Apologies, I though you knew Seth Plum as he sells VOTV.
I didn't use the word "intimidated", you did. I stand by what I said that some of the advice has been offered in an aggressive manner although I still think she is missing a trick by not speaking with people. She might learn something and it would deflect the criticism that she won't listen.
But I repeat that I feel that she is a new manager and like a lot of new managers is likely to feel less that totally confident in that role. I'd offer some 1-2-1 business coaching but I don't think they CAFC can afford me.
I stand by all my criticism of Ben Kensell's actions and was delighted to see him leave.
There may be all sorts of reasons and mitigations for what I saw as communication errors last season, but inexperience shouldn’t be a reason for people not to react to them. She is clearly an intelligent woman and she has, I assume, a well paid position that carries responsibilities. If she communicates better, I’m sure people will warm to her. I think things were going well she enjoyed the job and was happy for it to show how clever the network was, then when things went badly she got a bit flustered. This may have contributed to the way she worded a certain statement that still has me seething. It could have been put in a far better way – around trusting the owner, that he does have the best interests of the club at heart and does care about fans views but needs to be given a chance to show it. Much more diplomatic than basically telling fans their views don’t matter and they just have to lump it. Even if that is the reality of the situation.
I don’t think it is fair to say the criticism was aggressive – not everybody was an angry fan on a train who had had a few jars and had witnessed an abject display. And some would being on that train brave, I would call it foolish, to put herself in that situation. But it was her first proper season and it was certainly a case of being thrown in at the deep end for her. I suspect Roland was happy she faced the problems she did as he may feel that is part of her learning process. Wanting to be liked is a natural desire, but not always possible for her position if all isn’t going well on the pitch.
The more I think about it the more I feel we've done some great business in selling Gomez. Of course ideally we want to keep a hold of our best players, especially when they're home-grown but we've supposedly got around £10m for a lad that's just turned 18 and we're in no position to turn down that type of money for a young player when we're finishing mid table in the second tier of English football. Let's be realistic. Duchatelet apparently selling Liege is huge for us as well, perhaps this means even more money is going to be invested in to the squad... strangely enough, after everything that has gone on I am starting to trust both RD and KM - not sure what Bauer is like as a player but he certainly looks the real deal for the Championship. A few more faces are expected to be seen at the Valley this Summer so let's just see what happens instead of taking the negatives out of everything.
The more I think about it the more I feel we've done some great business in selling Gomez. Of course ideally we want to keep a hold of our best players, especially when they're home-grown but we've supposedly got around £10m for a lad that's just turned 18 and we're in no position to turn down that type of money for a young player when we're finishing mid table in the second tier of English football. Let's be realistic. Duchatelet apparently selling Liege is huge for us as well, perhaps this means even more money is going to be invested in to the squad... strangely enough, after everything that has gone on I am starting to trust both RD and KM - not sure what Bauer is like as a player but he certainly looks the real deal for the Championship. A few more faces are expected to be seen at the Valley this Summer so let's just see what happens instead of taking the negatives out of everything.
Its the rumoured combined value upfront/nextyear/addons
Thanks Raz. Nothing wrong with being an optimist I guess...
I will go with the reports in the press advising 3.5m unless those posters who insist it is higher give up a source rather than lording it over the rest of us gullible fools who are not ITK.
Why bring me into it fer gawdssakes? My criticism of SW was his gigantic wage hoovering up loads of season ticket money for seemingly no work. I wrote to SW directly at the time to try to discover if he did any work for his very very substantial wage. That was always my agenda and it was years ago, so enjoyable as the discussion is on here, I have not initiated any of it, and ought not to be invoked as part of it.
Apologies, I though you knew Seth Plum as he sells VOTV.
I didn't use the word "intimidated", you did. I stand by what I said that some of the advice has been offered in an aggressive manner although I still think she is missing a trick by not speaking with people. She might learn something and it would deflect the criticism that she won't listen.
But I repeat that I feel that she is a new manager and like a lot of new managers is likely to feel less that totally confident in that role. I'd offer some 1-2-1 business coaching but I don't think they CAFC can afford me.
I stand by all my criticism of Ben Kensell's actions and was delighted to see him leave.
And that makes me responsible for his input to Charlton Life?!
I don't accept your word "aggressive" but perception is all. Do you really think then that Sue, for example, is "aggressive"? Most approaches made to KM over 18 months have been private and they are numerous and diverse. To my knowledge they have been friendly and constructive - I doubt if any have been "aggressive".
The RD regime did itself a lot of damage in the first few months, which as far as I can see wasn't KM's fault, but I think her subsequent determination to keep a significant number of experienced people at arm's length makes no business sense, whether or not it's the product of insecurity.
At this stage I don't think there is much point in expecting a change of attitude, but equally you can't blame the various people who have been trying.
Is there really a debate happening about whether someone did or didn't say something in 2009. How do you even remember? I can't remember what happened yesterday let alone 6 years ago
Why bring me into it fer gawdssakes? My criticism of SW was his gigantic wage hoovering up loads of season ticket money for seemingly no work. I wrote to SW directly at the time to try to discover if he did any work for his very very substantial wage. That was always my agenda and it was years ago, so enjoyable as the discussion is on here, I have not initiated any of it, and ought not to be invoked as part of it.
Don't disagree on any of those issues. Many of those errors were due to her inexperience AND the poor advice of other managers (not our mutual friend who you referred to early) such as BK and SB. She has responsibility for that and so has to take the criticism.
Advice from Kensell & Bradshaw - incompetence & beyond parody don't even come close! if KM really was listening to those two, its no wonder mistakes were made
Why bring me into it fer gawdssakes? My criticism of SW was his gigantic wage hoovering up loads of season ticket money for seemingly no work. I wrote to SW directly at the time to try to discover if he did any work for his very very substantial wage. That was always my agenda and it was years ago, so enjoyable as the discussion is on here, I have not initiated any of it, and ought not to be invoked as part of it.
But you were the one who started the whole Geordie Smiler thing with your remark about his always smiling and somehow not being suitable as he written about Millwall. If you'd just stuck to what he did or didn't do fair enough but you didn't.
The more I think about it the more I feel we've done some great business in selling Gomez. Of course ideally we want to keep a hold of our best players, especially when they're home-grown but we've supposedly got around £10m for a lad that's just turned 18 and we're in no position to turn down that type of money for a young player when we're finishing mid table in the second tier of English football. Let's be realistic. Duchatelet apparently selling Liege is huge for us as well, perhaps this means even more money is going to be invested in to the squad... strangely enough, after everything that has gone on I am starting to trust both RD and KM - not sure what Bauer is like as a player but he certainly looks the real deal for the Championship. A few more faces are expected to be seen at the Valley this Summer so let's just see what happens instead of taking the negatives out of everything.
Its the rumoured combined value upfront/nextyear/addons
Thanks Raz. Nothing wrong with being an optimist I guess...
I will go with the reports in the press advising 3.5m unless those posters who insist it is higher give up a source rather than lording it over the rest of us gullible fools who are not ITK.
I believe a club employee over The BBC. Have you seen their match reports on Charlton?!!!!??!!
Don't disagree on any of those issues. Many of those errors were due to her inexperience AND the poor advice of other managers (not our mutual friend who you referred to early) such as BK and SB. She has responsibility for that and so has to take the criticism.
Advice from Kensell & Bradshaw - incompetence & beyond parody don't even come close! if KM really was listening to those two, its no wonder mistakes were made
In fairness, I think she saw through Bradshaw very early on.
Why bring me into it fer gawdssakes? My criticism of SW was his gigantic wage hoovering up loads of season ticket money for seemingly no work. I wrote to SW directly at the time to try to discover if he did any work for his very very substantial wage. That was always my agenda and it was years ago, so enjoyable as the discussion is on here, I have not initiated any of it, and ought not to be invoked as part of it.
But you were the one who started the whole Geordie Smiler thing with your remark about his always smiling and somehow not being suitable as he written about Millwall. If you'd just stuck to what he did or didn't do fair enough but you didn't.
You have it wrong. What exactly was the 'whole Geordie Smiler' thing? My memory was it was a nickname attributed by others. I also would not have said he was unsuitable because he had written about Millwall, that is a misrepresentation, but if you would like to show me chapter and verse I will admit it if it happened. I repeat I wrote to SW (twice), and did not get any response at all, and you may also remember I wrote to him at your behest because you felt he ought not to be criticised on a message board, but to take it up directly, which as I say I did. My issue with him at the time (and the numbers are a bit hazy) was that it would take about 3000 season ticket holders to fund his wage, and what work was he doing for all that money. Interesting that you have an internal code as to what is 'fair enough', the problem with that is you risk thinking that only your approach is the 'fair enough' one, and if others don't share that approach they are unfair, enough?
You are fond of telling others to move on, yet you rehash all this stuff.
Apologies, I though you knew Seth Plum as he sells VOTV.
I didn't use the word "intimidated", you did. I stand by what I said that some of the advice has been offered in an aggressive manner although I still think she is missing a trick by not speaking with people. She might learn something and it would deflect the criticism that she won't listen.
But I repeat that I feel that she is a new manager and like a lot of new managers is likely to feel less that totally confident in that role. I'd offer some 1-2-1 business coaching but I don't think they CAFC can afford me.
I stand by all my criticism of Ben Kensell's actions and was delighted to see him leave.
And that makes me responsible for his input to Charlton Life?!
I don't accept your word "aggressive" but perception is all. Do you really think then that Sue, for example, is "aggressive"? Most approaches made to KM over 18 months have been private and they are numerous and diverse. To my knowledge they have been friendly and constructive - I doubt if any have been "aggressive".
The RD regime did itself a lot of damage in the first few months, which as far as I can see wasn't KM's fault, but I think her subsequent determination to keep a significant number of experienced people at arm's length makes no business sense, whether or not it's the product of insecurity.
At this stage I don't think there is much point in expecting a change of attitude, but equally you can't blame the various people who have been trying.
I think emails demanding a response by the end of the working day are aggressive and self -defeating but that was nothing to do with or connected with you. I think public questions at the VIP meeting demanding a meeting with Roland over her head were aggressive and her reaction was as you would expect. Again nothing to do with you.
But neither do I think "you're incompetent but I think you should speak to me and others" is a very subtle approach either. I agree totally that excluding experienced people makes no business sense and have said the same to KM at Bromley Addicks. However, if, as I suspect, there is an element of imposter syndrome then that should be taken into account. In doing so you and others might find a way to engage with her.
I also think she has to listen to RD and collaborative working does not appear to be the management style he role models for her (sorry for slipping into management jargon again).
That is a real shame. Most businesses would kill for the amount of customer interest and free advice and effort offered by fans to CAFC and KM and RD are missing a huge trick in not taking up at least some of those offers. But I can see SOME of the reasons why that is and why SOME people and groups aren't seen in a positive light due to their own actions and words.
Why bring me into it fer gawdssakes? My criticism of SW was his gigantic wage hoovering up loads of season ticket money for seemingly no work. I wrote to SW directly at the time to try to discover if he did any work for his very very substantial wage. That was always my agenda and it was years ago, so enjoyable as the discussion is on here, I have not initiated any of it, and ought not to be invoked as part of it.
But you were the one who started the whole Geordie Smiler thing with your remark about his always smiling and somehow not being suitable as he written about Millwall. If you'd just stuck to what he did or didn't do fair enough but you didn't.
You have it wrong. What exactly was the 'whole Geordie Smiler' thing? My memory was it was a nickname attributed by others. I also would not have said he was unsuitable because he had written about Millwall, that is a misrepresentation, but if you would like to show me chapter and verse I will admit it if it happened. I repeat I wrote to SW (twice), and did not get any response at all, and you may also remember I wrote to him at your behest because you felt he ought not to be criticised on a message board, but to take it up directly, which as I say I did. My issue with him at the time (and the numbers are a bit hazy) was that it would take about 3000 season ticket holders to fund his wage, and what work was he doing for all that money. Interesting that you have an internal code as to what is 'fair enough', the problem with that is you risk thinking that only your approach is the 'fair enough' one, and if others don't share that approach they are unfair, enough?
You are fond of telling others to move on, yet you rehash all this stuff.
Leave it out Seth, incredible rewriting of history there.
I think her reluctance to listen to others in partly because of the often aggressive way advice has been offered and partly because of a very typical insecurity of a new manager in feeling that she has to be seen as able to do the job. It's called "imposter syndrome" if you want the management jargon.
And the third possible reason that her / their non-engagement approach to some people / groups has been unduely influenced by the input of other people, with different agendas.
Why bring me into it fer gawdssakes? My criticism of SW was his gigantic wage hoovering up loads of season ticket money for seemingly no work. I wrote to SW directly at the time to try to discover if he did any work for his very very substantial wage. That was always my agenda and it was years ago, so enjoyable as the discussion is on here, I have not initiated any of it, and ought not to be invoked as part of it.
But you were the one who started the whole Geordie Smiler thing with your remark about his always smiling and somehow not being suitable as he written about Millwall. If you'd just stuck to what he did or didn't do fair enough but you didn't.
You have it wrong. What exactly was the 'whole Geordie Smiler' thing? My memory was it was a nickname attributed by others. I also would not have said he was unsuitable because he had written about Millwall, that is a misrepresentation, but if you would like to show me chapter and verse I will admit it if it happened. I repeat I wrote to SW (twice), and did not get any response at all, and you may also remember I wrote to him at your behest because you felt he ought not to be criticised on a message board, but to take it up directly, which as I say I did. My issue with him at the time (and the numbers are a bit hazy) was that it would take about 3000 season ticket holders to fund his wage, and what work was he doing for all that money. Interesting that you have an internal code as to what is 'fair enough', the problem with that is you risk thinking that only your approach is the 'fair enough' one, and if others don't share that approach they are unfair, enough?
You are fond of telling others to move on, yet you rehash all this stuff.
Leave it out Seth, incredible rewriting of history there.
No idea what you mean by "internal code"
Not a rewriting of history, simply a rebuttal of what you have attributed to me.
'Internal code', which is something most of us have, and I mentioned it in response to you saying 'fair enough'. Most of us have an internal code as to what is 'fair' but it isn't the same for everybody, and you needn't take the trouble to tell me what aspects of what I have written is 'fair' as you measure fairness against your perspective, not mine.
Comments
I didn't use the word "intimidated", you did. I stand by what I said that some of the advice has been offered in an aggressive manner although I still think she is missing a trick by not speaking with people. She might learn something and it would deflect the criticism that she won't listen.
But I repeat that I feel that she is a new manager and like a lot of new managers is likely to feel less that totally confident in that role. I'd offer some 1-2-1 business coaching but I don't think they CAFC can afford me.
I stand by all my criticism of Ben Kensell's actions and was delighted to see him leave.
I don’t think it is fair to say the criticism was aggressive – not everybody was an angry fan on a train who had had a few jars and had witnessed an abject display. And some would being on that train brave, I would call it foolish, to put herself in that situation. But it was her first proper season and it was certainly a case of being thrown in at the deep end for her. I suspect Roland was happy she faced the problems she did as he may feel that is part of her learning process. Wanting to be liked is a natural desire, but not always possible for her position if all isn’t going well on the pitch.
My criticism of SW was his gigantic wage hoovering up loads of season ticket money for seemingly no work. I wrote to SW directly at the time to try to discover if he did any work for his very very substantial wage.
That was always my agenda and it was years ago, so enjoyable as the discussion is on here, I have not initiated any of it, and ought not to be invoked as part of it.
I don't accept your word "aggressive" but perception is all. Do you really think then that Sue, for example, is "aggressive"? Most approaches made to KM over 18 months have been private and they are numerous and diverse. To my knowledge they have been friendly and constructive - I doubt if any have been "aggressive".
The RD regime did itself a lot of damage in the first few months, which as far as I can see wasn't KM's fault, but I think her subsequent determination to keep a significant number of experienced people at arm's length makes no business sense, whether or not it's the product of insecurity.
At this stage I don't think there is much point in expecting a change of attitude, but equally you can't blame the various people who have been trying.
How do you even remember? I can't remember what happened yesterday let alone 6 years ago
Advice from Kensell & Bradshaw - incompetence & beyond parody don't even come close! if KM really was listening to those two, its no wonder mistakes were made
I just want to know if Katrien has dropped any further hints whether another signing is imminent ..... and who is it?
Welcome to CL mate.
What exactly was the 'whole Geordie Smiler' thing?
My memory was it was a nickname attributed by others.
I also would not have said he was unsuitable because he had written about Millwall, that is a misrepresentation, but if you would like to show me chapter and verse I will admit it if it happened.
I repeat I wrote to SW (twice), and did not get any response at all, and you may also remember I wrote to him at your behest because you felt he ought not to be criticised on a message board, but to take it up directly, which as I say I did.
My issue with him at the time (and the numbers are a bit hazy) was that it would take about 3000 season ticket holders to fund his wage, and what work was he doing for all that money.
Interesting that you have an internal code as to what is 'fair enough', the problem with that is you risk thinking that only your approach is the 'fair enough' one, and if others don't share that approach they are unfair, enough?
You are fond of telling others to move on, yet you rehash all this stuff.
Fair comment - Kensell was out of the same mould, just a little smarter in keeping it hidden for longer.
But neither do I think "you're incompetent but I think you should speak to me and others" is a very subtle approach either. I agree totally that excluding experienced people makes no business sense and have said the same to KM at Bromley Addicks. However, if, as I suspect, there is an element of imposter syndrome then that should be taken into account. In doing so you and others might find a way to engage with her.
I also think she has to listen to RD and collaborative working does not appear to be the management style he role models for her (sorry for slipping into management jargon again).
That is a real shame. Most businesses would kill for the amount of customer interest and free advice and effort offered by fans to CAFC and KM and RD are missing a huge trick in not taking up at least some of those offers. But I can see SOME of the reasons why that is and why SOME people and groups aren't seen in a positive light due to their own actions and words.
Carry on...
No idea what you mean by "internal code"
Leave it out Seth, incredible rewriting of history there.
No idea what you mean by "internal code"
;-)
'Internal code', which is something most of us have, and I mentioned it in response to you saying 'fair enough'. Most of us have an internal code as to what is 'fair' but it isn't the same for everybody, and you needn't take the trouble to tell me what aspects of what I have written is 'fair' as you measure fairness against your perspective, not mine.