Checking ID at The Valley

LenGlover said:

Covered End said:

LenGlover said:

East_Stand_Loopy said:

LenGlover said:

DOUCHER said:

RD has made a right mess of running the club which will end up costing him a lot of money - what he can't be accused of however is ripping fans off by raising ticket prices. That will be the topic for a future owner and future protests I'm sure. Its all good at the moment - the football is very good, the atmosphere is very good, the season ticket prices are very good. If you are border line under 18 or 11 or over 65 and are getting your knickers in a twist about having to carry a form of ID, then you need to get some real problems to get angry about. Personally, i haven't cheated the system but i can see why people have and do accept that a lot of those wouldn't have done so in the past and it is about RD. However, its understandable them clamping down on it now.             

You maybe happy 'showing your papers' to self appointed authoritarians.

Members of my family fought (and died) in wars to save us from that kind of intrusion.

There is a principle of personal freedom here. We are too willing to follow corporate diktats regarding required papers, payment methods etc. It's about time we kicked back against unreasonable behaviour.

But people not paying the correct amount for their tickets are acting completely reasonably?

I have repeatedly said that if you catch fraudsters punish them but you do not do that by oppressing the law abiding majority in my opinion anyway.

Len, how do you catch them without checking ?

See above.

So an ID check is borderline totalitarian state but CCTV cameras checking ever seat is OK?

Also how would they know what the person in that seat should look like without some photo on record?

Or if the 17 year old they are filming who has just bought a ticket today and is sitting with their mates is 17 or the person who bought the ticket?

Just not practical at this level of football.

Covered End said:

LenGlover said:

suzisausage said:

LenGlover said:

East_Stand_Loopy said:

LenGlover said:

DOUCHER said:

RD has made a right mess of running the club which will end up costing him a lot of money - what he can't be accused of however is ripping fans off by raising ticket prices. That will be the topic for a future owner and future protests I'm sure. Its all good at the moment - the football is very good, the atmosphere is very good, the season ticket prices are very good. If you are border line under 18 or 11 or over 65 and are getting your knickers in a twist about having to carry a form of ID, then you need to get some real problems to get angry about. Personally, i haven't cheated the system but i can see why people have and do accept that a lot of those wouldn't have done so in the past and it is about RD. However, its understandable them clamping down on it now.             

You maybe happy 'showing your papers' to self appointed authoritarians.

Members of my family fought (and died) in wars to save us from that kind of intrusion.

There is a principle of personal freedom here. We are too willing to follow corporate diktats regarding required papers, payment methods etc. It's about time we kicked back against unreasonable behaviour.

But people not paying the correct amount for their tickets are acting completely reasonably?

I have repeatedly said that if you catch fraudsters punish them but you do not do that by oppressing the law abiding majority in my opinion anyway.

How do you propose they catch them? 

Every seat is supposedly under video surveillance as I understand it. The database of tickets can be compared with actual occupants during matches and significant variances investigated afterwards or alternatively stewards can be instructed to target the relevant seats. For example if an under 11seat has an adult in it you send a steward in to investigate.

Different parts of the ground can be targeted in this way depending on where their 'intelligence' suggests the fraud is being committed. 
 
That system should not impact on decent, law abiding fans at all. It really isn't rocket science. It just requires a little strategic thought.

Too easy though and they don't have the satisfaction of alienating decent law abiding people.

So you still tackle the suspected person, but instead of just inside/outside the turnstile, sort of in private, you do it in the middle of a game, blocking other fan's views and cause a big fight ?

I don't think you've thought this through.

I actually said ....'and significant variances investigated afterwards or alternatively stewards can be instructed to target the relevant seats.

Given that I thought of it and posted it only in response to a question of what I'd do different from  @suzisausage and yourself. My point is that there are feasible alternatives and with a bit of forethought the majority of law abiding fans do not need to be inconvenienced which would be a priority of mine if I was running the business.

Henry Irving said:

LenGlover said:

Covered End said:

LenGlover said:

East_Stand_Loopy said:

LenGlover said:

DOUCHER said:

RD has made a right mess of running the club which will end up costing him a lot of money - what he can't be accused of however is ripping fans off by raising ticket prices. That will be the topic for a future owner and future protests I'm sure. Its all good at the moment - the football is very good, the atmosphere is very good, the season ticket prices are very good. If you are border line under 18 or 11 or over 65 and are getting your knickers in a twist about having to carry a form of ID, then you need to get some real problems to get angry about. Personally, i haven't cheated the system but i can see why people have and do accept that a lot of those wouldn't have done so in the past and it is about RD. However, its understandable them clamping down on it now.             

You maybe happy 'showing your papers' to self appointed authoritarians.

Members of my family fought (and died) in wars to save us from that kind of intrusion.

There is a principle of personal freedom here. We are too willing to follow corporate diktats regarding required papers, payment methods etc. It's about time we kicked back against unreasonable behaviour.

But people not paying the correct amount for their tickets are acting completely reasonably?

I have repeatedly said that if you catch fraudsters punish them but you do not do that by oppressing the law abiding majority in my opinion anyway.

Len, how do you catch them without checking ?

See above.

So an ID check is borderline totalitarian state but CCTV cameras checking ever seat is OK?

Also how would they know what the person in that seat should look like without some photo on record?

Or if the 17 year old they are filming who has just bought a ticket today and is sitting with their mates is 17 or the person who bought the ticket?

Just not practical at this level of football.

Where did I say that CCTV checking every seat is OK? I am against a surveillance society in principle.

However, given that seats are filmed anyway, to the best of my knowledge, then the pragmatic approach is to use the technology to minimise disruption to fans. 

Does it matter what the person looks like providing the ticket has been paid for at the correct tariff which the database should confirm?

Can't we have special 'pay what you can afford' matches? Get the crowd up, restore some good will. Everyone happier.

Covered End said:

Nug said:

Checking if grown men are getting in on £5 tickets is one thing and should be stopped, challenging a 17 year old about whether he has ID to prove his age seems OTT in my opinion.

The dilemma of course is that some teenagers look like adults.
I've definitely seen "girls" and "boys" that you would be confident are say early 20's and it turns out they're 14.
(That's my story and I'm sticking to it).

Doubt there are many that fall into that category and I guess I have less issues with an 18 year old getting in on an U18 ticket than a 45 year old getting in on an U10, but I take the point. Not much common sense in the world these days. Easier to challenge a teenager than a middle aged man.

suzisausage said:

Even those who paid the right money may not sit in the right seat.

I wouldn’t fancy stewards coming into the stand mid match to check tickets of people around me as they chose to move back when the rain starts in the west stand or for whatever reason. Getting in the way of those ‘law abiding fans’ watching the match? That also wouldn’t be ok. And the club would again get pelters.

It is poor planning to issue this late on a Friday granted. But as Airman mentioned, with very few staff, and very little budget it’s not surprising it’s not been thought about in detail. Tomorrow should be an ‘intro’ and a reminder to attendees that in future they should bring ID but no one should have a ticket confiscated until comms have been properly communicated over a couple of home games.

The informing the club of someone else using an ST is going to be a right disaster. Assume you can email them to let them know?  

The main problem is that the people In charge are out of their depth. But confiscating tickets of people in the correct pricing category is unenforceable nonsense and I have every confidence in the safety officer ignoring it if they tried.

Airman Brown said:

suzisausage said:

Even those who paid the right money may not sit in the right seat.

I wouldn’t fancy stewards coming into the stand mid match to check tickets of people around me as they chose to move back when the rain starts in the west stand or for whatever reason. Getting in the way of those ‘law abiding fans’ watching the match? That also wouldn’t be ok. And the club would again get pelters.

It is poor planning to issue this late on a Friday granted. But as Airman mentioned, with very few staff, and very little budget it’s not surprising it’s not been thought about in detail. Tomorrow should be an ‘intro’ and a reminder to attendees that in future they should bring ID but no one should have a ticket confiscated until comms have been properly communicated over a couple of home games.

The informing the club of someone else using an ST is going to be a right disaster. Assume you can email them to let them know?  

The main problem is that the people In charge are out of their depth. But confiscating tickets of people in the correct pricing category is unenforceable nonsense and I have every confidence in the safety officer ignoring it if they tried.

Your brother Mick's a good lad if you ask me 😉

Rob7Lee said:

https://www.cafc.co.uk/news/view/5d60091519eda/advice-for-fans-purchasing-concession-tickets-to-games-at-the-valley?utm_campaign=349788_Copy of Pre-Match Brentford v2 23.08.2019 17:03:01&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Charlton Athletic Football Club Ltd&dm_i=4W9V,7HWC,1C9RZ3,RNF5,1

Supporters purchasing concession tickets should be aware that ID checks will be in place for those who may appear close to, or outside, the relevant age groups. 

Appropriate identification includes a driving license, passport or any other photographic ID that shows date of birth. The club will also accept a copy/photograph of these documents provided the date of birth is clearly legible.

At Wednesday’s game, against Nottingham Forest, the club carried out checks in the Covered End and had to confiscate 37 concession tickets, a large proportion of which were adults who had purchased U11 tickets.

The club will continue to take steps to make fans aware of the heightened concession controls that they will face upon entering the stadium. These include adding a note on all confirmation emails, updating the ticketing terms and conditions, making it clear on all physical tickets and in articles on the club website. 

Season ticket holders are also reminded to bring along appropriate identification alongside their season ticket if challenged. Any fan found to be using another individuals season ticket without informing the ticket office prior to any game will also have their ticket confiscated from them. If any season ticket holder wishes to assign their ticket to another individual, they will need to contact our ticket office with the name and age of the individual the wish to transfer the ticket to.

If you have any questions about the controls or wish to know what qualifies as ID, please contact our ticket office by emailing tickets@cafc.co.uk or calling on 03330 14 44 44.

I think the club will find that you cannot change the terms and conditions of a sale unilaterally after a sale has taken place, I.e. season tickets have been sold on the existing Ts and Cs and inventing new ones now has no effect on those sold. Just a guess.

Airman Brown said:

Rob7Lee said:

https://www.cafc.co.uk/news/view/5d60091519eda/advice-for-fans-purchasing-concession-tickets-to-games-at-the-valley?utm_campaign=349788_Copy of Pre-Match Brentford v2 23.08.2019 17:03:01&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Charlton Athletic Football Club Ltd&dm_i=4W9V,7HWC,1C9RZ3,RNF5,1

Supporters purchasing concession tickets should be aware that ID checks will be in place for those who may appear close to, or outside, the relevant age groups. 

Appropriate identification includes a driving license, passport or any other photographic ID that shows date of birth. The club will also accept a copy/photograph of these documents provided the date of birth is clearly legible.

At Wednesday’s game, against Nottingham Forest, the club carried out checks in the Covered End and had to confiscate 37 concession tickets, a large proportion of which were adults who had purchased U11 tickets.

The club will continue to take steps to make fans aware of the heightened concession controls that they will face upon entering the stadium. These include adding a note on all confirmation emails, updating the ticketing terms and conditions, making it clear on all physical tickets and in articles on the club website. 

Season ticket holders are also reminded to bring along appropriate identification alongside their season ticket if challenged. Any fan found to be using another individuals season ticket without informing the ticket office prior to any game will also have their ticket confiscated from them. If any season ticket holder wishes to assign their ticket to another individual, they will need to contact our ticket office with the name and age of the individual the wish to transfer the ticket to.

If you have any questions about the controls or wish to know what qualifies as ID, please contact our ticket office by emailing tickets@cafc.co.uk or calling on 03330 14 44 44.

I think the club will find that you cannot change the terms and conditions of a sale unilaterally after a sale has taken place, I.e. season tickets have been sold on the existing Ts and Cs and inventing new ones now has no effect on those sold. Just a guess.

I'm hardly a club apologist, but if you buy a concession ticket anywhere - whether football, theatre, cinema, etc. - that you're not entitled to, it's your risk if you find the ticket worthless when you try to get in.

Proof of age requirement for season tickets was in the Ts & Cs when I was a holder, and I've not bought one for at least 3 years. Let's be real, the only point at which the club can enforce proof of age is at the point of use - a 40 year old can happily buy a drink in a pub, but risks the drink being taken away if he then gives it to his 15 year old. 

Let's put it this way - do we honestly think a court would decide that the club was in breach of its agreed conditions of sale for checking that the grey haired, pot-bellied, balding gentlemen really was under 11? 

Bottom line, people do it because they've been able to get away with it - enforcing it has always and always will be at the club's discretion.  Pick your battles, this one doesn't have legs.