I have always had a feeling that the Sky commentators go a little easy with the players and coaches in their interviews. However, today it was good to hear them pushing Stokes and McCullum a little bit after the game on team selection, tactics etc, e.g. they rotate the bowlers depending upon conditions, fitness, form etc but do they ever consider doing the same for the batsmen. Names weren't mentioned but clearly there is an issue with Pope and Crawley's performances in the series, particularly some of their decision making in playing spin.
Nasser was also probing about what they may have learnt from the series - he was thinking in terms of what our spinners may have learnt from watching and facing the Pakistan spinners and also our batsmen in terms of how the Pakistan batsmen play spin bowling.
India lose a home series for the 1st time since losing to England in 2012. Great achievement by NZ.
Santner 13 wickets for NZ.
Santner is 32 and it's amazing how many spinners get better in their 30's. Sajid 31 and Noman 38 are proof of that. The Superstar spinners like Warne and Muralitharan were the finished article at a young age.
India lose a home series for the 1st time since losing to England in 2012. Great achievement by NZ.
Santner 13 wickets for NZ.
Santner is 32 and it's amazing how many spinners get better in their 30's. Sajid 31 and Noman 38 are proof of that. The Superstar spinners like Warne and Muralitharan were the finished article at a young age.
*Leuth racing to make some self-aggrandising comment*
The golf focus thing annoys me because it isn’t just England, it’s a cricket wide thing. What did Maxwell do the day before his monster innings at the ODI WC? He didn’t hit a single cricket ball and played a round of golf.
Maybe England have taken it too far, but the way the media discuss it is like England are the only team who like to play golf. In reality, they just talk about it more
The Maxwell innings is a bit of a red herring - one because, on that deck, the white ball wasn't doing what the red ball was doing in the last two matches in Pakistan and also because he is a "see ball/hit ball" cricketer. There is a reason why Maxwell has only played 7 Tests and averages 26.07 doing so.
While Australia were getting ready for the First Ashes Test at The Oval, by thrashing India to win the World Test Championship, England's players and management were playing golf in Loch Lomond. We did not play a single game of red ball cricket by way of warm matches prior to India, having come from hitting a white ball on road but stayed in Abu Dhabi AND then returned there mid series to play more golf rather than using that time to learn from the mistakes we've been making in those conditions.
It's not the golf itself and playing by way of relaxation is fantastic. It's the way it dominates our preparation. There is now a culture of individuals taking personal responsibility for their preparation, rather than being dictated to. Training sessions are optional; players' availability to play county cricket is largely left up to them, as is the final call on participation in franchise leagues. There should be individual responsibility but when we are faced with challenges such as playing in India or Pakistan on turning tracks then there has to be a management decision that both batters and bowlers spend time playing in the middle by way of preparation.
To use the golfing analogy. How many successful golfers do not prepare for Majors by studying the course, playing a round, trying shots at each and every hole from different positions prior to that?
For the TEST squad?! I'm fucking done with these clowns
Don't know what you're on about. The lad might only average 25.44 in FC cricket and never scored a ton as a pro but you can hardly argue with his other credentials:
Bethell has also been able to call upon one of the all-time greats for help.
Sir Garfield Sobers, the legendary West Indies all-rounder, is a family friend who has offered advice at home and on the golf course – words of discouragement too.
"I have been lucky enough to play a couple of rounds with him," adds Bethell.
"He tries to get in your head, tries to chatter.
"His swing is nice, it's a bit slower now. Mine is slightly quicker but I've got about 60 years on him.
"He still refuses to play off the white tees. He's always back on the blues where I play off."
friend (who would never have made this up and was out there on the tour and knows some of the bigwigs in cricket) told me when England played in NZ and made them follow on and lost the test, when no one really follows on nowadays , that England were trying to rush the result through cos they had a tee off time booked for the 5th day .....
I mentioned previously how I felt that it would do Bashir some good to get some experience of club cricket in Australia this winter where the standard of Grade cricket is exceptionally high - for more game time and to get used to what it's like to bowl on hard bouncy tracks against quality batsmen who aren't going to hold back.
Jake Fraser-McGurk's last game for Australia was in a T20 against England in Cardiff when he scored 50 off 31 balls. He has moved states this season to South Australia and has joined West Torrens for his club (who also have, amongst others, Spencer Johnson in their ranks). Yesterday he played in a two-day game (second day next Saturday) and was out first ball. Today he took part in a 50 over match. And was again out first ball.
The standard of club cricket out there really is a level above that seen here simply because there aren't State games, week in week out and even when there is, players are expected and willing to turn out for their clubs. Even if it's only for half a dozen games or so, Bashir would do far better playing there than bowling in indoor nets here.
Well Bashir might not be going to play club cricket in Australia but joining Jake Fraser-McGurk and Spencer Johnson in the West Torrens team is Jack Carson of Sussex who at least one member on CL has been advocating an England call up. The offie was Sussex's leading wicket taker last season, picking up 50 wickets at 22.46 in the CC.
Ben Stokes (Durham) Captain Rehan Ahmed (Leicestershire) Gus Atkinson (Surrey) Shoaib Bashir (Somerset) Jacob Bethell (Warwickshire) Harry Brook (Yorkshire) Brydon Carse (Durham) Jordan Cox (Essex) Zak Crawley (Kent) Ben Duckett (Nottinghamshire) Jack Leach (Somerset) Ollie Pope (Surrey) Matthew Potts (Durham) Joe Root (Yorkshire) Olly Stone (Nottinghamshire) Chris Woakes (Warwickshire)
Baffling choice. I can't think of the criteria of choosing him for the Test team. We seem to be endlessly picking jam tomorrow squads, as if winning series didn't matter
Bethel is such a weird pick. Would have taken Ollie Robinson (not the Sussex one) or if they wanted an extra bowler take Sam Cook for when Stone or Stokes inevitably breaks down.
For the TEST squad?! I'm fucking done with these clowns
Ollie Robinson is the obvious choice. Cox can move up the order if needed as he would have in Pakistan if there was an injury.
As many are aware, I've known Ollie since he was a baby but what I am about to say is pure conjecture and I have not spoken to him or anyone close to him about this.
As far as I'm aware, no one in the game will ever say a bad word about Ollie. He's the first to stop and have a chat when he sees someone he recognises. Equally, Kent were gutted when they lost him and unlike when Jordan Cox left, they wished him well and have left that door open for him to return one day. They have even tweeted events such as his birthday or when he's done well. There is no bad blood whatsoever and Kent really do wish, especially as things turned out with Cox, that they still had him.
However, with the runs he's scored in the last two seasons at Bazball pace too and his ability with the gloves, there has to be a reason as to why he hasn't been given this opportunity. He has had the England captain at close hand (played with him this season) and Rob Key would have known all about him from the time when Key was captain of the 1st XI and Ollie was in the age group system.
Perhaps therein lies the problem. A few years ago when Seb was being coached by a Kent coach, someone had on their phone live footage of Ollie batting against Warwickshire as he was just about to reach his maiden hundred. The session was stopped and everyone crowded around. Once he reached that milestone, that coach turned around to me and said "well we always knew that Zak (Crawley) was going to make it but we never thought Ollie would." It seems that he has always had to fight against that. Kent refused to play him in T20 and the irony is that sending him out on loan to Durham for a season for the Blast opened the door for him to go there permanently.
So this decision making not to select Ollie for England could be a legacy of that perception. Ollie has had to fight so hard to get to where he is today. He doesn't have that same confident, almost arrogant (and I don't mean that in a derogatory way) swagger that a Crawley, Smith or Cox possesses or cricketing connections that a Bethell does. Or it could be something technical that England's analysts have seen. Whatever the reason is, it's not because he hasn't done the "hard yards" or that he wouldn't fit in or because he doesn't play golf (because he does).
I, for one, would love to see Ollie in an England shirt. If anyone deserves his chance it is him. But I, like many others, are scratching our heads as to why he hasn't. I also hope that he uses this to spur him on and prove those in charge wrong. It wouldn't be the first time that he's had to do that.
I’ve said before but the whole England setup absolutely reeks of arrogance. From the way they play, to the interviews they give, to the disdain they show anyone who dares question anything about them. They will say it is confidence, but to me at least it has gone past that and now just stinks of arrogance and hubris.
The style they play is very watchable admittedly, but I have come to a realisation that I just don’t really like them much as a team.
Nobody could possibly argue with a straight face that Bethel is in the squad on merit. It’s impossible to even make the case given he is for behind others in experience, stats, form etc.
I do genuinely think he, along with a number of others, are a product of the arrogance that seems to flow through the whole setup. It feels like they are just getting picked so that the camp can turn round and say ‘Told you so’ if they end up doing alright over some of the more obvious picks. And if they don’t the camp will no doubt say it’s the media and fans fault for not believing in them.
There must be a lot of very frustrated players in the Counties at the moment, it has normally always been the case that if you do well in the counties consistently you will eventually get an opportunity. That seems to have gone out the window now. I don’t want to turn the thread into an Ollie Robinson love in but how he hasn’t had an opportunity yet is baffling to say the least. Again, Cox is a fine cricketer but how can anyone think he is our best option as a keeper out in NZ is beyond me.
All the best to Bethel of course, not his fault and clearly isn’t going to turn down the opportunity so let’s hope he does well.
For the TEST squad?! I'm fucking done with these clowns
Ollie Robinson is the obvious choice. Cox can move up the order if needed as he would have in Pakistan if there was an injury.
As many are aware, I've known Ollie since he was a baby but what I am about to say is pure conjecture and I have not spoken to him or anyone close to him about this.
As far as I'm aware, no one in the game will ever say a bad word about Ollie. He's the first to stop and have a chat when he sees someone he recognises. Equally, Kent were gutted when they lost him and unlike when Jordan Cox left, they wished him well and have left that door open for him to return one day. They have even tweeted events such as his birthday or when he's done well. There is no bad blood whatsoever and Kent really do wish, especially as things turned out with Cox, that they still had him.
However, with the runs he's scored in the last two seasons at Bazball pace too and his ability with the gloves, there has to be a reason as to why he hasn't been given this opportunity. He has had the England captain at close hand (played with him this season) and Rob Key would have known all about him from the time when Key was captain of the 1st XI and Ollie was in the age group system.
Perhaps therein lies the problem. A few years ago when Seb was being coached by a Kent coach, someone had on their phone live footage of Ollie batting against Warwickshire as he was just about to reach his maiden hundred. The session was stopped and everyone crowded around. Once he reached that milestone, that coach turned around to me and said "well we always knew that Zak (Crawley) was going to make it but we never thought Ollie would." It seems that he has always had to fight against that. Kent refused to play him in T20 and the irony is that sending him out on loan to Durham for a season for the Blast opened the door for him to go there permanently.
So this decision making not to select Ollie for England could be a legacy of that perception. Ollie has had to fight so hard to get to where he is today. He doesn't have that same confident, almost arrogant (and I don't mean that in a derogatory way) swagger that a Crawley, Smith or Cox possesses or cricketing connections that a Bethell does. Or it could be something technical that England's analysts have seen. Whatever the reason is, it's not because he hasn't done the "hard yards" or that he wouldn't fit in or because he doesn't play golf (because he does).
I, for one, would love to see Ollie in an England shirt. If anyone deserves his chance it is him. But I, like many others, are scratching our heads as to why he hasn't. I also hope that he uses this to spur him on and prove those in charge wrong. It wouldn't be the first time that he's had to do that.
As you said, Kent were disappointed when Ollie left especially after the double Hundred against Worcestershire in the August. The offer of a 3 year contract from Durham was too good to turn down I assume. Playing for Durham doesn't affect being picked for England and with Stokes as Captain, he must've been close to getting the nod.
NZ are on a high after beating India and this will be a challenge for many young players.
For the TEST squad?! I'm fucking done with these clowns
Ollie Robinson is the obvious choice. Cox can move up the order if needed as he would have in Pakistan if there was an injury.
As many are aware, I've known Ollie since he was a baby but what I am about to say is pure conjecture and I have not spoken to him or anyone close to him about this.
As far as I'm aware, no one in the game will ever say a bad word about Ollie. He's the first to stop and have a chat when he sees someone he recognises. Equally, Kent were gutted when they lost him and unlike when Jordan Cox left, they wished him well and have left that door open for him to return one day. They have even tweeted events such as his birthday or when he's done well. There is no bad blood whatsoever and Kent really do wish, especially as things turned out with Cox, that they still had him.
However, with the runs he's scored in the last two seasons at Bazball pace too and his ability with the gloves, there has to be a reason as to why he hasn't been given this opportunity. He has had the England captain at close hand (played with him this season) and Rob Key would have known all about him from the time when Key was captain of the 1st XI and Ollie was in the age group system.
Perhaps therein lies the problem. A few years ago when Seb was being coached by a Kent coach, someone had on their phone live footage of Ollie batting against Warwickshire as he was just about to reach his maiden hundred. The session was stopped and everyone crowded around. Once he reached that milestone, that coach turned around to me and said "well we always knew that Zak (Crawley) was going to make it but we never thought Ollie would." It seems that he has always had to fight against that. Kent refused to play him in T20 and the irony is that sending him out on loan to Durham for a season for the Blast opened the door for him to go there permanently.
So this decision making not to select Ollie for England could be a legacy of that perception. Ollie has had to fight so hard to get to where he is today. He doesn't have that same confident, almost arrogant (and I don't mean that in a derogatory way) swagger that a Crawley, Smith or Cox possesses or cricketing connections that a Bethell does. Or it could be something technical that England's analysts have seen. Whatever the reason is, it's not because he hasn't done the "hard yards" or that he wouldn't fit in or because he doesn't play golf (because he does).
I, for one, would love to see Ollie in an England shirt. If anyone deserves his chance it is him. But I, like many others, are scratching our heads as to why he hasn't. I also hope that he uses this to spur him on and prove those in charge wrong. It wouldn't be the first time that he's had to do that.
As you said, Kent were disappointed when Ollie left especially after the double Hundred against Worcestershire in the August. The offer of a 3 year contract from Durham was too good to turn down I assume. Playing for Durham doesn't affect being picked for England and with Stokes as Captain, he must've been close to getting the nod.
NZ are on a high after beating India and this will be a challenge for many young players.
I don't think that it was the offer of a 3 year contract that was the deal breaker. It was being told by Durham that he would be their keeper in all forms of the game and bat at 5 in the CC and 4 in white ball. I also believe that the decision to leave had already been made prior to that double ton and that at least another three counties were interested in Robinson. The irony, as I've said, is that he still had a year to run but he was able to invoke a clause in his contract that would allow him to leave a year early if he didn't play a T20 game for Kent and rather than do that we sent him off to Durham on loan.
At Kent, Robinson couldn't be sure that he would be in the red ball side let alone in the white form of the game. Billings would return from carrying the drinks for England or from some franchise and Robinson would be dropped whereas Cox would always keep his place in the side regardless of form. Then, once Robinson had left, Billings gave the gloves to Cox which is why the likes of both the Kent captain ("As a club I don’t think we could have supported his journey any more & at times prioritised his development over others") and the Director of Cricket, Paul Downton ("We're disappointed that Jordan has decided to move on from Kent next year, he has made a name for himself as a Kent cricketer and has been extremely well supported by the club") both expressed their anger at him choosing to leave. That comment from Billings was a clear reference to Cox being given opportunities over Robinson.
I'd say Pope should be worried. Cox is definitely an option for 3 when not keeping and I'm sure they'll want to find a way to get Bethell in for one of the tests
No more international cricket on free-to-air TV but the failing Hundred, with their viewing figures plummeting by 25%, will continue to be shown on BBC. The ECB, when asked about this, declined to comment. Little wonder they did.
Notts_Addick said: I’ve said before but the whole England setup absolutely reeks of arrogance. From the way they play, to the interviews they give, to the disdain they show anyone who dares question anything about them. They will say it is confidence, but to me at least it has gone past that and now just stinks of arrogance and hubris.
The style they play is very watchable admittedly, but I have come to a realisation that I just don’t really like them much as a team.
Nobody could possibly argue with a straight face that Bethel is in the squad on merit. It’s impossible to even make the case given he is for behind others in experience, stats, form etc.
I do genuinely think he, along with a number of others, are a product of the arrogance that seems to flow through the whole setup. It feels like they are just getting picked so that the camp can turn round and say ‘Told you so’ if they end up doing alright over some of the more obvious picks. And if they don’t the camp will no doubt say it’s the media and fans fault for not believing in them.
There must be a lot of very frustrated players in the Counties at the moment, it has normally always been the case that if you do well in the counties consistently you will eventually get an opportunity. That seems to have gone out the window now. I don’t want to turn the thread into an Ollie Robinson love in but how he hasn’t had an opportunity yet is baffling to say the least. Again, Cox is a fine cricketer but how can anyone think he is our best option as a keeper out in NZ is beyond me.
All the best to Bethel of course, not his fault and clearly isn’t going to turn down the opportunity so let’s hope he does well.
I was about to post the same thing regarding the arrogance of the set up. As a result, there's part of me that wouldn't mind seeing this England side get walloped in Australia. They still haven't learned their lessons of looking beyond series to The Ashes either.
Bethell has never scored a first class century and has a first class batting average of 25. There's thinking outside the box ,but this seems ridiculous to me.
Comments
Nasser was also probing about what they may have learnt from the series - he was thinking in terms of what our spinners may have learnt from watching and facing the Pakistan spinners and also our batsmen in terms of how the Pakistan batsmen play spin bowling.
Santner 13 wickets for NZ.
Santner is 32 and it's amazing how many spinners get better in their 30's. Sajid 31 and Noman 38 are proof of that. The Superstar spinners like Warne and Muralitharan were the finished article at a young age.
While Australia were getting ready for the First Ashes Test at The Oval, by thrashing India to win the World Test Championship, England's players and management were playing golf in Loch Lomond. We did not play a single game of red ball cricket by way of warm matches prior to India, having come from hitting a white ball on road but stayed in Abu Dhabi AND then returned there mid series to play more golf rather than using that time to learn from the mistakes we've been making in those conditions.
It's not the golf itself and playing by way of relaxation is fantastic. It's the way it dominates our preparation. There is now a culture of individuals taking personal responsibility for their preparation, rather than being dictated to. Training sessions are optional; players' availability to play county cricket is largely left up to them, as is the final call on participation in franchise leagues. There should be individual responsibility but when we are faced with challenges such as playing in India or Pakistan on turning tracks then there has to be a management decision that both batters and bowlers spend time playing in the middle by way of preparation.
To use the golfing analogy. How many successful golfers do not prepare for Majors by studying the course, playing a round, trying shots at each and every hole from different positions prior to that?
Bethell has also been able to call upon one of the all-time greats for help.
Sir Garfield Sobers, the legendary West Indies all-rounder, is a family friend who has offered advice at home and on the golf course – words of discouragement too.
"I have been lucky enough to play a couple of rounds with him," adds Bethell.
"He tries to get in your head, tries to chatter.
"His swing is nice, it's a bit slower now. Mine is slightly quicker but I've got about 60 years on him.
"He still refuses to play off the white tees. He's always back on the blues where I play off."
Ben Stokes (Durham) Captain
Rehan Ahmed (Leicestershire)
Gus Atkinson (Surrey)
Shoaib Bashir (Somerset)
Jacob Bethell (Warwickshire)
Harry Brook (Yorkshire)
Brydon Carse (Durham)
Jordan Cox (Essex)
Zak Crawley (Kent)
Ben Duckett (Nottinghamshire)
Jack Leach (Somerset)
Ollie Pope (Surrey)
Matthew Potts (Durham)
Joe Root (Yorkshire)
Olly Stone (Nottinghamshire)
Chris Woakes (Warwickshire)
As far as I'm aware, no one in the game will ever say a bad word about Ollie. He's the first to stop and have a chat when he sees someone he recognises. Equally, Kent were gutted when they lost him and unlike when Jordan Cox left, they wished him well and have left that door open for him to return one day. They have even tweeted events such as his birthday or when he's done well. There is no bad blood whatsoever and Kent really do wish, especially as things turned out with Cox, that they still had him.
However, with the runs he's scored in the last two seasons at Bazball pace too and his ability with the gloves, there has to be a reason as to why he hasn't been given this opportunity. He has had the England captain at close hand (played with him this season) and Rob Key would have known all about him from the time when Key was captain of the 1st XI and Ollie was in the age group system.
Perhaps therein lies the problem. A few years ago when Seb was being coached by a Kent coach, someone had on their phone live footage of Ollie batting against Warwickshire as he was just about to reach his maiden hundred. The session was stopped and everyone crowded around. Once he reached that milestone, that coach turned around to me and said "well we always knew that Zak (Crawley) was going to make it but we never thought Ollie would." It seems that he has always had to fight against that. Kent refused to play him in T20 and the irony is that sending him out on loan to Durham for a season for the Blast opened the door for him to go there permanently.
So this decision making not to select Ollie for England could be a legacy of that perception. Ollie has had to fight so hard to get to where he is today. He doesn't have that same confident, almost arrogant (and I don't mean that in a derogatory way) swagger that a Crawley, Smith or Cox possesses or cricketing connections that a Bethell does. Or it could be something technical that England's analysts have seen. Whatever the reason is, it's not because he hasn't done the "hard yards" or that he wouldn't fit in or because he doesn't play golf (because he does).
I, for one, would love to see Ollie in an England shirt. If anyone deserves his chance it is him. But I, like many others, are scratching our heads as to why he hasn't. I also hope that he uses this to spur him on and prove those in charge wrong. It wouldn't be the first time that he's had to do that.
I’ve said before but the whole England setup absolutely reeks of arrogance. From the way they play, to the interviews they give, to the disdain they show anyone who dares question anything about them. They will say it is confidence, but to me at least it has gone past that and now just stinks of arrogance and hubris.
The style they play is very watchable admittedly, but I have come to a realisation that I just don’t really like them much as a team.
Nobody could possibly argue with a straight face that Bethel is in the squad on merit. It’s impossible to even make the case given he is for behind others in experience, stats, form etc.
I do genuinely think he, along with a number of others, are a product of the arrogance that seems to flow through the whole setup. It feels like they are just getting picked so that the camp can turn round and say ‘Told you so’ if they end up doing alright over some of the more obvious picks. And if they don’t the camp will no doubt say it’s the media and fans fault for not believing in them.
There must be a lot of very frustrated players in the Counties at the moment, it has normally always been the case that if you do well in the counties consistently you will eventually get an opportunity. That seems to have gone out the window now. I don’t want to turn the thread into an Ollie Robinson love in but how he hasn’t had an opportunity yet is baffling to say the least. Again, Cox is a fine cricketer but how can anyone think he is our best option as a keeper out in NZ is beyond me.
All the best to Bethel of course, not his fault and clearly isn’t going to turn down the opportunity so let’s hope he does well.
As you said, Kent were disappointed when Ollie left especially after the double Hundred against Worcestershire in the August. The offer of a 3 year contract from Durham was too good to turn down I assume. Playing for Durham doesn't affect being picked for England and with Stokes as Captain, he must've been close to getting the nod.
NZ are on a high after beating India and this will be a challenge for many young players.
At Kent, Robinson couldn't be sure that he would be in the red ball side let alone in the white form of the game. Billings would return from carrying the drinks for England or from some franchise and Robinson would be dropped whereas Cox would always keep his place in the side regardless of form. Then, once Robinson had left, Billings gave the gloves to Cox which is why the likes of both the Kent captain ("As a club I don’t think we could have supported his journey any more & at times prioritised his development over others") and the Director of Cricket, Paul Downton ("We're disappointed that Jordan has decided to move on from Kent next year, he has made a name for himself as a Kent cricketer and has been extremely well supported by the club") both expressed their anger at him choosing to leave. That comment from Billings was a clear reference to Cox being given opportunities over Robinson.
https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2024/oct/29/cricket-england-ecb-fails-to-agree-free-tv-deal?fbclid=IwY2xjawGOMqtleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHRXm_p9sCoWDm3ZcznYTIDg5fhyALN3eZ6KE4Lwt18NtIrV9dq3HwPhObw_aem_H7ArHGeQAQIIxRwzQ1r_5g
There's thinking outside the box ,but this seems ridiculous to me.
ECB Regional Officiating Development Officer
I have already thanked Alan for the injury time penalty he gave us!