I am going to say it!! Yes I am, Nathan Jones......................

Crowbarcafc

Think these 2 millwall games will define jones reign i fear. Didnt take ramsey off when on a booking which was poor management costs 2 points and ramsey form dipped since. Saturday just a shower no tactical game management all done on a whim.

Nicholas

Callumcafc said:

Nicholas said:

Bell played about 25-30 mins before going off injured against Coventry. We played really up until that point. Tanto was playing really well too and causing Coventry all sorts of problems. Jones decided it would be wise to take Bell off for Leaburn and that was game over.

I think we’re talking about two different Coventry games. I assumed @Er_Be_Ab_Pl_Wo_Wo_Ch was referencing the NYD home game which was drawn 1-1 and Bell played a full 90 at centre back.

Totally forgot about the home game on news year day, my bad.

Athletico Charlton

At the start of the season with Bell and Edwards we had a really solid defence, even by Championship standards... With Lloydy, Ramsey and Bree alongside them. It meant we could grind out results by giving so little away.

The issue was however always obvious from the summer.  We had 3 players for 2 spots on the left of defence.  One (Bell) being injury prone and one (Gillesphey) never going to be up to it.

That is what stuffed us, not having more cover.  It was idiotic for a team set up to defend first and foremost.  

Was that Jones? Chapel not delivering?  Rodwell not delivering?  Lenegan not delivering? Or our owners putting the funding shutters up? Who knows but what a huge and glaringly obvious error.  

I assumed we would sort it immediately start of Jan. I now have very little confidence we will have done by the end of the window.  It will be our undoing and whoever made that choice in the summer needs moving on I would suggest.

BigDiddy

Athletico Charlton said:

At the start of the season with Bell and Edwards we had a really solid defence, even by Championship standards... With Lloydy, Ramsey and Bree alongside them. It meant we could grind out results by giving so little away.

The issue was however always obvious from the summer.  We had 3 players for 2 spots on the left of defence.  One (Bell) being injury prone and one (Gillesphey) never going to be up to it.

That is what stuffed us, not having more cover.  It was idiotic for a team set up to defend first and foremost.  

Was that Jones? Chapel not delivering?  Rodwell not delivering?  Lenegan not delivering? Or our owners putting the funding shutters up? Who knows but what a huge and glaringly obvious error.  

I assumed we would sort it immediately start of Jan. I now have very little confidence we will have done by the end of the window.  It will be our undoing and whoever made that choice in the summer needs moving on I would suggest.

Exactly my thoughts. Relegation will put us back years, so the owners should know that crowds will drop massively if we fail to show that as a club, we will invest. 

NJ may ultimately be removed because he may not be able to get the best out of this group, but if we do not get players in this week, why should be be the scapegoat?

If we get a drubbing at the King Power this Saturday [which is a real possibility] , NJ might well be toast.

clb74

Was never going to be pretty.
The aim this season was to stay up.
I was a pup  the last time we beat Millwall , over the past 30 years how many times have we gave Millwall a game?
We pick up 9 points in February and 85% of posters on this thread will change their tune.

Er_Be_Ab_Pl_Wo_Wo_Ch

Leicester will come after 4 weeks of no travelling. After Leicester, we have 3 more weeks of no travelling, before Southampton away. They've had / will have maximum time at the training ground.

Arthur_Trudgill

Saturday was humiliating, but I'm adding myself to the Jones stays faction.

. A relegation battle, after 5 years in L1, was expected.

. Still not in the relegation zone.

. January signings look ok, and some players are coming back from injury.

. There's no guarantee that better managers are available, willing and affordable. Better to use the money to get better players.

eastterrace6168

Crowbarcafc said:

Think these 2 millwall games will define jones reign i fear. Didnt take ramsey off when on a booking which was poor management costs 2 points and ramsey form dipped since. Saturday just a shower no tactical game management all done on a whim.

Ramsay cost us two points in the home game not Jones...

NabySarr

Athletico Charlton said:

At the start of the season with Bell and Edwards we had a really solid defence, even by Championship standards... With Lloydy, Ramsey and Bree alongside them. It meant we could grind out results by giving so little away.

The issue was however always obvious from the summer.  We had 3 players for 2 spots on the left of defence.  One (Bell) being injury prone and one (Gillesphey) never going to be up to it.

That is what stuffed us, not having more cover.  It was idiotic for a team set up to defend first and foremost.  

Was that Jones? Chapel not delivering?  Rodwell not delivering?  Lenegan not delivering? Or our owners putting the funding shutters up? Who knows but what a huge and glaringly obvious error.  

I assumed we would sort it immediately start of Jan. I now have very little confidence we will have done by the end of the window.  It will be our undoing and whoever made that choice in the summer needs moving on I would suggest.

Jones said recently that we wanted another LWB in the summer but couldn’t find one to bring in that we liked. Given the struggle to bring one in this January I think it could genuinely just be a really difficult position to recruit for with very few options on the market. We really struck gold with Edwards 

AndyG

I’m still very much in the NJ in camp but I think we are in for a rocky ride. I just can’t see any signings coming in this week that will boost fan confidence and fully expect another torrid time and a similar result on Saturday but these matches won’t define our season results like Blackburn and Portsmouth will. We need to concentrate on the games against the teams around us and pick up decent points

siblers

NabySarr said:

Athletico Charlton said:

At the start of the season with Bell and Edwards we had a really solid defence, even by Championship standards... With Lloydy, Ramsey and Bree alongside them. It meant we could grind out results by giving so little away.

The issue was however always obvious from the summer.  We had 3 players for 2 spots on the left of defence.  One (Bell) being injury prone and one (Gillesphey) never going to be up to it.

That is what stuffed us, not having more cover.  It was idiotic for a team set up to defend first and foremost.  

Was that Jones? Chapel not delivering?  Rodwell not delivering?  Lenegan not delivering? Or our owners putting the funding shutters up? Who knows but what a huge and glaringly obvious error.  

I assumed we would sort it immediately start of Jan. I now have very little confidence we will have done by the end of the window.  It will be our undoing and whoever made that choice in the summer needs moving on I would suggest.

Jones said recently that we wanted another LWB in the summer but couldn’t find one to bring in that we liked. Given the struggle to bring one in this January I think it could genuinely just be a really difficult position to recruit for with very few options on the market. We really struck gold with Edwards 

Then why can't he at least try a different formation instead of leaving the team so imbalanced and constantly fucking around the line up to shoehorn someone into LWB.

Chris_from_Sidcup

Callumcafc said:

Er_Be_Ab_Pl_Wo_Wo_Ch said:

benjest1989 said:

W D L L D W W D L W W D D W L L L L L D W L L D D W L L  - form has dropped off a cliff - both recent wins have been followed by 2 losses

It's been a long while since we beat a half-decent team. The last 3 wins -
Scraped a 1-0 against a poor West Brom;
Beat a poor Oxford 1-0, who then offloaded their manager;
Defended out a 1-0 lead against 9-man Sheff Utd.

Probably the best performance in the last 3 months was against Coventry - the spirit shown that day, perhaps I mean cohesiveness, is what needs to be rediscovered. Where/why did it go?!

Two words: Amari’i Bell

That game was the last time he played a complete 90 minutes at LCB.

Also had Leaburn and Kelman up front and i think we need to revert back to that. Dykes as a lone striker just isn't going to cut it.

thenewbie

siblers said:

NabySarr said:

Athletico Charlton said:

At the start of the season with Bell and Edwards we had a really solid defence, even by Championship standards... With Lloydy, Ramsey and Bree alongside them. It meant we could grind out results by giving so little away.

The issue was however always obvious from the summer.  We had 3 players for 2 spots on the left of defence.  One (Bell) being injury prone and one (Gillesphey) never going to be up to it.

That is what stuffed us, not having more cover.  It was idiotic for a team set up to defend first and foremost.  

Was that Jones? Chapel not delivering?  Rodwell not delivering?  Lenegan not delivering? Or our owners putting the funding shutters up? Who knows but what a huge and glaringly obvious error.  

I assumed we would sort it immediately start of Jan. I now have very little confidence we will have done by the end of the window.  It will be our undoing and whoever made that choice in the summer needs moving on I would suggest.

Jones said recently that we wanted another LWB in the summer but couldn’t find one to bring in that we liked. Given the struggle to bring one in this January I think it could genuinely just be a really difficult position to recruit for with very few options on the market. We really struck gold with Edwards 

Then why can't he at least try a different formation instead of leaving the team so imbalanced and constantly fucking around the line up to shoehorn someone into LWB.

Because the whole squad had been recruited with that formation in mind. You either "shoehorn" someone into LWB or you put 2 or 3 other players into positions they are not comfortable with either. Plus any player who would have been the WB would also have been the one to play a more traditional FB as well so our lack of bodies there would STILL be an issue.

I'm less sympathetic to Jones than some as I view a lot of his problems as at least partially self-inflicted or at least exacerbated by his foibles as a manager but I don't see anyone else turning it around. My current stance is that he got us into this situation so he should get us out of it - or fall on his sword if he can't.

paulsturgess

ElfsborgAddick said:

paulsturgess said:

NabySarr said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

DamoNorthStand said:

MrWalker said:

LargeAddick said:

QCallumcafc said:

LargeAddick said:

The Red Robin said:

Those two points dropped at Blackburn and point dropped at Pompey are looking pretty costly today. 

It’s not only the points we dropped but the fact we allowed Blackburn to earn a point and Pompey to earn all three. Two massive results.

And yet we’re above both in the league. Would’ve been nice if the gap was bigger but I’d still rather be us than be them.

I’d swear that if we were four points adrift of safety with just one game to play you’d still put a positive spin on it.

Except Callum is right. 

Statistically and emotionally 

How do we judge who we are better than?

The league table as it stands, or the form table over the last, say, 15 games.

I think you would learn more (and gain a more accurate reading) from the latter.

It’s not the form table that decides which teams go down.

Obviously if the shit form continues we know what it means, but that’s why it’s form. Because it tends to vary over a 46 game season.

How many times in football have you thought “where’s the next win coming from?” and then it appears.

How many people thought we’d do Northampton 5-0 at their place last December before it happened? And how many people thought our supposed League One squad would win 3-0 at Portman Road this season?

We were always going to have a bad spell this year - and it’s lasting a bit longer than is comfortable for anyone. What’s yet to be seen is how and when we react to it. 

What’s the point in being a supporter if you can’t believe in your team?

It's beyond a spell of form mate. It's the reality of the side/squad we have this season, I would say we're now on a 21 game spell of poor "form" - barring a crazy and wonderful 20 minutes against Ipswich, our performances and results for the entirety of the months of October, November, December and January have been very poor. 

I hope you're right (again) and the tide is about to turn but I don't think anyone can suggest that 4 months / 21 matches is merely a bad spell as it's practically half of the entire season, and about 70% of the season that has taken place thus far 

I completely disagree that we’ve had problems for 21 games.

We’ve played 28 - we only lost three of our first 14, won nearly half of those (six). We were in the playoffs on November 7th. Mad to me that you’ve included an unbeaten run of five games where we won 3 and drawn 2.

Two wins in 14 is an unfortunately long run of bad results but it’s nowhere near 21.

You're looking at results only but that is incredibly naive IMO. (Good) managers should be able to see when things are not going well and it is perfectly possible to nick adequate results (very acutely shown against Sheff U last week) despite having problems and being in poor form.

In October, we lost and played poorly at Preston, we won but clung on in somewhat embarrasing fashion against Sheffield Wednesday (nuff said), were fortunate to steal a draw at Hull, were fortunate to beat West Brom (struggling) and deserved to lose to Swansea (struggling). Even Ipswich away, we were played off the park first half but hung on and then produced that 20 minute storm. 

Generally, poor performances will translate into poor results even if not always, and good performances will translate into good results even if not always. I hoped those performances at the time were just a wobble, struggle period, but what has followed since is just the manifestation of those largely poor performances, and I would say if we perform like we did on the average of those matches listed above, we will continue on our trajectory to get relegated as the outcomes are likely to be broadly in line with what has continued since. So it is completely reasonable to include those within our poor run of form.

I think there’s some revisionism going on here with that run, the performances weren’t much worse than you’d probably expect of us this season. Just because we started so well it felt like a drop off. 

I don’t think we deserved to lose against Swansea, the stats certainly don’t agree with that. Didn’t deserve to beat West Brom fair enough. Ipswich and Hull away, when we are away against teams in the top 6 we are always going to be up against it and mostly be outplayed. I wouldn’t say that run of games was poor performances, I’d say that it was actually performing to the level of the squad we have.Competitive at home, struggling away but staying in games as best we can 

I’d describe your discussion of the Swansea game as revisionism so have to agree to disagree on that. Even allowing your assessment - the indisputable terrible run still stretches beyond anything that can reasonably be described as just a poor run of form.

by the way, I’m not calling for his head, I’m demanding he swallows some of his enormous ego and makes significant changes to alter the situation post haste because he, and we, are on the precipice 

I gave up watching Jones' interviews, is he still starting off with "look".

Fans of his former clubs might says he’s conscious of the fact that many people need to be actively ordered to look at what he’s serving up on the pitch 

CAFCBourne

He'd of been better off not getting us promoted. We weren't ready and now he's paying for it. The squad he has are miles off this league and if by some miracle we stay in this league it would be a massive achievement.

We've been in the footballing wilderness for years if this group deserve anything its our backing not to return to it.

Garrymanilow

siblers said:

NabySarr said:

Athletico Charlton said:

At the start of the season with Bell and Edwards we had a really solid defence, even by Championship standards... With Lloydy, Ramsey and Bree alongside them. It meant we could grind out results by giving so little away.

The issue was however always obvious from the summer.  We had 3 players for 2 spots on the left of defence.  One (Bell) being injury prone and one (Gillesphey) never going to be up to it.

That is what stuffed us, not having more cover.  It was idiotic for a team set up to defend first and foremost.  

Was that Jones? Chapel not delivering?  Rodwell not delivering?  Lenegan not delivering? Or our owners putting the funding shutters up? Who knows but what a huge and glaringly obvious error.  

I assumed we would sort it immediately start of Jan. I now have very little confidence we will have done by the end of the window.  It will be our undoing and whoever made that choice in the summer needs moving on I would suggest.

Jones said recently that we wanted another LWB in the summer but couldn’t find one to bring in that we liked. Given the struggle to bring one in this January I think it could genuinely just be a really difficult position to recruit for with very few options on the market. We really struck gold with Edwards 

Then why can't he at least try a different formation instead of leaving the team so imbalanced and constantly fucking around the line up to shoehorn someone into LWB.

What formation? We have the same number of left backs and left wing backs because they're the same guy so we'd just be shoehorning someone in at left back instead. We tried 442 with Clarke at left back on Saturday and we conceded 3 goals in the 35 minutes it happened. We need to rethink our approach play and our width more than we need to worry about formation

benjest1989

clb74 said:

Was never going to be pretty.
The aim this season was to stay up.
I was a pup  the last time we beat Millwall , over the past 30 years how many times have we gave Millwall a game?
We pick up 9 points in February and 85% of posters on this thread will change their tune.

What makes you think we will pick up 9 points in February? We are playing QPR, Stoke, Portsmouth, Southampton, West Brom, Wrexham. Form - 2 wins in 14 

Garrymanilow

benjest1989 said:

clb74 said:

Was never going to be pretty.
The aim this season was to stay up.
I was a pup  the last time we beat Millwall , over the past 30 years how many times have we gave Millwall a game?
We pick up 9 points in February and 85% of posters on this thread will change their tune.

What makes you think we will pick up 9 points in February? We are playing QPR, Stoke, Portsmouth, Southampton, West Brom, Wrexham. Form - 2 wins in 14 

Well let's just pack it in altogether then. 

Other teams' form might be relevant. QPR have won 3 of their last 10 and other than the traditional 3 points Wendies are handing out this season haven't won since 20th December. They also haven't won an away game since 26th November. Feels like one where we could aim for 3 points. 

Stoke have been in middling form. They've also won 3 of their last 10 and have dropped down the table. We've got them at home and should be aiming to get at them.

Pompey are definitely improving but have won 3 of their last 10 including against us - which was their last win - but also against Wendies. We've got them at home and it's one we really do need to win.

Southampton away is a tough one for many reasons but they've dipped recently, have won 2 of their last 10 including losing to Oxford and failing to beat Portsmouth. Their last wins were 21st January and 9th December. 

West Brom are in terrible form, 2 wins in their last 10 and one of those was against QPR who as mentioned are terrible away from home.

Wrexham are in good form, won 5 of their last 10 and only lost 3, that will be a tough one.

Obviously the further on you go in the February games the more time any of those teams have to turn themselves around but if we were to play any of them tomorrow with the exception of Wrexham we would be playing teams who are completely out of form. None of them have won more than 3 in their last 10 games and two of them have won the same number as us. We're not the only team finding it difficult, if we can have a decent end to the transfer window and build a bit of belief again there's no reason we can't get some wins off this run, it's not like the one we had in November where every game was a nightmare

elbiglad

It's clear something needs to change. This is no longer a blip in form. There have been positives recently: I thought we ended the games against Derby and Middlesbrough well, but it is easy to play with freedom when you're 2-0 down. We played well v Portsmouth but didn't get the result. We played well against Coventry. However the negatives far outweigh these positives and something's gotta give.

In my view, it should be tactical shifts and personnel changes. I think the basic formation is about right, but would like to see us press higher again and take more risks offensively, for instance. Like many others I long for the days of another quick direct winger a la Thierry Small to give teams two threats to worry about; I hope having a left footed wing back will help to bring back some of that balance. In terms of personnel changes, this means the recruitment of at least two players before the window ends (I'd vote for a mobile athletic Central Midfielder and a left footed Defender capable of playing LCB / LWB) and the removal of some players from the starting line up (sorry to Anderson and Gillesphey and temporary exclusion of Ramsay).

The benefits of sacking Jones and bringing someone else in are a potential 'new manager bounce' and a mood change. This feels like a short-term solution and I really don't know who I'd want to replace him.

The risk is that a new manager struggles to get up to speed, can't change the squad as the window is shut and fails to make any impact. Then we're stuck. We've built a team in Jones' style, allowed him and the recruitment team another full transfer window, and now a new manager has to come in and work with those players. If you look at any poorly run team in the country they bounce from manager to manager with different philosophies, different tactical styles, and no overarching direction. If we lose to Leicester and sack Jones we are bringing someone in with almost no ability to change the squad. It's a huge risk. 

Putting any and all of NJ's credit in the bank aside, it's a truly awful time to bring someone in and I have no idea who that person should be. 

IAgree

raytreacy said:

The atmosphere at the moment with the players towards Jones is not good. Docherty is not the only player who has fallen out with Jones. Numerous arguments at the training ground. This is coming from a very good source. I wouldn’t put it on here otherwise.
Jones needs to get together with the players and clear the air. You could tell from Saturday that something was wrong. I have also been told some more things which I was told I couldn’t post on a public Forum.

Oh go on! Please! Give us a clue?!

IAgree

Redvaliant said:

raytreacy said:

The atmosphere at the moment with the players towards Jones is not good. Docherty is not the only player who has fallen out with Jones. Numerous arguments at the training ground. This is coming from a very good source. I wouldn’t put it on here otherwise.
Jones needs to get together with the players and clear the air. You could tell from Saturday that something was wrong. I have also been told some more things which I was told I couldn’t post on a public Forum.

Can well believe it. Jones comes over as someone who shows signs of having narcissistic personality disorder. Having anyone in a workplace like that, let alone a manager can quickly turn a workplace toxic.

He has a diagnosable psychological disorder based upon third hand rumours of a spat at a training ground, a bad run of form and your impression?! Seriously?? I”m going to go out on limb a say there are a few narcissists in football, a fair few egos and more than the odd spat here and there, to put it mildly!

I sometimes have problems with the system he plays, his selections and on occasion his tactics, however let’s keep focused upon the football!

ElfsborgAddick

benjest1989 said:

clb74 said:

Was never going to be pretty.
The aim this season was to stay up.
I was a pup  the last time we beat Millwall , over the past 30 years how many times have we gave Millwall a game?
We pick up 9 points in February and 85% of posters on this thread will change their tune.

What makes you think we will pick up 9 points in February? We are playing QPR, Stoke, Portsmouth, Southampton, West Brom, Wrexham. Form - 2 wins in 14 

Despite his (very)dour demeanor he's an optimistic chap.

Gravesend_Addick

Nathan Jones strikes me as a very stubborn man, so for him to admit to himself that the squad needs a massive overhaul if we're to stay up is a big deal.  It's a big ask to overhaul the squad in January.

This will make or break his tenure with us.  If it fails, I'm sure he'll be shown the door.  Interesting times ahead

The Prince-e-Paul

Looks like he's been told that he can loan in it out, but needs to keep the budget the same. Smacks of rearranging the deck chairs on a sinking ship. 

The owners may have said, if he fucks it up he's gone. Wonder if there is a relegation break clause in his contract. 

Garrymanilow

Gravesend_Addick said:

Nathan Jones strikes me as a very stubborn man, so for him to admit to himself that the squad needs a massive overhaul if we're to stay up is a big deal.  It's a big ask to overhaul the squad in January.

This will make or break his tenure with us.  If it fails, I'm sure he'll be shown the door.  Interesting times ahead

Does it count as a massive overhaul yet? We've replaced a recalled RWB with a RWB, a LWB to replace the dead space where a LWB should have been, a RWB/winger who hasn't played this calendar year and last started on 20th December with a RWB/winger, a striker who hasn't started since Boxing Day with a striker and moved the third keeper deckchairs. If Fevrier plays a lot then that could make a change for us but for the most part it looks like fringe players being moved on and hopefully replaced with signings who will play a bit more than the ones who are being shipped out. I don't think it will feel like a proper overhaul until/if we change something in the midfield, everything else is around the edges really

thenewbie

Garrymanilow said:

Gravesend_Addick said:

Nathan Jones strikes me as a very stubborn man, so for him to admit to himself that the squad needs a massive overhaul if we're to stay up is a big deal.  It's a big ask to overhaul the squad in January.

This will make or break his tenure with us.  If it fails, I'm sure he'll be shown the door.  Interesting times ahead

Does it count as a massive overhaul yet? We've replaced a recalled RWB with a RWB, a LWB to replace the dead space where a LWB should have been, a RWB/winger who hasn't played this calendar year and last started on 20th December with a RWB/winger, a striker who hasn't started since Boxing Day with a striker and moved the third keeper deckchairs. If Fevrier plays a lot then that could make a change for us but for the most part it looks like fringe players being moved on and hopefully replaced with signings who will play a bit more than the ones who are being shipped out. I don't think it will feel like a proper overhaul until/if we change something in the midfield, everything else is around the edges really

I don't think I completely agree, the midfield wasn't a problem at the start of the season (or at least it wasn't causing problems we couldn't work around) when we had a functioning defence. In terms of pure numbers it might not be much of an overhaul but we've definitely changed it up in WHO the players are.

I'm not 100% convinced it's going to work (50% at best if I'm honest) but I'm going to give Jones credit for trying to shake it up and not try and fkog what was very clearly a dead horse. The caveat is that if this 2.0 version of "his" squad does not work he's surely getting his p45 as if he wants 100% power/control then he takes 100% responsibility.

LargeAddick

A squad churn in January is very risky. Some bold decisions being made. Puts NJ in the last chance saloon. Still get relegated and his position is in serious doubt.

llama_child_21cws

Only good thing is that at least he is correcting it and not being stubborn and forcing it, if he feels like it isn't going to work

Nicholas

With all these in going's and out going's of players, the rest of the season is going to be player after player breaking down, having a few weeks off then coming back in again. we will have even more changes to the side and not have a settled side. The manager still wont ever consider trying a different approach. We have shit loads of strikers playing it out for one spot as TC will now be back up there starting each game.

Why this poxy manager couldn't have tried 4-3-3 once with TC and Apter on the wings is beyond me. 

There is so much Jones has done this season which is just so baffling and quite frankly shit.

MrBurns

He's a stubborn man whose chickens will come home to roost