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Post Office Horizon scandal
Comments
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The problem I have with this, if it wasn't for a tv drama last week the travesty would still be on the back burner and no way would it have its own debating time in parliament today.
Also as the tv program was a drama, it can't really taken as the whole truth. Bits will have been changed and artistic licence applied, this may muddy the waters a little. You watch the PO and their lawyers take advantage of this. Like many others, I have been aware for many years that something was very wrong. You just don't get that amount of people in that type of job all doing the same crime. That should have triggered a proper investigation not a TV drama triggering MPs into a round of faux outrage. The sceptic in me says the government will be quite pleased to announce some help for the wronged after them announcing tax cuts, all singing from the same sheet on TV, twitter/X and being found out immediately they were being a bit deceitful.
This whole fiasco has dragged on for over 20 years with people dying, lives ruined and nothing anyone does now will rectify the damage caused. I can see this case carrying on for a bloody long time yet and I seriously doubt there will be any justice dished to the other side who knew all along there was something wrong.7 -
Compensation, IMHO, is not the priority issue here, albeit an important part of it. It's about justice, and justice being seen to be done. There are people out there who need stringing up for what they have done.
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charltonkeston said:The problem I have with this, if it wasn't for a tv drama last week the travesty would still be on the back burner and no way would it have its own debating time in parliament today.
Also as the tv program was a drama, it can't really taken as the whole truth. Bits will have been changed and artistic licence applied, this may muddy the waters a little. You watch the PO and their lawyers take advantage of this. Like many others, I have been aware for many years that something was very wrong. You just don't get that amount of people in that type of job all doing the same crime. That should have triggered a proper investigation not a TV drama triggering MPs into a round of faux outrage. The sceptic in me says the government will be quite pleased to announce some help for the wronged after them announcing tax cuts, all singing from the same sheet on TV, twitter/X and being found out immediately they were being a bit deceitful.
This whole fiasco has dragged on for over 20 years with people dying, lives ruined and nothing anyone does now will rectify the damage caused. I can see this case carrying on for a bloody long time yet and I seriously doubt there will be any justice dished to the other side who knew all along there was something wrong.This might also have an equal and opposite effect. I'm no legal expert but I thought the writers were a little bit clever with the caveat at the front of the programme stating 'Some scenes have been imagined' which leads you to make up your own mind and judging by the response, has had an effect. I also felt that any 'Panorama' type documentary on this subject would have been a legal minefield especially with the Post Office marking their own homework, which may be why producers kept away fromt it. It's certainly stirred the country up.0 -
One other subject which came out of this documentary was the Post Office's own judicial system which I believe is over 300 years old, and begs the question are there any others out there?
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Panorama, The Post Office Scandal, is available on iplayer and well worth a watch. I believe it aired in April 2022. It covers everything that was in the drama with additional information presented. I watched it last night and again was shocked at just what went on and I again learned more than I knew about this issue.man_at_milletts said:charltonkeston said:The problem I have with this, if it wasn't for a tv drama last week the travesty would still be on the back burner and no way would it have its own debating time in parliament today.
Also as the tv program was a drama, it can't really taken as the whole truth. Bits will have been changed and artistic licence applied, this may muddy the waters a little. You watch the PO and their lawyers take advantage of this. Like many others, I have been aware for many years that something was very wrong. You just don't get that amount of people in that type of job all doing the same crime. That should have triggered a proper investigation not a TV drama triggering MPs into a round of faux outrage. The sceptic in me says the government will be quite pleased to announce some help for the wronged after them announcing tax cuts, all singing from the same sheet on TV, twitter/X and being found out immediately they were being a bit deceitful.
This whole fiasco has dragged on for over 20 years with people dying, lives ruined and nothing anyone does now will rectify the damage caused. I can see this case carrying on for a bloody long time yet and I seriously doubt there will be any justice dished to the other side who knew all along there was something wrong.This might also have an equal and opposite effect. I'm no legal expert but I thought the writers were a little bit clever with the caveat at the front of the programme stating 'Some scenes have been imagined' which leads you to make up your own mind and judging by the response, has had an effect. I also felt that any 'Panorama' type documentary on this subject would have been a legal minefield especially with the Post Office marking their own homework, which may be why producers kept away fromt it. It's certainly stirred the country up.
Everyone involved in this from the Post Office, Fujitsu and the government should be questioned fully. I don't doubt that there is still much being covered up by those in control.7 -
You're right that there has been prosecutions from 2001 onwards but the Computer Weekly article wasn't published until 2009 and the campaign group started the same year. It didn't really start getting traction in the media and in Parliament until 2011/12.Fortune 82nd Minute said:
I don't want to keep going over old ground but anyone who thinks the blame for this scandal just rests with the current government is absolutely wrong.seriously_red said:
Just to add a few things from skimming this thread and two articles in the FT:ME14addick said:What bothers me is that Fujitsu seem to be untouchable. There are people who have held senior positions within the company, that have strong links to the Tory party, such as Tory major donor, Simon Blagdon and Michael Keegan, the husband of Gillian Keegan, the Education Secretary.
I hope the Met Police enquiries will lead to some prosecutions, but won't hold my breath.
The current Government will quickly settle the compensation claims as public opinion demands, then hope that the whole thing dies down and forget the real cause of the whole scandal.
It's not just 700 convictions but the Post Office pursued 3,500 through civil courts to claim back "missing" funds.
The Met is investigating on behalf of CPS covering perjury and perverting the course of justice. That's to say expert witnesses from either PO or Fujitsu may have lied in court or presented tainted evidence.
For those stating this might be an all party effort, I'd suggest that this scandal didn't break until 2008 or 2009. And that this is by far the only scandal that requires acceleration in compensation plus suitable inquiries:
Windrush
Grenfell
PPE VIP Lane procurement
all stink of late, ineffective action and links between people with influence whose actions require a strong light to shone upon them.
For me, only a change of government will speed things up.
You say the scandal never broke until 2008/9.That is just wrong. I stand to be corrected but I think the first prosecutions were around about 2001. By 2005 a steady stream of convictions were already happening and people should have been aware then that something was amiss.
And the first politician who realised that something was seriously wrong (and did something about it) was James Arbuthnot, a Conservative.
All the parties are to blame for this scandal. Don't let any of them off the hook by pretending it is all the Conservative party fault.6 -
In my opinion the "crime" happened when Labour were in control and the "cover up" with both coalition and subsequent Conservative governments. I'm using quotes as they are not the right terms but best describe it in my eyes. Not a single party comes out of this clean.Jints said:
You're right that there has been prosecutions from 2001 onwards but the Computer Weekly article wasn't published until 2009 and the campaign group started the same year. It didn't really start getting traction in the media and in Parliament until 2011/12.Fortune 82nd Minute said:
I don't want to keep going over old ground but anyone who thinks the blame for this scandal just rests with the current government is absolutely wrong.seriously_red said:
Just to add a few things from skimming this thread and two articles in the FT:ME14addick said:What bothers me is that Fujitsu seem to be untouchable. There are people who have held senior positions within the company, that have strong links to the Tory party, such as Tory major donor, Simon Blagdon and Michael Keegan, the husband of Gillian Keegan, the Education Secretary.
I hope the Met Police enquiries will lead to some prosecutions, but won't hold my breath.
The current Government will quickly settle the compensation claims as public opinion demands, then hope that the whole thing dies down and forget the real cause of the whole scandal.
It's not just 700 convictions but the Post Office pursued 3,500 through civil courts to claim back "missing" funds.
The Met is investigating on behalf of CPS covering perjury and perverting the course of justice. That's to say expert witnesses from either PO or Fujitsu may have lied in court or presented tainted evidence.
For those stating this might be an all party effort, I'd suggest that this scandal didn't break until 2008 or 2009. And that this is by far the only scandal that requires acceleration in compensation plus suitable inquiries:
Windrush
Grenfell
PPE VIP Lane procurement
all stink of late, ineffective action and links between people with influence whose actions require a strong light to shone upon them.
For me, only a change of government will speed things up.
You say the scandal never broke until 2008/9.That is just wrong. I stand to be corrected but I think the first prosecutions were around about 2001. By 2005 a steady stream of convictions were already happening and people should have been aware then that something was amiss.
And the first politician who realised that something was seriously wrong (and did something about it) was James Arbuthnot, a Conservative.
All the parties are to blame for this scandal. Don't let any of them off the hook by pretending it is all the Conservative party fault.5 -
Possibly but alarms bell should have been ringing in government long before 2010.Jints said:
You're right that there has been prosecutions from 2001 onwards but the Computer Weekly article wasn't published until 2009 and the campaign group started the same year. It didn't really start getting traction in the media and in Parliament until 2011/12.Fortune 82nd Minute said:
I don't want to keep going over old ground but anyone who thinks the blame for this scandal just rests with the current government is absolutely wrong.seriously_red said:
Just to add a few things from skimming this thread and two articles in the FT:ME14addick said:What bothers me is that Fujitsu seem to be untouchable. There are people who have held senior positions within the company, that have strong links to the Tory party, such as Tory major donor, Simon Blagdon and Michael Keegan, the husband of Gillian Keegan, the Education Secretary.
I hope the Met Police enquiries will lead to some prosecutions, but won't hold my breath.
The current Government will quickly settle the compensation claims as public opinion demands, then hope that the whole thing dies down and forget the real cause of the whole scandal.
It's not just 700 convictions but the Post Office pursued 3,500 through civil courts to claim back "missing" funds.
The Met is investigating on behalf of CPS covering perjury and perverting the course of justice. That's to say expert witnesses from either PO or Fujitsu may have lied in court or presented tainted evidence.
For those stating this might be an all party effort, I'd suggest that this scandal didn't break until 2008 or 2009. And that this is by far the only scandal that requires acceleration in compensation plus suitable inquiries:
Windrush
Grenfell
PPE VIP Lane procurement
all stink of late, ineffective action and links between people with influence whose actions require a strong light to shone upon them.
For me, only a change of government will speed things up.
You say the scandal never broke until 2008/9.That is just wrong. I stand to be corrected but I think the first prosecutions were around about 2001. By 2005 a steady stream of convictions were already happening and people should have been aware then that something was amiss.
And the first politician who realised that something was seriously wrong (and did something about it) was James Arbuthnot, a Conservative.
All the parties are to blame for this scandal. Don't let any of them off the hook by pretending it is all the Conservative party fault.
Indeed, the Sunday Times carried a huge piece on this yesterday which said "Alan Bates had been trying to raise concerns with the Labour government unsuccessfully until, in November 2009, he joined together with other victims to form the JFSA to prove their innocence".
But I do totally accept that it was in the early years of the coalition government that something should have been done. But lets not forget, the first 3 postal affairs ministers - Sir Ed Davey, Norman Lamb and Jo Swinson - were all very much Lib Dem politicians. And over this time, Sir Vince Cable - another Lib Dem - was the Business Secretary.
Believe me, I'm not excusing the Conservatives for not taking action quicker. But to put all the blame on them is not just appropriate in this case. It really isn't.
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The crime did happen at the time Labour were in power, but the Post Office was telling every postmaster that complained about the system 'nobody else is having problems, you're the only one to complain'. The Post Office was keeping it hidden all that time, so to blame the party in power at the time is wrong.Wilma said:
In my opinion the "crime" happened when Labour were in control and the "cover up" with both coalition and subsequent Conservative governments. I'm using quotes as they are not the right terms but best describe it in my eyes. Not a single party comes out of this clean.Jints said:
You're right that there has been prosecutions from 2001 onwards but the Computer Weekly article wasn't published until 2009 and the campaign group started the same year. It didn't really start getting traction in the media and in Parliament until 2011/12.Fortune 82nd Minute said:
I don't want to keep going over old ground but anyone who thinks the blame for this scandal just rests with the current government is absolutely wrong.seriously_red said:
Just to add a few things from skimming this thread and two articles in the FT:ME14addick said:What bothers me is that Fujitsu seem to be untouchable. There are people who have held senior positions within the company, that have strong links to the Tory party, such as Tory major donor, Simon Blagdon and Michael Keegan, the husband of Gillian Keegan, the Education Secretary.
I hope the Met Police enquiries will lead to some prosecutions, but won't hold my breath.
The current Government will quickly settle the compensation claims as public opinion demands, then hope that the whole thing dies down and forget the real cause of the whole scandal.
It's not just 700 convictions but the Post Office pursued 3,500 through civil courts to claim back "missing" funds.
The Met is investigating on behalf of CPS covering perjury and perverting the course of justice. That's to say expert witnesses from either PO or Fujitsu may have lied in court or presented tainted evidence.
For those stating this might be an all party effort, I'd suggest that this scandal didn't break until 2008 or 2009. And that this is by far the only scandal that requires acceleration in compensation plus suitable inquiries:
Windrush
Grenfell
PPE VIP Lane procurement
all stink of late, ineffective action and links between people with influence whose actions require a strong light to shone upon them.
For me, only a change of government will speed things up.
You say the scandal never broke until 2008/9.That is just wrong. I stand to be corrected but I think the first prosecutions were around about 2001. By 2005 a steady stream of convictions were already happening and people should have been aware then that something was amiss.
And the first politician who realised that something was seriously wrong (and did something about it) was James Arbuthnot, a Conservative.
All the parties are to blame for this scandal. Don't let any of them off the hook by pretending it is all the Conservative party fault.
It wasn't until 2009 that wider questions started to be asked and a year later Labour were no longer in power. The whole time that the Tories have been in power, the matter has been swept under the carpet and only now are they coming out of the woodwork to ask for something to be done. What needs to be urgently looked at is why they have continued to give Fijitsu new contracts.4 -
The Lib Dems were junior partners in the coalition Government, the major party could have done something if they thought that the Lib Dems were not doing their job properly. They didn't and have done very little since. Perhaps questions should be asked why the Lib Dems were given the role of Postal Minister, a stick with which to beat them perhaps.Fortune 82nd Minute said:
Possibly but alarms bell should have been ringing in government long before 2010.Jints said:
You're right that there has been prosecutions from 2001 onwards but the Computer Weekly article wasn't published until 2009 and the campaign group started the same year. It didn't really start getting traction in the media and in Parliament until 2011/12.Fortune 82nd Minute said:
I don't want to keep going over old ground but anyone who thinks the blame for this scandal just rests with the current government is absolutely wrong.seriously_red said:
Just to add a few things from skimming this thread and two articles in the FT:ME14addick said:What bothers me is that Fujitsu seem to be untouchable. There are people who have held senior positions within the company, that have strong links to the Tory party, such as Tory major donor, Simon Blagdon and Michael Keegan, the husband of Gillian Keegan, the Education Secretary.
I hope the Met Police enquiries will lead to some prosecutions, but won't hold my breath.
The current Government will quickly settle the compensation claims as public opinion demands, then hope that the whole thing dies down and forget the real cause of the whole scandal.
It's not just 700 convictions but the Post Office pursued 3,500 through civil courts to claim back "missing" funds.
The Met is investigating on behalf of CPS covering perjury and perverting the course of justice. That's to say expert witnesses from either PO or Fujitsu may have lied in court or presented tainted evidence.
For those stating this might be an all party effort, I'd suggest that this scandal didn't break until 2008 or 2009. And that this is by far the only scandal that requires acceleration in compensation plus suitable inquiries:
Windrush
Grenfell
PPE VIP Lane procurement
all stink of late, ineffective action and links between people with influence whose actions require a strong light to shone upon them.
For me, only a change of government will speed things up.
You say the scandal never broke until 2008/9.That is just wrong. I stand to be corrected but I think the first prosecutions were around about 2001. By 2005 a steady stream of convictions were already happening and people should have been aware then that something was amiss.
And the first politician who realised that something was seriously wrong (and did something about it) was James Arbuthnot, a Conservative.
All the parties are to blame for this scandal. Don't let any of them off the hook by pretending it is all the Conservative party fault.
Indeed, the Sunday Times carried a huge piece on this yesterday which said "Alan Bates had been trying to raise concerns with the Labour government unsuccessfully until, in November 2009, he joined together with other victims to form the JFSA to prove their innocence".
But I do totally accept that it was in the early years of the coalition government that something should have been done. But lets not forget, the first 3 postal affairs ministers - Sir Ed Davey, Norman Lamb and Jo Swinson - were all very much Lib Dem politicians. And over this time, Sir Vince Cable - another Lib Dem - was the Business Secretary.
Believe me, I'm not excusing the Conservatives for not taking action quicker. But to put all the blame on them is not just appropriate in this case. It really isn't.
I've always voted Tory, but have completely changed my views in the last 4 years as my eyes have been opened to the corruption at the heart of that party, so I'll never again vote for them. I cannot defend the indefensible.5 - Sponsored links:
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I think rather than a cover up the politicians from all sides didn't consider it something to shout about. And over the years there has been plenty of juicy topics they could grandstand on, helping the corner shop postie was not on their radar. The PO with effectively its own police were always seen as being on the side of right and very trust worthy so could not possibly be open to any questions.Wilma said:
In my opinion the "crime" happened when Labour were in control and the "cover up" with both coalition and subsequent Conservative governments. I'm using quotes as they are not the right terms but best describe it in my eyes. Not a single party comes out of this clean.Jints said:
You're right that there has been prosecutions from 2001 onwards but the Computer Weekly article wasn't published until 2009 and the campaign group started the same year. It didn't really start getting traction in the media and in Parliament until 2011/12.Fortune 82nd Minute said:
I don't want to keep going over old ground but anyone who thinks the blame for this scandal just rests with the current government is absolutely wrong.seriously_red said:
Just to add a few things from skimming this thread and two articles in the FT:ME14addick said:What bothers me is that Fujitsu seem to be untouchable. There are people who have held senior positions within the company, that have strong links to the Tory party, such as Tory major donor, Simon Blagdon and Michael Keegan, the husband of Gillian Keegan, the Education Secretary.
I hope the Met Police enquiries will lead to some prosecutions, but won't hold my breath.
The current Government will quickly settle the compensation claims as public opinion demands, then hope that the whole thing dies down and forget the real cause of the whole scandal.
It's not just 700 convictions but the Post Office pursued 3,500 through civil courts to claim back "missing" funds.
The Met is investigating on behalf of CPS covering perjury and perverting the course of justice. That's to say expert witnesses from either PO or Fujitsu may have lied in court or presented tainted evidence.
For those stating this might be an all party effort, I'd suggest that this scandal didn't break until 2008 or 2009. And that this is by far the only scandal that requires acceleration in compensation plus suitable inquiries:
Windrush
Grenfell
PPE VIP Lane procurement
all stink of late, ineffective action and links between people with influence whose actions require a strong light to shone upon them.
For me, only a change of government will speed things up.
You say the scandal never broke until 2008/9.That is just wrong. I stand to be corrected but I think the first prosecutions were around about 2001. By 2005 a steady stream of convictions were already happening and people should have been aware then that something was amiss.
And the first politician who realised that something was seriously wrong (and did something about it) was James Arbuthnot, a Conservative.
All the parties are to blame for this scandal. Don't let any of them off the hook by pretending it is all the Conservative party fault.5 -
I have been out this morning a bought a copy of Private Eye, will sit down and read it later.Algarveaddick said:For those saying this isn't a party political issue, you are correct. All three major parties have had the opportunity to do something, and failed. However, this is just the tip of a massive iceberg, as I keep pointing out - please read Private Eye, just buy a copy today and read it, from cover to cover (okay skip the "funny" bits if you wish) and see page after page of corruption, cronyism, people buying their way out of justice, buying their way into honours, into government contracts, into powerful positions... 90% involves tories in general, "old Etonians" or this government in particular.
No party is innocent, but one is far more culpable than others, and if it takes this to lift the lid on the whole sorry state of affairs, use it to change things. You don't need to justify your past political affiliations over things you didn't know about, but once the cat is out of the bag, and you do know what is happening, you need to question yourself if you continue to turn a blind eye.
I hope that this scandal will lift the lid on the corruption that is rife in this country. My eyes were opened 4 years ago and I no longer turn a blind eye to what has been going on for many years.4 -
Definately - Ed Davey has a lot of questions to answer (from what I've read Lamb conducted himself better).Fortune 82nd Minute said:
Possibly but alarms bell should have been ringing in government long before 2010.Jints said:
You're right that there has been prosecutions from 2001 onwards but the Computer Weekly article wasn't published until 2009 and the campaign group started the same year. It didn't really start getting traction in the media and in Parliament until 2011/12.Fortune 82nd Minute said:
I don't want to keep going over old ground but anyone who thinks the blame for this scandal just rests with the current government is absolutely wrong.seriously_red said:
Just to add a few things from skimming this thread and two articles in the FT:ME14addick said:What bothers me is that Fujitsu seem to be untouchable. There are people who have held senior positions within the company, that have strong links to the Tory party, such as Tory major donor, Simon Blagdon and Michael Keegan, the husband of Gillian Keegan, the Education Secretary.
I hope the Met Police enquiries will lead to some prosecutions, but won't hold my breath.
The current Government will quickly settle the compensation claims as public opinion demands, then hope that the whole thing dies down and forget the real cause of the whole scandal.
It's not just 700 convictions but the Post Office pursued 3,500 through civil courts to claim back "missing" funds.
The Met is investigating on behalf of CPS covering perjury and perverting the course of justice. That's to say expert witnesses from either PO or Fujitsu may have lied in court or presented tainted evidence.
For those stating this might be an all party effort, I'd suggest that this scandal didn't break until 2008 or 2009. And that this is by far the only scandal that requires acceleration in compensation plus suitable inquiries:
Windrush
Grenfell
PPE VIP Lane procurement
all stink of late, ineffective action and links between people with influence whose actions require a strong light to shone upon them.
For me, only a change of government will speed things up.
You say the scandal never broke until 2008/9.That is just wrong. I stand to be corrected but I think the first prosecutions were around about 2001. By 2005 a steady stream of convictions were already happening and people should have been aware then that something was amiss.
And the first politician who realised that something was seriously wrong (and did something about it) was James Arbuthnot, a Conservative.
All the parties are to blame for this scandal. Don't let any of them off the hook by pretending it is all the Conservative party fault.
Indeed, the Sunday Times carried a huge piece on this yesterday which said "Alan Bates had been trying to raise concerns with the Labour government unsuccessfully until, in November 2009, he joined together with other victims to form the JFSA to prove their innocence".
But I do totally accept that it was in the early years of the coalition government that something should have been done. But lets not forget, the first 3 postal affairs ministers - Sir Ed Davey, Norman Lamb and Jo Swinson - were all very much Lib Dem politicians. And over this time, Sir Vince Cable - another Lib Dem - was the Business Secretary.
Believe me, I'm not excusing the Conservatives for not taking action quicker. But to put all the blame on them is not just appropriate in this case. It really isn't.0 -
Swept under the carpet?ME14addick said:
The crime did happen at the time Labour were in power, but the Post Office was telling every postmaster that complained about the system 'nobody else is having problems, you're the only one to complain'. The Post Office was keeping it hidden all that time, so to blame the party in power at the time is wrong.Wilma said:
In my opinion the "crime" happened when Labour were in control and the "cover up" with both coalition and subsequent Conservative governments. I'm using quotes as they are not the right terms but best describe it in my eyes. Not a single party comes out of this clean.Jints said:
You're right that there has been prosecutions from 2001 onwards but the Computer Weekly article wasn't published until 2009 and the campaign group started the same year. It didn't really start getting traction in the media and in Parliament until 2011/12.Fortune 82nd Minute said:
I don't want to keep going over old ground but anyone who thinks the blame for this scandal just rests with the current government is absolutely wrong.seriously_red said:
Just to add a few things from skimming this thread and two articles in the FT:ME14addick said:What bothers me is that Fujitsu seem to be untouchable. There are people who have held senior positions within the company, that have strong links to the Tory party, such as Tory major donor, Simon Blagdon and Michael Keegan, the husband of Gillian Keegan, the Education Secretary.
I hope the Met Police enquiries will lead to some prosecutions, but won't hold my breath.
The current Government will quickly settle the compensation claims as public opinion demands, then hope that the whole thing dies down and forget the real cause of the whole scandal.
It's not just 700 convictions but the Post Office pursued 3,500 through civil courts to claim back "missing" funds.
The Met is investigating on behalf of CPS covering perjury and perverting the course of justice. That's to say expert witnesses from either PO or Fujitsu may have lied in court or presented tainted evidence.
For those stating this might be an all party effort, I'd suggest that this scandal didn't break until 2008 or 2009. And that this is by far the only scandal that requires acceleration in compensation plus suitable inquiries:
Windrush
Grenfell
PPE VIP Lane procurement
all stink of late, ineffective action and links between people with influence whose actions require a strong light to shone upon them.
For me, only a change of government will speed things up.
You say the scandal never broke until 2008/9.That is just wrong. I stand to be corrected but I think the first prosecutions were around about 2001. By 2005 a steady stream of convictions were already happening and people should have been aware then that something was amiss.
And the first politician who realised that something was seriously wrong (and did something about it) was James Arbuthnot, a Conservative.
All the parties are to blame for this scandal. Don't let any of them off the hook by pretending it is all the Conservative party fault.
It wasn't until 2009 that wider questions started to be asked and a year later Labour were no longer in power. The whole time that the Tories have been in power, the matter has been swept under the carpet and only now are they coming out of the woodwork to ask for something to be done. What needs to be urgently looked at is why they have continued to give Fijitsu new contracts.
James Arbuthnot was doing nothing then?
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Individual MPs may have been doing something and Sir James Arbuthnot's work was crucial in getting the scandal out in the open, however the Government as a whole has been woeful in dealing with it. Too many times they believed the assurances of the Post Office and didn't properly investigate. It is 2024 and they came to power in 2010 so have had plenty of time to properly deal with it. They gave Paula Vennells a CBE when she left the Post Office and subsequently appointed her to the Cabinet Office. They continue to give contracts to Fujitsu. The Government is culpable for the scandal dragging on for so long.clb74 said:
Swept under the carpet?ME14addick said:
The crime did happen at the time Labour were in power, but the Post Office was telling every postmaster that complained about the system 'nobody else is having problems, you're the only one to complain'. The Post Office was keeping it hidden all that time, so to blame the party in power at the time is wrong.Wilma said:
In my opinion the "crime" happened when Labour were in control and the "cover up" with both coalition and subsequent Conservative governments. I'm using quotes as they are not the right terms but best describe it in my eyes. Not a single party comes out of this clean.Jints said:
You're right that there has been prosecutions from 2001 onwards but the Computer Weekly article wasn't published until 2009 and the campaign group started the same year. It didn't really start getting traction in the media and in Parliament until 2011/12.Fortune 82nd Minute said:
I don't want to keep going over old ground but anyone who thinks the blame for this scandal just rests with the current government is absolutely wrong.seriously_red said:
Just to add a few things from skimming this thread and two articles in the FT:ME14addick said:What bothers me is that Fujitsu seem to be untouchable. There are people who have held senior positions within the company, that have strong links to the Tory party, such as Tory major donor, Simon Blagdon and Michael Keegan, the husband of Gillian Keegan, the Education Secretary.
I hope the Met Police enquiries will lead to some prosecutions, but won't hold my breath.
The current Government will quickly settle the compensation claims as public opinion demands, then hope that the whole thing dies down and forget the real cause of the whole scandal.
It's not just 700 convictions but the Post Office pursued 3,500 through civil courts to claim back "missing" funds.
The Met is investigating on behalf of CPS covering perjury and perverting the course of justice. That's to say expert witnesses from either PO or Fujitsu may have lied in court or presented tainted evidence.
For those stating this might be an all party effort, I'd suggest that this scandal didn't break until 2008 or 2009. And that this is by far the only scandal that requires acceleration in compensation plus suitable inquiries:
Windrush
Grenfell
PPE VIP Lane procurement
all stink of late, ineffective action and links between people with influence whose actions require a strong light to shone upon them.
For me, only a change of government will speed things up.
You say the scandal never broke until 2008/9.That is just wrong. I stand to be corrected but I think the first prosecutions were around about 2001. By 2005 a steady stream of convictions were already happening and people should have been aware then that something was amiss.
And the first politician who realised that something was seriously wrong (and did something about it) was James Arbuthnot, a Conservative.
All the parties are to blame for this scandal. Don't let any of them off the hook by pretending it is all the Conservative party fault.
It wasn't until 2009 that wider questions started to be asked and a year later Labour were no longer in power. The whole time that the Tories have been in power, the matter has been swept under the carpet and only now are they coming out of the woodwork to ask for something to be done. What needs to be urgently looked at is why they have continued to give Fijitsu new contracts.
James Arbuthnot was doing nothing then?2 -
The following link is a transcript of the HOC debate on 19 March 2020, brought by Kevan Jones Labour MP for North Durham. He sits on the Horizon Compensation Board.
It is a long piece, but well worth reading and does bring out the frustration of individual MPs at the Government's inaction.
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2020-03-19a.1224.0
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What I don’t understand is, before Horizon, the PO would have known the level of fraud amongst their postmasters, no one seems to to have questioned the “increase” of fraud after the introduction of the new software. Unless they thought they were all a robbing bunch and this was the real level.15
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Step up the UK military 🫵man_at_milletts said:One other subject which came out of this documentary was the Post Office's own judicial system which I believe is over 300 years old, and begs the question are there any others out there?2 -
I was coming on here to say something similar.guinnessaddick said:What I don’t understand is, before Horizon, the PO would have known the level of fraud amongst their postmasters, no one seems to to have questioned the “increase” of fraud after the introduction of the new software. Unless they thought they were all a robbing bunch and this was the real level.
Surely the PO staff who "investigated" these losses must have said to themselves..." there seems to be rather a large increase in fraud cases, and they are all blaming this new system". Did no one say anything ? How many of these "fraud teams" were there ? No doubt this was covered up from a higher level but did no-one lower down say anything or whistleblow ? (Apart from the Fujitsu chap). Or were PO staff all jobsworths and just got on with it. Seems very puzzling to me how so many cases were just proceeded upon based on the premise that "the computer says so".
Most strange.6 - Sponsored links:
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Were other sub post masters being gifted large sums by the Horizon software or were the 'mistakes' only happening one way?2
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One of the things I find interesting in this kind of corporate scandal (and indeed more generally) is how easy it seems to be for normal people to fall in line with group think. I guess if you aren't an IT expert and someone who is tells you and everyone else that the system is infallable, what do you do?golfaddick said:
I was coming on here to say something similar.guinnessaddick said:What I don’t understand is, before Horizon, the PO would have known the level of fraud amongst their postmasters, no one seems to to have questioned the “increase” of fraud after the introduction of the new software. Unless they thought they were all a robbing bunch and this was the real level.
Surely the PO staff who "investigated" these losses must have said to themselves..." there seems to be rather a large increase in fraud cases, and they are all blaming this new system". Did no one say anything ? How many of these "fraud teams" were there ? No doubt this was covered up from a higher level but did no-one lower down say anything or whistleblow ? (Apart from the Fujitsu chap). Or were PO staff all jobsworths and just got on with it. Seems very puzzling to me how so many cases were just proceeded upon based on the premise that "the computer says so".
Most strange.8 -
Just listened to Nick Wallis being interviewed by Sky News, he was very sceptical about the speed that Rishi Sunak has jumped on the bandwagon. Also very critical of the lack of action from the Government up to now and the awarding of the CBE to Paula Vennells and her subsequent appointment to the Cabinet Office.
He worked with the producers of Mr Bates v The Post Office and is author of The Great Post Office Scandal.
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I've been working on the PC today and just out interest I kept this site open and freshed it every 10 minutes or so and it increased on average by 1500 signatures each time.
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I think before the new system came in the postmasters had to send off paper accounts which may or may not have been checked in any detail - maybe spot checks or annual audits, etc. But the new system provided real time accounting - or at least that was the plan - which in theory makes it easier to spot / eradicate fraud.guinnessaddick said:What I don’t understand is, before Horizon, the PO would have known the level of fraud amongst their postmasters, no one seems to to have questioned the “increase” of fraud after the introduction of the new software. Unless they thought they were all a robbing bunch and this was the real level.
So they probably expected to see a sharp rise in possible frauds being detected ....... but surely that much of an increase was seen as abnormal? My understanding is that the internal PO fraud/prosecution team couldn't cope with the increased levels in case load so they outsourced it all to a third party.
Surely someone at a senior level knew that prosecutions had gone through the roof? And surely someone at a senior level knew the computer system was being fingered as the culprit in at least SOME of the cases?
What's also clear is that the number of prosecutions fell off a cliff at some point - they literally just stopped taking cases. Was that because suddenly everything was fixed, or was it because someone got wind of the two points above and decided to turn off the tap. In which case, surely there was a suspicion that some of the previous cases were unsound? And yet they did nothing.
Making mistakes isn't great, but it happens. Trying to cover up those mistakes and lie your way out of it is criminal.6 -
I followed this at the time, but also topped up on the BBC podcast series last year . Pretty sure she joined when the project was well on its way, even "well established". She may well deserve to be accountable for her actions/inactions but will not be the only one and to me should be accompanied by others several others into the "court" of public opinion. Or even better a real court.PragueAddick said:Great post and thread -starter @ME14addick .
For those not already aware of it, there is a petition to strip Paula Vennells of her CBE. Alan Bates has been awarded an OBE, but refuses to accept it until Vennells is stripped of hers. I just checked in on it having signed it last week when it was at 30k. It has now reached 882,000!!. So clearly the goal must be to reach a million, that makes a strong political statement.
All that said, this is just the start. IMO. She and, importantly, all the key senior management involved with Horizon should be investigated with a view to criminal charges. There is a full Public Inquiry underway now, 14 years after Alan Bates demanded it, and that will facilitate such charges. Not least because the Met Police have apparently already started an investigation for potential fraud, but left to their own devices I wouldn't currently trust them to crack it. And I'm not sure that fraud is the only possible charge, but I'm not a lawyer.
Speaking of lawyers the FT published a very good article a week ago shedding light on the lawyers involved on both sides. Something of interest for @Jints among others.3 -
They stopped the prosecutions as the legal advice changed to say that the cases weren't strong, this is explained in the Panorama programme. They still had hundreds in the pipeline.Off_it said:
I think before the new system came in the postmasters had to send off paper accounts which may or may not have been checked in any detail - maybe spot checks or annual audits, etc. But the new system provided real time accounting - or at least that was the plan - which in theory makes it easier to spot / eradicate fraud.guinnessaddick said:What I don’t understand is, before Horizon, the PO would have known the level of fraud amongst their postmasters, no one seems to to have questioned the “increase” of fraud after the introduction of the new software. Unless they thought they were all a robbing bunch and this was the real level.
So they probably expected to see a sharp rise in possible frauds being detected ....... but surely that much of an increase was seen as abnormal? My understanding is that the internal PO fraud/prosecution team couldn't cope with the increased levels in case load so they outsourced it all to a third party.
Surely someone at a senior level knew that prosecutions had gone through the roof? And surely someone at a senior level knew the computer system was being fingered as the culprit in at least SOME of the cases?
What's also clear is that the number of prosecutions fell off a cliff at some point - they literally just stopped taking cases. Was that because suddenly everything was fixed, or was it because someone got wind of the two points above and decided to turn off the tap. In which case, surely there was a suspicion that some of the previous cases were unsound? And yet they did nothing.
Making mistakes isn't great, but it happens. Trying to cover up those mistakes and lie your way out of it is criminal.2 -
All the compensation paid has been largely swallowed up by lawyers as this is a very complicated case. So even those who have received compensation are largely"out of pocket".man_at_milletts said:Compensation, IMHO, is not the priority issue here, albeit an important part of it. It's about justice, and justice being seen to be done. There are people out there who need stringing up for what they have done.
The case(s) to be answered are for those who directed the prosecutions from within the Post Office, especially after flaws in the Horizon. system were apparent. Those who denied /withheld the fact that many postmasters were having the same problem, kept them isolated and "in the dark",.
This is most definitely where the money is the most important aspect (now). The postmasters are clearly innocent and now need compensation for around 20 years of wrecked lives.
I would also add this has hit the headlines due to TV but in the Autumn last year the biggest scandal of the NHS EVER has not received the same attention. This is the contaminated blood scandal where patients with haemophilia were given clotting factor by NHS doctors derived from American drug abusers/prisoners and caught hepatitis, AIDs, and many, many died young, leaving young families and widows.
Currently the UK government is delaying payments to these families as the numbers and size of compensation s SO large it will make a massive whole in the budgets. The last independent review recommended a minimum of £50,000 to be immediately paid as a downpayment, I don't think this has happened. A detailed BBC programme on this topic
Stories of Our Time- Death in the Blood: One of the most shocking scandal in the NHS history4 -
I feel sick just watching the drama as I have heard the shocking stories over the last decade.
Don't care about anyone on here trying to score political points. All parties were to blame as this first started in 1999 and the Post office started to implement the NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE horizon accounting system.
Just this morning I heard about more shocking stories on the Nicky Campbell phone in.
Pleased to say there are good MP's, Tory and Labour helping over the last few years.
The post office challenge every case even now under the present incumbent boss.
The evil bastard's who covered this up and ruined 700+ lives and their families have to be prosecuted not just give back a medal for incompetence.
"You're the only one"
Utter lying scum.5 -
I'd strongly recommend watching Panorama's reporting on this - https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0016t20/panorama-the-post-office-scandal
One point in particular sticks out, and that is that the government was looking to sell the Post Office at the time. That would have been much harder, or even impossible, if the Post Office acknowledged in any way that their accounting systems were wildly inaccurate.
It should go without saying that Fujitsu, the Post Office and the government need to be held criminally accountable for this disgusting episode. I'd be willing to bet that nobody is though.14
