What do you believe in? ie, Religion? Atheism?

bazjonster said:

“WHEN religion is not encouraging strife it is acting as a drug which numbs the human conscience and fills the human brain with escapist fantasies. . . . [It] causes human beings to be narrow, superstitious, full of hatred and fear.” The former Methodist missionary who wrote that added: “These charges are true. There is bad and good religion"

Long live Richard Dawkins - give me something tangible any day!

Each to their own and I totally respect and am fully tolerant of individual views and beliefs (maybe I am jealous that I have no faith or religious belief). But when you look at the majority of conflict in the world you can map its foundations back to religion and the intolerance of diversity. In my book, if there is such a good and great all encompassing being (in whatever religious form you choose/believe), he/she really need to have a word with themselves for allowing the world to get into such a state!

All in my opinion of course, but anyone basing their views/beliefs on the fantasy writings of historical literature that are unfounded (not tangible) are living in cloud cuckoo land. Or conversely, maybe I am for not having religious views or beliefs?

My original post has been endorsed by the great Fanny! My life is complete!!! ;-)

E

A bit of A, D and F for me.

Although I was Christened and celebrate Christmas, I never attended a Church service on a Sunday with my parents. Which I am thankful for as no religion was ever forced upon me and also I'm thankful I was never sent to a religous school. I do loosely consider myself Christian still but I do sometimes think if i was born somewhere else say the US or Lebanon, I could easily be Jewish or Muslim and still have faith in them exactly the same amount as I do in Christianity, as nothing has acually happened in my life (apart from where I was born and to whom) which have effected my choice of religoin. So I think it's safe to say I am pretty disengaged with my own religous beliefs.

Having said that I'm asboloutely fascinated by all religion, the stories, the festivals, the teaching and the architecture. Particularly the Abrahamic religions. There is so much of religion to discover and that a person can learn from it which doesn't include believing in any spiritual being and just following its teachings on how to be a good human being. It really does amaze me and anger me how people some people can be so ignorant, stupid and offensive to just dismiss it.

The obvious downside is people do stupid things in the name of religion and in this day and age maybe the world would be a better place without religion, maybe not. However we certainly wouldn't be here today without it. We may indeed still be here but our idea of civilization may be completely different, it may be better, it may be worse, we'll never know.

sadiejane1981 said:

The Christian response to the suffering in the world varies, I too studied philosophy at degreeth level and at the time thought the whole "if God is all knowing and all powerful then he can't be all good, if he is all good and all powerful then he isn't all powerful and if he is all powerful and all good then he must not be all knowing" was absolute spot on. However now I see things differently, I believe that we as a universe are left to our own devices, he doesn't make us rich or give us good health but gives us the strength to fight illness and the tools for wealth, he doesn't stop natural disasters and lets nature run is course but helps us and guides us through it. I don't think God caused the slaying of innocent children in the war, he would have been there for them after death and kept their souls safe, he would have given the parents strength to carry on and hope in the faith that there is life after death and so on. I will stop here because I don't really want to preach on CL, just that for every theory and opinion there will be an opposing one.

Sadie, I totally respect your views and this is a great post. But please forgive me and I don't wish this to be construed as insulting, but the area I have emboldened highlights what I believe is just a religious cop out! If this 'god' character was so great and so loving and so peaceful, I just don't believe that he/she/it would sit back and let all that you allude to happen! That's why I just don't get it and as long as we continue to have no evidential confirmation my stance won't change. If he/she/it does exist then I would suggest that he/she/it isn't as great and peaceful and loving as followers believe and has a pretty unsavoury sense of humour (as articulated by Depeche Mode in the song Blasphemous Rumours).

Totally admire and respect your views though. Your posts re this subject are well balanced and justifiably passionate.

Leroy Ambrose said:

Agnostic. Perfectly willing to accept the existence of a 'God' of some description. Like to see some evidence of it first though. And yes, I'm aware that's a contradiction in terms because 'faith' requires no proof.

I do believe that organised religion is bollocks, however. It's an outmoded, outdated concept that's no longer relevant today.

Summed up my feelings perfectly

bazjonster said:

sadiejane1981 said:

The Christian response to the suffering in the world varies, I too studied philosophy at degreeth level and at the time thought the whole "if God is all knowing and all powerful then he can't be all good, if he is all good and all powerful then he isn't all powerful and if he is all powerful and all good then he must not be all knowing" was absolute spot on. However now I see things differently, I believe that we as a universe are left to our own devices, he doesn't make us rich or give us good health but gives us the strength to fight illness and the tools for wealth, he doesn't stop natural disasters and lets nature run is course but helps us and guides us through it. I don't think God caused the slaying of innocent children in the war, he would have been there for them after death and kept their souls safe, he would have given the parents strength to carry on and hope in the faith that there is life after death and so on. I will stop here because I don't really want to preach on CL, just that for every theory and opinion there will be an opposing one.

Sadie, I totally respect your views and this is a great post. But please forgive me and I don't wish this to be construed as insulting, but the area I have emboldened highlights what I believe is just a religious cop out! If this 'god' character was so great and so loving and so peaceful, I just don't believe that he/she/it would sit back and let all that you allude to happen! That's why I just don't get it and as long as we continue to have no evidential confirmation my stance won't change. If he/she/it does exist then I would suggest that he/she/it isn't as great and peaceful and loving as followers believe and has a pretty unsavoury sense of humour (as articulated by Depeche Mode in the song Blasphemous Rumours).

Totally admire and respect your views though. Your posts re this subject are well balanced and justifiably passionate.

Thank you I appreciate it.

I actually really do understand the atheist views as I used to have them, I also don't expect those non-believers to understand how or why we believe, it's something that is hard to explain and just hits you, suddenly it just makes sense, my life changed for the better when I found God, that is a fact. But to the intelligent atheist mind it's completely non-sensical, I understand that all I can say to people is we believe what we want to but I opened my mind once and it hit me. Some will understand, some won't, I am happy with my life and my choices and confident in my own beliefs, so much so that nobody else's beliefs bother me. As I said diversity is an amazing thing and shouldn't be frowned upon.

One God, Christopher Hitchens.

Hmm. He did have a certain amount of flexibility in that arena.

bazjonster said:

bazjonster said:

“WHEN religion is not encouraging strife it is acting as a drug which numbs the human conscience and fills the human brain with escapist fantasies. . . . [It] causes human beings to be narrow, superstitious, full of hatred and fear.” The former Methodist missionary who wrote that added: “These charges are true. There is bad and good religion"

Long live Richard Dawkins - give me something tangible any day!

Each to their own and I totally respect and am fully tolerant of individual views and beliefs (maybe I am jealous that I have no faith or religious belief). But when you look at the majority of conflict in the world you can map its foundations back to religion and the intolerance of diversity. In my book, if there is such a good and great all encompassing being (in whatever religious form you choose/believe), he/she really need to have a word with themselves for allowing the world to get into such a state!

All in my opinion of course, but anyone basing their views/beliefs on the fantasy writings of historical literature that are unfounded (not tangible) are living in cloud cuckoo land. Or conversely, maybe I am for not having religious views or beliefs?

My original post has been endorsed by the great Fanny! My life is complete!!! ;-)

My pleasure, bazza.

Credit where it's due.

So many Lifers have posted what I want to say but in this instance, I don't seem to have the words unlike yourself.

One of the first things I remember Mr F saying when we first met was that there would be no wars, if there was no religion.

Mind you, we've been fighting ever since - for the last 44 years ...

:-)

I am a Christian, but one who believes that evolution is a fact and that Christianity does not have secret access to all wisdom. Every religion (including atheism, which, as opposed to agnosticism is also a form of faith) has something to teach us about ourselves and where we have come from.

Exactly. The smartest dog in the world can't comprehend rocket science.

We're insignificant in the grand scheme of things and humans in simpler times made up gods to help them explain their purpose in the universe when we probably wouldn't be able to understand it even if it was laid out in front of us.

And for all those that believe in "God" that's great, but you're still atheists as well, unless you believe in the other few thousand that have been recorded in man's history... so what makes your "God" the real one? I suspect because you were brought up in a house hold where it was just the accepted thing, or because at some point in your life you've been at a low point and looked to religion for comfort and strength. That's not a bad thing of course but it doesn't make your "God" any more real than any others.

My position is simple... I'm 100% atheist but if there was ever conclusive proof of a higher being I'd believe... until that point I'm afraid the concept of Zeus is as believable as Jesus.

Having faith is the best argument any religious person could have, as nothing else is tangible or provable... and unfortunately having faith in what someone who believes in invisible cloud wizards says isn't something I can do...

I've been an atheist all my life but went to a church school and have been in situations where the emotions of a group do make you feel like there's some higher being present or affecting you... but it's exactly the same feeling I get when I'm in a crowd of Addicks away from home while we're attacking down the wing. Unfortunately if someone is looking for "proof" this can get misinterpreted as something else though.

I also don't get the argument that the bits of the Bible/Quran/etc that no longer stand up to any sort of scrutiny (i.e. God encouraging murder, rape, turning men into goats, etc. in the Old Testament) are dismissed by believers as "oh you shoudn't take that stuff literally", while the other stuff like coming back from the dead should be believed.

There are so many people that I respect that are hugely religious and on the one hand I respect them for their views but on the other I find it depressing that as a society intelligent people can still be brainwashed in that way. The younger generation, in the West at least, are putting their faith in science and technology more than church going and gods and I just hope that in generations to come the idea of going to war and killing people over which invisible super powered being you believe in will be a laughable a thing of the past...