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Has Bowyer lost it?
Comments
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He will always be in credit, for me, but it seems like the long grind has ruined him. I would look to build for the future, if TS is serious about his plan we need a forward thinking manager that can stamp a style on the team, where everybody knows their roles. So many teams we have succumbed to this year have managed to do that on a fraction of our budget, by getting a team that is more than the sum of their parts, through having a tightly executed game plan. You can see the confidence it gives to a group of (often limited) players, and I don't think Bowyer has it in his locker, for all his strengths. If a manager that fits this brief is out there now, I would go for them, give them the rest of the season to assess the players and plan for 21/22.1
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It’s not like he has had a month to sort that out!!maddferrett said:This season is over and I don't blame Bowyer. We have no recognised centre backs to rely on. You can't win at football without a defence.8 -
Ah. The run. It’s been put back more times than Crossrail. There ain’t no run coming.MuttleyCAFC said:The season is not over if we can go on a run. We are no worse off than when Robinson was sacked. A new manager can change the mood and that can be massive.14 -
TS can't sack him the day after backing him in the transfer window. I'm getting bored of us resting players, especially when we haven't played for a week. Will we end up with fit players in mid table? We're now in last chance saloon IMO - need 4 consecutive wins. The VP show is actually better than the on pitch performances.
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So two people (Bowyer AND Gallen) say there werent any defenders available that would have strengthened usTodds_right_hook said:
It’s not like he has had a month to sort that out!!maddferrett said:This season is over and I don't blame Bowyer. We have no recognised centre backs to rely on. You can't win at football without a defence.
But we know better? - Who should we have signed then?
Its like what Bowyer said about Stockley, had PNE said to us, Bauer isnt good enough we want to ship him out to League One, do you think they'd have said "No thanks" - Had the right defender become available then I have no doubt we'd have signed one3 -
Trouble is when like tonight I'd say easily 8 players were really really poor what can you actually do as a manager. You've got experienced players like Gunter and Watson making basic mistakes and costing goalsWheresmeticket? said:I'm sick of hearing that the team or members of it let him down.
It's the managers job to support and lead his team to success. Leaders take the responsibility and the buck stops there. If he isn't happy with a performance issue he needs to do something that brings the performance up to scratch. If he can't do that, he can't do it.2 -
If I could see any kind of clear strategy and coherent thinking then I would say keep him, but we chop and change personnel and formation mid game every week. The players have no clue as to what their roles are. Our run is dismal and mainly against God awful teams.
You can't sack a bloke a day after a window you have allowed him to ship out 6 players and bring in 5 but IMO he should have gone a few weeks ago when it was clear the players were not performing under him for whatever reason.4 -
I’m probably defending Bowyer more than I naturally want to, I suspect that’s a defensive mechanism against those who I feel have very unfairly been gunning for him for a while. May just be me seeing it but It feels like every poor performance and defeat seems to be greeted with a ‘look, I’m right, I told you’ rather than just being gutted that we’d lost. I suppose we all react in different ways.However, if you praise the tactical set up for last week’s victory there is clearly some stand out questions on the changes for tonight. I think he clearly got it wrong tonight. Again, had we got that pen things may have gone differently but we didn’t. And the lack of width and wafer thin defensive protection every time they broke could / should have been addressed far earlier in the game.
So I think we are getting to the point where imo it’s now definitely fair to start asking questions. The players I think individually and collectively have let him down badly imo over the last couple of months. But you are the manager for a reason, you can’t be shielded from that criticism and it’s your role to positively address it.Outside the odd standout manager I think the vast majority in the game are much of a muchness. They all go through periods of highs and lows. Bowyer improved things after Robinson. Most of our fans would say Gobbo wasn’t a good manager. He’s been managing 11yrs now and in play off position. Is he a bad manager? Russell Slade was managing 22 years before us. Was he a bad manager? And so the cycle goes on.Replacing a well paid manager and his coaching staff with 18 months still on contract is not cheap and not our money. Contracts for new manager and coaching staff would all be additional unbudgeted expense that may lead to another player sale or a restriction in player budget next year to fund. If Sandgaard feels come summer after nine months he wants change and implementing his appointments, then so be it.
And If we failed to make the play offs there could be no excuses.
We’ve less games than others so we need to outperform now till May. Otherwise Bowyer will most likely be replaced.Tonight didn’t help one bit.16 -
Not with Bowyer in charge it aint.ShootersHillGuru said:
Ah. The run. It’s been put back more times than Crossrail. There ain’t no run coming.MuttleyCAFC said:The season is not over if we can go on a run. We are no worse off than when Robinson was sacked. A new manager can change the mood and that can be massive.3 -
Think too many on here got over excited about a win over an average MK team, in which we played pretty poorly.
Tactical masterclass it was not.9 - Sponsored links:
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He tries to be proactive before a ball is even kicked week in week out with these bizarre tinkerings. And consistently fucks it up each time.LargeAddick said:He’s always reactive not proactive. Bring Millar on when chasing the game, why not start him and get two goals ahead if he can only do 45 minutes?4 -
I’m not a scout and will not pretend to be so apologies fir not being able to list 15 centre backs off. Bowyer spent all month banging on about not needing a centre half as we have enough cover but yet We are shipping so many goals.ForeverAddickted said:
So two people (Bowyer AND Gallen) say there werent any defenders available that would have strengthened usTodds_right_hook said:
It’s not like he has had a month to sort that out!!maddferrett said:This season is over and I don't blame Bowyer. We have no recognised centre backs to rely on. You can't win at football without a defence.
But we know better? - Who should we have signed then?
Its like what Bowyer said about Stockley, had PNE said to us, Bauer isnt good enough we want to ship him out to League One, do you think they'd have said "No thanks" - Had the right defender become available then I have no doubt we'd have signed one
So no clubs signed any centre halves this month? In the last 20 games, how many times have we played a midfielder or full back at centre back? I’m pretty sure that there are better centre backs available than Chris Gunter or Darren pratley.4 -
The positive last week was that we got a win but I could see that if we played at that level, we were not going to get the number of wins we need and said as much. My hope was/is that wins breed confidence as it is clearly at rock bottom, but we were not good in the second half last week. Indeed we were not great after the first twenty minutes after we scored the goal.AFKABartram said:I’m probably defending Bowyer more than I naturally want to, I suspect that’s a defensive mechanism against those who I feel have very unfairly been gunning for him for a while. May just be me seeing it but It feels like every poor performance and defeat seems to be greeted with a ‘look, I’m right, I told you’ rather than just being gutted that we’d lost. I suppose we all react in different ways.However, if you praise the tactical set up for last week’s victory there is clearly some stand out questions on the changes for tonight. I think he clearly got it wrong tonight. Again, had we got that pen things may have gone differently but we didn’t. And the lack of width and wafer thin defensive protection every time they broke could / should have been addressed far earlier in the game.
So I think we are getting to the point where imo it’s now definitely fair to start asking questions. The players I think individually and collectively have let him down badly imo over the last couple of months. But you are the manager for a reason, you can’t be shielded from that criticism and it’s your role to positively address it.Outside the odd standout manager I think the vast majority in the game are much of a muchness. They all go through periods of highs and lows. Bowyer improved things after Robinson. Most of our fans would say Gobbo wasn’t a good manager. He’s been managing 11yrs now and in play off position. Is he a bad manager? Russell Slade was managing 22 years before us. Was he a bad manager? And so the cycle goes on.Replacing a well paid manager and his coaching staff with 18 months still on contract is not cheap and not our money. Contracts for new manager and coaching staff would all be additional unbudgeted expense that may lead to another player sale or a restriction in player budget next year to fund. If Sandgaard feels come summer after nine months he wants change and implementing his appointments, then so be it.
And If we failed to make the play offs there could be no excuses.
We’ve less games than others so we need to outperform now till May. Otherwise Bowyer will most likely be replaced.Tonight didn’t help one bit.0 -
Dunno, expect there must have been someone. Darling at MK Dons looked like a decent enough young prospect considering he was being asked alot of as a debutant.ForeverAddickted said:
So two people (Bowyer AND Gallen) say there werent any defenders available that would have strengthened usTodds_right_hook said:
It’s not like he has had a month to sort that out!!maddferrett said:This season is over and I don't blame Bowyer. We have no recognised centre backs to rely on. You can't win at football without a defence.
But we know better? - Who should we have signed then?
Its like what Bowyer said about Stockley, had PNE said to us, Bauer isnt good enough we want to ship him out to League One, do you think they'd have said "No thanks" - Had the right defender become available then I have no doubt we'd have signed one0 -
I would have looked for a player who has a bit of pace (nothing amazingly silly) and is half decent in the air. Not the greatest centre half in the country or even league one, but his leading attributes needed to be those two areas. Maybe we have such a player in Barker.0
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I think that's why Bow was so relaxed in the post match interview. He can't legislate for conceding a header in the 6 yard box from a set piece, or the most experienced player on the pitch not putting his foot through it.agim said:
Trouble is when like tonight I'd say easily 8 players were really really poor what can you actually do as a manager. You've got experienced players like Gunter and Watson making basic mistakes and costing goalsWheresmeticket? said:I'm sick of hearing that the team or members of it let him down.
It's the managers job to support and lead his team to success. Leaders take the responsibility and the buck stops there. If he isn't happy with a performance issue he needs to do something that brings the performance up to scratch. If he can't do that, he can't do it.1 -
Erring in the get rid camp now. Sorry Lee and thank you.
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Did we put a bid in for Jack Tucker, local lad, doesn't count under the cap?ForeverAddickted said:
So two people (Bowyer AND Gallen) say there werent any defenders available that would have strengthened usTodds_right_hook said:
It’s not like he has had a month to sort that out!!maddferrett said:This season is over and I don't blame Bowyer. We have no recognised centre backs to rely on. You can't win at football without a defence.
But we know better? - Who should we have signed then?
Its like what Bowyer said about Stockley, had PNE said to us, Bauer isnt good enough we want to ship him out to League One, do you think they'd have said "No thanks" - Had the right defender become available then I have no doubt we'd have signed one0 -
ForeverAddickted said:
Was Bowyer a mediorce manager when we went up two years ago?hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
No point sticking with a mediocre manager.agim said:Stick with him. We've had too many managers over the last 10 years and the club needs stability. It looks like we have it with TS so let's back him and build something. THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN OVERNIGHT. We had our best periods under Curbs after giving him time.0 -
Bowyer is stubborn and won’t change. We need a big lump who can get his head to the ball, body in the way of shots and hoof the ball clear. A short term solution until one of famewo and innis is back, so that we dont need to play Gunter out of position anymore.cafcfan1990 said:
Did we put a bid in for Jack Tucker, local lad, doesn't count under the cap?ForeverAddickted said:
So two people (Bowyer AND Gallen) say there werent any defenders available that would have strengthened usTodds_right_hook said:
It’s not like he has had a month to sort that out!!maddferrett said:This season is over and I don't blame Bowyer. We have no recognised centre backs to rely on. You can't win at football without a defence.
But we know better? - Who should we have signed then?
Its like what Bowyer said about Stockley, had PNE said to us, Bauer isnt good enough we want to ship him out to League One, do you think they'd have said "No thanks" - Had the right defender become available then I have no doubt we'd have signed one
The problem is, bowyer wants a nabby sarr who can build attacks from the bag and that type of defender isn’t available.0 - Sponsored links:
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Dont think we did...cafcfan1990 said:
Did we put a bid in for Jack Tucker, local lad, doesn't count under the cap?ForeverAddickted said:
So two people (Bowyer AND Gallen) say there werent any defenders available that would have strengthened usTodds_right_hook said:
It’s not like he has had a month to sort that out!!maddferrett said:This season is over and I don't blame Bowyer. We have no recognised centre backs to rely on. You can't win at football without a defence.
But we know better? - Who should we have signed then?
Its like what Bowyer said about Stockley, had PNE said to us, Bauer isnt good enough we want to ship him out to League One, do you think they'd have said "No thanks" - Had the right defender become available then I have no doubt we'd have signed one
Cant remember if Cawley said he was a genuine target or not0 -
The thing is, Inniss is a bit of a donkey ability wise. He is a player nobody would fancy playing against though. He is strong and wins most aerial balls all over the pitch. And there isn't much opponents can do about it.
Not league one ones anyway.1 -
Not for League 1 side it isn't. Medley was another choice, again been local and surely a more sensible choice than Smith.Todds_right_hook said:
Bowyer is stubborn and won’t change. We need a big lump who can get his head to the ball, body in the way of shots and hoof the ball clear. A short term solution until one of famewo and innis is back, so that we dont need to play Gunter out of position anymore.cafcfan1990 said:
Did we put a bid in for Jack Tucker, local lad, doesn't count under the cap?ForeverAddickted said:
So two people (Bowyer AND Gallen) say there werent any defenders available that would have strengthened usTodds_right_hook said:
It’s not like he has had a month to sort that out!!maddferrett said:This season is over and I don't blame Bowyer. We have no recognised centre backs to rely on. You can't win at football without a defence.
But we know better? - Who should we have signed then?
Its like what Bowyer said about Stockley, had PNE said to us, Bauer isnt good enough we want to ship him out to League One, do you think they'd have said "No thanks" - Had the right defender become available then I have no doubt we'd have signed one
The problem is, bowyer wants a nabby sarr who can build attacks from the bag and that type of defender isn’t available.0 -
Then why not? Rated, with Famewo not ours and Inniss' injury record makes perfect sense if we're building for the future. Doesn't count under the cap and we can release Pearce in the summer.ForeverAddickted said:
Dont think we did...cafcfan1990 said:
Did we put a bid in for Jack Tucker, local lad, doesn't count under the cap?ForeverAddickted said:
So two people (Bowyer AND Gallen) say there werent any defenders available that would have strengthened usTodds_right_hook said:
It’s not like he has had a month to sort that out!!maddferrett said:This season is over and I don't blame Bowyer. We have no recognised centre backs to rely on. You can't win at football without a defence.
But we know better? - Who should we have signed then?
Its like what Bowyer said about Stockley, had PNE said to us, Bauer isnt good enough we want to ship him out to League One, do you think they'd have said "No thanks" - Had the right defender become available then I have no doubt we'd have signed one
Cant remember if Cawley said he was a genuine target or not0 -
But it isn't just tonight is it, and it isn't just one or two players. When players you can reasonably expect to be a safe pair of hands are making basic errors and that is being replicated across the team, across a few performances across a significant period of time the job of a manager is to address that. And it isn't just that he is not addressing it with the players he has been working with for a while, he is failing to get newer players onside to whatever his vision may be. Unless, as I suspect, he has no idea of what that vision may be, and that lack of clarity and direction is communicating itself more strongly to the team that anything he intends to get across.agim said:
Trouble is when like tonight I'd say easily 8 players were really really poor what can you actually do as a manager. You've got experienced players like Gunter and Watson making basic mistakes and costing goalsWheresmeticket? said:I'm sick of hearing that the team or members of it let him down.
It's the managers job to support and lead his team to success. Leaders take the responsibility and the buck stops there. If he isn't happy with a performance issue he needs to do something that brings the performance up to scratch. If he can't do that, he can't do it.2 -
This hasn't been going on six months, the symptoms have been there for over a year.Callumcafc said:
It was the right time for Robinson to go because he'd already had 18 months (74 games) at it in this league getting us nowhere. Bowyer's had six months (26 games).MuttleyCAFC said:
He is on a path to being sacked, that is how it is going to end. I've seen enough football to know when a manager has lost it. Maybe Lee can find it somewhere else, but for me it is a question of dragging this out or seeing if somebody else can turn THIS season around. Like Bowyer did when Robinson was sacked. Maybe you didn't think that was the right thing to do.agim said:
I agree we are well off this year but In my eyes he deserves more time and to re-build. I don't want to be a sacking clubLargeAddick said:
Of course we don’t have an automatic right to get promoted but it would be nice to see some semblance of a settled team, some semblance of a game plan, some idea of tactics. I don’t have a problem losing but at least give them a game. I’m done with Bowyer.agim said:
You were saying it like we have the right to automatically get promoted. We don't and some of our fans need to be realistic.Todds_right_hook said:
Okay, let’s pretend we aren’t currently in league 1agim said:
Another it's only League one quote.Todds_right_hook said:
This is league 1, an awful league one at that. On current former, bowyer is taking us to our worst league position in most Charlton supporters life times.ForeverAddickted said:Its potentially an interesting discussion for another thread
But is it a sign of how Technology has changed since 1992 what with the introduction of Internet Forums etc.
My point is in 1991/92 we finished 7th under Curbs and Gritt
The following year we had a period were we got 14-points from seventeen games, ended up 12th in the League
This season we're going through a period of 18-points from seventeen games
Should Curbs and Gritt have gone?Can’t really compare to grit and curbs in a league above
Bowyer has never recovered from the injury crisis we had last autumn. We were flying until the injuries started building. We even played well when loosing games with a bunch of kids. Derby and Swansea away stand out.
Then the negative tactics and digging players out slowly started. The chopping and changing, the changing formations.
Do I blame Bowyer for relegation, of course not, it would have been a miracle if we had stayed up. But he had done the impossible in the first 3 months and he undid some of it himself.
When was the last time we played well for 90 minutes? Who since January 2020 has played consistently well?
I suspect if I asked that in February 2020 about the previous 12 months you could name plenty of players, some of which have still been here until very recently.13 -
I couldn't agree more. I was still full of praise for Bowyer getting through the injuries that were unreal. But this and the ESI nonsense clearly took his toll on him and he became a totally different manager. A psychiatrist is probably needed to explain it, but it is there for all to see. He was the opposite of what he is now in everything he does!Cafc43v3r said:
This hasn't been going on six months, the symptoms have been there for over a year.Callumcafc said:
It was the right time for Robinson to go because he'd already had 18 months (74 games) at it in this league getting us nowhere. Bowyer's had six months (26 games).MuttleyCAFC said:
He is on a path to being sacked, that is how it is going to end. I've seen enough football to know when a manager has lost it. Maybe Lee can find it somewhere else, but for me it is a question of dragging this out or seeing if somebody else can turn THIS season around. Like Bowyer did when Robinson was sacked. Maybe you didn't think that was the right thing to do.agim said:
I agree we are well off this year but In my eyes he deserves more time and to re-build. I don't want to be a sacking clubLargeAddick said:
Of course we don’t have an automatic right to get promoted but it would be nice to see some semblance of a settled team, some semblance of a game plan, some idea of tactics. I don’t have a problem losing but at least give them a game. I’m done with Bowyer.agim said:
You were saying it like we have the right to automatically get promoted. We don't and some of our fans need to be realistic.Todds_right_hook said:
Okay, let’s pretend we aren’t currently in league 1agim said:
Another it's only League one quote.Todds_right_hook said:
This is league 1, an awful league one at that. On current former, bowyer is taking us to our worst league position in most Charlton supporters life times.ForeverAddickted said:Its potentially an interesting discussion for another thread
But is it a sign of how Technology has changed since 1992 what with the introduction of Internet Forums etc.
My point is in 1991/92 we finished 7th under Curbs and Gritt
The following year we had a period were we got 14-points from seventeen games, ended up 12th in the League
This season we're going through a period of 18-points from seventeen games
Should Curbs and Gritt have gone?Can’t really compare to grit and curbs in a league above
Bowyer has never recovered from the injury crisis we had last autumn. We were flying until the injuries started building. We even played well when loosing games with a bunch of kids. Derby and Swansea away stand out.
Then the negative tactics and digging players out slowly started. The chopping and changing, the changing formations.
Do I blame Bowyer for relegation, of course not, it would have been a miracle if we had stayed up. But he had done the impossible in the first 3 months and he undid some of it himself.
When was the last time we played well for 90 minutes? Who since January 2020 has played consistently well?
I suspect if I asked that in February 2020 about the previous 12 months you could name plenty of players, some of which have still been here until very recently.4 -
It doesn't really matter does it? If the team was playing to its potential we wouldn't have drawn those games anyway would would have been 2 or 3 up.ForeverAddickted said:
But how do you know the decision that resulted in a draw at Shrewsbury and Swindon etc. wouldnt have been worse had Bowyer done differently?Bolderhumphreyreid said:
Fair comment about hindsight but Bowyers done it about 10 times since. That’s with hindsight!ForeverAddickted said:
Ahh the beauty of hindsight again, that another poster wouldnt allow me to use last weekLargeAddick said:
When I say negativity think Birmingham away. 1-0 up, ten minutes to go, bring on extra defenders, drop too deep, concede a last minute goal. See that game out and we’d have stayed up. And that wasn’t an isolated incident.agim said:
I dunno about that. I think the injuries played a HUGE partLargeAddick said:We got relegated last season through Bowyer’s negativity but he got a free hit because the club was a shit show. He’s skating on very, very thin ice now.
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But he's had nearly 3 seasons at the helm and has regressed tactically in that time. It can't be denied the last 16 months haven't been great in spite of the challenges faced.Callumcafc said:
It was the right time for Robinson to go because he'd already had 18 months (74 games) at it in this league getting us nowhere. Bowyer's had six months (26 games).MuttleyCAFC said:
He is on a path to being sacked, that is how it is going to end. I've seen enough football to know when a manager has lost it. Maybe Lee can find it somewhere else, but for me it is a question of dragging this out or seeing if somebody else can turn THIS season around. Like Bowyer did when Robinson was sacked. Maybe you didn't think that was the right thing to do.agim said:
I agree we are well off this year but In my eyes he deserves more time and to re-build. I don't want to be a sacking clubLargeAddick said:
Of course we don’t have an automatic right to get promoted but it would be nice to see some semblance of a settled team, some semblance of a game plan, some idea of tactics. I don’t have a problem losing but at least give them a game. I’m done with Bowyer.agim said:
You were saying it like we have the right to automatically get promoted. We don't and some of our fans need to be realistic.Todds_right_hook said:
Okay, let’s pretend we aren’t currently in league 1agim said:
Another it's only League one quote.Todds_right_hook said:
This is league 1, an awful league one at that. On current former, bowyer is taking us to our worst league position in most Charlton supporters life times.ForeverAddickted said:Its potentially an interesting discussion for another thread
But is it a sign of how Technology has changed since 1992 what with the introduction of Internet Forums etc.
My point is in 1991/92 we finished 7th under Curbs and Gritt
The following year we had a period were we got 14-points from seventeen games, ended up 12th in the League
This season we're going through a period of 18-points from seventeen games
Should Curbs and Gritt have gone?Can’t really compare to grit and curbs in a league above
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Well he had a squad of players that frankly it would have been embarrassing not to go up. Sarr, Bauer, Djiksteel, Taylor, Grant, Cullen, Bielik, Aribo etc. An embarrassment of riches (let’s not consider who owned us at the time) and worth millions with players in the premier league / solid championship nowBillericaydickie said:ForeverAddickted said:
Was Bowyer a mediorce manager when we went up two years ago?hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
No point sticking with a mediocre manager.agim said:Stick with him. We've had too many managers over the last 10 years and the club needs stability. It looks like we have it with TS so let's back him and build something. THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN OVERNIGHT. We had our best periods under Curbs after giving him time.5
This discussion has been closed.
