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Deaths of horses at Cheltenham race course

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  • Covered_End_Lad
    Covered_End_Lad Posts: 5,730
    CAFCsayer said:

    Would you rather die at 40, having lived in a mansion your whole life, eating Michelin star food on a daily basis and getting noshed off by Cheryl Cole on request, or die at 99 with nothing to your name and living on the street your whole life? Same logic applies.

    Where do I sign?!
  • CAFCsayer
    CAFCsayer Posts: 10,238
    DaveMehmet said:

    Anyone got a video of Cheryl Cole noshing horses off I can borrow?

    I've got a home video with her... If you cover up my face and body the resemblance is uncanny.
  • DaveMehmet
    DaveMehmet Posts: 21,621
    Not sure where I stand on this. I used to be a keen rider so know how well the horses are treated but it does seem wrong that a few should die doing it. The motor racing analogy doesn't hold up though as the drivers are doing it by choice.
  • superclive98
    superclive98 Posts: 4,791
    PL54 said:

    CAFCsayer said:

    Would you rather die at 40, having lived in a mansion your whole life, eating Michelin star food on a daily basis and getting noshed off by Cheryl Cole on request, or die at 99 with nothing to your name and living on the street your whole life? Same logic applies.

    That is bullshit. Or perhaps horse shit.

    Is the thinking that these animals are bread to be raced and death is an unfortunate side effect ?
    Yes it is.
    If it wasn't for racing they wouldn't exist. In fact, other than wild ponies, why would there be the need for any breeding of horses?
  • McBobbin
    McBobbin Posts: 12,052
    DaveMehmet said:

    Not sure where I stand on this. I used to be a keen rider so know how well the horses are treated but it does seem wrong that a few should die doing it. The motor racing analogy doesn't hold up though as the drivers are doing it by choice.

    Couldn't agree more. I know that the horses are treated (in the UK at least) better than many humans. They enjoy racing, but ultimately have no say over dying for it. I'm not sure about this one
  • alan dugdale
    alan dugdale Posts: 3,079
    alan dugdale said:

    Serious question. Where would the 119 horses due to run today and indeed the horses entered at the other meetings, be, if not in the care of racehorse trainers ?

    Anyone ?
  • McBobbin
    McBobbin Posts: 12,052
    alan dugdale said:

    alan dugdale said:

    Serious question. Where would the 119 horses due to run today and indeed the horses entered at the other meetings, be, if not in the care of racehorse trainers ?

    Anyone ?
    Presumably not bred in the first place?

    Is flat racing less dangerous for the horses? I guess there's degrees of danger
  • superclive98
    superclive98 Posts: 4,791
    alan dugdale said:

    alan dugdale said:

    Serious question. Where would the 119 horses due to run today and indeed the horses entered at the other meetings, be, if not in the care of racehorse trainers ?

    Anyone ?
    No answer, as they know that they wouldn't exist if they weren't in racing.
  • i_b_b_o_r_g
    i_b_b_o_r_g Posts: 18,948
    It's like any domesticated animal (Incl. farm animals), they only exist because they have worth, either as food, or in these horses cases, in sport. If we never ate meat or raced horses, they'd mostly be extinct within 50 years
  • PL54
    PL54 Posts: 10,757
    superclive98 said:

    PL54 said:

    CAFCsayer said:

    Would you rather die at 40, having lived in a mansion your whole life, eating Michelin star food on a daily basis and getting noshed off by Cheryl Cole on request, or die at 99 with nothing to your name and living on the street your whole life? Same logic applies.

    That is bullshit. Or perhaps horse shit.

    Is the thinking that these animals are bread to be raced and death is an unfortunate side effect ?
    Yes it is.
    If it wasn't for racing they wouldn't exist. In fact, other than wild ponies, why would there be the need for any breeding of horses?
    My dog wouldn't be alive if the breeder hadn't thought she could sell it to me but I am not about to make her run down the road taking the risk of death.

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  • cafcdave123
    cafcdave123 Posts: 11,491
    .
    alan dugdale said:

    alan dugdale said:

    Serious question. Where would the 119 horses due to run today and indeed the horses entered at the other meetings, be, if not in the care of racehorse trainers ?

    Anyone ?
    They wouldn't have been breeding them so they would not be here.

    Would you rather never exist or die doing what you love?
  • alan dugdale
    alan dugdale Posts: 3,079
    McBobbin said:

    alan dugdale said:

    alan dugdale said:

    Serious question. Where would the 119 horses due to run today and indeed the horses entered at the other meetings, be, if not in the care of racehorse trainers ?

    Anyone ?
    Presumably not bred in the first place?

    Is flat racing less dangerous for the horses? I guess there's degrees of danger
    Thanks for the reply. I was hoping one of the objectors who seem to know so much would reply too.

    As I stated above, the horse I part owned was seriously injured when running not jumping.
  • superclive98
    superclive98 Posts: 4,791
    PL54 said:

    superclive98 said:

    PL54 said:

    CAFCsayer said:

    Would you rather die at 40, having lived in a mansion your whole life, eating Michelin star food on a daily basis and getting noshed off by Cheryl Cole on request, or die at 99 with nothing to your name and living on the street your whole life? Same logic applies.

    That is bullshit. Or perhaps horse shit.

    Is the thinking that these animals are bread to be raced and death is an unfortunate side effect ?
    Yes it is.
    If it wasn't for racing they wouldn't exist. In fact, other than wild ponies, why would there be the need for any breeding of horses?
    My dog wouldn't be alive if the breeder hadn't thought she could sell it to me but I am not about to make her run down the road taking the risk of death.
    I'm sure that your dog would rather be running free than being kept indoors or held on a lead. So, is it okay that the dog, effectively a slave since you bought it, does only what you want it do? That's exploitation of an animal isn't it?
  • PL54
    PL54 Posts: 10,757
    superclive98 said:

    PL54 said:

    superclive98 said:

    PL54 said:

    CAFCsayer said:

    Would you rather die at 40, having lived in a mansion your whole life, eating Michelin star food on a daily basis and getting noshed off by Cheryl Cole on request, or die at 99 with nothing to your name and living on the street your whole life? Same logic applies.

    That is bullshit. Or perhaps horse shit.

    Is the thinking that these animals are bread to be raced and death is an unfortunate side effect ?
    Yes it is.
    If it wasn't for racing they wouldn't exist. In fact, other than wild ponies, why would there be the need for any breeding of horses?
    My dog wouldn't be alive if the breeder hadn't thought she could sell it to me but I am not about to make her run down the road taking the risk of death.
    I'm sure that your dog would rather be running free than being kept indoors or held on a lead. So, is it okay that the dog, effectively a slave since you bought it, does only what you want it do? That's exploitation of an animal isn't it?
    You're right. I might put her in for a bit of dog fighting in the hope of making a few quid.
  • superclive98
    superclive98 Posts: 4,791
    PL54 said:

    superclive98 said:

    PL54 said:

    superclive98 said:

    PL54 said:

    CAFCsayer said:

    Would you rather die at 40, having lived in a mansion your whole life, eating Michelin star food on a daily basis and getting noshed off by Cheryl Cole on request, or die at 99 with nothing to your name and living on the street your whole life? Same logic applies.

    That is bullshit. Or perhaps horse shit.

    Is the thinking that these animals are bread to be raced and death is an unfortunate side effect ?
    Yes it is.
    If it wasn't for racing they wouldn't exist. In fact, other than wild ponies, why would there be the need for any breeding of horses?
    My dog wouldn't be alive if the breeder hadn't thought she could sell it to me but I am not about to make her run down the road taking the risk of death.
    I'm sure that your dog would rather be running free than being kept indoors or held on a lead. So, is it okay that the dog, effectively a slave since you bought it, does only what you want it do? That's exploitation of an animal isn't it?
    You're right. I might put her in for a bit of dog fighting in the hope of making a few quid.
    I believe that's against the law.
  • I_was_Floyd
    I_was_Floyd Posts: 468
    Footballers, if they break a leg or strain a muscle, should be destroyed on the pitch. Save a fortune in medical bills and wages.

    My dog btw, refuses to go out except for into the back garden. He generally prefers lying down and having his belly rubbed.

    Not sure how I feel about it really. I don't like animals suffering but I eat meat. I do feel too many horses are lost over the sticks though.

  • alan dugdale
    alan dugdale Posts: 3,079
    iainment said:

    killer kish said:

    Yes iainment wonderful world full of idiots nice of you to join them

    I assume you're either someone who enjoys seeing animals killed for no reason or you have a gambling problem.
    So everyone who has a bet has a gambling problem ? Everyone who has a bet is an idiot ?

    I guess everyone who has a drink is an alcoholic ?
    Everyone who goes to football is a hooligan ?
    Everyone who continued to watch football after Heysel is a murderer ?
  • alan dugdale
    alan dugdale Posts: 3,079
    Miserableoldgit said:

    Thanks @killerkish @smiffyboy @sam3110 @ValleyGary @CAFCsayer for proving that sometimes @PL54 isn't the only troll on here.
    I'm sure you've made him a happy chappie tonight.

    So everyone who likes horseracing on here is a troll ?
  • seth plum
    seth plum Posts: 53,448
    I wonder if we know that horses love the National Hunt racing. Horses in general are susceptible to being spooked. of for other reasons too they can rear, or buck, or kick, or roll or bolt.
    In order to minimise this kind of stuff horses are what they call 'broken'. This kind of thing does not convince me they love it. And there are whips and bits and stuff used to, how shall I put it, 'enforce' that love.
    Does not seem clear cut to me that they love it.
  • Dippenhall
    Dippenhall Posts: 3,921
    Anna_Kissed said:

    alan dugdale said:

    Is this a Deathwatch thread ?

    Good effort! I won't get drawn into slanging.
    This time last year, I posted the (factually correct) news about the deaths of horses at the Cheltenham Festival on the CL Cheltenham Festival thread. AFKA requested that I didn't continue to post on that thread - to which I readily agreed - and, instead, I started a new, separate, thread, bringing the sad side of horseracing to the attention of anyone who cared to read it.
    The mainstream media portrays horseracing as a jolly day out, fancy hats and 'having a flutter'. It might well be a good day out and, yes, some of the hats are colourful.
    The result is always the same - the injury and death of innocent animals.



    I agree only the guilty ones should die.

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  • superclive98
    superclive98 Posts: 4,791
    seth plum said:

    I wonder if we know that horses love the National Hunt racing. Horses in general are susceptible to being spooked. of for other reasons too they can rear, or buck, or kick, or roll or bolt.
    In order to minimise this kind of stuff horses are what they call 'broken'. This kind of thing does not convince me they love it. And there are whips and bits and stuff used to, how shall I put it, 'enforce' that love.
    Does not seem clear cut to me that they love it.

    Horses still do all of those things after they are 'broken'. That term merely relates to getting the horse to accept being ridden by a jockey, not the breaking of their will. An 8/9 stone jockey could not get a horse to do anything that it didn't want to do. That is why horses sometimes refuse to race or refuse to jump a fence.
    They are naturally herd animals and when they fall at a hurdle or fence they invariably get up and chase the others in the race and continue to jump - even the Grand National fences.
  • seth plum
    seth plum Posts: 53,448
    superclive98 said:

    seth plum said:

    I wonder if we know that horses love the National Hunt racing. Horses in general are susceptible to being spooked. of for other reasons too they can rear, or buck, or kick, or roll or bolt.
    In order to minimise this kind of stuff horses are what they call 'broken'. This kind of thing does not convince me they love it. And there are whips and bits and stuff used to, how shall I put it, 'enforce' that love.
    Does not seem clear cut to me that they love it.

    Horses still do all of those things after they are 'broken'. That term merely relates to getting the horse to accept being ridden by a jockey, not the breaking of their will. An 8/9 stone jockey could not get a horse to do anything that it didn't want to do. That is why horses sometimes refuse to race or refuse to jump a fence.
    They are naturally herd animals and when they fall at a hurdle or fence they invariably get up and chase the others in the race and continue to jump - even the Grand National fences.
    I agree that all you say is true. However if you say their herding instinct carries them on, is that the same as loving what they're doing?
    If they love it, why do they need time and work getting them to accept it whilst being broken. I agree that the term 'breaking of their will' is dramatic and inappropriate, but I also think that breaking a horse is a form of seduction.
    Unless you're a horse whisperer maybe.
    I am not at ease with what seems to be a rather romanticised idea that the horses love it.
  • CAFCsayer
    CAFCsayer Posts: 10,238
    seth plum said:

    And there are whips and bits and stuff used to, how shall I put it, 'enforce' that love. Does not seem clear cut to me that they love it.


    Not a fan of BDSM then I take it?
  • alan dugdale
    alan dugdale Posts: 3,079
    seth plum said:

    superclive98 said:

    seth plum said:

    I wonder if we know that horses love the National Hunt racing. Horses in general are susceptible to being spooked. of for other reasons too they can rear, or buck, or kick, or roll or bolt.
    In order to minimise this kind of stuff horses are what they call 'broken'. This kind of thing does not convince me they love it. And there are whips and bits and stuff used to, how shall I put it, 'enforce' that love.
    Does not seem clear cut to me that they love it.

    Horses still do all of those things after they are 'broken'. That term merely relates to getting the horse to accept being ridden by a jockey, not the breaking of their will. An 8/9 stone jockey could not get a horse to do anything that it didn't want to do. That is why horses sometimes refuse to race or refuse to jump a fence.
    They are naturally herd animals and when they fall at a hurdle or fence they invariably get up and chase the others in the race and continue to jump - even the Grand National fences.
    I agree that all you say is true. However if you say their herding instinct carries them on, is that the same as loving what they're doing?
    If they love it, why do they need time and work getting them to accept it whilst being broken. I agree that the term 'breaking of their will' is dramatic and inappropriate, but I also think that breaking a horse is a form of seduction.
    Unless you're a horse whisperer maybe.
    I am not at ease with what seems to be a rather romanticised idea that the horses love it.
    So far, not one objector has answered my question. Where would today's 119 horses otherwise have been ?
  • EveshamAddick
    EveshamAddick Posts: 7,027
    Surely it is the destruction of an injured animal here that is inhumane (presumably because they are no longer worth anything to their owner). Just because you've broken your leg, why should you be put down?
  • superclive98
    superclive98 Posts: 4,791
    EveshamAddick said:

    Surely it is the destruction of an injured animal here that is inhumane (presumably because they are no longer worth anything to their owner). Just because you've broken your leg, why should you be put down?

    Horses do not make good patients. The only way to treat a broken leg is to completely immobilise them, which is more inhumane than putting them out of their misery. You have to remember that owners invest a lot of money in their horses and many don't insure them because of the excessive costs. They wouldn't choose to dispose of their investment if it could be avoided.
  • PL54
    PL54 Posts: 10,757
    superclive98 said:

    EveshamAddick said:

    Surely it is the destruction of an injured animal here that is inhumane (presumably because they are no longer worth anything to their owner). Just because you've broken your leg, why should you be put down?

    Horses do not make good patients. The only way to treat a broken leg is to completely immobilise them, which is more inhumane than putting them out of their misery. You have to remember that owners invest a lot of money in their horses and many don't insure them because of the excessive costs. They wouldn't choose to dispose of their investment if it could be avoided.
  • superclive98
    superclive98 Posts: 4,791
    PL54 said:

    superclive98 said:

    EveshamAddick said:

    Surely it is the destruction of an injured animal here that is inhumane (presumably because they are no longer worth anything to their owner). Just because you've broken your leg, why should you be put down?

    Horses do not make good patients. The only way to treat a broken leg is to completely immobilise them, which is more inhumane than putting them out of their misery. You have to remember that owners invest a lot of money in their horses and many don't insure them because of the excessive costs. They wouldn't choose to dispose of their investment if it could be avoided.
    In other words they are writing off their investment and taking the advice of a vet to take the action that is in the best interest of the horse.
  • alan dugdale
    alan dugdale Posts: 3,079
    EveshamAddick said:

    Surely it is the destruction of an injured animal here that is inhumane (presumably because they are no longer worth anything to their owner). Just because you've broken your leg, why should you be put down?

    Like many on here, you obviously haven't read my earlier post detailing the serious injury to a horse I part owned.
    It has nothing to do with the value to an owner. Do you think it's an owner's decision ? Do you not think a vet makes these decisions.
    Not one person on here in the objecting camp has a clue what they are talking about.
    Neither do they have the decency to respond when their questions are answered or to read earlier posts.
  • Gumbo
    Gumbo Posts: 957
    seth plum said:

    Gumbo said:

    Just a note on racing horses, Racing is all they know, as much as i hard for people to hear there aren't pets, They are purely bread to race (it's there job). They are treated better then most pets as they cost a lot to own/train etc

    Unfortunately these deaths happen, and if they are put down it's done for the animals best interest, they are all athletes and are amazing to watch/hear a horse is full gallop

    Is this absolutely true? If they cost a lot to own and train is it in the interests of cutting costs that they are put down? I wouldn't want the animals to suffer, but with all the money sloshing around horse racing does it mean that horse medicine is so poorly advanced that there is no way to help these animals to survive, even if their racing days are over?
    Does much funding go into researching this area?
    I mean not long ago a footballers ACL going, would mean the end, but there have been significant advances with that injury.

    A horse cannot lay down for 6-8weeks recovering, it's not that they don't do research but that horses have to stand to eat and drink, a horse is put down because it wouldn't have any quality of life short or long term. Ex race horse do get rehomed after they are raced but can be dangerous to ride to inexpericed owners

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