves. From memory I'm sure it was a case of the opposition missing chances and not just brilliant defending.
Bowyer was a tinker man and didn't just have a plan A but a whole A To Z. To think the manager that got us to pass like Man city in the first half against Forest could also play Smyth as a right wing back and Maatsen as a right sided forward which negated his pace !
When did Dean Holden say he wasn't a tactician? Is Hayes the brains of the partnership ?
It's crazy for anyone not to realize that the result wasn't paramount against Cheltenham. May wouldn't have been taken off to receive a standing ovation before dropping a division to Wrexham for his best contract of his career and not certain Deano would've made the changes he did when we went 2-1 up.
8 out of 10 for Holden so far or a B, really not sure if we can improve on 10th unless we start buying 1st choices and not 5th. If Kirk was a 1st choice we are screwed. Charlie was a sub for Burton on Sunday !
* In an attacking side Inniss is exposed and Hector and Ness would be a better option.
Edited: Maatsen as a right sided forward as a left attacking player Iain has been superb for Burnley.
DH did fine with the threadbare rabble of crocks pisstakers and kids he inherited He filtered out some of the worst underachievers The squad remained threadbare. The 'quality' of player brought in in the winter transfer window proved the emphasis was on budget cutting. None of the arrivals were sufficiently able, some of them way way short of what was required. We never had a fit or able left back. The most able fill-in, Sess, is broken. DH ended up with just the erratic Innis and leftovers for CH, plus some encouragingly able kids. Thomas was on his way out until skintgaard took a couple of quid for McConnell. At that stage Michael Hector was unproven in fitness or ability. As one returned the other became apparent. We'll do well to keep him. Injuries largely determined what manner of midfield and attacking lineup was available. DH has not yet enjoyed the luxury of a selection headache - at least not from the perspective of leaving someone out who could improve the team. The biggest headaches he's had have been from choosing which fill-in is the least bad option. DH has made a good fist of it but he's barely had the material for a sow's ear. If Claire, Payne, Henry and Inniss are in the matchday squad come September we'll be looking down the barrel of another shitty shitty season stumbling around the lower reaches of this shitty shitty division watching shitty shitty football. Contract or not, if DH takes his chances on an offer from elsewhere, he'll go with my best wishes for a job well done. Sticking around in the ruins of skintgaard's risible vanity project ain't a choice anyone would want to make.
I don't know why he gets stick for popping in to the Oak occasionally.
He knows the connection between a club & it's fans is important & is making himself visible & approachable. It's a good thing IMO
Not so much stick, for me, there’s no foundation to the relationship with us of any kind at the moment. If he continues to do okay and we are in the promotion mix properly next season, then it become more viable and makes sense. TS did it for different reasons, but ultimately, all fans (mostly) care about is success on the pitch and that success should build the connection.
The only time our defence was secure in recent seasons was about 7 games under Bowyer when we played like a Tony Pulis side and were winning 1-0 and keeping clean sheets. Big *Ryan Inniss was CB and we concentrated on defence and hardly created any chances ourselves. From memory I'm sure it was a case of the opposition missing chances and not just brilliant defending.
Bowyer was a tinker man and didn't just have a plan A but a whole A To Z. To think the manager that got us to pass like Man city in the first half against Forest could also play Smyth as a right wing back and Maatsen as a right sided forward which negated his pace !
When did Dean Holden say he wasn't a tactician? Is Hayes the brains of the partnership ?
It's crazy for anyone not to realize that the result wasn't paramount against Cheltenham. May wouldn't have been taken off to receive a standing ovation before dropping a division to Wrexham for his best contract of his career and not certain Deano would've made the changes he did when we went 2-1 up.
8 out of 10 for Holden so far or a B, really not sure if we can improve on 10th unless we start buying 1st choices and not 5th. If Kirk was a 1st choice we are screwed. Charlie was a sub for Burton on Sunday !
* In an attacking side Inniss is exposed and Hector and Ness would be a better option.
Edited: Maatsen as a right sided forward as a left attacking player Iain has been superb for Burnley.
When we kept those clean sheets we had Watson and Pratley both sitting in front of them as well.
I think it's been the midfield balance that's the biggest problem, and has been bar a few odd patches since October 2019.
There is a reason that we let in so many goals, and Dobson still makes so many tackles.
Of course we could improve on individual players at the back. It also didn't help our first choice right back missed half the season and we had no cover at left back. Since the ESI take over our midfield recruitment appears to have been, mainly, quantity over quality and the manager can sort it out. We must have had nearly 50 midfielders over the last 4 seasons.
The only time our defence was secure in recent seasons was about 7 games under Bowyer when we played like a Tony Pulis side and were winning 1-0 and keeping clean sheets. Big *Ryan Inniss was CB and we concentrated on defence and hardly created any chances ourselves. From memory I'm sure it was a case of the opposition missing chances and not just brilliant defending.
Bowyer was a tinker man and didn't just have a plan A but a whole A To Z. To think the manager that got us to pass like Man city in the first half against Forest could also play Smyth as a right wing back and Maatsen as a right sided forward which negated his pace !
When did Dean Holden say he wasn't a tactician? Is Hayes the brains of the partnership ?
It's crazy for anyone not to realize that the result wasn't paramount against Cheltenham. May wouldn't have been taken off to receive a standing ovation before dropping a division to Wrexham for his best contract of his career and not certain Deano would've made the changes he did when we went 2-1 up.
8 out of 10 for Holden so far or a B, really not sure if we can improve on 10th unless we start buying 1st choices and not 5th. If Kirk was a 1st choice we are screwed. Charlie was a sub for Burton on Sunday !
* In an attacking side Inniss is exposed and Hector and Ness would be a better option.
Edited: Maatsen as a right sided forward as a left attacking player Iain has been superb for Burnley.
When we kept those clean sheets we had Watson and Pratley both sitting in front of them as well.
I think it's been the midfield balance that's the biggest problem, and has been bar a few odd patches since October 2019.
There is a reason that we let in so many goals, and Dobson still makes so many tackles.
Of course we could improve on individual players at the back. It also didn't help our first choice right back missed half the season and we had no cover at left back. Since the ESI take over our midfield recruitment appears to have been, mainly, quantity over quality and the manager can sort it out. We must have had nearly 50 midfielders over the last 4 seasons.
This is bang on the money and surprisingly gets over looked. The defence isn't good enough but the midfield is as big a major part of the problem for the amount of goals we concede.
Corey Blackett-Taylor comes out of the stats very very well
Albie Morgan, the 10th best in one attacking pass category. Bannon is of course a "cheat code" in this division with his passing.
Our attacking strength all season has been with our wide attackers, and the way they drive into the box. So many of our goals have come that way, whereas relatively few have come from conventional crosses from wide positions or balls threaded through from midfield. It's struck me that a lot of our goals this season have come from individual moments of magic, especially from JRS.
What that does show if that we have been more competitive in the second half. Not good enough, but not the chasm to the playoff sides that the full season shows
I think I would give him a B overall. We were a real state when he came in, relegation felt like a possibility (not a probability, but still). He’s had to contend with some major failings in the quality of the playing squad that are not of his making.
I don’t think he’s the second coming of Curbs, but so far I think he’s a decent manager. I’m happy for him to be in charge at the start of next season.
Pretty much how I feel. I would say B. I continue to have questions about his ability to create a system and a team that is greater than the sum of its parts. But I also feel like he's a good communicator and man manager, and he deserves to be given a chance to do that.
He was a little lucky in that as soon as he joined, the team got back some important players, namely Miles, from injury. As we know, Miles changed the way we play and allows us to play 4-3-3.
I do think we saw some players improve second half. Miles and JRS chief amongst them, though I think some of that is just having them fit and playing in a system that suits them (which is an important job a manager does). Campbell really developed second half. Albie and Innis were both better. Thomas showed his ability, which was in large part to him being fit. He also eased Henry and Mitchell in, which is good.
As others have mentioned, I don't know that there is a lot in it between Holden and Garner. I think Garner has a higher ceiling, I think Holden has a higher floor. But by the end, it was clear that Garner didn't want to be here, and I can't say I blame him. I do wonder if one day we'll regret losing him, but I don't think it will be a Wilder situation where it's immediately clear that he is next level and we're stuck with Russell Slade.
Next season will be telling for Holden. I like him, I hope he does well.
Looks like Deano has been sacked at Stevie G assistant in Saudi
Or he's got another job. I'd take him back in a heartbeat . Although his record is nearly the same to Jones the football was much better to watch and he never got the backing that Jones has had. Nice guy as well .
Looks like Deano has been sacked at Stevie G assistant in Saudi
Or he's got another job. I'd take him back in a heartbeat . Although his record is nearly the same to Jones the football was much better to watch and he never got the backing that Jones has had. Nice guy as well .
Only ever time I've been itk, but he was definitely sacked. Think he knew it was coming over the weekend.
Holden should not have been given a job at Charlton, htf he was given a job out there is beyond me. However, good luck to him on his life changing 12 months out there. He must have a wonderful agent.
Looks like Deano has been sacked at Stevie G assistant in Saudi
Or he's got another job. I'd take him back in a heartbeat . Although his record is nearly the same to Jones the football was much better to watch and he never got the backing that Jones has had. Nice guy as well .
We were heading to league 2 under him . No thanks . I’m no fan of Jones and his brand of awful football but better than Holden he is .
We lost 47% of our games (15/32) under Dean Holden compared to 23% (7/30) under Nathan Jones so far.
The games under Holden were more entertaining because they generally had more goals. Unfortunately they often ended up going in the wrong end.
We are still working to fix the damage Holden did to our defensive shape now.
None of the defenders we have now played under Holden so not sure how we are fixing the damage?
I was being dramatic to an extent.
But it’s hardly surprising that we lost almost half of our games under Holden when the average goals per game conceded was almost one and a half (44 in 32) while he was in charge.
On track for ~70 goals conceded across a 46 game season - you’re going nowhere but backwards with that record.
Comments
Pretty sure though, that what some were taking issue with was your logic that you can tell exactly what Holden has achieved and how far he has taken us, going by just the last game of the season.
He got us as high as was realistically acheivable based on where we were when he took over and the points totals of the teams above us.
That means he’s done a good job regardless of whether you like him as a person. He seems to be a really decent bloke on top of that. Which is a bonus. I hope he can push us on next season and not repeat the succession of bad results at home to crap, tinpot teams from the North West who bring less supporters than players.
Edited: Maatsen as a right sided forward as a left attacking player Iain has been superb for Burnley.
Shame 1 year before he said that we signed a traditional target man who lacked the mobility required for such a tactic!
He filtered out some of the worst underachievers
The squad remained threadbare.
The 'quality' of player brought in in the winter transfer window proved the emphasis was on budget cutting. None of the arrivals were sufficiently able, some of them way way short of what was required.
We never had a fit or able left back. The most able fill-in, Sess, is broken.
DH ended up with just the erratic Innis and leftovers for CH, plus some encouragingly able kids. Thomas was on his way out until skintgaard took a couple of quid for McConnell.
At that stage Michael Hector was unproven in fitness or ability. As one returned the other became apparent. We'll do well to keep him.
Injuries largely determined what manner of midfield and attacking lineup was available.
DH has not yet enjoyed the luxury of a selection headache - at least not from the perspective of leaving someone out who could improve the team. The biggest headaches he's had have been from choosing which fill-in is the least bad option.
DH has made a good fist of it but he's barely had the material for a sow's ear.
If Claire, Payne, Henry and Inniss are in the matchday squad come September we'll be looking down the barrel of another shitty shitty season stumbling around the lower reaches of this shitty shitty division watching shitty shitty football.
Contract or not, if DH takes his chances on an offer from elsewhere, he'll go with my best wishes for a job well done.
Sticking around in the ruins of skintgaard's risible vanity project ain't a choice anyone would want to make.
He’s done very well overall with very limited resources.
You can’t make a silk purse from a sows ear.
He knows the connection between a club & it's fans is important & is making himself visible & approachable. It's a good thing IMO
I think it's been the midfield balance that's the biggest problem, and has been bar a few odd patches since October 2019.
There is a reason that we let in so many goals, and Dobson still makes so many tackles.
Of course we could improve on individual players at the back. It also didn't help our first choice right back missed half the season and we had no cover at left back. Since the ESI take over our midfield recruitment appears to have been, mainly, quantity over quality and the manager can sort it out. We must have had nearly 50 midfielders over the last 4 seasons.
Our attacking strength all season has been with our wide attackers, and the way they drive into the box. So many of our goals have come that way, whereas relatively few have come from conventional crosses from wide positions or balls threaded through from midfield. It's struck me that a lot of our goals this season have come from individual moments of magic, especially from JRS.
Ipswich & Plymouth autos. Sheff Wed v Peterborough & Barnsley v Bolton. Portsmouth, Derby, Charlton and Wycombe miss out.
He was a little lucky in that as soon as he joined, the team got back some important players, namely Miles, from injury. As we know, Miles changed the way we play and allows us to play 4-3-3.
I do think we saw some players improve second half. Miles and JRS chief amongst them, though I think some of that is just having them fit and playing in a system that suits them (which is an important job a manager does). Campbell really developed second half. Albie and Innis were both better. Thomas showed his ability, which was in large part to him being fit. He also eased Henry and Mitchell in, which is good.
As others have mentioned, I don't know that there is a lot in it between Holden and Garner. I think Garner has a higher ceiling, I think Holden has a higher floor. But by the end, it was clear that Garner didn't want to be here, and I can't say I blame him. I do wonder if one day we'll regret losing him, but I don't think it will be a Wilder situation where it's immediately clear that he is next level and we're stuck with Russell Slade.
Next season will be telling for Holden. I like him, I hope he does well.
Stevie G stays on but Dean carries the can for the Saudi Arabian team bad start to the season.
Different.
However, good luck to him on his life changing 12 months out there.
He must have a wonderful agent.
The games under Holden were more entertaining because they generally had more goals. Unfortunately they often ended up going in the wrong end.
We are still working to fix the damage Holden did to our defensive shape now.
But it’s hardly surprising that we lost almost half of our games under Holden when the average goals per game conceded was almost one and a half (44 in 32) while he was in charge.