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Why are so many people not wearing face masks?
Comments
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I do not disagree with anything you say BUT there is no risk/free scenario moving forward.ME14addick said:
It wasn't overwhelmed because of the 'lockdown', however there were many reports of NHS staff being very stretched and we saw pictures on tv of the struggles that staff had. We even had people clapping every Thursday to thank those overworked staff for the work they were doing.stonemuse said:
But the NHS was not overwhelmed ... and when the second wave occurs, we are far more prepared ... plus, at this stage, the signs are that deaths and hospitalisations are likely to be far less.ME14addick said:
We cannot allow the virus to spread unchecked, that would overwhelm the NHS and people suffering from other illnesses would be even less likely to get the treatment they need. More people were starting to get their treatment when the virus was under control.stonemuse said:
Absolutely right ... too many people are ignoring the new real issues.killer kish said:To me it’s a mixture of health and economy and it all contradicts each other.How can you not wear a mask in pub/restaurant but have to in a shop plus the staff don’t have to wear masks in the shop and are there most of the day but customers have too.If it was all about health and nothing else staff should be wearing masks at all times and pubs/restaurants should still be closed.The ones on here saying if you can’t wear a mask stay at home clearly don’t understand mental health issues and disabilities.My Daughter has special needs,
learning difficulties,autism plus many other issues to list so am I meant to keep her locked away because she can’t wear a mask?! I’ve gone to the shops with my Daughter just to get essential shopping only since Covid started and the big change I’ve seen since masks were made mandatory is that social distancing has gone out the window for most.Because of my Daughters issues I have to go and shop with her as I’m on my own with her and have no help or other options.Plus I can’t get shopping delivered because if the front door is opened my Daughter believes we are either going out or someone is visiting and when neither happens she has a complete meltdown.So it really isn’t as easy as some of you make it out to be............Walk A Mile In My Shoes!
We cannot carry on like this ... deaths from non-Covid ailments will go through the roof over the next 12 months ...far more than the Covid deaths we have experienced thus far.
And this is not my evaluation ... it has been stated by many senior cancer and heart practitioners for quite a while now.
Obviously we need to be able to look after everyone who becomes ill, but our NHS hasn't got that ability and it needs a lot more resources to be able to do that.
Covid has displaced everything else. Waiting lists are at an all time high, many people are too scared to get treatments, we are sitting on a health timebomb that will be massively worse then Covid.
We either continue going all-out Covid or face the fact that many thousands are facing massive health problems and death from non-Covid issues if we do not change the approach.
Many are going to die whichever approach is taken, but at some stage an evaluation and subsequent action needs to be taken as to which approach benefits the most people.
As you you pointed out earlier, the NHS cannot handle both ... no country can. It’s a horrible choice but by the end of the year, it requires resolution.
No one can see the future ... however from the reading I have done, it would appear that most - not all - expect a second wave to be less dangerous. That does not mean that people will not die. But it could mean that less people will die than from other sources and ailments.
I have severe concerns that it is not Covid that will overwhelm the NHS, but every other heart, cancer, etc problem that has been unattended over the last few months.3 -
Despite my bluster, I can see that there is a genuine need to be able to make exceptions and from what you say I have absolutely no doubts that your daughter's situation should fall into that. My concern though is that allowing exception without proof of need is the thin end of the wedge whereby any number of people can falsely claim exemption from mask wearing just because they don't fancy it. With most issues I would say that it's probably more important to err on the side of personal freedoms over conformity because that's what makes the biggest difference to the people that genuinely need it. Covid is different though; the UK death rate is in the tens of thousands and if we aren't careful will get much higher. In this case the biggest risk is that more people will needlessly die. I can see that my 'no exceptions' argument is too strong, but I'm struggling to see that a requirement to prove exceptions (e.g. doctors note) is unreasonable.killer kish said:To me it’s a mixture of health and economy and it all contradicts each other.How can you not wear a mask in pub/restaurant but have to in a shop plus the staff don’t have to wear masks in the shop and are there most of the day but customers have too.If it was all about health and nothing else staff should be wearing masks at all times and pubs/restaurants should still be closed.The ones on here saying if you can’t wear a mask stay at home clearly don’t understand mental health issues and disabilities.My Daughter has special needs,
learning difficulties,autism plus many other issues to list so am I meant to keep her locked away because she can’t wear a mask?! I’ve gone to the shops with my Daughter just to get essential shopping only since Covid started and the big change I’ve seen since masks were made mandatory is that social distancing has gone out the window for most.Because of my Daughters issues I have to go and shop with her as I’m on my own with her and have no help or other options.Plus I can’t get shopping delivered because if the front door is opened my Daughter believes we are either going out or someone is visiting and when neither happens she has a complete meltdown.So it really isn’t as easy as some of you make it out to be............Walk A Mile In My Shoes!5 -
killerandflash said:
That would make sense in pubs/restaurants as wellMuttleyCAFC said:My Italian cousin thinks a big reason Italy are doing so well is the 100% acceptance of mask wearing. Schoolkids have to wear a mask and can only take them off at their desks, if you are eating or drinking you take them off at your table. The rest of the time, you have to have your mask on and people are complying. Apart from the wearing of the masks everything has reached a normality there far beyond what we and other countries are experiencing.
So for example if you go to a big pub like a Wetherspoon you wear your mask while walking to your table, to the bar or toilets, but not at your table
Yes, that was said a few days ago, about wearing a mask when 'moving about'0 -
That's the thing that really pisses me off about the arseholes going on about "muzzles" etc, that they're making life difficult for the very small number of people who have a genuine need not to wear a mask, in the same way that anti-vaxxers make life difficult for the people who are genuinely unable to get vaccinated. As a member of society your rights as an individual go hand in hand with your responsibility to other members of that society, but too many people are so focused on the former that they forget about the latter. It's also daft to rebel against minor inconvenience measures like that, when they could be making the difference in infection rates between being able to carry on with a more open society or having to tighten controls again for longer.(I'll save the rant about the NHS "not being overwhelmed" for another day)14
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We were hit equally as hard!Dazzler21 said:
I assume with how badly they were hit, it helped to sway the people to listen and follow instructions.MuttleyCAFC said:My Italian cousin thinks a big reason Italy are doing so well is the 100% acceptance of mask wearing. Schoolkids have to wear a mask and can only take them off at their desks, if you are eating or drinking you take them off at your table. The rest of the time, you have to have your mask on and people are complying. Apart from the wearing of the masks everything has reached a normality there far beyond what we and other countries are experiencing.0 -
As I mentioned the NHS not being overwhelmed, I will clarify that my point is that it was not overwhelmed by Covid as had been the fear.aliwibble said:That's the thing that really pisses me off about the arseholes going on about "muzzles" etc, that they're making life difficult for the very small number of people who have a genuine need not to wear a mask, in the same way that anti-vaxxers make life difficult for the people who are genuinely unable to get vaccinated. As a member of society your rights as an individual go hand in hand with your responsibility to other members of that society, but too many people are so focused on the former that they forget about the latter. It's also daft to rebel against minor inconvenience measures like that, when they could be making the difference in infection rates between being able to carry on with a more open society or having to tighten controls again for longer.(I'll save the rant about the NHS "not being overwhelmed" for another day)
My post is about how everything else is building up and will overwhelm us if we concentrate again primarily on Covid.
Do not know latest figures and they will be much higher, but back in June the British Heart Foundation estimated that there were at least 28,000 delayed inpatient heart procedures in England since lockdown began. At the same time, analysis published by Cancer Research UK outlined as many as 2.4 million people in the UK had been affected by a backlog in cancer screening, further tests or treatment. In addition, there were very long waiting lists for elective surgery procedures, such as hip replacements and cataract extractions.
This is where we will be overwhelmed. In fact, we already are.
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It isn't overwhelmed at the moment because there are measures in place to stop the spread of Covid. Other treatments for other ailments are taking place, albeit on a smaller scale than we would all like, but they might have to stop if Covid gets out of hand again.stonemuse said:
As I mentioned the NHS not being overwhelmed, I will clarify that my point is that it was not overwhelmed by Covid as had been the fear.aliwibble said:That's the thing that really pisses me off about the arseholes going on about "muzzles" etc, that they're making life difficult for the very small number of people who have a genuine need not to wear a mask, in the same way that anti-vaxxers make life difficult for the people who are genuinely unable to get vaccinated. As a member of society your rights as an individual go hand in hand with your responsibility to other members of that society, but too many people are so focused on the former that they forget about the latter. It's also daft to rebel against minor inconvenience measures like that, when they could be making the difference in infection rates between being able to carry on with a more open society or having to tighten controls again for longer.(I'll save the rant about the NHS "not being overwhelmed" for another day)
My post is about how everything else is building up and will overwhelm us if we concentrate again primarily on Covid.
Do not know latest figures and they will be much higher, but back in June the British Heart Foundation estimated that there were at least 28,000 delayed inpatient heart procedures in England since lockdown began. At the same time, analysis published by Cancer Research UK outlined as many as 2.4 million people in the UK had been affected by a backlog in cancer screening, further tests or treatment. In addition, there were very long waiting lists for elective surgery procedures, such as hip replacements and cataract extractions.
This is where we will be overwhelmed. In fact, we already are.
We need a balance and to achieve that, we all need to take every precaution we can to stop the spread of the virus, so that life can continue as near to normal as possible. That means having to do, or not do, as the case may be, things that we don't like, but are for the greater good of everyone.2 -
This from Dr John Lee, a former Professor of Pathology, on the 23.8.2020ME14addick said:
It isn't overwhelmed at the moment because there are measures in place to stop the spread of Covid. Other treatments for other ailments are taking place, albeit on a smaller scale than we would all like, but they might have to stop if Covid gets out of hand again.stonemuse said:
As I mentioned the NHS not being overwhelmed, I will clarify that my point is that it was not overwhelmed by Covid as had been the fear.aliwibble said:That's the thing that really pisses me off about the arseholes going on about "muzzles" etc, that they're making life difficult for the very small number of people who have a genuine need not to wear a mask, in the same way that anti-vaxxers make life difficult for the people who are genuinely unable to get vaccinated. As a member of society your rights as an individual go hand in hand with your responsibility to other members of that society, but too many people are so focused on the former that they forget about the latter. It's also daft to rebel against minor inconvenience measures like that, when they could be making the difference in infection rates between being able to carry on with a more open society or having to tighten controls again for longer.(I'll save the rant about the NHS "not being overwhelmed" for another day)
My post is about how everything else is building up and will overwhelm us if we concentrate again primarily on Covid.
Do not know latest figures and they will be much higher, but back in June the British Heart Foundation estimated that there were at least 28,000 delayed inpatient heart procedures in England since lockdown began. At the same time, analysis published by Cancer Research UK outlined as many as 2.4 million people in the UK had been affected by a backlog in cancer screening, further tests or treatment. In addition, there were very long waiting lists for elective surgery procedures, such as hip replacements and cataract extractions.
This is where we will be overwhelmed. In fact, we already are.
Typically some 30,000 cases of cancer are diagnosed every month; since lockdown it has been roughly half that. And the latest figures from the Office of National Statistics reveal cancer deaths are almost four times higher than they should have been in June.
In London alone, those waiting for procedures for over a year have shot up to almost 20,000 from just 1,154 across England 18 months ago.
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What do you think we should or should not be doing to allow cancer patients to get the treatment they need?Redskin said:
This from Dr John Lee, a former Professor of Pathology, on the 23.8.2020ME14addick said:
It isn't overwhelmed at the moment because there are measures in place to stop the spread of Covid. Other treatments for other ailments are taking place, albeit on a smaller scale than we would all like, but they might have to stop if Covid gets out of hand again.stonemuse said:
As I mentioned the NHS not being overwhelmed, I will clarify that my point is that it was not overwhelmed by Covid as had been the fear.aliwibble said:That's the thing that really pisses me off about the arseholes going on about "muzzles" etc, that they're making life difficult for the very small number of people who have a genuine need not to wear a mask, in the same way that anti-vaxxers make life difficult for the people who are genuinely unable to get vaccinated. As a member of society your rights as an individual go hand in hand with your responsibility to other members of that society, but too many people are so focused on the former that they forget about the latter. It's also daft to rebel against minor inconvenience measures like that, when they could be making the difference in infection rates between being able to carry on with a more open society or having to tighten controls again for longer.(I'll save the rant about the NHS "not being overwhelmed" for another day)
My post is about how everything else is building up and will overwhelm us if we concentrate again primarily on Covid.
Do not know latest figures and they will be much higher, but back in June the British Heart Foundation estimated that there were at least 28,000 delayed inpatient heart procedures in England since lockdown began. At the same time, analysis published by Cancer Research UK outlined as many as 2.4 million people in the UK had been affected by a backlog in cancer screening, further tests or treatment. In addition, there were very long waiting lists for elective surgery procedures, such as hip replacements and cataract extractions.
This is where we will be overwhelmed. In fact, we already are.
Typically some 30,000 cases of cancer are diagnosed every month; since lockdown it has been roughly half that. And the latest figures from the Office of National Statistics reveal cancer deaths are almost four times higher than they should have been in June.
In London alone, those waiting for procedures for over a year have shot up to almost 20,000 from just 1,154 across England 18 months ago.0 -
Give them the treatment. If they are concerned about contracting the virus, they can postpone treatment until such time they feel comfortable receiving it.ME14addick said:
What do you think we should or should not be doing to allow cancer patients to get the treatment they need?Redskin said:
This from Dr John Lee, a former Professor of Pathology, on the 23.8.2020ME14addick said:
It isn't overwhelmed at the moment because there are measures in place to stop the spread of Covid. Other treatments for other ailments are taking place, albeit on a smaller scale than we would all like, but they might have to stop if Covid gets out of hand again.stonemuse said:
As I mentioned the NHS not being overwhelmed, I will clarify that my point is that it was not overwhelmed by Covid as had been the fear.aliwibble said:That's the thing that really pisses me off about the arseholes going on about "muzzles" etc, that they're making life difficult for the very small number of people who have a genuine need not to wear a mask, in the same way that anti-vaxxers make life difficult for the people who are genuinely unable to get vaccinated. As a member of society your rights as an individual go hand in hand with your responsibility to other members of that society, but too many people are so focused on the former that they forget about the latter. It's also daft to rebel against minor inconvenience measures like that, when they could be making the difference in infection rates between being able to carry on with a more open society or having to tighten controls again for longer.(I'll save the rant about the NHS "not being overwhelmed" for another day)
My post is about how everything else is building up and will overwhelm us if we concentrate again primarily on Covid.
Do not know latest figures and they will be much higher, but back in June the British Heart Foundation estimated that there were at least 28,000 delayed inpatient heart procedures in England since lockdown began. At the same time, analysis published by Cancer Research UK outlined as many as 2.4 million people in the UK had been affected by a backlog in cancer screening, further tests or treatment. In addition, there were very long waiting lists for elective surgery procedures, such as hip replacements and cataract extractions.
This is where we will be overwhelmed. In fact, we already are.
Typically some 30,000 cases of cancer are diagnosed every month; since lockdown it has been roughly half that. And the latest figures from the Office of National Statistics reveal cancer deaths are almost four times higher than they should have been in June.
In London alone, those waiting for procedures for over a year have shot up to almost 20,000 from just 1,154 across England 18 months ago.2 - Sponsored links:
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Over 40k Covid-related deaths in the UK is horrific.But as a result of a focussed Covid approach which has left many treatments in abeyance, or means people are scared to get treatment, non-Covid deaths are likely to be exponentially higher. And if Covid receives primary support again in the Winter, it will be far worse.This is not me saying this ... read senior consultants and surgeons all over the internet, NHS and private ... they are very worried.As I said, it’s a horrible choice, but there will need to be a choice as to where the NHS concentrates its focus ... it cannot do both.A few years ago I had bowel cancer and went through many months of treatment including radiotherapy for a number of weeks. I only recently had the full all-clear which is wonderful. However, if my problem had been this year, there is a distinct possibility I would not have been so lucky ... and many people are going through this now.My wife’s mammogram was delayed by six months ... she finally had it done a couple of weeks and is all clear ... but the six month delay could have caused problems and will no doubt do so for some. My sister-in-law has metastatic breast cancer. Her treatment has fortunately only been minimally impacted, but she knows of quite a number of others whose treatment has been severely impacted which will result in an earlier death.There are hundreds of thousands of such stories around. Covid cannot be our prime focus over the coming months as it was earlier in the year.The awful fact is that we face a decision on how many people will die ... my belief is that non-Covid issues must now take priority.I understand why others may think differently, but as I said before, this is not a zero risk scenario.8
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I think this raises a question about hospital design. For years the 'bigger is better/economies of scale model' has prevailed. It certainly has some benefits as all services are under one roof and presumably things like recruitment are made easier. Perhaps there's a case for splitting up hospitals though, so that hospitals for infectious diseases are kept separate from hospitals for surgical procedures. That way, there's a better chance of ongoing healthcare being kept open despite otherwise locking-down. Of course the real fly in the ointment would be securing the funding for such a move. But surely it's better to make that investment in healthcare rather than exacerbating any future crises.stonemuse said:
As I mentioned the NHS not being overwhelmed, I will clarify that my point is that it was not overwhelmed by Covid as had been the fear.aliwibble said:That's the thing that really pisses me off about the arseholes going on about "muzzles" etc, that they're making life difficult for the very small number of people who have a genuine need not to wear a mask, in the same way that anti-vaxxers make life difficult for the people who are genuinely unable to get vaccinated. As a member of society your rights as an individual go hand in hand with your responsibility to other members of that society, but too many people are so focused on the former that they forget about the latter. It's also daft to rebel against minor inconvenience measures like that, when they could be making the difference in infection rates between being able to carry on with a more open society or having to tighten controls again for longer.(I'll save the rant about the NHS "not being overwhelmed" for another day)
My post is about how everything else is building up and will overwhelm us if we concentrate again primarily on Covid.
Do not know latest figures and they will be much higher, but back in June the British Heart Foundation estimated that there were at least 28,000 delayed inpatient heart procedures in England since lockdown began. At the same time, analysis published by Cancer Research UK outlined as many as 2.4 million people in the UK had been affected by a backlog in cancer screening, further tests or treatment. In addition, there were very long waiting lists for elective surgery procedures, such as hip replacements and cataract extractions.
This is where we will be overwhelmed. In fact, we already are.3 -
Are you suggesting that Covid patients should just be allowed to die?stonemuse said:Over 40k Covid-related deaths in the UK is horrific.But as a result of a focussed Covid approach which has left many treatments in abeyance, or means people are scared to get treatment, non-Covid deaths are likely to be exponentially higher. And if Covid receives primary support again in the Winter, it will be far worse.This is not me saying this ... read senior consultants and surgeons all over the internet, NHS and private ... they are very worried.As I said, it’s a horrible choice, but there will need to be a choice as to where the NHS concentrates its focus ... it cannot do both.A few years ago I had bowel cancer and went through many months of treatment including radiotherapy for a number of weeks. I only recently had the full all-clear which is wonderful. However, if my problem had been this year, there is a distinct possibility I would not have been so lucky ... and many people are going through this now.My wife’s mammogram was delayed by six months ... she finally had it done a couple of weeks and is all clear ... but the six month delay could have caused problems and will no doubt do so for some. My sister-in-law has metastatic breast cancer. Her treatment has fortunately only been minimally impacted, but she knows of quite a number of others whose treatment has been severely impacted which will result in an earlier death.There are hundreds of thousands of such stories around. Covid cannot be our prime focus over the coming months as it was earlier in the year.The awful fact is that we face a decision on how many people will die ... my belief is that non-Covid issues must now take priority.I understand why others may think differently, but as I said before, this is not a zero risk scenario.
By taking measures to stop the further spread of Covid, we will have a better chance of treating both Covid and non Covid patients.0 -
I agree that we should be mindful of the effect it has on other illnesses but I am worried about the agenda behind some of it. Covid has to be taken seriously and that is that.1
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Can’t argue with that but funding must be focussed on where it is needed. Way too much money has been wasted in the NHS over the decades, especially on IT projects and procurement. Also, a few years ago, the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges looked at the issue of ‘over-treatment‘ and estimated £2bn a year was being wasted by giving patients unnecessary X-rays, drugs and treatments.Stig said:
I think this raises a question about hospital design. For years the 'bigger is better/economies of scale model' has prevailed. It certainly has some benefits as all services are under one roof and presumably things like recruitment are made easier. Perhaps there's a case for splitting up hospitals though, so that hospitals for infectious diseases are kept separate from hospitals for surgical procedures. That way, there's a better chance of ongoing healthcare being kept open despite otherwise locking-down. Of course the real fly in the ointment would be securing the funding for such a move. But surely it's better to make that investment in healthcare rather than exacerbating any future crises.stonemuse said:
As I mentioned the NHS not being overwhelmed, I will clarify that my point is that it was not overwhelmed by Covid as had been the fear.aliwibble said:That's the thing that really pisses me off about the arseholes going on about "muzzles" etc, that they're making life difficult for the very small number of people who have a genuine need not to wear a mask, in the same way that anti-vaxxers make life difficult for the people who are genuinely unable to get vaccinated. As a member of society your rights as an individual go hand in hand with your responsibility to other members of that society, but too many people are so focused on the former that they forget about the latter. It's also daft to rebel against minor inconvenience measures like that, when they could be making the difference in infection rates between being able to carry on with a more open society or having to tighten controls again for longer.(I'll save the rant about the NHS "not being overwhelmed" for another day)
My post is about how everything else is building up and will overwhelm us if we concentrate again primarily on Covid.
Do not know latest figures and they will be much higher, but back in June the British Heart Foundation estimated that there were at least 28,000 delayed inpatient heart procedures in England since lockdown began. At the same time, analysis published by Cancer Research UK outlined as many as 2.4 million people in the UK had been affected by a backlog in cancer screening, further tests or treatment. In addition, there were very long waiting lists for elective surgery procedures, such as hip replacements and cataract extractions.
This is where we will be overwhelmed. In fact, we already are.Nuffield Trust think tank believe that by spending more, we would have better buildings and quicker access to technology and treatments, which would improve care and make it more efficient. I fully agree0 -
I am sure most people will agree with this, but this thread is about wearing face masks and there are people who suggest that we should not be compelled to wear them if we have no medical exemption.Redskin said:
Give them the treatment. If they are concerned about contracting the virus, they can postpone treatment until such time they feel comfortable receiving it.ME14addick said:
What do you think we should or should not be doing to allow cancer patients to get the treatment they need?Redskin said:
This from Dr John Lee, a former Professor of Pathology, on the 23.8.2020ME14addick said:
It isn't overwhelmed at the moment because there are measures in place to stop the spread of Covid. Other treatments for other ailments are taking place, albeit on a smaller scale than we would all like, but they might have to stop if Covid gets out of hand again.stonemuse said:
As I mentioned the NHS not being overwhelmed, I will clarify that my point is that it was not overwhelmed by Covid as had been the fear.aliwibble said:That's the thing that really pisses me off about the arseholes going on about "muzzles" etc, that they're making life difficult for the very small number of people who have a genuine need not to wear a mask, in the same way that anti-vaxxers make life difficult for the people who are genuinely unable to get vaccinated. As a member of society your rights as an individual go hand in hand with your responsibility to other members of that society, but too many people are so focused on the former that they forget about the latter. It's also daft to rebel against minor inconvenience measures like that, when they could be making the difference in infection rates between being able to carry on with a more open society or having to tighten controls again for longer.(I'll save the rant about the NHS "not being overwhelmed" for another day)
My post is about how everything else is building up and will overwhelm us if we concentrate again primarily on Covid.
Do not know latest figures and they will be much higher, but back in June the British Heart Foundation estimated that there were at least 28,000 delayed inpatient heart procedures in England since lockdown began. At the same time, analysis published by Cancer Research UK outlined as many as 2.4 million people in the UK had been affected by a backlog in cancer screening, further tests or treatment. In addition, there were very long waiting lists for elective surgery procedures, such as hip replacements and cataract extractions.
This is where we will be overwhelmed. In fact, we already are.
Typically some 30,000 cases of cancer are diagnosed every month; since lockdown it has been roughly half that. And the latest figures from the Office of National Statistics reveal cancer deaths are almost four times higher than they should have been in June.
In London alone, those waiting for procedures for over a year have shot up to almost 20,000 from just 1,154 across England 18 months ago.
The point I am trying to make is that the best chance that people have of getting the treatment they need, is to keep infection rates as low as possible. This means that we should all wear face masks and observe all the social distancing rules. Those that cannot wear a mask for medical reasons could be issued with a lanyard to show that they are exempt.4 -
Ridiculous comment. Of course he isn't.ME14addick said:Are you suggesting that Covid patients should just be allowed to die?2 -
Please don’t put words in my mouth ... that’s a deplorable thing to do. Not going to bother discussing with you if that’s how you want to behave.ME14addick said:
Are you suggesting that Covid patients should just be allowed to die?stonemuse said:Over 40k Covid-related deaths in the UK is horrific.But as a result of a focussed Covid approach which has left many treatments in abeyance, or means people are scared to get treatment, non-Covid deaths are likely to be exponentially higher. And if Covid receives primary support again in the Winter, it will be far worse.This is not me saying this ... read senior consultants and surgeons all over the internet, NHS and private ... they are very worried.As I said, it’s a horrible choice, but there will need to be a choice as to where the NHS concentrates its focus ... it cannot do both.A few years ago I had bowel cancer and went through many months of treatment including radiotherapy for a number of weeks. I only recently had the full all-clear which is wonderful. However, if my problem had been this year, there is a distinct possibility I would not have been so lucky ... and many people are going through this now.My wife’s mammogram was delayed by six months ... she finally had it done a couple of weeks and is all clear ... but the six month delay could have caused problems and will no doubt do so for some. My sister-in-law has metastatic breast cancer. Her treatment has fortunately only been minimally impacted, but she knows of quite a number of others whose treatment has been severely impacted which will result in an earlier death.There are hundreds of thousands of such stories around. Covid cannot be our prime focus over the coming months as it was earlier in the year.The awful fact is that we face a decision on how many people will die ... my belief is that non-Covid issues must now take priority.I understand why others may think differently, but as I said before, this is not a zero risk scenario.
By taking measures to stop the further spread of Covid, we will have a better chance of treating both Covid and non Covid patients.I said we have no choice but to find a balance. Whichever approach is taken will lead to many deaths, but we are not capable of covering everything, no country is. Decisions need to be made on how we can save the most lives.Stopping the further spread of Covid does little to help those I mentioned in my previous posts ... and these now far outnumber those at risk of being hospitalised by Covid.You have really pissed me off with your insinuation I want to leave people to die. My son was seriously ill with Covid in March ... so you are on my ‘ignore’ mode from now on.3 -
What agenda?MuttleyCAFC said:I agree that we should be mindful of the effect it has on other illnesses but I am worried about the agenda behind some of it. Covid has to be taken seriously and that is that.0 -
Thank you.Redskin said:
Ridiculous comment. Of course he isn't.ME14addick said:Are you suggesting that Covid patients should just be allowed to die?1 - Sponsored links:
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This is what you saidstonemuse said:
Please don’t put words in my mouth ... that’s a deplorable thing to do. Not going to bother discussing with you if that’s how you want to behave.ME14addick said:stonemuse said:Over 40k Covid-related deaths in the UK is horrific.But as a result of a focussed Covid approach which has left many treatments in abeyance, or means people are scared to get treatment, non-Covid deaths are likely to be exponentially higher. And if Covid receives primary support again in the Winter, it will be far worse.This is not me saying this ... read senior consultants and surgeons all over the internet, NHS and private ... they are very worried.As I said, it’s a horrible choice, but there will need to be a choice as to where the NHS concentrates its focus ... it cannot do both.A few years ago I had bowel cancer and went through many months of treatment including radiotherapy for a number of weeks. I only recently had the full all-clear which is wonderful. However, if my problem had been this year, there is a distinct possibility I would not have been so lucky ... and many people are going through this now.My wife’s mammogram was delayed by six months ... she finally had it done a couple of weeks and is all clear ... but the six month delay could have caused problems and will no doubt do so for some. My sister-in-law has metastatic breast cancer. Her treatment has fortunately only been minimally impacted, but she knows of quite a number of others whose treatment has been severely impacted which will result in an earlier death.There are hundreds of thousands of such stories around. Covid cannot be our prime focus over the coming months as it was earlier in the year.The awful fact is that we face a decision on how many people will die ... my belief is that non-Covid issues must now take priority.I understand why others may think differently, but as I said before, this is not a zero risk scenario.
Are you suggesting that Covid patients should just be allowed to die?
By taking measures to stop the further spread of Covid, we will have a better chance of treating both Covid and non Covid patients.I said we have no choice but to find a balance. Whichever approach is taken will lead to many deaths, but we are not capable of covering everything, no country is. Decisions need to be made on how we can save the most lives.Stopping the further spread of Covid does little to help those I mentioned in my previous posts ... and these now far outnumber those at risk of being hospitalised by Covid.You have really pissed me off with your insinuation I want to leave people to die. My son was seriously ill with Covid in March ... so you are on my ‘ignore’ mode from now on.
The awful fact is that we face a decision on how many people will die ... my belief is that non-Covid issues must now take priority.
I too believe we should find a balance and is what I have been saying all along.0 -
Mask Wearing.
As a non driver i spend a lot of time on buses visiting sites around Charlton, Greenwich and the up to Mottingham.
The vast majority of non compliance is by fit looking men between the ages of 14 to 35 and their attitude is they don't give a fuck.
I've seen one lady wearing a badge saying she was exempt.
Making the effort to get a badge and the driver refusing entry to those without one will possibly get the message across.3 -
And this is why it’s best not to challenge people
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I am in broad agreement with you.stonemuse said:
Please don’t put words in my mouth ... that’s a deplorable thing to do. Not going to bother discussing with you if that’s how you want to behave.ME14addick said:stonemuse said:Over 40k Covid-related deaths in the UK is horrific.But as a result of a focussed Covid approach which has left many treatments in abeyance, or means people are scared to get treatment, non-Covid deaths are likely to be exponentially higher. And if Covid receives primary support again in the Winter, it will be far worse.This is not me saying this ... read senior consultants and surgeons all over the internet, NHS and private ... they are very worried.As I said, it’s a horrible choice, but there will need to be a choice as to where the NHS concentrates its focus ... it cannot do both.A few years ago I had bowel cancer and went through many months of treatment including radiotherapy for a number of weeks. I only recently had the full all-clear which is wonderful. However, if my problem had been this year, there is a distinct possibility I would not have been so lucky ... and many people are going through this now.My wife’s mammogram was delayed by six months ... she finally had it done a couple of weeks and is all clear ... but the six month delay could have caused problems and will no doubt do so for some. My sister-in-law has metastatic breast cancer. Her treatment has fortunately only been minimally impacted, but she knows of quite a number of others whose treatment has been severely impacted which will result in an earlier death.There are hundreds of thousands of such stories around. Covid cannot be our prime focus over the coming months as it was earlier in the year.The awful fact is that we face a decision on how many people will die ... my belief is that non-Covid issues must now take priority.I understand why others may think differently, but as I said before, this is not a zero risk scenario.
Are you suggesting that Covid patients should just be allowed to die?
By taking measures to stop the further spread of Covid, we will have a better chance of treating both Covid and non Covid patients.I said we have no choice but to find a balance. Whichever approach is taken will lead to many deaths, but we are not capable of covering everything, no country is. Decisions need to be made on how we can save the most lives.Stopping the further spread of Covid does little to help those I mentioned in my previous posts ... and these now far outnumber those at risk of being hospitalised by Covid.You have really pissed me off with your insinuation I want to leave people to die. My son was seriously ill with Covid in March ... so you are on my ‘ignore’ mode from now on.
What confuses me is that there was much trumpeting of the 'Nightingale' hospitals which were built and supposed to deal with COVID-19 whilst the 'ordinary' NHS hospitals dealt with 'ordinary' demand.
Somehow, despite all the photo opportunities, that never quite happened as the Nightingale hospitals remained empty prior to being dismantled (how much money was wasted on that charade) and the National Health Service became the National COVID Service.
As I've said before this has become a Political Pandemic. There have been cock-ups on all sides and the ordinary punters are the ones that suffer. Rather like football fans suffering the punishment for the incompetence of the EFL in properly vetting owners as we know ourselves.
There is no longer, if there ever was, any public accountability from our political masters.2 -
@Stonemuse I apologise if my words have offended you, but I still don't see how not stopping the spread of Covid is going to help those mentioned in your previous posts.stonemuse said:
Please don’t put words in my mouth ... that’s a deplorable thing to do. Not going to bother discussing with you if that’s how you want to behave.ME14addick said:stonemuse said:Over 40k Covid-related deaths in the UK is horrific.But as a result of a focussed Covid approach which has left many treatments in abeyance, or means people are scared to get treatment, non-Covid deaths are likely to be exponentially higher. And if Covid receives primary support again in the Winter, it will be far worse.This is not me saying this ... read senior consultants and surgeons all over the internet, NHS and private ... they are very worried.As I said, it’s a horrible choice, but there will need to be a choice as to where the NHS concentrates its focus ... it cannot do both.A few years ago I had bowel cancer and went through many months of treatment including radiotherapy for a number of weeks. I only recently had the full all-clear which is wonderful. However, if my problem had been this year, there is a distinct possibility I would not have been so lucky ... and many people are going through this now.My wife’s mammogram was delayed by six months ... she finally had it done a couple of weeks and is all clear ... but the six month delay could have caused problems and will no doubt do so for some. My sister-in-law has metastatic breast cancer. Her treatment has fortunately only been minimally impacted, but she knows of quite a number of others whose treatment has been severely impacted which will result in an earlier death.There are hundreds of thousands of such stories around. Covid cannot be our prime focus over the coming months as it was earlier in the year.The awful fact is that we face a decision on how many people will die ... my belief is that non-Covid issues must now take priority.I understand why others may think differently, but as I said before, this is not a zero risk scenario.
Are you suggesting that Covid patients should just be allowed to die?
By taking measures to stop the further spread of Covid, we will have a better chance of treating both Covid and non Covid patients.I said we have no choice but to find a balance. Whichever approach is taken will lead to many deaths, but we are not capable of covering everything, no country is. Decisions need to be made on how we can save the most lives.Stopping the further spread of Covid does little to help those I mentioned in my previous posts ... and these now far outnumber those at risk of being hospitalised by Covid.You have really pissed me off with your insinuation I want to leave people to die. My son was seriously ill with Covid in March ... so you are on my ‘ignore’ mode from now on.
If we let Covid run its own course, it will do nothing to help them as the hospitals will become filled with Covid patients again and all other treatments will be affected.
I am full aware of the effects on cancer patients of not getting the treatment they need, but to suggest that we ignore the spread of Covid, will not achieve the outcome you desire.1 -
A young(ish) guy kicking off on the station platform yesterday when challenged by staff and asked to use a face covering. Came out with the “breathing issues” excuse which certainly wasn’t evident from the ranting and raving he was directing towards the staff member.Baldybonce said:Mask Wearing.
As a non driver i spend a lot of time on buses visiting sites around Charlton, Greenwich and the up to Mottingham.
The vast majority of non compliance is by fit looking men between the ages of 14 to 35 and their attitude is they don't give a fuck.
I've seen one lady wearing a badge saying she was exempt.
Making the effort to get a badge and the driver refusing entry to those without one will possibly get the message across.0 -
As stated above not all disabilities are visible or physical and interfering busybodies can exacerbate them as the challenge in itself causes further stress to an already challenging situation.
In a free country the presumption should be innocence until proven guilty whatever the interfering busybody's personal prejudices as to the 'type' of person not wearing a mask.
To draw a parallel what would be the reaction to someone asserting every Asian carrying a rucksack on public transport is a terrorist?
They would be accused of bigotry yet there is no intellectual difference between that prejudice and the prejudice expressed countless times throughout this thread against those who do not wear masks for whatever reason.
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An innocent carrying a rucksack is 100% not causing any harm.LenGlover said:As stated above not all disabilities are visible or physical and interfering busybodies can exacerbate them as the challenge in itself causes further stress to an already challenging situation.
In a free country the presumption should be innocence until proven guilty whatever the interfering busybody's personal prejudices as to the 'type' of person not wearing a mask.
To draw a parallel what would be the reaction to someone asserting every Asian carrying a rucksack on public transport is a terrorist?
They would be accused of bigotry yet there is no intellectual difference between that prejudice and the prejudice expressed countless times throughout this thread against those who do not wear masks for whatever reason.
A person not wearing a mask may cause you serious harm or even kill you by passing on a deadly virus. It is not comparable in any way.
I massively dislike wearing a mask and it definitely causes me anxiety. But I am prepared to put up with my anxiety as I do not wish to potentially kill others around me.
If I'm not prepared to wear a mask, then I won't go anywhere it is required.
The wearing has become less worrying the more I get accustomed to it.9 -
There was nothing wrong with this guy. Everyone else on the platform was doing as requested and using a face covering. This was pointed out to him by the station platform staff and he was asked not to be selfish. He then started with the ‘don’t tell me what to do argument’ and then moved on to the “breathing difficulties” ballocks. He was then asked to leave the station and started kicking off even more. Not sure what happened in the end as my train arrived.LenGlover said:As stated above not all disabilities are visible or physical and interfering busybodies can exacerbate them as the challenge in itself causes further stress to an already challenging situation.
In a free country the presumption should be innocence until proven guilty whatever the interfering busybody's personal prejudices as to the 'type' of person not wearing a mask.
To draw a parallel what would be the reaction to someone asserting every Asian carrying a rucksack on public transport is a terrorist?
They would be accused of bigotry yet there is no intellectual difference between that prejudice and the prejudice expressed countless times throughout this thread against those who do not wear masks for whatever reason.
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Covered End said:
An innocent carrying a rucksack is 100% not causing any harm.LenGlover said:As stated above not all disabilities are visible or physical and interfering busybodies can exacerbate them as the challenge in itself causes further stress to an already challenging situation.
In a free country the presumption should be innocence until proven guilty whatever the interfering busybody's personal prejudices as to the 'type' of person not wearing a mask.
To draw a parallel what would be the reaction to someone asserting every Asian carrying a rucksack on public transport is a terrorist?
They would be accused of bigotry yet there is no intellectual difference between that prejudice and the prejudice expressed countless times throughout this thread against those who do not wear masks for whatever reason.
A person not wearing a mask may cause you serious harm or even kill you by passing on a deadly virus. It is not comparable in any way.
I massively dislike wearing a mask and it definitely causes me anxiety. But I am prepared to put up with my anxiety as I do not wish to potentially kill others around me.
If I'm not prepared to wear a mask, then I won't go anywhere it is required.
The wearing has become less worrying the more I get accustomed to it.0
