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Post-match Thread: Fleetwood v Charlton | Sat 20 Feb 2021
Comments
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They didn't score in the second half and they are like a lot of sides in this division, they rely on winning second ball and Charlton play keep ball. It could probably be argued we should mix it more but just look at Millars frustration when balls were pinged over his head and not to his feet. Just listen to Steve Brown's comments, the game and point yesterday has changed nothing, we must win our home games.1
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The reason we were trying to play it out from the back was that we couldn't get it upfield from Amos' kicks. It was highly dangerous, but with the high press, so was kicking it. I find it hilarious that people are saying Fleetwood play in these conditions regularly.RedRobin said:In my opinion Bowyer has been struggling since last season, circumstances were dire so he got a lot of slack. Players refusing to play and a mountain of injuries but that is no excuse for poor tactics! Now we look soft, not bothered and unsure.The times yesterday when we were trying to play out from the back which just wasn’t working as they were pressing us, after the third time of giving Fleetwood the ball outside our box I screamed at the TV!!These players are not confident and this stems from the coaching and it showed for 90 minutes yesterday. That line up was good yesterday but other than Stockley, they looked awful! Give him til the end of the season then review it, with a full summer and decent budget maybe we can go again next season but a complete overhaul is needed and maybe some have downed tools already.
You have windy days everywhere, and even very windy days and it was always my preference to play against the wind in the first half in these conditions and anything from a one goal deficit or better puts you in a decent position to win the game. When you play the first half with the wind, you have to always be thinking about the second half and play with added urgency. I fear that no team of Bowyer as he is now would ever do that. And to be fair we didn't.
We won't have to deal with these conditions on a regular basis, but an understanding of what you have to do, and the tactics around it are football basics I'm afraid. Bowyer is negative about everything. If you told him he had won the lottery he would probably focus on how it might detrimentally affect his marriage! He is a shell of the manager he was pre ESI and seemingly with no great desire for a management career. He thrived on having nothing to lose as it where.
It is ironic that when he has something he fears losing, he makes losing it more likely. That is where having balls comes in. He could still turn it round. For starters, he could get the squad together and apologise for himself. take the pressure off of them and put it on himself as the best managers do. Then he can have faith in them and play with an intent to win every game comfortably. Sadly, he seems to be a person that goes into a shell when things go against him and I doubt he has that ability to reset.2 -
It's such a shame that we had to send out such an inexperienced team who have never had to play in the wind before. I assume the 2000 odd games Gunter, Pratley, Watson and Shinnie have previously played were all in near perfect conditions on bowling greens.oohaahmortimer said:
Fleetwood are more used to links football than we areCardinal Sin said:
More importantly, the conditions didn't stop Fleetwood playing football.Cafc43v3r said:
No they don't mateRonnieMoore said:
Highlights don’t show how difficult the conditions were let’s not forget Fleetwood play in that weather and that pitch every home home game through the winter months so are use to it and know how to play it as the second half proved ... first half we done ok and deserved to go in at HT 1-0 ...golfaddick said:Didn't buy the stream and only saw the goals on Sky earlier. Have just now watched the "highlights" posted on the Rolling Reels thread.
Just one meaningful effort at goal during 90 mins of football whereas Fleetwood had 4 or 5.
Dreadful. Fucking dreadful.
You don't win many games of football with those stats. Thing is, it's not new. Week in & week out we have very few attempts at goal & are often "out stat -ed" by our opponents. Something has to change.
If you watched Liverpool v Everton .. they said Liverpool could not cope with the very windy conditions and affected the way they play .. this is a club who won champions League and title holders yet they said it was impossible to play football in these conditions ... now if it affected Liverpool sure it’s affected Charlton as well .... so said before it was a very good point when you look at the whole picture
Also it didn't affect Everton, so why should it affect Charlton? Or are we such a more cultured passing team? That's some take.8 -
And I thought it was just me that posted rubbish.RonnieMoore said:
Highlights don’t show how difficult the conditions were let’s not forget Fleetwood play in that weather and that pitch every home home game through the winter months so are use to it and know how to play it as the second half proved ... first half we done ok and deserved to go in at HT 1-0 ...golfaddick said:Didn't buy the stream and only saw the goals on Sky earlier. Have just now watched the "highlights" posted on the Rolling Reels thread.
Just one meaningful effort at goal during 90 mins of football whereas Fleetwood had 4 or 5.
Dreadful. Fucking dreadful.
You don't win many games of football with those stats. Thing is, it's not new. Week in & week out we have very few attempts at goal & are often "out stat -ed" by our opponents. Something has to change.
If you watched Liverpool v Everton .. they said Liverpool could not cope with the very windy conditions and affected the way they play .. this is a club who won champions League and title holders yet they said it was impossible to play football in these conditions ... now if it affected Liverpool sure it’s affected Charlton as well .... so said before it was a very good point when you look at the whole picture4 -
Who did you play and manage with?MuttleyCAFC said:
In all my years watching professional football, playing and managing at a lower level, I have never ever seen a team benefit from playing against a wind like that, Never. You have to take advantage when the conditions are for you.superclive98 said:
How can you not be critical of the second half?MuttleyCAFC said:I am not critical of the second half. It was the first half where we let the game slip.
Yes, we were shit in the first half when we had a lead to defend and should have done so much better but in the second half we were beyond awful, probably the worst performance in a long time and there is a lot of competition under Bowyer for that "accolade".
We had a dream start and sat back on it. The mindset of the manager has to factor in the wind we will be playing against in the second and try to get a good lead in the first. There was no reason we couldn't do what they did in the second in the first. Only the conservative negativity of the manager.0 -
To be fair we would probably get a point at Stornoway too.golfaddick said:
Sorry, that's a load if crap & you defeated yourself with the Liverpool bit as Everton (if you didnt know) play their football just a stones throw away across Stanley Park so if they are used to it then so are Liverpool.RonnieMoore said:
Highlights don’t show how difficult the conditions were let’s not forget Fleetwood play in that weather and that pitch every home home game through the winter months so are use to it and know how to play it as the second half proved ... first half we done ok and deserved to go in at HT 1-0 ...golfaddick said:Didn't buy the stream and only saw the goals on Sky earlier. Have just now watched the "highlights" posted on the Rolling Reels thread.
Just one meaningful effort at goal during 90 mins of football whereas Fleetwood had 4 or 5.
Dreadful. Fucking dreadful.
You don't win many games of football with those stats. Thing is, it's not new. Week in & week out we have very few attempts at goal & are often "out stat -ed" by our opponents. Something has to change.
If you watched Liverpool v Everton .. they said Liverpool could not cope with the very windy conditions and affected the way they play .. this is a club who won champions League and title holders yet they said it was impossible to play football in these conditions ... now if it affected Liverpool sure it’s affected Charlton as well .... so said before it was a very good point when you look at the whole picture
And Fleetwood don't play in those conditions every week Jeez, they are only on the West coast, along with Blackpool, Carlisle & Morecombe........not bloody Stornaway or the Outer Hebrides. If you happened to notice the wind was pretty strong everywhere today - even at West Brom, which is pretty much slap bang in the middle of the fecking country.2 -
Definitely a bad patch but I still trust LB to get us out of it - I’m not even close to having to dip into any reserves of loyalty to the man who stood by us throughout Roland and ESI. And when I do get to that point he deserves a lot of faith (and time) for what he put up with.If we don’t get out this season I will be looking forward to a summer window with a great owner and a proper pre-season to tackle this division on a level playing field.
I totally realise everyone is entitled to their opinion and respect the FFS merchants. I’m just not one of them. A run of home wins would be nice though in the not too distant future.6 -
I don't see Bowyer ever managing at the top level based on what I have seen as he doesn't appear to be developing as a coach. Tactically he seems to be outhought far too often.3
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Most frustrating thing is that opening goal was a bit of a quality and wouldn’t look out of place in the top division. No idea what happened after that.4
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We were poor for the majority of that match and were lucky to escape with a point.
Fleetwood must encounter those windy conditions frequently on their own patch so not a complete surprise that they coped better than us.4 - Sponsored links:
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He plays and sets us up not to lose and as soon as we take the lead we sit back. Impose our game on them and dictate our game.
Why buy the Swindon lad and not start him in any game?!
I don't see Smith currently being better for us in the middle of midfield of the dog shit league than Albie Morgan.
One bad game and he's bombed out. How many second chances do Pearce, Gunther, Watson, Desi get?!
The side should be built around Innis, Morgan, JFC, Chuks and DJ now. And we need to extend Chuks and JFC's contracts.5 -
And if you set up not to lose and your defence is too error prone, you end up doing what we have for the past year.
When you dig players out it has ramifications within the dressing room. The cure is to win games, but when you are on a poor run the morale gets worse. We are so in need of a reset it is unreal.
We may not have the best squad in our history, but we have good players for league one and the squad has depth. The team lacks confidence and direction and if you add that, you might see something positive, even this season.
Robinson is not a bad manager at this level and is showing that with Oxford, but he was getting into a rut and wasn't taking us anywhere when Bowyer replaced him. It happens in football and it rarely gets turned around at the manager's current club.1 -
Now then,my wife goes on another website,and has heard rumours that Roddy is the problem.he has come in and is apparently in the ear of TS complaining that Bowyers tactics etc. are archaic he is trying to be the main man trying to over rule some of the clubs loyal employees.
Now this could be bollocks,but while not sure of the timing,it does appear to me that when Roddy came,was round about the start of the slump.
Also is anybody sure what he does,he is supposed to smooth the process of kids going through our academy to the 1st team.Really,did we need someone to oversee this,we have a superb record of kids making it at the top level,this may well piss off Avory and Gallen.Bowyer looked beaten yesterday,and has looked steadily more depressed every week,He was not like this at the start of the season,and could well be taking the flak when he is being undermined.1 -
It would make some sense. But Roddy came in after we turned into a negative back foot team. Personally, I would like us to keep Gallen and JJ. It feels to me that the behaviours holding us back are likely to come from Bowyer and are not a collective issue.
I would say that Bowyer has been like this for some time. Quite a few fans seem to have forgotten how positive he was. It is crazy how different the bloke is.
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Whenever we had a serious slump under Curbs people would start pointing the finger at Mervyn Day. The conspiracies would start appearing on the message boards, etc. This Roddy stuff is just the same cycle.1
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Sorry to swear but this is Roddy stuff is on ITTV, and maybe a large pinch of salt is needed
I feel that Thomas is his own man and will make his own decisions without any help or hinderance
from Roddy, he has always backed Lee, up to now anyway, but lets just hope Tuesday goes well
or the shit and the fan may well come together.0 -
Didnt watch but thought 1-1 away was ok. Having read this thread seems like it was abismal! 🙈😂🤢0
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Watching yesterday's game from the minute after we scored was like having somebody repeatedly tapping your head with a hammer. Actually, given the option, I'd probably choose the hammer.2121 said:Didnt watch but thought 1-1 away was ok. Having read this thread seems like it was abismal! 🙈😂🤢2 -
😆 🤣 😂 snapRedRobin said:In my opinion Bowyer has been struggling since last season, circumstances were dire so he got a lot of slack. Players refusing to play and a mountain of injuries but that is no excuse for poor tactics! Now we look soft, not bothered and unsure.The times yesterday when we were trying to play out from the back which just wasn’t working as they were pressing us, after the third time of giving Fleetwood the ball outside our box I screamed at the TV!!These players are not confident and this stems from the coaching and it showed for 90 minutes yesterday. That line up was good yesterday but other than Stockley, they looked awful! Give him til the end of the season then review it, with a full summer and decent budget maybe we can go again next season but a complete overhaul is needed and maybe some have downed tools already.0 -
Remember when the mantra was "we need experienced Championship players..." ? We've got that in abundance now with Shinnie, Gunter Pratley and Watson.rananegra said:
We don't see any academy players this season either except Morgan and Doughty, are they really not good enough? Because they looked alright in the cups when they were played. It's getting hard to identify with this team.
Where is the next Konsa, Grant, Lookman, Pope, Doughty etc? Currently blocked by a bunch of very moderate players and possibly by a manager who is afraid to use them?2 - Sponsored links:
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Wouldn't you rather Thomas took advice from a "football person" than made up his own mind without it?eastterrace6168 said:Sorry to swear but this is Roddy stuff is on ITTV, and maybe a large pinch of salt is needed
I feel that Thomas is his own man and will make his own decisions without any help or hinderance
from Roddy, he has always backed Lee, up to now anyway, but lets just hope Tuesday goes well
or the shit and the fan may well come together.
No disrespect to Thomas but he probably knows about as much (little) about football managment and the 3rd tier of English football as most people on this forum.0 -
Might be an unpopular view but if Lee goes I don't mind if Gallen and Jackson go as well.
I feel Jacko wouldn't make a good Charlton manager. He has to take blame for the situation we are in as well as he also coaches. If you don't think he takes any blame that would suggest he isn't standing up to Bowyers methods and suggests to me he lacks spine and the character needed to mangage footballers. It's either he is a coach void of ideas like Bowyer or he doesn't have to nerve to call out Lee, neither a good look imo
As for Gallen I think he speaks well but ultimately I believe he is overrated due to him getting in players during a period where everything was bleak. Most of the players that we got that succeeded had big potential anyway or were proven. We have taken in far too many players that are injury prone or haven't performed and when we had the budget to fix the area we needed the most (centre back) he couldn't find one. In all of the footballing world our recruitment team couldn't find a centre back. I find it extremely hard to believe. Again it will be an unpopular view and I am in no way saying Steve is a root problem but I would like to see a clean slate with a complete new team1 -
Personally, I think our recruitment has been good and not the problem. As for JJ, I would want to know more about the situation. I can't see how given his position, he can stand up to Bowyer. If I was Sandgaard, I'd find out what the players think about him. I could be wrong, but I think he is popular.1
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If you feel that about Jackson now, didn't you feel that about Bowyer when Robinson was wed to 4231 and it obviously wasn't working?Braziliance said:Might be an unpopular view but if Lee goes I don't mind if Gallen and Jackson go as well.
I feel Jacko wouldn't make a good Charlton manager. He has to take blame for the situation we are in as well as he also coaches. If you don't think he takes any blame that would suggest he isn't standing up to Bowyers methods and suggests to me he lacks spine and the character needed to mangage footballers. It's either he is a coach void of ideas like Bowyer or he doesn't have to nerve to call out Lee, neither a good look imo
As for Gallen I think he speaks well but ultimately I believe he is overrated due to him getting in players during a period where everything was bleak. Most of the players that we got that succeeded had big potential anyway or were proven. We have taken in far too many players that are injury prone or haven't performed and when we had the budget to fix the area we needed the most (centre back) he couldn't find one. In all of the footballing world our recruitment team couldn't find a centre back. I find it extremely hard to believe. Again it will be an unpopular view and I am in no way saying Steve is a root problem but I would like to see a clean slate with a complete new team3 -
Fair point, and agree to a degree, but what Thomas doesn't want is an unbalanced and potentially biased opinion, so sure take advice, but make sure it is balanced and not from a single point of view.Cafc43v3r said:
Wouldn't you rather Thomas took advice from a "football person" than made up his own mind without it?eastterrace6168 said:Sorry to swear but this is Roddy stuff is on ITTV, and maybe a large pinch of salt is needed
I feel that Thomas is his own man and will make his own decisions without any help or hinderance
from Roddy, he has always backed Lee, up to now anyway, but lets just hope Tuesday goes well
or the shit and the fan may well come together.
No disrespect to Thomas but he probably knows about as much (little) about football managment and the 3rd tier of English football as most people on this forum.
Thomas i am sure has been doing this for some time, and will make sure all angles are covered.0 -
Blame the pitch, blame the wind, blame whatever you like but the sad truth is we looked awful the second half.
No we didn't go into our shell and defend after we scored, they pressed every time we had the ball
and never allowed us to settle.
They had obviously identified our most dangerous player Millar marking him with three players when he had the ball.
The game passed Smith by in the first half and make excuses for Schwartz (he didn't get the service)
but he looked lost the few times he had possession.
Maatsen looked out of his depth defending.
The conditions certainty never affected Fleetwood, they had a coherent game plan and stuck to it.
Make no mistake, they should have and deserved to win.
Not sure where we go from here.1 -
Amos's goal kicks from then on took an absolute age. he would walk to pick up the ball behind the goal and take his time placing it and contemplating on where to boot it (usually off for a throw in)JamesSeed said:Anyone else pick up on Terry Smith’s commentary line ten or fifteen minutes after we scored? Amos was about to take a goal kick, and Bowyer shouted for him to ‘calm down’ or ‘slow it down’ or something?
It’s this negative mind set: we’re one up, now let’s be ‘professional’ and see out the game.Up to that point we’d looked lively, and if anyone was likely to score another goal it was probably us. After that, all the life seemed to be sucked out of us.Just let them play football, and maybe stop interfering when it’s going ok.Would like another look at the coverage to check, but it won’t be on Valley Pass I guess.
I don't blame Amos for this but the negative tactics. It spread right through the whole team. We never went on the counter attack and we were holding out for 80 plus minutes.1 -
Needed to play some football and press while we had the wind behind us. Instead we were happy to sit back and kick the ball up the field to "win" a goal kick over and over again.
Like 13 year old kids who'd never played football before. How can that happen at a professional football club?
Something is badly wrong.5 -
I don't think it's the number 1 problem but I just think it's a tad overhyped. The most influential signings we have had were sought after or already proven that's all. When we really needed a player the most and had the means to do it they failed to deliver.MuttleyCAFC said:Personally, I think our recruitment has been good and not the problem. As for JJ, I would want to know more about the situation. I can't see how given his position, he can stand up to Bowyer. If I was Sandgaard, I'd find out what the players think about him. I could be wrong, but I think he is popular.
Of course that it what he should do, I am just observing is all. Jacko is very much the sit on hands character to me, I am not sure if he would be a good fit for us and I wouldn't want what's a Charlton legends reputation with us tarnished. Maybe when he has proven himself in the future.
At the time being honest no. As the years have gone on though I reflect more and more on those situations though obviously. I feel again though Robinson was unfortunate to an extent, 4231 is a great formation, I just don't think it's a formation lower league players can handle or understand with the skillset they have. He was trying to play chess with checkers pieces.Cafc43v3r said:
If you feel that about Jackson now, didn't you feel that about Bowyer when Robinson was wed to 4231 and it obviously wasn't working?Braziliance said:Might be an unpopular view but if Lee goes I don't mind if Gallen and Jackson go as well.
I feel Jacko wouldn't make a good Charlton manager. He has to take blame for the situation we are in as well as he also coaches. If you don't think he takes any blame that would suggest he isn't standing up to Bowyers methods and suggests to me he lacks spine and the character needed to mangage footballers. It's either he is a coach void of ideas like Bowyer or he doesn't have to nerve to call out Lee, neither a good look imo
As for Gallen I think he speaks well but ultimately I believe he is overrated due to him getting in players during a period where everything was bleak. Most of the players that we got that succeeded had big potential anyway or were proven. We have taken in far too many players that are injury prone or haven't performed and when we had the budget to fix the area we needed the most (centre back) he couldn't find one. In all of the footballing world our recruitment team couldn't find a centre back. I find it extremely hard to believe. Again it will be an unpopular view and I am in no way saying Steve is a root problem but I would like to see a clean slate with a complete new team
I said it from the start, if Robinson was our manager with Thomas at the helm I genuinely think he would have been a success, two similar characters and positivity breeds positivity. Not that I want Robinson I am just saying he gets more grief than he deserves imo, nothing against the bloke0 -
If you are an assistant manager, your job is not to fight against the manager. JJ should not be automatically blamed for Bowyer's deficiencies.2
