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Post Office Horizon scandal

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    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/jan/07/post-office-suspected-of-more-wrongful-prosecutions-of-operators-over-horizon

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/jan/08/post-office-horizon-scandal-petition-cbe-paula-vennells

    One thing that did stand out for me is that the Met Police has been looking into potential offences of perjury and perverting the course of justice in relation to investigations and prosecutions carried out by the Post Office. Only two people have been interviewed under caution, but nobody has been arrested since the investigation was launched in January 2020.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/21/post-office-almost-halves-amount-set-aside-for-horizon-it-scandal-compensation

    The above article gives details of some of the Post Office's finances and how much has been set aside for compensation. 



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    Kap10 said:
    buckshee said:
    Seen the usual Tory bashing regarding this bit was it not a Labour government in charge at the time?
    Yes, questions to be asked of both parties.
    100% they are both culpable 
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    buckshee said:
    Kap10 said:
    buckshee said:
    Seen the usual Tory bashing regarding this bit was it not a Labour government in charge at the time?
    Yes, questions to be asked of both parties.
    100% they are both culpable 
    All three!
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    As an ex employee of the Post Office nothing surprised me in the drama. After 28 years service I was treated badly. I had to take them to an employment tribunal , I won my case but it has left long lasting scars.
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    buckshee said:
    Kap10 said:
    buckshee said:
    Seen the usual Tory bashing regarding this bit was it not a Labour government in charge at the time?
    Yes, questions to be asked of both parties.
    100% they are both culpable 
    Tory MP and Deputy Chairman Lee Anderson using his GBnews platform to lay the blame a Ed Davey’s door  ;)
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    My mum was a sub-postmistress and often stressing over balancing the books. 
    Fortunately was liable for thousands but certainly paid back money. 

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    IT_Andy said:
    My mum was a sub-postmistress and often stressing over balancing the books. 
    Fortunately was liable for thousands but certainly paid back money. 

    tell us more if you can .. was she involved in this particular clusterfuck and is she due for compensation ? .. I hope she didn't end up in Holloway, excuse the jest
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    This link gives a good overview of the earlier written and tv coverage of the Horizon scandal. It's had quite a lot tbh but only now seems to have got the traction it deserves. 

    https://www.postofficetrial.com/2020/06/credit-where-due.html?m=1

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    Whilst doing some research on the case this afternoon, I tried to find out who recommended that PV be granted a CBE. All I could find was that a FOI request has been made, but that takes time, so we may not not know for a while. 

    I agree that the honours system is being abused, it needs reform, as does The House of Lords. 
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    Whilst doing some research on the case this afternoon, I tried to find out who recommended that PV be granted a CBE. All I could find was that a FOI request has been made, but that takes time, so we may not not know for a while. 

    I agree that the honours system is being abused, it needs reform, as does The House of Lords. 
    I think the case is out the bag now.

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    edited January 9
    Kap10 said:
    This is a great podcast - it was made by an old colleague of mine, Nick Wallis, who was one of the few journalists on the case of this years ago (along with Richard Brooks at Private Eye and Rebecca Thompson at Computer Weekly). He was doing a freelance shift at a local BBC station in Surrey when one of the families got in touch and he stuck with the story from there. 

    He also wrote a book about it: https://amzn.to/4aRvJMo 

    Haven't seen the drama yet, but the impact it's had has been amazing.
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    Just watched it. Well worth your time. It's not about party political blame but not questioning stuff. Alan Bates must be a right pain in the backside but you want someone with that stubborn streak in your  corner. 
    I worked for Fujitsu at Footscray in the early 2000s. Not in the Horizon contract I might add. It was something they were very proud of. I  have to say in the part I worked (supporting local govt )there would have been no tolerance of updating live systems while people were working on them . That was the most shocking but for me. It's something you'd never do. 

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    Quite a good article on those with questions to answer. Being a typical right wing rag though Rishi Sunak and all the other Tories have somehow avoided criticism. Typical client journalists. 

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/08/paula-vennells-to-ed-davey-the-people-with-questions-to-answer-on-the-post-office-scandal
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    To be fair to the Posy Office sometimes false accounting is waived through as an honest error

    https://youtu.be/CQzrB3kuqck?si=1zUH6CKVqVExLOOx

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    clb74 said:
    Whilst doing some research on the case this afternoon, I tried to find out who recommended that PV be granted a CBE. All I could find was that a FOI request has been made, but that takes time, so we may not not know for a while. 

    I agree that the honours system is being abused, it needs reform, as does The House of Lords. 
    I think the case is out the bag now.

    Is it, I can't find out who it was that awarded her the CBE for services to the Post Office and charity? If you know who it was, please can you let us all know. That person or body has a lot to answer for, as does the person who appointed her as Chair of the Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust on leaving the Post Office.
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    Huskaris said:
    Quite a good article on those with questions to answer. Being a typical right wing rag though Rishi Sunak and all the other Tories have somehow avoided criticism. Typical client journalists. 

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/08/paula-vennells-to-ed-davey-the-people-with-questions-to-answer-on-the-post-office-scandal
    There are questions to be asked of many people, but the fact is that only one political party has been in power for the whole of the period from 2010, and that is the Conservatives. 

    It is only now that the Government is doing something with any urgency, they have had plenty of time to put in place measures to quash the convictions of everyone wrongly accused by the Post Office, but it has taken a drama to push them into action. Compensation claims have been slow to settle.

    Last year, I remember hearing a Tory minister, can't remember who, talking about the £600K compensation award and using the words, 'take it or leave it', that shows no compassion at all. £600K may sound a lot to ordinary people, but it represents about a year's salary for some of the Chief Executives of the Post Office.

    Questions must be asked about links between Tory party donors and the Post Office, also the awarding of big bonuses and honours to people who lied and failed to do their job properly.

    It is the Tory Government that is STILL awarding contracts to Fujitsu.
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    I briefly worked for Fujitsu in Warrington. It was a horrible place to work - dreadful environment with a bunch of nasty old sh*thouses. I wasn't on public sector, I did firewall design and support for the private sector. They charged eye watering amounts for the most basic ruleset changes - dread to think how badly the public sector got ripped off. Lasted two months before I quit. 

    A similar experience about 2007/8. I was put forward for a helpdesk role with Fujitsu at Sidcup. Even the agency were subtly warning me not to touch it with a bargepole.  The only questioning I got on my skillset was when can you start? Needless to say....
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    Huskaris said:
    Quite a good article on those with questions to answer. Being a typical right wing rag though Rishi Sunak and all the other Tories have somehow avoided criticism. Typical client journalists. 

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/08/paula-vennells-to-ed-davey-the-people-with-questions-to-answer-on-the-post-office-scandal
    There are questions to be asked of many people, but the fact is that only one political party has been in power for the whole of the period from 2010, and that is the Conservatives. 

    It is only now that the Government is doing something with any urgency, they have had plenty of time to put in place measures to quash the convictions of everyone wrongly accused by the Post Office, but it has taken a drama to push them into action. Compensation claims have been slow to settle.

    Last year, I remember hearing a Tory minister, can't remember who, talking about the £600K compensation award and using the words, 'take it or leave it', that shows no compassion at all. £600K may sound a lot to ordinary people, but it represents about a year's salary for some of the Chief Executives of the Post Office.

    Questions must be asked about links between Tory party donors and the Post Office, also the awarding of big bonuses and honours to people who lied and failed to do their job properly.

    It is the Tory Government that is STILL awarding contracts to Fujitsu.
    You are determined to make this political when everyone seems in agreement this is a shocking situation that has taken too long to rectify. 

    But to the point above is it true that all Fujitsu contracts are signed off by a politician? I had imagined that in public procurement only the biggest / highest value items require the ‘minister’ level approvals. It is I thought civil servants approving many contracts ?

    Public procurement requires a number of hoops and hurdles including due diligence of the bidding parties. I imagine Fujitsu have been careful to distinguish their involvement of delivering to agreed specifications and criteria versus the ‘business’ acceptance / approval and adoption of deliverables. It’s the corporate world we live in where outsourcing of elements blurs who is responsible.  But accountability is surely with the Post Office management. 
    Have you read Private Eye Nick? Under this government some contracts (especially since they got away with using covid to change the rules) undergo very little scrutiny.    
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    clb74 said:
    Whilst doing some research on the case this afternoon, I tried to find out who recommended that PV be granted a CBE. All I could find was that a FOI request has been made, but that takes time, so we may not not know for a while. 

    I agree that the honours system is being abused, it needs reform, as does The House of Lords. 
    I think the case is out the bag now.

    Is it, I can't find out who it was that awarded her the CBE for services to the Post Office and charity? If you know who it was, please can you let us all know. That person or body has a lot to answer for, as does the person who appointed her as Chair of the Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust on leaving the Post Office.
    Lots of issues need addressing and I'm sure the CBE will be looked at but I think this is another example of side tracking the really important bits, compensate and exonerate all those who have been wronged. 
    The hundreds of people who have been falsely accused are not the only victims, their families and no doubt some of their friends have also had their lives ruined by this scandal. God only knows how the powers that be can clear this mess up but I'm sure if they get they the honours committee to take a few gongs and titles back there will be a collective backslapping before moving on to the next outrage.
    As for moving from an NHS trust from the Post Office, amazing. Her talents like so many more like her, know no bounds. If only we could bottle these super talents.   
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    clb74 said:
    Whilst doing some research on the case this afternoon, I tried to find out who recommended that PV be granted a CBE. All I could find was that a FOI request has been made, but that takes time, so we may not not know for a while. 

    I agree that the honours system is being abused, it needs reform, as does The House of Lords. 
    I think the case is out the bag now.

    Is it, I can't find out who it was that awarded her the CBE for services to the Post Office and charity? If you know who it was, please can you let us all know. That person or body has a lot to answer for, as does the person who appointed her as Chair of the Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust on leaving the Post Office.
    In his Newsnight interview last night, it seems the name of the CBE recommender is one of the main questions Alan Bates would like an answer to. He also suggested that Ed Davey is no more complicit in all of this than many others. Not that even that will stop the the desperado Tories (example front page of today’s Daily Mail) trying to shift the blame in his direction.
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    Huskaris said:
    Quite a good article on those with questions to answer. Being a typical right wing rag though Rishi Sunak and all the other Tories have somehow avoided criticism. Typical client journalists. 

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/08/paula-vennells-to-ed-davey-the-people-with-questions-to-answer-on-the-post-office-scandal
    There are questions to be asked of many people, but the fact is that only one political party has been in power for the whole of the period from 2010, and that is the Conservatives. 

    It is only now that the Government is doing something with any urgency, they have had plenty of time to put in place measures to quash the convictions of everyone wrongly accused by the Post Office, but it has taken a drama to push them into action. Compensation claims have been slow to settle.

    Last year, I remember hearing a Tory minister, can't remember who, talking about the £600K compensation award and using the words, 'take it or leave it', that shows no compassion at all. £600K may sound a lot to ordinary people, but it represents about a year's salary for some of the Chief Executives of the Post Office.

    Questions must be asked about links between Tory party donors and the Post Office, also the awarding of big bonuses and honours to people who lied and failed to do their job properly.

    It is the Tory Government that is STILL awarding contracts to Fujitsu.
    You are determined to make this political when everyone seems in agreement this is a shocking situation that has taken too long to rectify. 

    But to the point above is it true that all Fujitsu contracts are signed off by a politician? I had imagined that in public procurement only the biggest / highest value items require the ‘minister’ level approvals. It is I thought civil servants approving many contracts ?

    Public procurement requires a number of hoops and hurdles including due diligence of the bidding parties. I imagine Fujitsu have been careful to distinguish their involvement of delivering to agreed specifications and criteria versus the ‘business’ acceptance / approval and adoption of deliverables. It’s the corporate world we live in where outsourcing of elements blurs who is responsible.  But accountability is surely with the Post Office management. 
    Have you read Private Eye Nick? Under this government some contracts (especially since they got away with using covid to change the rules) undergo very little scrutiny.    
    Agreed mate ... but some posts on here are drifting towards pure Tory-bashing which may lead to this thread being shut down.

    Not that I am averse to having a go at the Government as you know, but needs to be avoided here if we want to keep a valuable thread going. 

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    stonemuse said:
    Huskaris said:
    Quite a good article on those with questions to answer. Being a typical right wing rag though Rishi Sunak and all the other Tories have somehow avoided criticism. Typical client journalists. 

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/08/paula-vennells-to-ed-davey-the-people-with-questions-to-answer-on-the-post-office-scandal
    There are questions to be asked of many people, but the fact is that only one political party has been in power for the whole of the period from 2010, and that is the Conservatives. 

    It is only now that the Government is doing something with any urgency, they have had plenty of time to put in place measures to quash the convictions of everyone wrongly accused by the Post Office, but it has taken a drama to push them into action. Compensation claims have been slow to settle.

    Last year, I remember hearing a Tory minister, can't remember who, talking about the £600K compensation award and using the words, 'take it or leave it', that shows no compassion at all. £600K may sound a lot to ordinary people, but it represents about a year's salary for some of the Chief Executives of the Post Office.

    Questions must be asked about links between Tory party donors and the Post Office, also the awarding of big bonuses and honours to people who lied and failed to do their job properly.

    It is the Tory Government that is STILL awarding contracts to Fujitsu.
    You are determined to make this political when everyone seems in agreement this is a shocking situation that has taken too long to rectify. 

    But to the point above is it true that all Fujitsu contracts are signed off by a politician? I had imagined that in public procurement only the biggest / highest value items require the ‘minister’ level approvals. It is I thought civil servants approving many contracts ?

    Public procurement requires a number of hoops and hurdles including due diligence of the bidding parties. I imagine Fujitsu have been careful to distinguish their involvement of delivering to agreed specifications and criteria versus the ‘business’ acceptance / approval and adoption of deliverables. It’s the corporate world we live in where outsourcing of elements blurs who is responsible.  But accountability is surely with the Post Office management. 
    Have you read Private Eye Nick? Under this government some contracts (especially since they got away with using covid to change the rules) undergo very little scrutiny.    
    Agreed mate ... but some posts on here are drifting towards pure Tory-bashing which may lead to this thread being shut down.

    Not that I am averse to having a go at the Government as you know, but needs to be avoided here if we want to keep a valuable thread going. 

    I think the key point here is that when people in power think they are untouchable, they will try all sorts. That applies to all parties - Private Eye's Rotten Boroughs column will give you chapter and verse on all that. 
    Absolutely, I'm a regular reader
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    stonemuse said:
    Huskaris said:
    Quite a good article on those with questions to answer. Being a typical right wing rag though Rishi Sunak and all the other Tories have somehow avoided criticism. Typical client journalists. 

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/08/paula-vennells-to-ed-davey-the-people-with-questions-to-answer-on-the-post-office-scandal
    There are questions to be asked of many people, but the fact is that only one political party has been in power for the whole of the period from 2010, and that is the Conservatives. 

    It is only now that the Government is doing something with any urgency, they have had plenty of time to put in place measures to quash the convictions of everyone wrongly accused by the Post Office, but it has taken a drama to push them into action. Compensation claims have been slow to settle.

    Last year, I remember hearing a Tory minister, can't remember who, talking about the £600K compensation award and using the words, 'take it or leave it', that shows no compassion at all. £600K may sound a lot to ordinary people, but it represents about a year's salary for some of the Chief Executives of the Post Office.

    Questions must be asked about links between Tory party donors and the Post Office, also the awarding of big bonuses and honours to people who lied and failed to do their job properly.

    It is the Tory Government that is STILL awarding contracts to Fujitsu.
    You are determined to make this political when everyone seems in agreement this is a shocking situation that has taken too long to rectify. 

    But to the point above is it true that all Fujitsu contracts are signed off by a politician? I had imagined that in public procurement only the biggest / highest value items require the ‘minister’ level approvals. It is I thought civil servants approving many contracts ?

    Public procurement requires a number of hoops and hurdles including due diligence of the bidding parties. I imagine Fujitsu have been careful to distinguish their involvement of delivering to agreed specifications and criteria versus the ‘business’ acceptance / approval and adoption of deliverables. It’s the corporate world we live in where outsourcing of elements blurs who is responsible.  But accountability is surely with the Post Office management. 
    Have you read Private Eye Nick? Under this government some contracts (especially since they got away with using covid to change the rules) undergo very little scrutiny.    
    Agreed mate ... but some posts on here are drifting towards pure Tory-bashing which may lead to this thread being shut down.

    Not that I am averse to having a go at the Government as you know, but needs to be avoided here if we want to keep a valuable thread going. 

    This seems to suggest that you cannot criticise the "government" because it suggests political bias if you do so. Heaven help us!
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