I have followed most of the Radio 4 content. What I don't understand is, with the number of 700+ sub-postmasters prosecuted, why no one questioned the probability of that number of postmasters being on the fiddle, against the probability of faults with a new IT system, where there are a proven track records across many industries of serious faults as these systems go online. Didn't the investigators prosecuting the sub-postmasters consider this fact, or was that just too inconvenient? Whilst it would be good if those responsible were prosecuted and a certain companiy banned from further contacts, this will never happen. Politicians will close ranks. The police won't want to upset the government incase the Chief Cuntstable doesn't get his knighthood. Post Office managers will dissappear into other industries or the church and claim they knew nothing. Government ties to the IT company will be too strong to break ranks. Solving this is way too deep in the 'too difficult' box. Big inquiries are a complete waste of time, imo. Does anyone expect that the persons ultimately responsible for Grenfell, partygate and the ongoing covid enquiry, to name three, will be sanctioned, prosecuted and fined appropriately or jailed? Slapped wrists and a day on the naughty step is as much as can be expected. And then compensated for the inconvenience suffered with a highly paid consultancy role, public award, senior political position, or all three. No interest previously from our largely right wing mass media to undertake proper investigate journalism to establish the facts, incase it inconveniences the Tories. And this enables a hold over them. And no pressure on the Post Office to settle claims in a timely manner. I'm expecting to see claimants still awaiting compensation in ten years. Once the fuss from the TV documentary has died down, obstructions will return, and the claimants will be forgotten again. Today, Sunak, the scum who we are unfortunate to have as our Prime Minister, jumped on the populist bandwagon in support of the sub-postmasters, in a vain attempt to gain popularity. Yesterday he didn’t give a fuck regarding their plight.
Not just Sunak. True of all parties.
Ed Davey refused to meet Alan Bates back in 2010 and has been trying to justify himself in the aftermath of this drama.
After 20+ years somebody who realises that 2 + 2 pretty much always = 4 has reported to plod that innocent subpostmasters gave up £'000s of their own legitimately earned money - to the point of personal ruin in several cases - to fill in the apparent 'discrepancies' in their post office counter accounts, believing or convinced they'd made mistakes and that funds were actually 'missing'. The post office accepted these funds. It has also retained hundreds of thousands of pounds despite the established reality that the vast majority of the 'discrepancies' never existed, beyond the unfit for purpose Fujitsu Horizon computer system. The Met now apparently looking at allegations of fraud perpetrated on the subpostmasters. We know why this has taken 20 years and a primetime ITV dramatisation to reach the front pages of MSM and public consciousness, but will "justice" ever actually be served? Investigating frauds takes plod years, even when there is genuine willingness. The current regime at no10 is hiding behind 'due process' and 'didn't happen on our watch' and the hyper convenient coincidence that a tiny number of subpostmasters inevitably had made a few mistakes and an even smaller number possibly had misbehaved, there is still no willingness to offer proportionate redress to the wrongfully convicted. But for the diligence, competence and resilience of Mr Bates none of this would have broken ground. Even with his superhuman success in overcoming the odds of one man versus global conglomerate dishonesty and central government complicity, the powers that be still doggedly resist the exposure of the truth. Deafening silence persists even inside Fujitsu UK, they continue to pretend there is no issue or case to answer, discussion of it internally is still supressed. Prosecutions of subpostmasters continued long after the reliability of the "evidence" was known internally at PO and Fujitsu to be nil. What still bugs me is that no defence barrister asked the prosecution to show where the 'missing' funds supposedly left the system to illicit destinations. What payments out were misrecorded by the SPMs or what receipts to those SPMs were diverted or 'trousered'? What corroboration did PO and/or Fujitsu provide that any individual 'discrepancy' represented misappropriation of funds. If a SPM misappropriated funds, they had to come from somewhere and then disappear. A list of supposed transactions sourced only from Horizon that the SPM couldn't explain should never have been sufficient for beyond reasonable doubt conviction of a felony. That's just "his word versus hers". This whole thing still really stinks and stinks really really badly. After 20some years the probability is that the real baddies are long since retired away on gilt edged pensions with their tracks sufficiently covered to obfuscate accountability but the channels through which their malfeasance was facilitated persist, unexamined, to this very day. Bizarrely of course the baddies weren't even robbing anybody for their own enrichment, they've just been lying relentlessly to cover their baggy arses. Do sleep well boys'n'girls...
I was aware of this case as it rumbled along but only in the background.
The fact its taken a TV drama to show us all what really went on and that its only because of this show that the headlines are being grabbed and there's now a demand for people to be held to account is quite disturbing really, in its own way.
As is the obviously misguided reliance on the IT "solution" that was installed as being completely infallible and peoples word not being believed, in the complete and total absence of any real evidence that they had done anything wrong - a classic case of "computer says no".
I'm definitely going to resist getting a smart meter for as long as I can!
This. x 100.
Private Eye has been covering this story for years. Every time I have read an article about it, I have been left fuming.
Indeed, I have been driving anyone who will listen to me (!) mad for many years by going on about the huge injustice of it all.
And yet it has taken a TV programme to finally get the powers that be to do something. And now they are falling over themselves to get justice for these poor.
I understand this scandal is going to be debated in the HoC tomorrow, You watch all the MPs from all parties fall over themselves to say they knew there was an injustice and that it needs to be rectified urgently.
This is not just disturbing, it is a scandal in its own right.
Like you I have been on this story for some time and I can't even watch the drama at the moment and the excellent Toby Jones. I will soon. I found it heartbreaking that so many people went to prison and had their lives wrecked and many died with a strain on their character. Ed Davey has questions to answer as he was in the coalition at the time and just accepted that the high number of postmasters were thieves; his remit was the Post office.
It should go above 1 million signatures today or tomorrow.
Snap! I've got all 4 episodes recorded and like you, can't bring myself to watch them as I know they are just going to make me so angry.
Just watched the first one - and even though I know Monica Dolan is acting the part of Jo Hamilton and we know the Horizon system was faulty - watching her trying to balance the books was quite distressing. Can't imagine what these people went through in reality. Needless to say I have signed the Vennells' petition. As others have pointed out why has it taken a TV drama to escalate matters?
I have followed most of the Radio 4 content. What I don't understand is, with the number of 700+ sub-postmasters prosecuted, why no one questioned the probability of that number of postmasters being on the fiddle, against the probability of faults with a new IT system, where there are a proven track records across many industries of serious faults as these systems go online. Didn't the investigators prosecuting the sub-postmasters consider this fact, or was that just too inconvenient? Whilst it would be good if those responsible were prosecuted and a certain companiy banned from further contacts, this will never happen. Politicians will close ranks. The police won't want to upset the government incase the Chief Constable doesn't get his knighthood. Post Office managers will dissappear into other industries or the church and claim they knew nothing. Government ties to the IT company will be too strong to break ranks. Solving this is way too deep in the 'too difficult' box. Big inquiries are a complete waste of time, imo. Does anyone expect that the persons ultimately responsible for Grenfell, partygate and the ongoing covid enquiry, to name three, will be sanctioned, prosecuted and fined appropriately or jailed? Slapped wrists and a day on the naughty step is as much as can be expected. And then compensated for the inconvenience suffered with a highly paid consultancy role, public award, senior political position, or all three. No interest previously from our largely right wing mass media to undertake proper investigate journalism to establish the facts, incase it inconveniences the Tories. And this enables a hold over them. And no pressure on the Post Office to settle claims in a timely manner. I'm expecting to see claimants still awaiting compensation in ten years. Once the fuss from the TV documentary has died down, obstructions will return, and the claimants will be forgotten again. Today, Sunak, the scum who we are unfortunate to have as our Prime Minister, jumped on the populist bandwagon in support of the sub-postmasters, in a vain attempt to gain popularity. Yesterday he didn’t give a fuck regarding their plight.
Serious question.
Why end your comment with the usual "Tories are scum" line?
If you know anything at all about the background of this case, you would know that all the main political parties have failed these poor sub postmasters appallingly.
This case has been in the public eye for absolutely years. It's not been hidden away under some blanket. Anyone from the Labour party or Lib Dems could have picked the baton up and really tried to get justice for these sub postmasters. But did they? Did they heck.
Believe me, I don't think the Conservatives have covered themselves in glory at all. And yup, Sunak's jumping on the bandwagon is hard to take. That said, if it now leads to the sub postmasters getting proper compensation and those who allowed this scandal to happen getting punished, then I'm glad he has.
I have followed most of the Radio 4 content. What I don't understand is, with the number of 700+ sub-postmasters prosecuted, why no one questioned the probability of that number of postmasters being on the fiddle, against the probability of faults with a new IT system, where there are a proven track records across many industries of serious faults as these systems go online. Didn't the investigators prosecuting the sub-postmasters consider this fact, or was that just too inconvenient? Whilst it would be good if those responsible were prosecuted and a certain companiy banned from further contacts, this will never happen. Politicians will close ranks. The police won't want to upset the government incase the Chief Constable doesn't get his knighthood. Post Office managers will dissappear into other industries or the church and claim they knew nothing. Government ties to the IT company will be too strong to break ranks. Solving this is way too deep in the 'too difficult' box. Big inquiries are a complete waste of time, imo. Does anyone expect that the persons ultimately responsible for Grenfell, partygate and the ongoing covid enquiry, to name three, will be sanctioned, prosecuted and fined appropriately or jailed? Slapped wrists and a day on the naughty step is as much as can be expected. And then compensated for the inconvenience suffered with a highly paid consultancy role, public award, senior political position, or all three. No interest previously from our largely right wing mass media to undertake proper investigate journalism to establish the facts, incase it inconveniences the Tories. And this enables a hold over them. And no pressure on the Post Office to settle claims in a timely manner. I'm expecting to see claimants still awaiting compensation in ten years. Once the fuss from the TV documentary has died down, obstructions will return, and the claimants will be forgotten again. Today, Sunak, the scum who we are unfortunate to have as our Prime Minister, jumped on the populist bandwagon in support of the sub-postmasters, in a vain attempt to gain popularity. Yesterday he didn’t give a fuck regarding their plight.
terrific post .. nail hit on head re the unlikely situation of over 700 sub postmasters being crooks, and that ridiculous probability being overlooked or simply ignored, indicates to me that 'British Justice' is all too often a rubber stamping exercise in favour of the government and its offshoots and quangos .. For example (excuse the digression) the scandal of Andrew Malkinson, essentially fitted up by the Manchester Old Bill only to be found not guilty after 17 years in the slammer, yes this was after a jury trial, but one tainted by essentially perjurious evidence .. tips of VERY large icebergs
A few points. Fujitsu UK is the former ICL which as the main/only major UK computer company had lots of government, central and local, contracts. I am guessing that may still be the case and if it is then I’d rather them than US software. (Ignore my bias!).
Just because the Fujitsu staff could access the live data it didn’t mean they did.
Although I first heard about this some years ago I can’t recall who ran the Horizon help desk - was it PO or Fujitsu ? If it was the former then I wonder how much Fujitsu knew about it.
We know many hundreds of sub postmasters experienced problems but that is out of 63000 users so mostly the system ran ok. Obviously not good enough.
When I first heard about the reported problems my gut told me it was a system problem. My gut now tells me it is at least 99% Post Office. For the life of me I cannot understand how the PO continues to be allowed any say in what happens to the sub postmasters. Prison is too good for them.
A few points. Fujitsu UK is the former ICL which as the main/only major UK computer company had lots of government, central and local, contracts. I am guessing that may still be the case and if it is then I’d rather them than US software. (Ignore my bias!).
Just because the Fujitsu staff could access the live data it didn’t mean they did.
Although I first heard about this some years ago I can’t recall who ran the Horizon help desk - was it PO or Fujitsu ? If it was the former then I wonder how much Fujitsu knew about it.
We know many hundreds of sub postmasters experienced problems but that is out of 63000 users so mostly the system ran ok. Obviously not good enough.
When I first heard about the reported problems my gut told me it was a system problem. My gut now tells me it is at least 99% Post Office. For the life of me I cannot understand how the PO continues to be allowed any say in what happens to the sub postmasters. Prison is too good for them.
In the drama, the rep from the Federation of Sub Postmasters visited the Fujitsu offices, and saw for himself how Fujitsu staff were manipulating the horizon systems of the postmasters
Seen the usual Tory bashing regarding this bit was it not a Labour government in charge at the time?
The Post Office senior management kept it hidden for a long time, but since 2010 the Tories, firstly as part of the coalition and then were in sole charge, so they've had plenty of time to sort out this miscarriage of justice, however they have rewarded people like Paula Vennells, instead of making them pay for their actions.
Seen the usual Tory bashing regarding this bit was it not a Labour government in charge at the time?
Yes, questions to be asked of both parties.
Not just "both parties", but actually a clean sweep of all three of the main political parties. Which is pretty unique in my recollection of the past 30 years or so.
And for that reason I don't really see why anyone would seek to make this a party political issue when it seems as though these people were let down by just about everyone they tried to get to help (with a few notable exceptions).
Seen the usual Tory bashing regarding this bit was it not a Labour government in charge at the time?
Yes, questions to be asked of both parties.
Not just "both parties", but actually a clean sweep of all three of the main political parties. Which is pretty unique in my recollection of the past 30 years or so.
And for that reason I don't really see why anyone would seek to make this a party political issue when it seems as though these people were let down by just about everyone they tried to get to help (with a few notable exceptions).
Yes, none of them come out of this with any glory, but we have had Conservatives in charge since 2010, so they rightly come in for the most criticism for not putting things right and allowing the Post Office to carry out their own 'investigations'.
They continue to give contracts to Fujitsu despite knowing about the failed systems provided by Fujitsu to the NHS, Magistrates' Courts, Post Office and others I believe.
Seen the usual Tory bashing regarding this bit was it not a Labour government in charge at the time?
Yes, questions to be asked of both parties.
Not just "both parties", but actually a clean sweep of all three of the main political parties. Which is pretty unique in my recollection of the past 30 years or so.
And for that reason I don't really see why anyone would seek to make this a party political issue when it seems as though these people were let down by just about everyone they tried to get to help (with a few notable exceptions).
Yes, none of them come out of this with any glory, but we have had Conservatives in charge since 2010, so they rightly come in for the most criticism for not putting things right and allowing the Post Office to carry out their own 'investigations'.
They continue to give contracts to Fujitsu despite knowing about the failed systems provided by Fujitsu to the NHS, Magistrates' Courts, Post Office and others I believe.
But I haven't heard any of the MPs from other parties - and there are hundreds of them from lots of different parties - pick up the cudgels and go into battle on their behalf either. In fact the only one that has gone out of his way to go into battle for them is a Conservative.
As I said, I genuinely don't think it's an obvious party political issue when there's fault right across the board. And to try to make it one, in my opinion, detracts from the real failings.
And as for the PO conduction their own investigations; my understanding is that they've had the power to do this for hundreds of years, but I wouldn't think to try blaming Disraeli, Lloyd George or Ramsey MacDonald for that!
A few points. Fujitsu UK is the former ICL which as the main/only major UK computer company had lots of government, central and local, contracts. I am guessing that may still be the case and if it is then I’d rather them than US software. (Ignore my bias!).
Just because the Fujitsu staff could access the live data it didn’t mean they did.
Although I first heard about this some years ago I can’t recall who ran the Horizon help desk - was it PO or Fujitsu ? If it was the former then I wonder how much Fujitsu knew about it.
We know many hundreds of sub postmasters experienced problems but that is out of 63000 users so mostly the system ran ok. Obviously not good enough.
When I first heard about the reported problems my gut told me it was a system problem. My gut now tells me it is at least 99% Post Office. For the life of me I cannot understand how the PO continues to be allowed any say in what happens to the sub postmasters. Prison is too good for them.
In the drama, the rep from the Federation of Sub Postmasters visited the Fujitsu offices, and saw for himself how Fujitsu staff were manipulating the horizon systems of the postmasters
Yes, I saw that and also remember it from a previous programme but it wasn’t established what they were changing and why. It is still quite puzzling.
Seen the usual Tory bashing regarding this bit was it not a Labour government in charge at the time?
The Post Office senior management kept it hidden for a long time, but since 2010 the Tories, firstly as part of the coalition and then were in sole charge, so they've had plenty of time to sort out this miscarriage of justice, however they have rewarded people like Paula Vennells, instead of making them pay for their actions.
All the parties knew what was going on. Quite a few posters on here , myself included have known for a few years about the scandal. Someone mention Andrew Malkinson on here earlier. Spent 17 years in prison wrongfully. Few months ago they were saying his got to pay board and lodgings out of his compensation for the time he spent in prison.
What bothers me is that Fujitsu seem to be untouchable. There are people who have held senior positions within the company, that have strong links to the Tory party, such as Tory major donor, Simon Blagdon and Michael Keegan, the husband of Gillian Keegan, the Education Secretary.
I hope the Met Police enquiries will lead to some prosecutions, but won't hold my breath.
The current Government will quickly settle the compensation claims as public opinion demands, then hope that the whole thing dies down and forget the real cause of the whole scandal.
Half of me is delighted this is now front and centre and you hood people are rightly enthusiastically and angrily giving it momentum
The other half of me is bitter, resentful and angry at all the times I've seen eyes glaze over, dismiss me as a conspiracy lunatic, plain ignore me when I have spoken to anyone about this, up until, I'd say the MP expenses atrocity, that I thought was finally a time we would hold these maggots to account but no.
This is one of the biggest disgraces of our time and easily one of the biggest miscarriages of justice in recent history. I have no mercy for the people responsible for disgracing decent, hard working, innocent people doing a thankless job. Much the same as I have no mercy for any of Johnsons cabinet.
I can begrudgingly accept shiny faced, inbred horse molesters reign over us plebs but they do so with a bees dick, when they get caught out shagging school children, abusing other human beings, stealing and defrauding, whatever I believe they should be held to a far higher punishment than those they treat as lackeys and slaves. And this is, I hope, the prime case when the tide turns and these horrible, awful people are held to account. I'm not holding my breath but this is a very valid cause to be angry as a nation about
What bothers me is that Fujitsu seem to be untouchable. There are people who have held senior positions within the company, that have strong links to the Tory party, such as Tory major donor, Simon Blagdon and Michael Keegan, the husband of Gillian Keegan, the Education Secretary.
I hope the Met Police enquiries will lead to some prosecutions, but won't hold my breath.
The current Government will quickly settle the compensation claims as public opinion demands, then hope that the whole thing dies down and forget the real cause of the whole scandal.
Just to add a few things from skimming this thread and two articles in the FT: It's not just 700 convictions but the Post Office pursued 3,500 through civil courts to claim back "missing" funds.
The Met is investigating on behalf of CPS covering perjury and perverting the course of justice. That's to say expert witnesses from either PO or Fujitsu may have lied in court or presented tainted evidence.
For those stating this might be an all party effort, I'd suggest that this scandal didn't break until 2008 or 2009. And that this is by far the only scandal that requires acceleration in compensation plus suitable inquiries: Windrush Grenfell PPE VIP Lane procurement all stink of late, ineffective action and links between people with influence whose actions require a strong light to shone upon them.
For me, only a change of government will speed things up.
A massive scandal that leaves none of the 3 parties, the PO or Fujitsu in a good light.
Having read the various articles I think the behaviour of the PO and Fujitsu has been criminal.
The fact that several sub-postmasters have committed suicide over this is beyond excuse and people should be held accountable.
One of the most scandalous parts of this story now is how the “politicians” are quickly jumping on the bandwagon.
It’s an absolute disgrace (delivered in Liz Truss’s voice) that it’s taken a TV dramatization to bring this scandal to the wider public and get the “politicians” to react!
I watched the 4 episodes, with a mixture of anger and tearful emotion. This is a huge miscarriage of justice and needs sorting now! I signed the petition over the weekend and was pleased to hear, thus morning, it has passed the 1 million mark. I also listened to 2 ex-subpostmasters who were both convicted of theft, although no proof was given in either case, and both were sent to prison, one of them, aged 19, went to Holloway!! The interesting part of the live interview on BBC breakfast is that they both commented on Sunaks interview yesterday morning with Kusenberg, saying he got two 'facts' completely wrong and didn't know what he was talking about! Yet, he is supposed to want to get this sorted, he's just bandwagon jumping I'm afraid. Finally, as they said, this isn't just about compensation, it's about everyone clearing their names and PO heads to face criminal charges, like they had to! They also want the PO to be dropped from running the investigation, and rightly so!
What bothers me is that Fujitsu seem to be untouchable. There are people who have held senior positions within the company, that have strong links to the Tory party, such as Tory major donor, Simon Blagdon and Michael Keegan, the husband of Gillian Keegan, the Education Secretary.
I hope the Met Police enquiries will lead to some prosecutions, but won't hold my breath.
The current Government will quickly settle the compensation claims as public opinion demands, then hope that the whole thing dies down and forget the real cause of the whole scandal.
Just to add a few things from skimming this thread and two articles in the FT: It's not just 700 convictions but the Post Office pursued 3,500 through civil courts to claim back "missing" funds.
The Met is investigating on behalf of CPS covering perjury and perverting the course of justice. That's to say expert witnesses from either PO or Fujitsu may have lied in court or presented tainted evidence.
For those stating this might be an all party effort, I'd suggest that this scandal didn't break until 2008 or 2009. And that this is by far the only scandal that requires acceleration in compensation plus suitable inquiries: Windrush Grenfell PPE VIP Lane procurement all stink of late, ineffective action and links between people with influence whose actions require a strong light to shone upon them.
For me, only a change of government will speed things up.
I don't want to keep going over old ground but anyone who thinks the blame for this scandal just rests with the current government is absolutely wrong.
You say the scandal never broke until 2008/9.That is just wrong. I stand to be corrected but I think the first prosecutions were around about 2001. By 2005 a steady stream of convictions were already happening and people should have been aware then that something was amiss.
And the first politician who realised that something was seriously wrong (and did something about it) was James Arbuthnot, a Conservative.
All the parties are to blame for this scandal. Don't let any of them off the hook by pretending it is all the Conservative party fault.
I watched the 4 episodes, with a mixture of anger and tearful emotion. This is a huge miscarriage of justice and needs sorting now! I signed the petition over the weekend and was pleased to hear, thus morning, it has passed the 1 million mark. I also listened to 2 ex-subpostmasters who were both convicted of theft, although no proof was given in either case, and both were sent to prison, one of them, aged 19, went to Holloway!! The interesting part of the live interview on BBC breakfast is that they both commented on Sunaks interview yesterday morning with Kusenberg, saying he got two 'facts' completely wrong and didn't know what he was talking about! Yet, he is supposed to want to get this sorted, he's just bandwagon jumping I'm afraid. Finally, as they said, this isn't just about compensation, it's about everyone clearing their names and PO heads to face criminal charges, like they had to! They also want the PO to be dropped from running the investigation, and rightly so!
That is what is so frustrating, he picks on a topic he thinks will get him votes. I'm sure he hopes that a quick settlement for the wronged postmasters will be the end of it and he will be seen in a good light. He has been in the Government for the last 4 years and has done nothing until the programme brought the scandal to a wider audience.
A quick settlement and complete exoneration of all the sub postmasters is necessary, but the root cause of the problem is a failed IT system, that both Fujitsu and the Post Office knew about. The fact that Fujitsu are still being given NEW contracts is unacceptable and serious questions need to be asked why. I think it is likely that it goes to the heart of the Conservative party, there are already links on this thread with some of those with connections between the Post Office, Fujitsu and the Conservative party
On tv this morning there has been little or no mention of Fujitsu when covering the scandal, that is not right.
What bothers me is that Fujitsu seem to be untouchable. There are people who have held senior positions within the company, that have strong links to the Tory party, such as Tory major donor, Simon Blagdon and Michael Keegan, the husband of Gillian Keegan, the Education Secretary.
I hope the Met Police enquiries will lead to some prosecutions, but won't hold my breath.
The current Government will quickly settle the compensation claims as public opinion demands, then hope that the whole thing dies down and forget the real cause of the whole scandal.
Just to add a few things from skimming this thread and two articles in the FT: It's not just 700 convictions but the Post Office pursued 3,500 through civil courts to claim back "missing" funds.
The Met is investigating on behalf of CPS covering perjury and perverting the course of justice. That's to say expert witnesses from either PO or Fujitsu may have lied in court or presented tainted evidence.
For those stating this might be an all party effort, I'd suggest that this scandal didn't break until 2008 or 2009. And that this is by far the only scandal that requires acceleration in compensation plus suitable inquiries: Windrush Grenfell PPE VIP Lane procurement all stink of late, ineffective action and links between people with influence whose actions require a strong light to shone upon them.
For me, only a change of government will speed things up.
I don't want to keep going over old ground but anyone who thinks the blame for this scandal just rests with the current government is absolutely wrong.
You say the scandal never broke until 2008/9.That is just wrong. I stand to be corrected but I think the first prosecutions were around about 2001. By 2005 a steady stream of convictions were already happening and people should have been aware then that something was amiss.
And the first politician who realised that something was seriously wrong (and did something about it) was James Arbuthnot, a Conservative.
All the parties are to blame for this scandal. Don't let any of them off the hook by pretending it is all the Conservative party fault.
From what I have been able to find, Sir James Arbuthnot first brought the scandal to light in 2009, when the Justice for Sub Post Masters Alliance was formed. At the time the Post Office and Fujitsu were still covering up the problems with Horizon.
The Tories have been in power since 2010, so have had plenty of time to take action, but that hasn't been the case. In fact Sir Bob Neill, the Conservative MP for Chislehurst and Chair of the Parliament's Justice Select Committee, said on tv this morning, that his committee had made recommendations to the Government 2 years ago, but that they have so far failed to act on those recommendations.
The Tory Government has had 13 years to put things right and they've failed to do that.
Funny how little Rishi Sunak is keen on deterrence when it comes to immigration but there's no mention of a deterrent for the corrupt mates who help themselves to public funds or commit crimes against innocent post office staff without fear of any consequences.
i'd be expediting the prosecution of these bastards to the maximum extent possible and when found guilty use their assets in their entirety to compensate those who've lost out. If theyre left with nothing, well, now you know how it feels.
And I'd take a wrecking ball to Michelle Mone's castle with her and her vile husband still inside it.
For those saying this isn't a party political issue, you are correct. All three major parties have had the opportunity to do something, and failed. However, this is just the tip of a massive iceberg, as I keep pointing out - please read Private Eye, just buy a copy today and read it, from cover to cover (okay skip the "funny" bits if you wish) and see page after page of corruption, cronyism, people buying their way out of justice, buying their way into honours, into government contracts, into powerful positions... 90% involves tories in general, "old Etonians" or this government in particular.
No party is innocent, but one is far more culpable than others, and if it takes this to lift the lid on the whole sorry state of affairs, use it to change things. You don't need to justify your past political affiliations over things you didn't know about, but once the cat is out of the bag, and you do know what is happening, you need to question yourself if you continue to turn a blind eye.
Comments
Ed Davey refused to meet Alan Bates back in 2010 and has been trying to justify himself in the aftermath of this drama.
We know why this has taken 20 years and a primetime ITV dramatisation to reach the front pages of MSM and public consciousness, but will "justice" ever actually be served?
Investigating frauds takes plod years, even when there is genuine willingness. The current regime at no10 is hiding behind 'due process' and 'didn't happen on our watch' and the hyper convenient coincidence that a tiny number of subpostmasters inevitably had made a few mistakes and an even smaller number possibly had misbehaved, there is still no willingness to offer proportionate redress to the wrongfully convicted. But for the diligence, competence and resilience of Mr Bates none of this would have broken ground. Even with his superhuman success in overcoming the odds of one man versus global conglomerate dishonesty and central government complicity, the powers that be still doggedly resist the exposure of the truth. Deafening silence persists even inside Fujitsu UK, they continue to pretend there is no issue or case to answer, discussion of it internally is still supressed.
Prosecutions of subpostmasters continued long after the reliability of the "evidence" was known internally at PO and Fujitsu to be nil.
What still bugs me is that no defence barrister asked the prosecution to show where the 'missing' funds supposedly left the system to illicit destinations. What payments out were misrecorded by the SPMs or what receipts to those SPMs were diverted or 'trousered'? What corroboration did PO and/or Fujitsu provide that any individual 'discrepancy' represented misappropriation of funds. If a SPM misappropriated funds, they had to come from somewhere and then disappear. A list of supposed transactions sourced only from Horizon that the SPM couldn't explain should never have been sufficient for beyond reasonable doubt conviction of a felony. That's just "his word versus hers".
This whole thing still really stinks and stinks really really badly.
After 20some years the probability is that the real baddies are long since retired away on gilt edged pensions with their tracks sufficiently covered to obfuscate accountability but the channels through which their malfeasance was facilitated persist, unexamined, to this very day. Bizarrely of course the baddies weren't even robbing anybody for their own enrichment, they've just been lying relentlessly to cover their baggy arses.
Do sleep well boys'n'girls...
Why end your comment with the usual "Tories are scum" line?
If you know anything at all about the background of this case, you would know that all the main political parties have failed these poor sub postmasters appallingly.
This case has been in the public eye for absolutely years. It's not been hidden away under some blanket. Anyone from the Labour party or Lib Dems could have picked the baton up and really tried to get justice for these sub postmasters. But did they? Did they heck.
Believe me, I don't think the Conservatives have covered themselves in glory at all. And yup, Sunak's jumping on the bandwagon is hard to take. That said, if it now leads to the sub postmasters getting proper compensation and those who allowed this scandal to happen getting punished, then I'm glad he has.
For example (excuse the digression) the scandal of Andrew Malkinson, essentially fitted up by the Manchester Old Bill only to be found not guilty after 17 years in the slammer, yes this was after a jury trial, but one tainted by essentially perjurious evidence .. tips of VERY large icebergs
Just because the Fujitsu staff could access the live data it didn’t mean they did.
Although I first heard about this some years ago I can’t recall who ran the Horizon help desk - was it PO or Fujitsu ? If it was the former then I wonder how much Fujitsu knew about it.
We know many hundreds of sub postmasters experienced problems but that is out of 63000 users so mostly the system ran ok. Obviously not good enough.
When I first heard about the reported problems my gut told me it was a system problem. My gut now tells me it is at least 99% Post Office. For the life of me I cannot understand how the PO continues to be allowed any say in what happens to the sub postmasters. Prison is too good for them.
And for that reason I don't really see why anyone would seek to make this a party political issue when it seems as though these people were let down by just about everyone they tried to get to help (with a few notable exceptions).
They continue to give contracts to Fujitsu despite knowing about the failed systems provided by Fujitsu to the NHS, Magistrates' Courts, Post Office and others I believe.
As I said, I genuinely don't think it's an obvious party political issue when there's fault right across the board. And to try to make it one, in my opinion, detracts from the real failings.
And as for the PO conduction their own investigations; my understanding is that they've had the power to do this for hundreds of years, but I wouldn't think to try blaming Disraeli, Lloyd George or Ramsey MacDonald for that!
Quite a few posters on here , myself included have known for a few years about the scandal.
Someone mention Andrew Malkinson on here earlier.
Spent 17 years in prison wrongfully.
Few months ago they were saying his got to pay board and lodgings out of his compensation for the time he spent in prison.
I hope the Met Police enquiries will lead to some prosecutions, but won't hold my breath.
The current Government will quickly settle the compensation claims as public opinion demands, then hope that the whole thing dies down and forget the real cause of the whole scandal.
The other half of me is bitter, resentful and angry at all the times I've seen eyes glaze over, dismiss me as a conspiracy lunatic, plain ignore me when I have spoken to anyone about this, up until, I'd say the MP expenses atrocity, that I thought was finally a time we would hold these maggots to account but no.
This is one of the biggest disgraces of our time and easily one of the biggest miscarriages of justice in recent history. I have no mercy for the people responsible for disgracing decent, hard working, innocent people doing a thankless job. Much the same as I have no mercy for any of Johnsons cabinet.
I can begrudgingly accept shiny faced, inbred horse molesters reign over us plebs but they do so with a bees dick, when they get caught out shagging school children, abusing other human beings, stealing and defrauding, whatever I believe they should be held to a far higher punishment than those they treat as lackeys and slaves. And this is, I hope, the prime case when the tide turns and these horrible, awful people are held to account. I'm not holding my breath but this is a very valid cause to be angry as a nation about
It's not just 700 convictions but the Post Office pursued 3,500 through civil courts to claim back "missing" funds.
The Met is investigating on behalf of CPS covering perjury and perverting the course of justice. That's to say expert witnesses from either PO or Fujitsu may have lied in court or presented tainted evidence.
For those stating this might be an all party effort, I'd suggest that this scandal didn't break until 2008 or 2009. And that this is by far the only scandal that requires acceleration in compensation plus suitable inquiries:
Windrush
Grenfell
PPE VIP Lane procurement
all stink of late, ineffective action and links between people with influence whose actions require a strong light to shone upon them.
For me, only a change of government will speed things up.
Having read the various articles I think the behaviour of the PO and Fujitsu has been criminal.
The fact that several sub-postmasters have committed suicide over this is beyond excuse and people should be held accountable.
One of the most scandalous parts of this story now is how the “politicians” are quickly jumping on the bandwagon.
It’s an absolute disgrace (delivered in Liz Truss’s voice) that it’s taken a TV dramatization to bring this scandal to the wider public and get the “politicians” to react!
I also listened to 2 ex-subpostmasters who were both convicted of theft, although no proof was given in either case, and both were sent to prison, one of them, aged 19, went to Holloway!!
The interesting part of the live interview on BBC breakfast is that they both commented on Sunaks interview yesterday morning with Kusenberg, saying he got two 'facts' completely wrong and didn't know what he was talking about! Yet, he is supposed to want to get this sorted, he's just bandwagon jumping I'm afraid.
Finally, as they said, this isn't just about compensation, it's about everyone clearing their names and PO heads to face criminal charges, like they had to!
They also want the PO to be dropped from running the investigation, and rightly so!
You say the scandal never broke until 2008/9.That is just wrong. I stand to be corrected but I think the first prosecutions were around about 2001. By 2005 a steady stream of convictions were already happening and people should have been aware then that something was amiss.
And the first politician who realised that something was seriously wrong (and did something about it) was James Arbuthnot, a Conservative.
All the parties are to blame for this scandal. Don't let any of them off the hook by pretending it is all the Conservative party fault.
A quick settlement and complete exoneration of all the sub postmasters is necessary, but the root cause of the problem is a failed IT system, that both Fujitsu and the Post Office knew about. The fact that Fujitsu are still being given NEW contracts is unacceptable and serious questions need to be asked why. I think it is likely that it goes to the heart of the Conservative party, there are already links on this thread with some of those with connections between the Post Office, Fujitsu and the Conservative party
On tv this morning there has been little or no mention of Fujitsu when covering the scandal, that is not right.
The Tories have been in power since 2010, so have had plenty of time to take action, but that hasn't been the case. In fact Sir Bob Neill, the Conservative MP for Chislehurst and Chair of the Parliament's Justice Select Committee, said on tv this morning, that his committee had made recommendations to the Government 2 years ago, but that they have so far failed to act on those recommendations.
The Tory Government has had 13 years to put things right and they've failed to do that.
No party is innocent, but one is far more culpable than others, and if it takes this to lift the lid on the whole sorry state of affairs, use it to change things. You don't need to justify your past political affiliations over things you didn't know about, but once the cat is out of the bag, and you do know what is happening, you need to question yourself if you continue to turn a blind eye.