I don’t think I’ve ever questioned the issue of coal factories, it is indeed a big issue here and falls into the category of must do better, but that doesn’t take away from everything else that’s being done up and down the country, solar, wind farms, hydro, massively subsidies for electric cars.
I’ve never once said China should get a free pass, or does nothing wrong, but to suggest they’re doing absolutely nothing is at best utter ignorance, at worst sinophobia.
I’m not sure I can agree and (developed) nation has more of a responsibility than another, we’re all in this together and ideally everyone would not only do everything they can internally, but we should also be supporting 3rd world and developing nations to progress in a green and ethical way.
Sadly I don’t think anywhere near enough is going to be done to prevent this reaching a massive crises, for every person willing to ditch their car and cycle, someone else will buy a 2nd car to be able to drive 7 days a week. (Many Chinese cities ban certain number plates from driving on specific days to reduce congestion and pollution, a noble use, far too easily worked around)
But it does. that is the point.
sorry. i wish the facts were different. But that is the truth.
i wasn't referring to you when i mentioned people giving them a pass - you live there - it's people here doing that all the time because politically it is so much easier for us to be the bad guys all the time - we create the demand and apparently that is so irresistible to the developing world that they cannot just say no - as has been said, this is a global issue - just because people want to throw money at you doesn't mean it stops being a moral endeavour. If China want to join the rest of the world and take responsibility for their own purely choice emissions then fair play.
So opening coal plants and not doing anything to improve in other areas would be just as bad as opening coal plants whilst investing heavily in other greener sources of energy? Seems entirely illogical to me.
What I find entirely illogical is people defending the actions of JSO in this country and suggesting it is for "the greater good" and at the same time making excuses for the biggest contributer to global warming on the planet. (Not saying that's you by the way but I've seen a lot of it on here)
Not seen many giving wholehearted support for their actions on here tbf. Just because I understand why they feel moved to act, that doesn't mean I agree with the tactics, even though they are successful in provoking people to discuss, not just their actions, but climate change in general. Do I think they'll get this Government to change direction? No. Big money and vested interests are what motivates them, so I think they will fail in that objective having hacked off many in the process.
Fair enough.
I feel like I'm fighting a bit of a losing battle here to be honest so I'm going to leave it on that note.
Wish the JSO boys and girls would protest outside a Travellers site who are burning off the pvc from cable, stripping cars and vans and letting the oil, diesel, go down the drains. One wonders what sort of reception they would get?
Bottom line is we’re not doing enough collectively worldwide to reverse what we’re experiencing right now and for what’s coming down the tracks. We can point fingers at each other but that doesn’t alter the hard facts. Humans are as clever as you can possibly imagine but equally as stupid.
I don’t think I’ve ever questioned the issue of coal factories, it is indeed a big issue here and falls into the category of must do better, but that doesn’t take away from everything else that’s being done up and down the country, solar, wind farms, hydro, massively subsidies for electric cars.
I’ve never once said China should get a free pass, or does nothing wrong, but to suggest they’re doing absolutely nothing is at best utter ignorance, at worst sinophobia.
I’m not sure I can agree and (developed) nation has more of a responsibility than another, we’re all in this together and ideally everyone would not only do everything they can internally, but we should also be supporting 3rd world and developing nations to progress in a green and ethical way.
Sadly I don’t think anywhere near enough is going to be done to prevent this reaching a massive crises, for every person willing to ditch their car and cycle, someone else will buy a 2nd car to be able to drive 7 days a week. (Many Chinese cities ban certain number plates from driving on specific days to reduce congestion and pollution, a noble use, far too easily worked around)
But it does. that is the point.
sorry. i wish the facts were different. But that is the truth.
i wasn't referring to you when i mentioned people giving them a pass - you live there - it's people here doing that all the time because politically it is so much easier for us to be the bad guys all the time - we create the demand and apparently that is so irresistible to the developing world that they cannot just say no - as has been said, this is a global issue - just because people want to throw money at you doesn't mean it stops being a moral endeavour. If China want to join the rest of the world and take responsibility for their own purely choice emissions then fair play.
So opening coal plants and not doing anything to improve in other areas would be just as bad as opening coal plants whilst investing heavily in other greener sources of energy? Seems entirely illogical to me.
What I find entirely illogical is people defending the actions of JSO in this country and suggesting it is for "the greater good" and at the same time making excuses for the biggest contributer to global warming on the planet. (Not saying that's you by the way but I've seen a lot of it on here)
Not seen many giving wholehearted support for their actions on here tbf. Just because I understand why they feel moved to act, that doesn't mean I agree with the tactics, even though they are successful in provoking people to discuss, not just their actions, but climate change in general. Do I think they'll get this Government to change direction? No. Big money and vested interests are what motivates them, so I think they will fail in that objective having hacked off many in the process.
Fair enough.
I feel like I'm fighting a bit of a losing battle here to be honest so I'm going to leave it on that note.
Lightweight 🤣 You're not an HoC thread exile by any chance are you? Arguments can rage for years on there.
If the last big sporting event held in Liverpool is anything to go by, this thread might get lively again after the Open golf in a week or so. See you then 😉
I wonder how many will protest by not buying season tickets when Duchatelet applies for a change of use to turn the Valley into a Lido? Still, Roderick won't get his money back, Roland long gone by then 🤣
I've seen 2050 quoted as when residents of some London Boroughs might be well advised to purchase some waders if sea levels carry on rising at the rate they have been.
Stu, I take your point, and concede to your local knowledge, but this is becoming a little close to a China love-in .
You mentioned protests against new plants being built. The difference between those here and over there is that they are protesting out of personal concern (not that I blame them) as their communities will become even more polluted. They are not doing so out of environmental principle against the policy of their Government, because if they did it with that angle, they would be arrested and imprisoned. There is a reason why such protest groups do not tend to exist in China - consider the pro-democracy movement as an illustrative example.
The point made that we have already burned through huge quantities of fossil fuel reserves to raise our standards of living to where they are now, is a valid one, but to say that that means we should allow all non-developed countries to go for it is antithetical to actually achieving anything in the fight against climate change, which is supposed to be the point. I do, however, think that if we are going to ask e.g the South Americans to kindly not deforest the Amazon (like we effectively did with our own archipelago), then we should provide them with alternative income streams for not doing so. However, coal, oil and gas are a whole different ball game.
Solar and wind farms, great. However, we either want to alleviate rising global temperatures, or we don't. If China continues to build coal fired power plants and huge amounts of airports etc. then the rest of us are effectively pissing in the wind with our efforts given that the UK produces 1% of global carbon emissions compared to China's 29%.
The point is made also (not by you, granted), that we are being mean to the Chinese and that they are just cuddly really, kumbaya etc. Whilst no reflection on the Chinese as a whole, this woolly thinking sounds to me like some folk need to wake up and smell the coffee as far as the Chinese government is concerned. Theirs is a vile regime with little or no regard to human life and no matter how shite our administration may be, to seriously equate the two would be imbecilic. Many people appear not to have noticed that we are effectively in a new Cold War, which will determine the overall direction of our species. I make no bones about the fact that I want the side which practices inhuman authoritarian communism to lose, on the grounds of morality, if nothing else, but each to their own, I suppose.
Also interesting to note that my point regarding air travel has been conveniently overlooked, I can't think why!
Oh, and I believe a point about per capita emissions was made and I assumed it was correct (though no argument when it comes to the question as to whether we actually want to address the problem or not).
Highest in the world - Qatar: 37.29 UK carbon emission per capita: 5.55 China carbon emission per capita: 7.38
So, each Chinese citizen is more polluting than each UK one, despite then continuing to industrialise; this means that this disparity will only increase.
For those who are worried about being inconvenienced by Just Stop Oil protesters should be aware that this is nothing compared to what is likely for the UK in the coming years.
The UK and Switzerland will be the worst affected globally by a relative increase in "uncomfortably hot days" on the way, a vast new study has warned.
I’d probably take uncomfortably hot days. I genuinely think large parts of the planet will become uninhabitable and those that don’t starve to death will migrate elsewhere. We’ll see sea levels rise and sea temperatures will increase. Coastal areas will be lost to the sea. Large areas of forests will burn and cities will be lost to all of the above. Quite when is the unknown at the moment but we’ll see some catastrophic climate events within 50 years. Of that I’m certain. That’s what’s coming our way. What we’re all doing so far isn’t worth a toss.
For those who are worried about being inconvenienced by Just Stop Oil protesters should be aware that this is nothing compared to what is likely for the UK in the coming years.
The UK and Switzerland will be the worst affected globally by a relative increase in "uncomfortably hot days" on the way, a vast new study has warned.
Well the audience weren't appreciative of their impromptu performance at the First Night of the Proms earlier. I'm sure they paid Glyndebourne a visit too in the past, but I don't think in either case they ended up being thanked for the music.
Well the audience weren't appreciative of their impromptu performance at the First Night of the Proms earlier. I'm sure they paid Glyndebourne a visit too in the past, but I don't think in either case they ended up being thanked for the music.
And they aren't going to target a potentially more receptive audience unless they start slow walking in front of their own protests.
Having just watched the footage on line, I did however see a fair few of the audience clapping the pricks.
Well the audience weren't appreciative of their impromptu performance at the First Night of the Proms earlier. I'm sure they paid Glyndebourne a visit too in the past, but I don't think in either case they ended up being thanked for the music.
And they aren't going to target a potentially more receptive audience unless they start slow walking in front of their own protests.
Having just watched the footage on line, I did however see a fair few of the audience clapping the pricks.
Trying to give as many different groupings in society as possible a 'wake up call' in the hope that they act to challenge the Government over its policy.
Big protest marches focus attention and grab headlines for a day, but their tactics are to subject us to a constant drip feed of reporting fresh disruption. We're also being subjected to the more damaging escalating effects of global warming though, and that's not so easy to close down.
It's hard to argue that their actions aren't increasing awareness of them and their cause, but what it actually achieves save for causing annoyance is less obvious as the Government would rather silence them than heed their advice.
JSO also disrupted the start of Last Leg on channel 4 last night. Due to the nature of the show and previous comedy sketches it was not clear at first if this was a protest or sketch but the audience were assured that it was not a sketch. The reaction of Josh Widdecombe supported that it was not pre planned.
This article is a very good read and explains why it is so difficult to get people to realise the severity of the situation the world is facing, when the fossil fuel industries have spent billions on winning over the public.
For those who are worried about being inconvenienced by Just Stop Oil protesters should be aware that this is nothing compared to what is likely for the UK in the coming years.
The UK and Switzerland will be the worst affected globally by a relative increase in "uncomfortably hot days" on the way, a vast new study has warned.
This article is a very good read and explains why it is so difficult to get people to realise the severity of the situation the world is facing, when the fossil fuel industries have spent billions on winning over the public.
In one state in America, legislation was passed to make it illegal for anyone to buy solar panels unless they came from a big fossil fuel company. Nothing suspicious about influence of vested interests calling the shots there then? Financial incentives were withdrawn by statute in Florida in 2022, further dissuading people from converting to solar.
And they call it the land of the free, unless it comes to freedom of choice for the eco zealot consumer that is. It's hard to tell the truth when lining your own pockets depends on persuading others that the truth ain't so.
I saw a picture of a German lorry driver almost run a sitting protest over. Utterly needless. I’m sure he had somewhere to go and I know haulage is part of point in time supply chain etc, but you can’t be running someone over and risking causing serious injury just because it aggravates you.
JSO have invited a lot of criticism onto themselves with their drastic action, but when I see videos of people losing the plot with them, I think it’s a pretty pathetic response. You could take that rationale into anything that winds you up/you don’t agree with, why are JSO protestors fair game for physical violence
I saw a picture of a German lorry driver almost run a sitting protest over. Utterly needless. I’m sure he had somewhere to go and I know haulage is part of point in time supply chain etc, but you can’t be running someone over and risking causing serious injury just because it aggravates you.
JSO have invited a lot of criticism onto themselves with their drastic action, but when I see videos of people losing the plot with them, I think it’s a pretty pathetic response. You could take that rationale into anything that winds you up/you don’t agree with, why are JSO protestors fair game for physical violence
It depends on your circumstances. If I was taking a family member to hospital jn an emergency I'm sure I'd not react in a polite manner.
I saw a picture of a German lorry driver almost run a sitting protest over. Utterly needless. I’m sure he had somewhere to go and I know haulage is part of point in time supply chain etc, but you can’t be running someone over and risking causing serious injury just because it aggravates you.
JSO have invited a lot of criticism onto themselves with their drastic action, but when I see videos of people losing the plot with them, I think it’s a pretty pathetic response. You could take that rationale into anything that winds you up/you don’t agree with, why are JSO protestors fair game for physical violence
We've reached such a level of divide in society that videos of big blokes climbing out of vans and dragging women across roads are applauded online.
I don't know what the solution is around the protests, but it's sad to see how manipulated into hatred we've all been by the media. Not just with JSO either, but pretty much every thing.
I saw a picture of a German lorry driver almost run a sitting protest over. Utterly needless. I’m sure he had somewhere to go and I know haulage is part of point in time supply chain etc, but you can’t be running someone over and risking causing serious injury just because it aggravates you.
JSO have invited a lot of criticism onto themselves with their drastic action, but when I see videos of people losing the plot with them, I think it’s a pretty pathetic response. You could take that rationale into anything that winds you up/you don’t agree with, why are JSO protestors fair game for physical violence
It depends on your circumstances. If I was taking a family member to hospital jn an emergency I'm sure I'd not react in a polite manner.
I understand. I’m sure there’s been examples of that throughout their disruption- I think it’s reaching the point where as aggravating as it is, people have just decided they can be physically have a go, because it’s justified in their opinion. I just don’t think these people, however much of a nuisance they are, deserve to be almost run over by a lorry
I saw a picture of a German lorry driver almost run a sitting protest over. Utterly needless. I’m sure he had somewhere to go and I know haulage is part of point in time supply chain etc, but you can’t be running someone over and risking causing serious injury just because it aggravates you.
JSO have invited a lot of criticism onto themselves with their drastic action, but when I see videos of people losing the plot with them, I think it’s a pretty pathetic response. You could take that rationale into anything that winds you up/you don’t agree with, why are JSO protestors fair game for physical violence
It depends on your circumstances. If I was taking a family member to hospital jn an emergency I'm sure I'd not react in a polite manner.
I understand. I’m sure there’s been examples of that throughout their disruption- I think it’s reaching the point where as aggravating as it is, people have just decided they can be physically have a go, because it’s justified in their opinion. I just don’t think these people, however much of a nuisance they are, deserve to be almost run over by a lorry
Of course they don't deserve to be run over by a lorry. But if in an emergency situation they refuse to move I have no problem with people dragging them off the road.
Their actions and behaviours when protesting are unfortunately a provocation.
That doesn't make some responses right, but it does make them understandable.
I have no issue with them being carefully removed / dragged / pushed out of the way. It seems like a reasonable response to allow law abiding citizens to go about their lawful business.
I saw a picture of a German lorry driver almost run a sitting protest over. Utterly needless. I’m sure he had somewhere to go and I know haulage is part of point in time supply chain etc, but you can’t be running someone over and risking causing serious injury just because it aggravates you.
JSO have invited a lot of criticism onto themselves with their drastic action, but when I see videos of people losing the plot with them, I think it’s a pretty pathetic response. You could take that rationale into anything that winds you up/you don’t agree with, why are JSO protestors fair game for physical violence
It depends on your circumstances. If I was taking a family member to hospital jn an emergency I'm sure I'd not react in a polite manner.
I understand. I’m sure there’s been examples of that throughout their disruption- I think it’s reaching the point where as aggravating as it is, people have just decided they can be physically have a go, because it’s justified in their opinion. I just don’t think these people, however much of a nuisance they are, deserve to be almost run over by a lorry
Of course they don't deserve to be run over by a lorry. But if in an emergency situation they refuse to move I have no problem with people dragging them off the road.
They move for blue lights and sirens. Doesn't stop people assaulting them in the street sadly.
I saw a picture of a German lorry driver almost run a sitting protest over. Utterly needless. I’m sure he had somewhere to go and I know haulage is part of point in time supply chain etc, but you can’t be running someone over and risking causing serious injury just because it aggravates you.
JSO have invited a lot of criticism onto themselves with their drastic action, but when I see videos of people losing the plot with them, I think it’s a pretty pathetic response. You could take that rationale into anything that winds you up/you don’t agree with, why are JSO protestors fair game for physical violence
Maybe just maybe stopping your average Joe from going about their day to day business and those trying to put food on the table for their families will piss said average Joe off enough to get a reaction all while the people in charge carry on flying around on private jets and driving in gas guzzling cars.
Comments
I feel like I'm fighting a bit of a losing battle here to be honest so I'm going to leave it on that note.
One wonders what sort of reception they would get?
If the last big sporting event held in Liverpool is anything to go by, this thread might get lively again after the Open golf in a week or so. See you then 😉
I've seen 2050 quoted as when residents of some London Boroughs might be well advised to purchase some waders if sea levels carry on rising at the rate they have been.
You mentioned protests against new plants being built. The difference between those here and over there is that they are protesting out of personal concern (not that I blame them) as their communities will become even more polluted. They are not doing so out of environmental principle against the policy of their Government, because if they did it with that angle, they would be arrested and imprisoned. There is a reason why such protest groups do not tend to exist in China - consider the pro-democracy movement as an illustrative example.
The point made that we have already burned through huge quantities of fossil fuel reserves to raise our standards of living to where they are now, is a valid one, but to say that that means we should allow all non-developed countries to go for it is antithetical to actually achieving anything in the fight against climate change, which is supposed to be the point. I do, however, think that if we are going to ask e.g the South Americans to kindly not deforest the Amazon (like we effectively did with our own archipelago), then we should provide them with alternative income streams for not doing so. However, coal, oil and gas are a whole different ball game.
Solar and wind farms, great. However, we either want to alleviate rising global temperatures, or we don't. If China continues to build coal fired power plants and huge amounts of airports etc. then the rest of us are effectively pissing in the wind with our efforts given that the UK produces 1% of global carbon emissions compared to China's 29%.
The point is made also (not by you, granted), that we are being mean to the Chinese and that they are just cuddly really, kumbaya etc. Whilst no reflection on the Chinese as a whole, this woolly thinking sounds to me like some folk need to wake up and smell the coffee as far as the Chinese government is concerned. Theirs is a vile regime with little or no regard to human life and no matter how shite our administration may be, to seriously equate the two would be imbecilic. Many people appear not to have noticed that we are effectively in a new Cold War, which will determine the overall direction of our species. I make no bones about the fact that I want the side which practices inhuman authoritarian communism to lose, on the grounds of morality, if nothing else, but each to their own, I suppose.
Also interesting to note that my point regarding air travel has been conveniently overlooked, I can't think why!
According to data from this site https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-by-country/
Sources
Highest in the world - Qatar: 37.29
UK carbon emission per capita: 5.55
China carbon emission per capita: 7.38
So, each Chinese citizen is more polluting than each UK one, despite then continuing to industrialise; this means that this disparity will only increase.
So China does need to pull its finger out, Stu.
The UK and Switzerland will be the worst affected globally by a relative increase in "uncomfortably hot days" on the way, a vast new study has warned.
https://news.sky.com/story/uk-and-switzerland-to-suffer-highest-increase-in-uncomfortably-hot-days-globally-study-finds-12920290
https://news.sky.com/story/europe-heatwave-latest-continent-could-have-hottest-day-ever-sweltering-temperatures-to-last-two-weeks-12920226
Having just watched the footage on line, I did however see a fair few of the audience clapping the pricks.
Big protest marches focus attention and grab headlines for a day, but their tactics are to subject us to a constant drip feed of reporting fresh disruption. We're also being subjected to the more damaging escalating effects of global warming though, and that's not so easy to close down.
It's hard to argue that their actions aren't increasing awareness of them and their cause, but what it actually achieves save for causing annoyance is less obvious as the Government would rather silence them than heed their advice.
Will it be a banner at the next sporting event? Bit fishy
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul/14/big-oil-climate-crisis-fossil-fuel-public
And they call it the land of the free, unless it comes to freedom of choice for the eco zealot consumer that is. It's hard to tell the truth when lining your own pockets depends on persuading others that the truth ain't so.
If I was taking a family member to hospital jn an emergency I'm sure I'd not react in a polite manner.
I don't know what the solution is around the protests, but it's sad to see how manipulated into hatred we've all been by the media. Not just with JSO either, but pretty much every thing.
But if in an emergency situation they refuse to move I have no problem with people dragging them off the road.
That doesn't make some responses right, but it does make them understandable.
I have no issue with them being carefully removed / dragged / pushed out of the way. It seems like a reasonable response to allow law abiding citizens to go about their lawful business.
Just sayin'