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Crossrail
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what's it gonna do to the price of your fare thoughRothko said:Gonna knock 40 minutes off my commute, so quicker out of Abbey Wood works well for me0 -
I think it's a good slice off it, about a fiver on a return ticket as I don't need to go into Zone 1 anymore, it'll be Greenhithe-Abbey Wood-Whitechaple, rather then Greenhithe to London terminalsElthamaddick said:
what's it gonna do to the price of your fare thoughRothko said:Gonna knock 40 minutes off my commute, so quicker out of Abbey Wood works well for me0 -
Is crossrail the same price as tubes etc?0
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I go to Whitechapel and every day and it is crazy how long it's taking them to do some cosmetic work for the crossrail station. No wonder it's late and billions over budget.
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Bloody wish I'd bought me council house in Woolwich now. Oh well:(1
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What's the point of them completing the cosmetic work and mothballing the stations if they're not yet ready to run trains through? Project Management 101. Manage your constraints appropriately. If there's a start-finish constraint, that's totally different to a start-start or finish-finish constraint. The resource budget will have been costed for the cosmetic tasks, and having more resources doing them all over a short period, or less resources doing it over a longer period, provided they aren't causing an impact on tasks that should follow on after them, is immaterial.Croydon said:I go to Whitechapel and every day and it is crazy how long it's taking them to do some cosmetic work for the crossrail station. No wonder it's late and billions over budget.1 -
There may also be other factors in why the cosmetic work is not complete like testing different scenario's which by putting those cosmetic items in could have an impact on.Leroy Ambrose said:
What's the point of them completing the cosmetic work and mothballing the stations if they're not yet ready to run trains through? Project Management 101. Manage your constraints appropriately. If there's a start-finish constraint, that's totally different to a start-start or finish-finish constraint. The resource budget will have been costed for the cosmetic tasks, and having more resources doing them all over a short period, or less resources doing it over a longer period, provided they aren't causing an impact on tasks that should follow on after them, is immaterial.Croydon said:I go to Whitechapel and every day and it is crazy how long it's taking them to do some cosmetic work for the crossrail station. No wonder it's late and billions over budget.1 -
Why start it then? I'm talking about repaving outside of the station, it's not even anything that would affect the line or the station itself.Leroy Ambrose said:
What's the point of them completing the cosmetic work and mothballing the stations if they're not yet ready to run trains through? Project Management 101. Manage your constraints appropriately. If there's a start-finish constraint, that's totally different to a start-start or finish-finish constraint. The resource budget will have been costed for the cosmetic tasks, and having more resources doing them all over a short period, or less resources doing it over a longer period, provided they aren't causing an impact on tasks that should follow on after them, is immaterial.Croydon said:I go to Whitechapel and every day and it is crazy how long it's taking them to do some cosmetic work for the crossrail station. No wonder it's late and billions over budget.
Can guarantee the firms aren't being paid a set total on job completion, they'll be charging time back. Paving the walkway at a pace of one brick a day is how budgets get missed.0 -
Have you seen the programme? Do you think that a programme manager - probably paid around 150k a year - is just going to be guessing?Croydon said:
Why start it then? I'm talking about repaving outside of the station, it's not even anything that would affect the line or the station itself.Leroy Ambrose said:
What's the point of them completing the cosmetic work and mothballing the stations if they're not yet ready to run trains through? Project Management 101. Manage your constraints appropriately. If there's a start-finish constraint, that's totally different to a start-start or finish-finish constraint. The resource budget will have been costed for the cosmetic tasks, and having more resources doing them all over a short period, or less resources doing it over a longer period, provided they aren't causing an impact on tasks that should follow on after them, is immaterial.Croydon said:I go to Whitechapel and every day and it is crazy how long it's taking them to do some cosmetic work for the crossrail station. No wonder it's late and billions over budget.
Can guarantee the firms aren't being paid a set total on job completion, they'll be charging time back. Paving the walkway at a pace of one brick a day is how budgets get missed.
Don't get me wrong - the construction industry is full of all sorts of shit around planning, programming etc that makes no sense to the outside eye - but it's not as simple as you or I might think. The clue is in the expertise, experience and knowledge required to do the job.
And finally, they're not doing one brick per day. Don't be daft. And you can't 'miss' a budget, so not even sure what that means.
Tl;dr - you don't know how the job is being run - and it's daft to think that you can make a valid assessment of the complexity of the programme in the fifteen seconds a day you spend musing about it viewing it through your infinitesimally small slice of said programme from the train platform 😏0 - Sponsored links:
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I agree with the principle of what you say but you have more faith in DfT/TfL than I do to put in the relevant controls and contractual obligations to stop the contractors taking the pissLeroy Ambrose said:
Have you seen the programme? Do you think that a programme manager - probably paid around 150k a year - is just going to be guessing?Croydon said:
Why start it then? I'm talking about repaving outside of the station, it's not even anything that would affect the line or the station itself.Leroy Ambrose said:
What's the point of them completing the cosmetic work and mothballing the stations if they're not yet ready to run trains through? Project Management 101. Manage your constraints appropriately. If there's a start-finish constraint, that's totally different to a start-start or finish-finish constraint. The resource budget will have been costed for the cosmetic tasks, and having more resources doing them all over a short period, or less resources doing it over a longer period, provided they aren't causing an impact on tasks that should follow on after them, is immaterial.Croydon said:I go to Whitechapel and every day and it is crazy how long it's taking them to do some cosmetic work for the crossrail station. No wonder it's late and billions over budget.
Can guarantee the firms aren't being paid a set total on job completion, they'll be charging time back. Paving the walkway at a pace of one brick a day is how budgets get missed.
Don't get me wrong - the construction industry is full of all sorts of shit around planning, programming etc that makes no sense to the outside eye - but it's not as simple as you or I might think. The clue is in the expertise, experience and knowledge required to do the job.
And finally, they're not doing one brick per day. Don't be daft. And you can't 'miss' a budget, so not even sure what that means.
Tl;dr - you don't know how the job is being run - and it's daft to think that you can make a valid assessment of the complexity of the programme in the fifteen seconds a day you spend musing about it viewing it through your infinitesimally small slice of said programme from the train platform 😏2 -
Agree.Leroy Ambrose said:
Have you seen the programme? Do you think that a programme manager - probably paid around 150k a year - is just going to be guessing?Croydon said:
Why start it then? I'm talking about repaving outside of the station, it's not even anything that would affect the line or the station itself.Leroy Ambrose said:
What's the point of them completing the cosmetic work and mothballing the stations if they're not yet ready to run trains through? Project Management 101. Manage your constraints appropriately. If there's a start-finish constraint, that's totally different to a start-start or finish-finish constraint. The resource budget will have been costed for the cosmetic tasks, and having more resources doing them all over a short period, or less resources doing it over a longer period, provided they aren't causing an impact on tasks that should follow on after them, is immaterial.Croydon said:I go to Whitechapel and every day and it is crazy how long it's taking them to do some cosmetic work for the crossrail station. No wonder it's late and billions over budget.
Can guarantee the firms aren't being paid a set total on job completion, they'll be charging time back. Paving the walkway at a pace of one brick a day is how budgets get missed.
Don't get me wrong - the construction industry is full of all sorts of shit around planning, programming etc that makes no sense to the outside eye - but it's not as simple as you or I might think. The clue is in the expertise, experience and knowledge required to do the job.
And finally, they're not doing one brick per day. Don't be daft. And you can't 'miss' a budget, so not even sure what that means.
Tl;dr - you don't know how the job is being run - and it's daft to think that you can make a valid assessment of the complexity of the programme in the fifteen seconds a day you spend musing about it viewing it through your infinitesimally small slice of said programme from the train platform 😏
I am sure in years to come it will however make a fascinating and very good case example of how / how not to manage a large scale project with multiple dependencies / constraints etc.
Any post mortem I suspect may conclude that workstreams / sub projects were reporting over optimistically (potentially due to management / commercial pressure to do so) as how else were we so close to a 'go live' and then suddenly a further 2 years delay? That might end up being one of the biggest lessons learned. But all guess work at this time.
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Fair enough. Seems you have much more faith in the people running this project than me. I'd question how else a project could fall this far behind, and go this much overbudget, if it wasn't being managed by someone completely inept, or crooked.Leroy Ambrose said:
Have you seen the programme? Do you think that a programme manager - probably paid around 150k a year - is just going to be guessing?Croydon said:
Why start it then? I'm talking about repaving outside of the station, it's not even anything that would affect the line or the station itself.Leroy Ambrose said:
What's the point of them completing the cosmetic work and mothballing the stations if they're not yet ready to run trains through? Project Management 101. Manage your constraints appropriately. If there's a start-finish constraint, that's totally different to a start-start or finish-finish constraint. The resource budget will have been costed for the cosmetic tasks, and having more resources doing them all over a short period, or less resources doing it over a longer period, provided they aren't causing an impact on tasks that should follow on after them, is immaterial.Croydon said:I go to Whitechapel and every day and it is crazy how long it's taking them to do some cosmetic work for the crossrail station. No wonder it's late and billions over budget.
Can guarantee the firms aren't being paid a set total on job completion, they'll be charging time back. Paving the walkway at a pace of one brick a day is how budgets get missed.
Don't get me wrong - the construction industry is full of all sorts of shit around planning, programming etc that makes no sense to the outside eye - but it's not as simple as you or I might think. The clue is in the expertise, experience and knowledge required to do the job.
And finally, they're not doing one brick per day. Don't be daft. And you can't 'miss' a budget, so not even sure what that means.
Tl;dr - you don't know how the job is being run - and it's daft to think that you can make a valid assessment of the complexity of the programme in the fifteen seconds a day you spend musing about it viewing it through your infinitesimally small slice of said programme from the train platform 😏
Genuinely on the paving though, I wish I could show you a timelapse of it!1 -
The area outside Whitechapel is pretty tricky, and it the slowness had a lot to do with moving the entrance and not disrupting the market.0
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Has any country managed MASSIVE civil engineering projects without cheap labour and no budget constraints?
https://amp.dw.com/en/berlins-new-airport-finally-opens-a-story-of-failure-and-embarrassment/a-55446329
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maybe they know right from the start these things are going to go massively overbudget? They just quote the initial figure when drawing up the plans so it's more palatable for the general public. The real figure will be several times that.ExiledinManchester said:Has any country managed MASSIVE civil engineering projects without cheap labour and no budget constraints?
https://amp.dw.com/en/berlins-new-airport-finally-opens-a-story-of-failure-and-embarrassment/a-554463292 -
Think I've posted before, my girlfriend manages steelwork constructions. The whole industry is ridiculous - every job is quoted at a ridiculous price to win the tender, and with a ridiculous programme to deliver it in three quarters of the time it's physically possible to do so for the same reason. Everyone in the industry knows it. Most companies lose money on marquee projects - and gain it back on simple ones.kentaddick said:
maybe they know right from the start these things are going to go massively overbudget? They just quote the initial figure when drawing up the plans so it's more palatable for the general public. The real figure will be several times that.ExiledinManchester said:Has any country managed MASSIVE civil engineering projects without cheap labour and no budget constraints?
https://amp.dw.com/en/berlins-new-airport-finally-opens-a-story-of-failure-and-embarrassment/a-554463292 -
Oh I don't know about that. They're probably useless right at the top - it's the poor sod in the middle who's got to try and deliver a working programme from the pie in the sky nonsense that the original idiots cobbled together who carried the can for it 😁Croydon said:
Fair enough. Seems you have much more faith in the people running this project than me. I'd question how else a project could fall this far behind, and go this much overbudget, if it wasn't being managed by someone completely inept, or crooked.Leroy Ambrose said:
Have you seen the programme? Do you think that a programme manager - probably paid around 150k a year - is just going to be guessing?Croydon said:
Why start it then? I'm talking about repaving outside of the station, it's not even anything that would affect the line or the station itself.Leroy Ambrose said:
What's the point of them completing the cosmetic work and mothballing the stations if they're not yet ready to run trains through? Project Management 101. Manage your constraints appropriately. If there's a start-finish constraint, that's totally different to a start-start or finish-finish constraint. The resource budget will have been costed for the cosmetic tasks, and having more resources doing them all over a short period, or less resources doing it over a longer period, provided they aren't causing an impact on tasks that should follow on after them, is immaterial.Croydon said:I go to Whitechapel and every day and it is crazy how long it's taking them to do some cosmetic work for the crossrail station. No wonder it's late and billions over budget.
Can guarantee the firms aren't being paid a set total on job completion, they'll be charging time back. Paving the walkway at a pace of one brick a day is how budgets get missed.
Don't get me wrong - the construction industry is full of all sorts of shit around planning, programming etc that makes no sense to the outside eye - but it's not as simple as you or I might think. The clue is in the expertise, experience and knowledge required to do the job.
And finally, they're not doing one brick per day. Don't be daft. And you can't 'miss' a budget, so not even sure what that means.
Tl;dr - you don't know how the job is being run - and it's daft to think that you can make a valid assessment of the complexity of the programme in the fifteen seconds a day you spend musing about it viewing it through your infinitesimally small slice of said programme from the train platform 😏
Genuinely on the paving though, I wish I could show you a timelapse of it!
You missed a trick - you should have started taking photos of it every day and made an Instagram post out of it 🤣2 -
I had a walk round some of my old haunts in the city recently and was pleased that Crossrail had almost finished with Finsbury Circus.
Crossrail had taken it hostage for ten years and turned one of the few green city oases into a gigantic hole in the ground.
I took this photo while having a cuppa - reminiscing a time where once a brass band could entertain the city workers during lunch time on a Summer's day. Gents would be indulging in a game of bowls, birds would be singing, pretty girls all around ... and I would be skiving as usual. Ah halcyon days.
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Watching those updates, you can see Mark Wild demeanour change from someone who looks like he's been sent to hell, to someone who looks like he's happy again0
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That airport is a national disgrace, and the average German will readily agree with that. It's not entirely clear why it has been such a fiasco.ExiledinManchester said:Has any country managed MASSIVE civil engineering projects without cheap labour and no budget constraints?
https://amp.dw.com/en/berlins-new-airport-finally-opens-a-story-of-failure-and-embarrassment/a-55446329
On the other hand, Crossrail is basically the equivalent of a Paris RER line. And as always, I feel the need to remind people Crossrail was first mooted in 1974. If you take a look at the history of the RER it's a bit difficult to compare directly; they actually started building one in 1969, but that alone shows the vision in Paris that has been sadly missing in London for years. There are now FIVE of them, and the most recent was already running in 1999. 382 miles of track, 258 stations...but Crossrail, complex, connecting with existing lines, blah, blah. But hidden in the Wiki page is an interesting insight into how the RER is funded: A local tax on business. Can't have that in London, can we, old boy, that's..that's soshulism !2 -
1. Only a small part of the construction of RER was funded by that tax (it continues in place and pays for some transport opertaional costs).PragueAddick said:
That airport is a national disgrace, and the average German will readily agree with that. It's not entirely clear why it has been such a fiasco.ExiledinManchester said:Has any country managed MASSIVE civil engineering projects without cheap labour and no budget constraints?
https://amp.dw.com/en/berlins-new-airport-finally-opens-a-story-of-failure-and-embarrassment/a-55446329
On the other hand, Crossrail is basically the equivalent of a Paris RER line. And as always, I feel the need to remind people Crossrail was first mooted in 1974. If you take a look at the history of the RER it's a bit difficult to compare directly; they actually started building one in 1969, but that alone shows the vision in Paris that has been sadly missing in London for years. There are now FIVE of them, and the most recent was already running in 1999. 382 miles of track, 258 stations...but Crossrail, complex, connecting with existing lines, blah, blah. But hidden in the Wiki page is an interesting insight into how the RER is funded: A local tax on business. Can't have that in London, can we, old boy, that's..that's soshulism !
2. 25% of Crossrail was funded directly by business. Most of that was from a specific business rate levy, with about £1bn coming from taxes on development.2 -
I'd add that since 1969, in London we've had the Jubilee Line (plus major extension), completion of the Victoria line and on a smaller scale, Docklands Light Railway and East London Line extension.0
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The bandstand is still there. The City Corporation didn't want the bowling green re-instated so just plain grass. Surrounding trees survived. There is a bowling green in Finsbury Square.Raith_C_Chattonell said:I had a walk round some of my old haunts in the city recently and was pleased that Crossrail had almost finished with Finsbury Circus.
Crossrail had taken it hostage for ten years and turned one of the few green city oases into a gigantic hole in the ground.
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He knows it's still there - he took the picture!Crusty54 said:
The bandstand is still there. The City Corporation didn't want the bowling green re-instated so just plain grass. Surrounding trees survived. There is a bowling green in Finsbury Square.Raith_C_Chattonell said:I had a walk round some of my old haunts in the city recently and was pleased that Crossrail had almost finished with Finsbury Circus.
Crossrail had taken it hostage for ten years and turned one of the few green city oases into a gigantic hole in the ground.
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Well I know no more than what I read on Wikipedia, whereas you may well feel you do, but in that case maybe you should update the Wikipedia page. 25% is better than nothing, but the Wiki entry reads as if the tax paid the lions share of the more recent lines. And more significant to my previous post, at the time the Paris RERs were financed and built, we know who was in power here, and what she and her lot thought about rail, don’t we?Jints said:
1. Only a small part of the construction of RER was funded by that tax (it continues in place and pays for some transport opertaional costs).PragueAddick said:
That airport is a national disgrace, and the average German will readily agree with that. It's not entirely clear why it has been such a fiasco.ExiledinManchester said:Has any country managed MASSIVE civil engineering projects without cheap labour and no budget constraints?
https://amp.dw.com/en/berlins-new-airport-finally-opens-a-story-of-failure-and-embarrassment/a-55446329
On the other hand, Crossrail is basically the equivalent of a Paris RER line. And as always, I feel the need to remind people Crossrail was first mooted in 1974. If you take a look at the history of the RER it's a bit difficult to compare directly; they actually started building one in 1969, but that alone shows the vision in Paris that has been sadly missing in London for years. There are now FIVE of them, and the most recent was already running in 1999. 382 miles of track, 258 stations...but Crossrail, complex, connecting with existing lines, blah, blah. But hidden in the Wiki page is an interesting insight into how the RER is funded: A local tax on business. Can't have that in London, can we, old boy, that's..that's soshulism !
2. 25% of Crossrail was funded directly by business. Most of that was from a specific business rate levy, with about £1bn coming from taxes on development.Either way, they have five of the things, running so long that they look pretty tatty, and we still don’t have one. For a long time, when my buddy worked on it, they boasted that it would be delivered “on time and on budget in 2018”. My buddy really believed it. (He fell ill though and passed away in 2019)0 -
Britain has always had cross rail passengers.
One day we'll have Crossrail passengers
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnVeE8DxTzk
