Attention: Please take a moment to consider our terms and conditions before posting.
Post Office Horizon scandal
Comments
-
I think this is the right sequence of remedial actions required. I'm a little concerned about a government, particularly this one, rushing through legislation providing blanket "pardons" and further interfering in the judicial process.
Devastating though the impact has been we don't really have this sort of system in the UK as it's set up to review each case individually.2 -
I assume this is one of those as, according to Panorama, the Fujitsu bid came bottom in 7 of 11 categories. But it was the cheapest.Algarveaddick said:
Have you read Private Eye Nick? Under this government some contracts (especially since they got away with using covid to change the rules) undergo very little scrutiny.valleynick66 said:
You are determined to make this political when everyone seems in agreement this is a shocking situation that has taken too long to rectify.ME14addick said:
There are questions to be asked of many people, but the fact is that only one political party has been in power for the whole of the period from 2010, and that is the Conservatives.Huskaris said:Quite a good article on those with questions to answer. Being a typical right wing rag though Rishi Sunak and all the other Tories have somehow avoided criticism. Typical client journalists.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/08/paula-vennells-to-ed-davey-the-people-with-questions-to-answer-on-the-post-office-scandal
It is only now that the Government is doing something with any urgency, they have had plenty of time to put in place measures to quash the convictions of everyone wrongly accused by the Post Office, but it has taken a drama to push them into action. Compensation claims have been slow to settle.
Last year, I remember hearing a Tory minister, can't remember who, talking about the £600K compensation award and using the words, 'take it or leave it', that shows no compassion at all. £600K may sound a lot to ordinary people, but it represents about a year's salary for some of the Chief Executives of the Post Office.
Questions must be asked about links between Tory party donors and the Post Office, also the awarding of big bonuses and honours to people who lied and failed to do their job properly.
It is the Tory Government that is STILL awarding contracts to Fujitsu.But to the point above is it true that all Fujitsu contracts are signed off by a politician? I had imagined that in public procurement only the biggest / highest value items require the ‘minister’ level approvals. It is I thought civil servants approving many contracts ?
Public procurement requires a number of hoops and hurdles including due diligence of the bidding parties. I imagine Fujitsu have been careful to distinguish their involvement of delivering to agreed specifications and criteria versus the ‘business’ acceptance / approval and adoption of deliverables. It’s the corporate world we live in where outsourcing of elements blurs who is responsible. But accountability is surely with the Post Office management.0 -
"Protecting the brand"
Whether it's monarchy or Behemoths like the Post office, Boeing, BBC, Church etc it's always about protecting the Brand and the individuals who may or may not have done anything wrong are either persecuted like the Postmasters or protected like Saville because he was friends with Thatcher and Prince Charles, plus it was blocked along the chain of command when reported to the police.
0 -
I just think it a shame really ME14.ME14addick said:
Is it, I can't find out who it was that awarded her the CBE for services to the Post Office and charity? If you know who it was, please can you let us all know. That person or body has a lot to answer for, as does the person who appointed her as Chair of the Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust on leaving the Post Office.clb74 said:
I think the case is out the bag now.ME14addick said:Whilst doing some research on the case this afternoon, I tried to find out who recommended that PV be granted a CBE. All I could find was that a FOI request has been made, but that takes time, so we may not not know for a while.
I agree that the honours system is being abused, it needs reform, as does The House of Lords.
I knew before the tv programme for years about the scandal.
I knew lots of people had gone to prison, a few had committed suicide and hundreds had lost everything.
I knew for the past few years the group had been messed about with their compensation.
For years now we've had the world of social media.
How has it taken a TV programme in 2024 to push this further on?
You said about looking into the scandal and the CBE further.
I should think now there are hundreds of people looking into it, it's out the bag.
This scandal has slipped past the majority of people in this country.
3 -
Yes, As they were once one and the same organisation, it will not surprise you to learn that Royal Mail also has an in-house investigation team .man_at_milletts said:One other subject which came out of this documentary was the Post Office's own judicial system which I believe is over 300 years old, and begs the question are there any others out there?
There are others, most are Govt. departments or quangos. For example the DWP does its own benefit fraud investigations. Indeed there are new proposals that will give powers of arrest, search and seizure to DWP investigators. Something I find unbelievable frankly. But the backstop of DWP investigations is that they still have to go to the CPS to get them into court.
Now the FCA is not far off a one-stop shop for its work. It investigates and prosecutes criminal cases. Often to the disbelief and much jealousy of police officers, there is no right to silence option in an FCA investigation - you can be prosecuted for destroying, falsifying or not providing documents or not answering the questions or lying to an investigator. For the civil matters it is effectively, investigator, judge and jury. Although in the latter cases, there is a tribunal safety net which acts a bit like a court of appeal.
Another example was the RSPCA which used to investigates and bring private prosecutions. Following some miscarriages of justice they have made the decision to stop doing their own prosecutions though.
Edited to add: Of course, in the main this all makes sense. Much of this stuff is highly specialised and can be complex; it needs experts to investigate such matters.
The plod don't have that kind of expertise in its ranks. (In fact with 30% of police officers having less than 5 years experience, they don't really have much expertise to do anything at all.)
2 -
The Honours system is plainly ridiculous- too many liars and crooks are rewarded.4
-
Bournemouth Addick said:
I think this is the right sequence of remedial actions required. I'm a little concerned about a government, particularly this one, rushing through legislation providing blanket "pardons" and further interfering in the judicial process.
Devastating though the impact has been we don't really have this sort of system in the UK as it's set up to review each case individually.Yes, so am I. I don't know what the answer is but this somehow does not seem right. Plus there's the danger that if this is done and Vennells falls on her sword much of this will be forgotten again by Joe Public. Whatever, I feel she should hand back the honour. If she knew what was going on then she's in the wrong. If she didn't know what was going on then she wasn't doing her job correctly and should not have accepted it.
0 -
It suggests that I want this thread to survive but it won’t if it becomes political.stevexreeve said:
This seems to suggest that you cannot criticise the "government" because it suggests political bias if you do so. Heaven help us!stonemuse said:
Agreed mate ... but some posts on here are drifting towards pure Tory-bashing which may lead to this thread being shut down.Algarveaddick said:
Have you read Private Eye Nick? Under this government some contracts (especially since they got away with using covid to change the rules) undergo very little scrutiny.valleynick66 said:
You are determined to make this political when everyone seems in agreement this is a shocking situation that has taken too long to rectify.ME14addick said:
There are questions to be asked of many people, but the fact is that only one political party has been in power for the whole of the period from 2010, and that is the Conservatives.Huskaris said:Quite a good article on those with questions to answer. Being a typical right wing rag though Rishi Sunak and all the other Tories have somehow avoided criticism. Typical client journalists.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/08/paula-vennells-to-ed-davey-the-people-with-questions-to-answer-on-the-post-office-scandal
It is only now that the Government is doing something with any urgency, they have had plenty of time to put in place measures to quash the convictions of everyone wrongly accused by the Post Office, but it has taken a drama to push them into action. Compensation claims have been slow to settle.
Last year, I remember hearing a Tory minister, can't remember who, talking about the £600K compensation award and using the words, 'take it or leave it', that shows no compassion at all. £600K may sound a lot to ordinary people, but it represents about a year's salary for some of the Chief Executives of the Post Office.
Questions must be asked about links between Tory party donors and the Post Office, also the awarding of big bonuses and honours to people who lied and failed to do their job properly.
It is the Tory Government that is STILL awarding contracts to Fujitsu.But to the point above is it true that all Fujitsu contracts are signed off by a politician? I had imagined that in public procurement only the biggest / highest value items require the ‘minister’ level approvals. It is I thought civil servants approving many contracts ?
Public procurement requires a number of hoops and hurdles including due diligence of the bidding parties. I imagine Fujitsu have been careful to distinguish their involvement of delivering to agreed specifications and criteria versus the ‘business’ acceptance / approval and adoption of deliverables. It’s the corporate world we live in where outsourcing of elements blurs who is responsible. But accountability is surely with the Post Office management.
Not that I am averse to having a go at the Government as you know, but needs to be avoided here if we want to keep a valuable thread going.“Heaven help us” lol1 -
Paula Vennells Cbe to be handed back6
-
Vennells has announced she's handing her CBE back. Alex Chalk is talking of legislating to quash the 800+ unsafe convictions.
I worked at Fujitsu for a decade so it's been disappointing to read about their role in this over the years. 2 individuals are being prosecuted, but they are culpable for standing up the lies that sustained this scandal over the years, in full knowledge their team were 'fixing' stuff remotely.
Private Eye deserves full recognition for keeping this in the public eye, but the drama and associated documentary were outstanding.16 - Sponsored links:
-
Politics inextricably linked to this scandal, I don't see how it can be avoided. Why are some people so reluctant to see criticism of the Government that has been in charge for 13 years, during which time there has been little action, until it was brought to wider attention by a drama on tv.5
-
Just think it strange that someone in the finance department at the PO, senior or otherwise, couldn't see the correlation between unusually high levels of discrepancies in accounts, and the introduction of this new system.9
-
I'm sure that someone (or ones) did ... proper due diligence would have made this obvious.Gribbo said:Just think it strange that someone in the finance department at the PO, senior or otherwise, couldn't see the correlation between unusually high levels of discrepancies in accounts, and the introduction of this new system.0 -
It's possible this was what they expected to see i.e was the system sold on the basis that it would show up previously undectable fraud?stonemuse said:
I'm sure that someone (or ones) did ... proper due diligence would have made this obvious.Gribbo said:Just think it strange that someone in the finance department at the PO, senior or otherwise, couldn't see the correlation between unusually high levels of discrepancies in accounts, and the introduction of this new system.5 -
ME14addick said:Politics inextricably linked to this scandal, I don't see how it can be avoided. Why are some people so reluctant to see criticism of the Government that has been in charge for 13 years, during which time there has been little action, until it was brought to wider attention by a drama on tv.
I dunno... This MP talking sense:
https://x.com/RosieisaHolt/status/1744711394405044569?s=20
5 -
I think you're right about the sequence. I also think that every person with a Horizon-based conviction should have the right to have their day in court so that they can have their personal story properly heard, recorded and acknowledged along with a complete exoneration and an apology. However the courts system is a mess (no points for guessing whose fault this is), so to do that satisfactorily may take considerable time. I therefore think that the blanket pardon option may be a useful option for people who don't have the time, energy, money* or willpower to go to court again. This should definitely be the individual's choice, not a bureaucratic decision to save time or money.Bournemouth Addick said:
I think this is the right sequence of remedial actions required. I'm a little concerned about a government, particularly this one, rushing through legislation providing blanket "pardons" and further interfering in the judicial process.
Devastating though the impact has been we don't really have this sort of system in the UK as it's set up to review each case individually.
*Actually thinking about this. Money really shouldn't prohibit anyone from having their day. Any associated costs really ought to be borne by The Post Office/Fujitsu (I won't hold my breath on that).4 -
Heard one of the few postmasters to have been exonerated, talking on tv this afternoon. He said that if they take the £600K offered, the Government is entitled to deduct money for any 'support' they may have been given, which I find appalling.3
-
Some is the key word.Algarveaddick said:
Have you read Private Eye Nick? Under this government some contracts (especially since they got away with using covid to change the rules) undergo very little scrutiny.valleynick66 said:
You are determined to make this political when everyone seems in agreement this is a shocking situation that has taken too long to rectify.ME14addick said:
There are questions to be asked of many people, but the fact is that only one political party has been in power for the whole of the period from 2010, and that is the Conservatives.Huskaris said:Quite a good article on those with questions to answer. Being a typical right wing rag though Rishi Sunak and all the other Tories have somehow avoided criticism. Typical client journalists.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/08/paula-vennells-to-ed-davey-the-people-with-questions-to-answer-on-the-post-office-scandal
It is only now that the Government is doing something with any urgency, they have had plenty of time to put in place measures to quash the convictions of everyone wrongly accused by the Post Office, but it has taken a drama to push them into action. Compensation claims have been slow to settle.
Last year, I remember hearing a Tory minister, can't remember who, talking about the £600K compensation award and using the words, 'take it or leave it', that shows no compassion at all. £600K may sound a lot to ordinary people, but it represents about a year's salary for some of the Chief Executives of the Post Office.
Questions must be asked about links between Tory party donors and the Post Office, also the awarding of big bonuses and honours to people who lied and failed to do their job properly.
It is the Tory Government that is STILL awarding contracts to Fujitsu.But to the point above is it true that all Fujitsu contracts are signed off by a politician? I had imagined that in public procurement only the biggest / highest value items require the ‘minister’ level approvals. It is I thought civil servants approving many contracts ?
Public procurement requires a number of hoops and hurdles including due diligence of the bidding parties. I imagine Fujitsu have been careful to distinguish their involvement of delivering to agreed specifications and criteria versus the ‘business’ acceptance / approval and adoption of deliverables. It’s the corporate world we live in where outsourcing of elements blurs who is responsible. But accountability is surely with the Post Office management.But how many are of a size where it’s a politician signing off and not civil servants?1 -
Is she for real?seriously_red said:ME14addick said:Politics inextricably linked to this scandal, I don't see how it can be avoided. Why are some people so reluctant to see criticism of the Government that has been in charge for 13 years, during which time there has been little action, until it was brought to wider attention by a drama on tv.
I dunno... This MP talking sense:
https://x.com/RosieisaHolt/status/1744711394405044569?s=201 -
Yes. Real comedienne.ME14addick said:
Is she for real?seriously_red said:ME14addick said:Politics inextricably linked to this scandal, I don't see how it can be avoided. Why are some people so reluctant to see criticism of the Government that has been in charge for 13 years, during which time there has been little action, until it was brought to wider attention by a drama on tv.
I dunno... This MP talking sense:
https://x.com/RosieisaHolt/status/1744711394405044569?s=200 - Sponsored links:
-
Ah, I fear I've been wooshed!Stig said:
Yes. Real comedienne.ME14addick said:
Is she for real?seriously_red said:ME14addick said:Politics inextricably linked to this scandal, I don't see how it can be avoided. Why are some people so reluctant to see criticism of the Government that has been in charge for 13 years, during which time there has been little action, until it was brought to wider attention by a drama on tv.
I dunno... This MP talking sense:
https://x.com/RosieisaHolt/status/1744711394405044569?s=200 -
That's the trouble these days. In the past political satire was either believable or outlandish. Nowadays it is frequently both.ME14addick said:
Ah, I fear I've been wooshed!Stig said:
Yes. Real comedienne.ME14addick said:
Is she for real?seriously_red said:ME14addick said:Politics inextricably linked to this scandal, I don't see how it can be avoided. Why are some people so reluctant to see criticism of the Government that has been in charge for 13 years, during which time there has been little action, until it was brought to wider attention by a drama on tv.
I dunno... This MP talking sense:
https://x.com/RosieisaHolt/status/1744711394405044569?s=203 -
Just to add to this miserable saga. I hope there is a proper invesigation into this scandal, and given the heartache caused, that severe prison sentances are broought in. As for the political side, I'm fairly sick of the grafting sleezy politicians we are having to put up with. I certainly think all three parties could be splashed by this, although as far as I can tell from the time line, Labour weren't really to aware of the problem until late in their last government. The coallition however did seem to have some idea of what was going down, and since then Private Eye have given it a lot of space, which the government have ignored. As I said, blame should be apportioned on the basis of who did what, not which party they are from, but I hope the guilty get the chance to suffer how it felt for the people who lost everything.
Fat chance.4 -
0
-
Bournemouth Addick said:
It's possible this was what they expected to see i.e was the system sold on the basis that it would show up previously undectable fraud?stonemuse said:
I'm sure that someone (or ones) did ... proper due diligence would have made this obvious.Gribbo said:Just think it strange that someone in the finance department at the PO, senior or otherwise, couldn't see the correlation between unusually high levels of discrepancies in accounts, and the introduction of this new system.The chance of someone committing fraud whilst on a pilot scheme, I would imagine would be incredibly low, yet some taking part in a pilot of Horizon were prosecuted by the Post Office. Alarm bells should have been ringing from the start.
With Fujitsu's track failure in Government IT systems, is still amazes me that they are being awarded Government contracts. In any other walk, would anyone keep giving business to a company that had sued, because they were about to lose a contract for a product that wasn't fit for purpose, as was the case with the NHS It system.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28464002
Government 'loses £700m NHS IT legal battle with Fujitsu'
- Published24 July 2014
Kevan Jones, the Labour MP who is a member of the Horizon compensation advisory board, said he was told by Post Office managers that the Horizon pilot scheme was rolled out to 300 branches in 1995.
“I have met one of the post office managers who was pursued by the Post Office after taking part in the pilot and then accused of mishandling money. There were protests that the system was faulty and the protests were ignored. They were obviously not a crook and should never have been prosecuted,” said Jones.
Jones said he believed there may be dozens more victims of the pilot scheme and said the Post Office should have disclosed the existence of the pilot years ago. “Amid the controversy and scandal over the Horizon system, no one from the Post Office thought to mention that they had this pilot scheme which also resulted in prosecutions.
0 -
I shall keep an eye on the situation and report back. What I will say is that the buck stops with the politicians, regardless - if they are appointing or continuing to employ slackers, it's down to them, this government have been in charge long enough to have sorted the wheat from the chaff. The relaxing of rules was the decision of politicians, in the light of this particular scandal, you would think they would be keeping a wary eye on any large contract (particularly those awarded to Tory party donors) so they can appear whiter than white. Rees-Mogg manages to slither around the desks of the Whitehall mandarins leaving sarky notes, I am sure he can spend a few moments actually seeing that they are doing the job properly?valleynick66 said:
Some is the key word.Algarveaddick said:
Have you read Private Eye Nick? Under this government some contracts (especially since they got away with using covid to change the rules) undergo very little scrutiny.valleynick66 said:
You are determined to make this political when everyone seems in agreement this is a shocking situation that has taken too long to rectify.ME14addick said:
There are questions to be asked of many people, but the fact is that only one political party has been in power for the whole of the period from 2010, and that is the Conservatives.Huskaris said:Quite a good article on those with questions to answer. Being a typical right wing rag though Rishi Sunak and all the other Tories have somehow avoided criticism. Typical client journalists.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/08/paula-vennells-to-ed-davey-the-people-with-questions-to-answer-on-the-post-office-scandal
It is only now that the Government is doing something with any urgency, they have had plenty of time to put in place measures to quash the convictions of everyone wrongly accused by the Post Office, but it has taken a drama to push them into action. Compensation claims have been slow to settle.
Last year, I remember hearing a Tory minister, can't remember who, talking about the £600K compensation award and using the words, 'take it or leave it', that shows no compassion at all. £600K may sound a lot to ordinary people, but it represents about a year's salary for some of the Chief Executives of the Post Office.
Questions must be asked about links between Tory party donors and the Post Office, also the awarding of big bonuses and honours to people who lied and failed to do their job properly.
It is the Tory Government that is STILL awarding contracts to Fujitsu.But to the point above is it true that all Fujitsu contracts are signed off by a politician? I had imagined that in public procurement only the biggest / highest value items require the ‘minister’ level approvals. It is I thought civil servants approving many contracts ?
Public procurement requires a number of hoops and hurdles including due diligence of the bidding parties. I imagine Fujitsu have been careful to distinguish their involvement of delivering to agreed specifications and criteria versus the ‘business’ acceptance / approval and adoption of deliverables. It’s the corporate world we live in where outsourcing of elements blurs who is responsible. But accountability is surely with the Post Office management.But how many are of a size where it’s a politician signing off and not civil servants?
I have looked to see how much a civil servant can sign away without ministerial approval, but can't find any information.2 -
Now she's returned her honour, reckon Alan Bates should be offered a Knighthood2
-
You've tried. I've tried. Others have tried.stonemuse said:
It suggests that I want this thread to survive but it won’t if it becomes political.stevexreeve said:
This seems to suggest that you cannot criticise the "government" because it suggests political bias if you do so. Heaven help us!stonemuse said:
Agreed mate ... but some posts on here are drifting towards pure Tory-bashing which may lead to this thread being shut down.Algarveaddick said:
Have you read Private Eye Nick? Under this government some contracts (especially since they got away with using covid to change the rules) undergo very little scrutiny.valleynick66 said:
You are determined to make this political when everyone seems in agreement this is a shocking situation that has taken too long to rectify.ME14addick said:
There are questions to be asked of many people, but the fact is that only one political party has been in power for the whole of the period from 2010, and that is the Conservatives.Huskaris said:Quite a good article on those with questions to answer. Being a typical right wing rag though Rishi Sunak and all the other Tories have somehow avoided criticism. Typical client journalists.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/08/paula-vennells-to-ed-davey-the-people-with-questions-to-answer-on-the-post-office-scandal
It is only now that the Government is doing something with any urgency, they have had plenty of time to put in place measures to quash the convictions of everyone wrongly accused by the Post Office, but it has taken a drama to push them into action. Compensation claims have been slow to settle.
Last year, I remember hearing a Tory minister, can't remember who, talking about the £600K compensation award and using the words, 'take it or leave it', that shows no compassion at all. £600K may sound a lot to ordinary people, but it represents about a year's salary for some of the Chief Executives of the Post Office.
Questions must be asked about links between Tory party donors and the Post Office, also the awarding of big bonuses and honours to people who lied and failed to do their job properly.
It is the Tory Government that is STILL awarding contracts to Fujitsu.But to the point above is it true that all Fujitsu contracts are signed off by a politician? I had imagined that in public procurement only the biggest / highest value items require the ‘minister’ level approvals. It is I thought civil servants approving many contracts ?
Public procurement requires a number of hoops and hurdles including due diligence of the bidding parties. I imagine Fujitsu have been careful to distinguish their involvement of delivering to agreed specifications and criteria versus the ‘business’ acceptance / approval and adoption of deliverables. It’s the corporate world we live in where outsourcing of elements blurs who is responsible. But accountability is surely with the Post Office management.
Not that I am averse to having a go at the Government as you know, but needs to be avoided here if we want to keep a valuable thread going.“Heaven help us” lol
And by and large i think people are in agreement that this is too important an issue to get bogged down in the usual politically-driven bullshit that we all know goes on.
But it seems some people just can't help themselves, and round we go again. 🤷🏻♂️10 -
Politics runs right through the whole sorry saga.Off_it said:
You've tried. I've tried. Others have tried.stonemuse said:
It suggests that I want this thread to survive but it won’t if it becomes political.stevexreeve said:
This seems to suggest that you cannot criticise the "government" because it suggests political bias if you do so. Heaven help us!stonemuse said:
Agreed mate ... but some posts on here are drifting towards pure Tory-bashing which may lead to this thread being shut down.Algarveaddick said:
Have you read Private Eye Nick? Under this government some contracts (especially since they got away with using covid to change the rules) undergo very little scrutiny.valleynick66 said:
You are determined to make this political when everyone seems in agreement this is a shocking situation that has taken too long to rectify.ME14addick said:
There are questions to be asked of many people, but the fact is that only one political party has been in power for the whole of the period from 2010, and that is the Conservatives.Huskaris said:Quite a good article on those with questions to answer. Being a typical right wing rag though Rishi Sunak and all the other Tories have somehow avoided criticism. Typical client journalists.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/08/paula-vennells-to-ed-davey-the-people-with-questions-to-answer-on-the-post-office-scandal
It is only now that the Government is doing something with any urgency, they have had plenty of time to put in place measures to quash the convictions of everyone wrongly accused by the Post Office, but it has taken a drama to push them into action. Compensation claims have been slow to settle.
Last year, I remember hearing a Tory minister, can't remember who, talking about the £600K compensation award and using the words, 'take it or leave it', that shows no compassion at all. £600K may sound a lot to ordinary people, but it represents about a year's salary for some of the Chief Executives of the Post Office.
Questions must be asked about links between Tory party donors and the Post Office, also the awarding of big bonuses and honours to people who lied and failed to do their job properly.
It is the Tory Government that is STILL awarding contracts to Fujitsu.But to the point above is it true that all Fujitsu contracts are signed off by a politician? I had imagined that in public procurement only the biggest / highest value items require the ‘minister’ level approvals. It is I thought civil servants approving many contracts ?
Public procurement requires a number of hoops and hurdles including due diligence of the bidding parties. I imagine Fujitsu have been careful to distinguish their involvement of delivering to agreed specifications and criteria versus the ‘business’ acceptance / approval and adoption of deliverables. It’s the corporate world we live in where outsourcing of elements blurs who is responsible. But accountability is surely with the Post Office management.
Not that I am averse to having a go at the Government as you know, but needs to be avoided here if we want to keep a valuable thread going.“Heaven help us” lol
And by and large i think people are in agreement that this is too important an issue to get bogged down in the usual politically-driven bullshit that we all know goes on.
But it seems some people just can't help themselves, and round we go again. 🤷🏻♂️4
