Across the Premier League, Championship and League One yesterday, four teams (6.66%) played in 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 formations.
- Everton (4-4-1-1) lost 1-2 at home to Luton. They’ve lost 5 out of 7 games so far this season.
- Cheltenham (4-4-2) lost 2-0 at Lincoln. They haven’t scored all season and are rock bottom of the league.
- Reading (4-4-2) and Burton (4-4-2) played out a nil nil draw against each other. Burton are 20th in the league, Reading are 21st.
There’s a reason teams at our level don’t play it anymore… it doesn’t win games of football.
Our best run of the season last year came playing 4-4-2. Also Norwich have been playing it most of the season and doing well, Villa have been playing it too and doing well, and beat Brighton who played it yesterday too.
It would probably mean sacrificing control of the game and playing more direct, which I think would suit us. But that’s not appletons style so it won’t happen.
We need to play 3-4-1-2, that’s what this squad was built for. It is really strange that we recruited a manager to play a different system to Holden. Appleton needs to be pragmatic and get the best out of the squad he has, not trying to fit the squad into how he plays
Isted Jones Hector Thomas Watson Watson Dobson CBT C.Campbell (Fraser when fit) Leaburn May
We showed on the opening day that if CBT has Thomas behind him we can almost convert to a back 4 and mean that he won’t have to defend much. That is still our best performance of the season but it seems Holden and now Appleton don’t realise this
I might be wrong because I only went off a scan of formations in my scores app but I have both Aston Villa and Brighton playing 4-2-3-1 yesterday. Moussa Diaby and Danny Welbeck setting up as central attacking midfielders. Norwich similarly in past weeks with Ashley Barnes playing off of Adam Idah.
I think there is a wider conversation to be had about the fluidity of formations and how ultimately they don’t really matter a great deal in the attacking phase as ideally when you’re attacking, 4-3-3 easily becomes a 4-2-3-1 which becomes a 4-4-1-1 which becomes a 4-4-2 which becomes a 4-3-3 etc etc. but I’ve tried approaching that topic before and got shut down so here we are.
The apps often have these things wrong. And it is often that teams have different shapes in and out of possession or things are more fluid as you say. Villa is a bit of hybrid but Diaby is playing more as a striker than he is anything else, Emery has often favoured 4-4-2 at both Villa and Villarreal, especially when they don’t have the ball. This screenshot below looks very 4-4-2 vs 4-4-2 but Villa were also 3-4-1-2 at times
I tend to look at average positions, rather than what the apps have said the formation is. If you look at Norwich games when Barnes was fit, he was playing alongside Idah, and Diaby is often alongside Watkins for Villa.
I think the learnings from this is probably you can’t play an old fashioned 4-4-2 but you can still play it with maybe a hybrid element. For us I think that could be playing the right winger as a bit of a hybrid CM/RM maybe something that Camara, C. Campbell or Anderson could do, and then you have Tenai Watson bombing on and making it a 3-5-2 going forward. With Thomas at LCB/LB it should be quite easy for us to set up in this way
Or alternatively you could have Edun or Assimwe (probably better than Watson at this type of role) inverting into midfield so that we still have 3 in there, and again end up with a 3-5-2 shape when we have the ball and then 4-4-2 (or 4-4-1-1) without. This one is probably less good as an option and maybe a bit complex for league 1
I think there's little value in comparing formations against Premier League teams because it's just such a different level of tactical ability. If you look at Villa's shape there out of possession their centre mids are pushed right up onto Brighton's two and their wide men are far deeper, monitoring runs from the full backs as they know the likes of Estupinan are a big part of Brighton's attacking threat. Villa had John McGinn, a centre mid essentially, on the right and had Zaniolo on the left who is a winger. He was poor though and got replaced by Jacob Ramsey, another narrow wide man/centre mid who was much better in that role. I just don't see that working for us out of possession, neither Dobson nor Fraser have the positional discipline to press consistently and CBT and Campbell aren't the narrow, tactically disciplined wide players required. Our press isn't triggered in certain phases and consistent like a lot of these teams. I don't think our players can work multiple shapes in and out of possession so we're on a different planet to a lot of these Prem teams. I don't love 352 but I think it's probably a bit of a shame that it's been chucked in the bin after Holden was forced to set up without a proper pair of wingbacks and fit strikers as it's one of the ways we could get Leaburn and May playing close to each other
Yeah I do agree with you. Was more just to say that teams do still play 4-4-2 in the modern game. I’m sure Jackson’s Wimbledon are a better example of how that might work at this level and they seem to be doing very well at it.
3-5-2 has to be the way forward but I can’t see Appleton changing his ways. I think he’s going to be another Karl Robinson where we set up to his system rather than him picking the best system for the available players
The formation is probably the easiest stick to beat the manager with though, hence why it's a regular topic of conversation.
If we had played 442 or 352 or 235 we would have won that is a great Internet punditry line because you can never be proved wrong.
If we go 352 and ever lose a game it will because "CBT isn't a wing back" OR you have got to play CBT and if you don't you deserve the sack.
It's the same when a fan favourite isn't picked, if Fraser doesn't start the next two games and we don't get 6 points it will be the reason.
The manager can't win because the fans always comment post match with hindsight.
How many people questioned the selection BEFORE the game? After it won last week.
Its not even like the same formation will work the same way every time. When you come up against things like a narrower pitch than normal for instance then yes it can be quite hard to account for exactly how that's going to affect things - and Appleton is still working on drilling the squad into his own style and approach, trying to work on multiple tactical set ups as well would be difficult at best, counter productive at worst.
If you can take any positives out of it then I for one am glad that Appleton has so far had enough about him to recognise when things aren't working and change it generally for the better - would it be better if we got it right first time? Of course it would. Is he going to keep getting away with slow/poor starts salvaged by tweaking it? Probably not.
But all in all unbeaten in 4 games has to be seen as a strong start even if you do think the results have been flattering compared to performance.
There's a strong smell of delusional bs wafting around recently. I suspect the reinvention of Charlton as an imaginary sleeping giant whom we can reasonably expect to be crushing other teams is more about minimising the improvement under MA.
I’m very surprised by the reaction here and elsewhere to the game yesterday. You don’t win every game in this league - even ones against teams on poor runs. We’re not Man City - both sides will have spells in games where they’re on top. It’s important not to concede and hope your quality gives you some decent chances. That’s it - that’s the league.
Unbeaten in four is not be taken for granted. Win the next two and that looks a good point.
Unbeaten in 4 which includes 2 draws = 8 points.
Much prefer lost 1 in 4 where the other 3 are all wins = 9 points.
It's not not losing which is the problem, its not winning.
And if we are going by the mantra of "win your home games & draw your aways" then we'd better win the next 2.......or will people still be happy with the "but we are still unbeaten" mantra when we drop more points over the next 6 days.
Rough weekend so just catching up with the post match.
We were shite, Shrewsbury were shite, pure league one shiteness. Shrewsbury didn't hold the mighty Charlton Athletic to a 0-0 draw because they may have made their pitch slightly smaller, although it's nice to see a different excuse other than blaming the constant flow of anti Charlton refs we get. I get it, I love Charlton as much as the next one of you but man, some people really view things through some very thick, heavily rose tinted glasses. Even during the last 3 games we still showed some of our ongoing problems with set pieces and defensive lapses, the two wins didn't erase those immediately. Improved performances yes, but far from challenging still. Saturday just backed that up.
Players, Isted gets the special mention, did well to keep us in it at times whilst also looking a bit dodgy still, but improving, a player who definitely needs a run of games.to get in to form.
Tactics, given our squad we can be a more flexible in our formations and approach to away games, would say we have clear home and away selections, CBT and Campbell stand out as the obvious two who probably feature better/ more effective at home than away.
Anyway, nice not to lose when looking utter gash, even with the 5 a side pitch Shrewsbury forced us to play on. Bastards.
I’m very surprised by the reaction here and elsewhere to the game yesterday. You don’t win every game in this league - even ones against teams on poor runs. We’re not Man City - both sides will have spells in games where they’re on top. It’s important not to concede and hope your quality gives you some decent chances. That’s it - that’s the league.
Unbeaten in four is not be taken for granted. Win the next two and that looks a good point.
Unbeaten in 4 which includes 2 draws = 8 points.
Much prefer lost 1 in 4 where the other 3 are all wins = 9 points.
It's not not losing which is the problem, its not winning.
And if we are going by the mantra of "win your home games & draw your aways" then we'd better win the next 2.......or will people still be happy with the "but we are still unbeaten" mantra when we drop more points over the next 6 days.
But we ARE winning games. Literally half of the games since Appleton took over, we've won. You're literally putting the single most negative possible slant on things... surprisingly.
Sometimes playing the team on a poor run is harder in all honesty usually until you score, then their heads drop. What I think was disapointing was that we were much improved in the second half and pathetic in the first. I think that is the right word. It is disapointing because if we are looking for clues we can challenge, we are not finding many. Of course we will finish in the top half and not get relegated but that learning doesn't fill my heart with joy.
Appleton's comments were obvious and right. Thinking about it, when I managed, I used to tell the team to keep a tally of their personal battles and ensure they won more than they lost. Of course some people haven't got it in them, but in that first half we lost most of them. That isn't about skill, it is about strength and desire. Aneke came on and the tide turned. I suppose with a young player like Campbell you can teach that. I noticed he did win one 50/50 so it showed he had it in him. Something to work on maybe.
I’m very surprised by the reaction here and elsewhere to the game yesterday. You don’t win every game in this league - even ones against teams on poor runs. We’re not Man City - both sides will have spells in games where they’re on top. It’s important not to concede and hope your quality gives you some decent chances. That’s it - that’s the league.
Unbeaten in four is not be taken for granted. Win the next two and that looks a good point.
Unbeaten in 4 which includes 2 draws = 8 points.
Much prefer lost 1 in 4 where the other 3 are all wins = 9 points.
It's not not losing which is the problem, its not winning.
And if we are going by the mantra of "win your home games & draw your aways" then we'd better win the next 2.......or will people still be happy with the "but we are still unbeaten" mantra when we drop more points over the next 6 days.
But we ARE winning games. Literally half of the games since Appleton took over, we've won. You're literally putting the single most negative possible slant on things... surprisingly.
That isn't correct as the Fleetwood game was before he took over. It is true that we are not losing games.
Not sure how it ended nil nil, both teams could
have won it.
Another frustrating first half similar to
Stevenage away a couple of weeks back but this time Isted made some good saves
and kept us in it.
Better second half and we had some chances our
selves and their keeper made some good saves, Chucks should have scored with
his header and was frustrated with himself, after the game could see he was annoyed
with himself. Unlike Stevenage though I felt they was the more likely to score
in the last 5-10 minutes.
As others have said, Isted best game for us so
hopefully a real confidence boost for him and he can push on. Jones as well I
thought was brilliant, I think he has been very impressive all season and thought
Hector looked a bit more like the Hector from last season. Dobson was Dobson
and played well, I am not sure If I am only just seeing it but seems to me
Dobson has changed his game and is a lot more involved this season and driving
us on, reminding me of Scott Parker sometimes (not the standard).
Miles, Tupac and CBT all looked of to me which
did not help our attacking play so nice we have the option of Chucks and Tedic
to change it up as well as Fraser coming back.
Shrewsbury if not getting the train is a bit of
a rubbish away day not helped by the rain literally pissing in my chips pre
match at the fan zone. Also the Shrewsbury annoucer has got to be the most boring announcer
in the league, Though it was Farnell’s barrister at one point.
Still upbeaten since DH has gone. Win the next 2 home games and that is a good point on the road.
We have sacked the manager who started the season, and appointed a new one.
The new manager has a 0% lose rate.
The new manager has in my opinion dropped four points at Stevenage and Shrewsbury. Had we won both of those games by my calculation we would be four points behind my target instead of the current eight. We now have to beat Exeter and Blackpool to simply stand still and remain eight points behind (my) target. I can see some progress in players being available after injury, so in that respect Appleton has fallen into a pot of jam, but if Holden was sacked in order to make results better (some say this new Methven wrangled regime should be judged on results) then four points dropped at Stevenage and Shrewsbury are not improvements, had we won both of those games a case can be made that things have got better.
We have sacked the manager who started the season, and appointed a new one.
The new manager has a 0% lose rate.
The new manager has in my opinion dropped four points at Stevenage and Shrewsbury. Had we won both of those games by my calculation we would be four points behind my target instead of the current eight. We now have to beat Exeter and Blackpool to simply stand still and remain eight points behind (my) target. I can see some progress in players being available after injury, so in that respect Appleton has fallen into a pot of jam, but if Holden was sacked in order to make results better (some say this new Methven wrangled regime should be judged on results) then four points dropped at Stevenage and Shrewsbury are not improvements, had we won both of those games a case can be made that things have got better.
So your beholding Appleton accountable for the points we dropped under Holden?
Win at home draw away is your target and Appleton has a 100% success rate and your still not happy?
We have sacked the manager who started the season, and appointed a new one.
The new manager has a 0% lose rate.
The new manager has in my opinion dropped four points at Stevenage and Shrewsbury. Had we won both of those games by my calculation we would be four points behind my target instead of the current eight. We now have to beat Exeter and Blackpool to simply stand still and remain eight points behind (my) target. I can see some progress in players being available after injury, so in that respect Appleton has fallen into a pot of jam, but if Holden was sacked in order to make results better (some say this new Methven wrangled regime should be judged on results) then four points dropped at Stevenage and Shrewsbury are not improvements, had we won both of those games a case can be made that things have got better.
So your beholding Appleton accountable for the points we dropped under Holden?
Win at home draw away is your target and Appleton has a 100% success rate and your still not happy?
It's called doubling down and has nothing to do with rationality.
We have sacked the manager who started the season, and appointed a new one.
The new manager has a 0% lose rate.
The new manager has in my opinion dropped four points at Stevenage and Shrewsbury. Had we won both of those games by my calculation we would be four points behind my target instead of the current eight. We now have to beat Exeter and Blackpool to simply stand still and remain eight points behind (my) target. I can see some progress in players being available after injury, so in that respect Appleton has fallen into a pot of jam, but if Holden was sacked in order to make results better (some say this new Methven wrangled regime should be judged on results) then four points dropped at Stevenage and Shrewsbury are not improvements, had we won both of those games a case can be made that things have got better.
So your beholding Appleton accountable for the points we dropped under Holden?
Win at home draw away is your target and Appleton has a 100% success rate and your still not happy?
You’re right I am not happy. Appleton is not accountable for the points dropped under Holden, Holden and the regime are. So if they recognised that and subsequently sacked Holden my expectation is an improvement. The improvement has been players coming back from injury, not the results, they have merely marked time, and if we don’t win the next two games it won’t even be marking time anymore. I want automatic promotion this season, doesn’t every fan? I am not interested in any Methven wrangled realism, or excuses. What is even the point of being involved in the sport if you don’t aspire to success?
We have sacked the manager who started the season, and appointed a new one.
The new manager has a 0% lose rate.
The new manager has in my opinion dropped four points at Stevenage and Shrewsbury. Had we won both of those games by my calculation we would be four points behind my target instead of the current eight. We now have to beat Exeter and Blackpool to simply stand still and remain eight points behind (my) target. I can see some progress in players being available after injury, so in that respect Appleton has fallen into a pot of jam, but if Holden was sacked in order to make results better (some say this new Methven wrangled regime should be judged on results) then four points dropped at Stevenage and Shrewsbury are not improvements, had we won both of those games a case can be made that things have got better.
So your beholding Appleton accountable for the points we dropped under Holden?
Win at home draw away is your target and Appleton has a 100% success rate and your still not happy?
You’re right I am not happy. Appleton is not accountable for the points dropped under Holden, Holden and the regime are. So if they recognised that and subsequently sacked Holden my expectation is an improvement. The improvement has been players coming back from injury, not the results, they have merely marked time, and if we don’t win the next two games it won’t even be marking time anymore. I want automatic promotion this season, doesn’t every fan? I am not interested in any Methven wrangled realism, or excuses. What is even the point of being involved in the sport if you don’t aspire to success?
If hypothetically you were offered play offs now would you take it?
We have sacked the manager who started the season, and appointed a new one.
The new manager has a 0% lose rate.
The new manager has in my opinion dropped four points at Stevenage and Shrewsbury. Had we won both of those games by my calculation we would be four points behind my target instead of the current eight. We now have to beat Exeter and Blackpool to simply stand still and remain eight points behind (my) target. I can see some progress in players being available after injury, so in that respect Appleton has fallen into a pot of jam, but if Holden was sacked in order to make results better (some say this new Methven wrangled regime should be judged on results) then four points dropped at Stevenage and Shrewsbury are not improvements, had we won both of those games a case can be made that things have got better.
So your beholding Appleton accountable for the points we dropped under Holden?
Win at home draw away is your target and Appleton has a 100% success rate and your still not happy?
You’re right I am not happy. Appleton is not accountable for the points dropped under Holden, Holden and the regime are. So if they recognised that and subsequently sacked Holden my expectation is an improvement. The improvement has been players coming back from injury, not the results, they have merely marked time, and if we don’t win the next two games it won’t even be marking time anymore. I want automatic promotion this season, doesn’t every fan? I am not interested in any Methven wrangled realism, or excuses. What is even the point of being involved in the sport if you don’t aspire to success?
If hypothetically you were offered play offs now would you take it?
We have sacked the manager who started the season, and appointed a new one.
The new manager has a 0% lose rate.
The new manager has in my opinion dropped four points at Stevenage and Shrewsbury. Had we won both of those games by my calculation we would be four points behind my target instead of the current eight. We now have to beat Exeter and Blackpool to simply stand still and remain eight points behind (my) target. I can see some progress in players being available after injury, so in that respect Appleton has fallen into a pot of jam, but if Holden was sacked in order to make results better (some say this new Methven wrangled regime should be judged on results) then four points dropped at Stevenage and Shrewsbury are not improvements, had we won both of those games a case can be made that things have got better.
So your beholding Appleton accountable for the points we dropped under Holden?
Win at home draw away is your target and Appleton has a 100% success rate and your still not happy?
You’re right I am not happy. Appleton is not accountable for the points dropped under Holden, Holden and the regime are. So if they recognised that and subsequently sacked Holden my expectation is an improvement. The improvement has been players coming back from injury, not the results, they have merely marked time, and if we don’t win the next two games it won’t even be marking time anymore. I want automatic promotion this season, doesn’t every fan? I am not interested in any Methven wrangled realism, or excuses. What is even the point of being involved in the sport if you don’t aspire to success?
If hypothetically you were offered play offs now would you take it?
I think Appleton/Pearce have done well to get the points total that we have got. I am yet to be fully sold on how Appleton has set us up in the last couple of games however and don’t feel like he’s maximised our chances of getting positive results.
The Leaburn out wide with Campbell in the middle is just odd and hasn’t worked.
Taylor was an odd inclusion in my opinion for the starting line up yesterday as he’s too similar to Dobson when working in a 2.
Lots of positives too including keeping that much needed clean sheet.
I think we’ll see a couple of changes tomorrow. I would expect C Campbell get his chance from the start. I also reckon Appleton may go with Aneke or Tedic to start ahead of Leaburn.
Comments
Start you own Derby scores thread!
If we had played 442 or 352 or 235 we would have won that is a great Internet punditry line because you can never be proved wrong.
If we go 352 and ever lose a game it will because "CBT isn't a wing back" OR you have got to play CBT and if you don't you deserve the sack.
It's the same when a fan favourite isn't picked, if Fraser doesn't start the next two games and we don't get 6 points it will be the reason.
The manager can't win because the fans always comment post match with hindsight.
How many people questioned the selection BEFORE the game? After it won last week.
If you can take any positives out of it then I for one am glad that Appleton has so far had enough about him to recognise when things aren't working and change it generally for the better - would it be better if we got it right first time? Of course it would. Is he going to keep getting away with slow/poor starts salvaged by tweaking it? Probably not.
But all in all unbeaten in 4 games has to be seen as a strong start even if you do think the results have been flattering compared to performance.
Much prefer lost 1 in 4 where the other 3 are all wins = 9 points.
It's not not losing which is the problem, its not winning.
And if we are going by the mantra of "win your home games & draw your aways" then we'd better win the next 2.......or will people still be happy with the "but we are still unbeaten" mantra when we drop more points over the next 6 days.
We were shite, Shrewsbury were shite, pure league one shiteness. Shrewsbury didn't hold the mighty Charlton Athletic to a 0-0 draw because they may have made their pitch slightly smaller, although it's nice to see a different excuse other than blaming the constant flow of anti Charlton refs we get. I get it, I love Charlton as much as the next one of you but man, some people really view things through some very thick, heavily rose tinted glasses.
Even during the last 3 games we still showed some of our ongoing problems with set pieces and defensive lapses, the two wins didn't erase those immediately. Improved performances yes, but far from challenging still. Saturday just backed that up.
Players, Isted gets the special mention, did well to keep us in it at times whilst also looking a bit dodgy still, but improving, a player who definitely needs a run of games.to get in to form.
Tactics, given our squad we can be a more flexible in our formations and approach to away games, would say we have clear home and away selections, CBT and Campbell stand out as the obvious two who probably feature better/ more effective at home than away.
Anyway, nice not to lose when looking utter gash, even with the 5 a side pitch Shrewsbury forced us to play on. Bastards.
Appleton's comments were obvious and right. Thinking about it, when I managed, I used to tell the team to keep a tally of their personal battles and ensure they won more than they lost. Of course some people haven't got it in them, but in that first half we lost most of them. That isn't about skill, it is about strength and desire. Aneke came on and the tide turned. I suppose with a young player like Campbell you can teach that. I noticed he did win one 50/50 so it showed he had it in him. Something to work on maybe.
Not sure how it ended nil nil, both teams could have won it.
Another frustrating first half similar to Stevenage away a couple of weeks back but this time Isted made some good saves and kept us in it.
Better second half and we had some chances our selves and their keeper made some good saves, Chucks should have scored with his header and was frustrated with himself, after the game could see he was annoyed with himself. Unlike Stevenage though I felt they was the more likely to score in the last 5-10 minutes.
As others have said, Isted best game for us so hopefully a real confidence boost for him and he can push on. Jones as well I thought was brilliant, I think he has been very impressive all season and thought Hector looked a bit more like the Hector from last season. Dobson was Dobson and played well, I am not sure If I am only just seeing it but seems to me Dobson has changed his game and is a lot more involved this season and driving us on, reminding me of Scott Parker sometimes (not the standard).
Miles, Tupac and CBT all looked of to me which did not help our attacking play so nice we have the option of Chucks and Tedic to change it up as well as Fraser coming back.
Shrewsbury if not getting the train is a bit of a rubbish away day not helped by the rain literally pissing in my chips pre match at the fan zone. Also the Shrewsbury annoucer has got to be the most boring announcer in the league, Though it was Farnell’s barrister at one point.
Still upbeaten since DH has gone. Win the next 2 home games and that is a good point on the road.
Had we won both of those games by my calculation we would be four points behind my target instead of the current eight.
We now have to beat Exeter and Blackpool to simply stand still and remain eight points behind (my) target.
I can see some progress in players being available after injury, so in that respect Appleton has fallen into a pot of jam, but if Holden was sacked in order to make results better (some say this new Methven wrangled regime should be judged on results) then four points dropped at Stevenage and Shrewsbury are not improvements, had we won both of those games a case can be made that things have got better.
I thought it was Tedic but seen Tenic now a few times.
Win at home draw away is your target and Appleton has a 100% success rate and your still not happy?
Appleton is not accountable for the points dropped under Holden, Holden and the regime are. So if they recognised that and subsequently sacked Holden my expectation is an improvement.
The improvement has been players coming back from injury, not the results, they have merely marked time, and if we don’t win the next two games it won’t even be marking time anymore.
I want automatic promotion this season, doesn’t every fan? I am not interested in any Methven wrangled realism, or excuses. What is even the point of being involved in the sport if you don’t aspire to success?
Play offs are a bit of a dodgy consolation.
The Leaburn out wide with Campbell in the middle is just odd and hasn’t worked.