Sandgaard ownership discussion 2022-3 onwards (Meeting with CAST p138)

ElfsborgAddick said:

Crusty54 said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

We should still be grateful to Sandgaard. There was a chance we could have ceased to exist and he removed it. Also, he has invested in the club and in my view, wiser investment of the same scale and we would be in a much better place.

Behind the scenes it has been a bit chaotic as well as in front of them as 4 managers testify to. Stability seems to be a word Sandgaard doesn't understand. He has bought and owns this expensive toy and wants to play with it. The problem is, we have an emotional attachment to it and the fans, lets face it, area a big reason why people buy into a loss making business like football. Well lower league football at least. For the adulation and triumph when you get it right.

Sandgaard needs to remove his son and wife from the club and bring in experience,  people who know what they are doing.
After that we can move forward, behind the scenes anyway.

Can you provide any evidence that Martyn is not carrying out his duties correctly?

Have you any idea what Raelynn Maloney is working on? I have spoken her and she is doing some trouble shooting like identifying why season tickets to the same address are posted separately. This is down to old computer systems. Changes happening for next season. She knows and understands the internal set up pretty well.

Oh please, you are not telling me they are suitable for the job and that Sandgaard has not deliberately given them posts because of who they are.
My Branch Manager was given the post because of his dad being the owner of the company, it's an absolute mess and the poor fella does not know what day of the week it is.
Was you a supporter of Meire btw?

Evidence that they are not.

There are many successful family businesses.

Cafc43v3r said:

swordfish said:

Cafc43v3r said:

swordfish said:

superclive98 said:

CafcSCP said:

Crusty54 said:

shirty5 said:

RonnieMoore said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

If you are content, happily watch the club decline even more.

Cast your mind back 2 years that’s a club in decline a club close to closing its doors …. Where we are now is years ahead from then .. there still work to do you can’t undo 6/8 years of neglect in two years 

It would not have closed its doors. First it would have gone into administration. That’s not closing the doors 

Who would buy the club out of administration after the points deduction?

HMRC don't care about clubs. They want their pound of flesh.

Wigan did ok.

So did Palace and Southampton.

Wigan & Derby were both relegated after their points deductions, so administration does seem to have a downside even if few Club's ever become extinct as a result, historically speaking. 
 
Each case is different. We're as vulnerable as Derby having failed to rid ourselves of a former owner, only in our case one who has no love for the Club.

Still, when Thomas finally tires of fannying about here and puts us into administration, no doubt a rich white knight will save us and propel us upwards. And if not, well we'll just start up again as a phoenix Club lower down the League structure, playing who knows where. We'd get to see some new grounds too.

It couldn't happen though could it, because we're Charlton.

Why would Thomas put us in administration?  He is the only creditor and there is nothing to administer.

I don't think he will and it's a hypothetical scenario I'm using to illustrate that going into administration doesn't guarantee a successful outcome.

Reading some of the comments above, it seems a number of posters are suggesting going into administration can turn out well, but don't point out the potential downside.

The last time administration was a real option was when the spivs were out of cash, literally and metaphorically.

Would that have been a better option than them selling to Roland?  Who knows.

Exactly. Going into Administration guarantees nothing other than points deductions and transfer embargoes. There are potential upsides, but definite downsides.

boggzy said:

Cafc43v3r said:

swordfish said:

Cafc43v3r said:

swordfish said:

superclive98 said:

CafcSCP said:

Crusty54 said:

shirty5 said:

RonnieMoore said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

If you are content, happily watch the club decline even more.

Cast your mind back 2 years that’s a club in decline a club close to closing its doors …. Where we are now is years ahead from then .. there still work to do you can’t undo 6/8 years of neglect in two years 

It would not have closed its doors. First it would have gone into administration. That’s not closing the doors 

Who would buy the club out of administration after the points deduction?

HMRC don't care about clubs. They want their pound of flesh.

Wigan did ok.

So did Palace and Southampton.

Wigan & Derby were both relegated after their points deductions, so administration does seem to have a downside even if few Club's ever become extinct as a result, historically speaking. 
 
Each case is different. We're as vulnerable as Derby having failed to rid ourselves of a former owner, only in our case one who has no love for the Club.

Still, when Thomas finally tires of fannying about here and puts us into administration, no doubt a rich white knight will save us and propel us upwards. And if not, well we'll just start up again as a phoenix Club lower down the League structure, playing who knows where. We'd get to see some new grounds too.

It couldn't happen though could it, because we're Charlton.

Why would Thomas put us in administration?  He is the only creditor and there is nothing to administer.

I don't think he will and it's a hypothetical scenario I'm using to illustrate that going into administration doesn't guarantee a successful outcome.

Reading some of the comments above, it seems a number of posters are suggesting going into administration can turn out well, but don't point out the potential downside.

The last time administration was a real option was when the spivs were out of cash, literally and metaphorically.

Would that have been a better option than them selling to Roland?  Who knows.

With what has gone on with us since, absolutely no doubt about it. (If you ignore businesses which would have been knocked etc)

Well it depends who bought us out of administration doesn't it?

killerandflash said:

Administration is a high risk process (and has moral issues for the businesses you also affect). It does give any new owner though the chance to start with more of a clean slate.

Bar the ex directors loans, which we have never been close to having to repay, the spivs, Roland, ESI and Thomas have all bought, what ever they have bought, debt free.  Haven't they?

None of them have been burdened with paying back historic debt.

Crusty54 said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

Crusty54 said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

We should still be grateful to Sandgaard. There was a chance we could have ceased to exist and he removed it. Also, he has invested in the club and in my view, wiser investment of the same scale and we would be in a much better place.

Behind the scenes it has been a bit chaotic as well as in front of them as 4 managers testify to. Stability seems to be a word Sandgaard doesn't understand. He has bought and owns this expensive toy and wants to play with it. The problem is, we have an emotional attachment to it and the fans, lets face it, area a big reason why people buy into a loss making business like football. Well lower league football at least. For the adulation and triumph when you get it right.

Sandgaard needs to remove his son and wife from the club and bring in experience,  people who know what they are doing.
After that we can move forward, behind the scenes anyway.

Can you provide any evidence that Martyn is not carrying out his duties correctly?

Have you any idea what Raelynn Maloney is working on? I have spoken her and she is doing some trouble shooting like identifying why season tickets to the same address are posted separately. This is down to old computer systems. Changes happening for next season. She knows and understands the internal set up pretty well.

Oh please, you are not telling me they are suitable for the job and that Sandgaard has not deliberately given them posts because of who they are.
My Branch Manager was given the post because of his dad being the owner of the company, it's an absolute mess and the poor fella does not know what day of the week it is.
Was you a supporter of Meire btw?

Evidence that they are not.

There are many successful family businesses.

Not many in football though are there? Very different type of business. Vincent Tan and Chansiri are other examples of loons that have given jobs to their unqualified family members.

wmcf123 said:

Cafc43v3r said:

swordfish said:

SouthWest_Addicks said:

Crusty54 said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

We should still be grateful to Sandgaard. There was a chance we could have ceased to exist and he removed it. Also, he has invested in the club and in my view, wiser investment of the same scale and we would be in a much better place.

Behind the scenes it has been a bit chaotic as well as in front of them as 4 managers testify to. Stability seems to be a word Sandgaard doesn't understand. He has bought and owns this expensive toy and wants to play with it. The problem is, we have an emotional attachment to it and the fans, lets face it, area a big reason why people buy into a loss making business like football. Well lower league football at least. For the adulation and triumph when you get it right.

Sandgaard needs to remove his son and wife from the club and bring in experience,  people who know what they are doing.
After that we can move forward, behind the scenes anyway.

Can you provide any evidence that Martyn is not carrying out his duties correctly?

Have you any idea what Raelynn Maloney is working on? I have spoken her and she is doing some trouble shooting like identifying why season tickets to the same address are posted separately. This is down to old computer systems. Changes happening for next season. She knows and understands the internal set up pretty well.

RM seems to be helping out TS whenever he needs support. For example, TS was running late for the international fans meeting and RM stepped in to run the meeting until TS arrived about 15mins late. Alternative, was just to start the meeting whenever TS was available.

I think Raelynn's work experience was listed somewhere on the old Sandgaard thread. I thought digging it out was a bit OTT at the time, but when it appeared, it did seem to  me to take the heat out of the debate as to whether she had any qualities that could be of benefit to the Club for a while, but for some those doubts are still there. However, Tony Keohane's reputation indicates that he's the bigger problem, besides which, anyone thinking that Thomas is going to remove Martin and Raelynn from the Club is living in cloud cuckoo land. It's not going to happen. End of!

  

I think this is the cause of almost all of the circular arguments that go round and round, make people with both points of view angry with each other and escalate things needlessly.

It's perfectly reasonable for TS to have Martin here full time and to utilise Raelynn's skills while she is here, assuming she accompanies him.

I have come to the conclusion that Martin’s input, and ability, has been massively over egged by TS.  I just think that's the way he is.  The story is never consistent and every now and then he credits Martin with stuff thats massively over hyped.

Raelynn, as far as I know, has no official role other than being the partner of the owner.  Yet she obviously does "stuff" above and beyond that.

I don't believe people should make on the record statements every 5 minutes, like some people demand, but a bit of clarity about Raelynn and consistency and honesty about Martin would stop half the criticism/arguing in an instant.

Didn’t he say that MS suggested Garner ?  

Yes, amongst other things.

wmcf123 said:

Cafc43v3r said:

swordfish said:

SouthWest_Addicks said:

Crusty54 said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

We should still be grateful to Sandgaard. There was a chance we could have ceased to exist and he removed it. Also, he has invested in the club and in my view, wiser investment of the same scale and we would be in a much better place.

Behind the scenes it has been a bit chaotic as well as in front of them as 4 managers testify to. Stability seems to be a word Sandgaard doesn't understand. He has bought and owns this expensive toy and wants to play with it. The problem is, we have an emotional attachment to it and the fans, lets face it, area a big reason why people buy into a loss making business like football. Well lower league football at least. For the adulation and triumph when you get it right.

Sandgaard needs to remove his son and wife from the club and bring in experience,  people who know what they are doing.
After that we can move forward, behind the scenes anyway.

Can you provide any evidence that Martyn is not carrying out his duties correctly?

Have you any idea what Raelynn Maloney is working on? I have spoken her and she is doing some trouble shooting like identifying why season tickets to the same address are posted separately. This is down to old computer systems. Changes happening for next season. She knows and understands the internal set up pretty well.

RM seems to be helping out TS whenever he needs support. For example, TS was running late for the international fans meeting and RM stepped in to run the meeting until TS arrived about 15mins late. Alternative, was just to start the meeting whenever TS was available.

I think Raelynn's work experience was listed somewhere on the old Sandgaard thread. I thought digging it out was a bit OTT at the time, but when it appeared, it did seem to  me to take the heat out of the debate as to whether she had any qualities that could be of benefit to the Club for a while, but for some those doubts are still there. However, Tony Keohane's reputation indicates that he's the bigger problem, besides which, anyone thinking that Thomas is going to remove Martin and Raelynn from the Club is living in cloud cuckoo land. It's not going to happen. End of!

  

I think this is the cause of almost all of the circular arguments that go round and round, make people with both points of view angry with each other and escalate things needlessly.

It's perfectly reasonable for TS to have Martin here full time and to utilise Raelynn's skills while she is here, assuming she accompanies him.

I have come to the conclusion that Martin’s input, and ability, has been massively over egged by TS.  I just think that's the way he is.  The story is never consistent and every now and then he credits Martin with stuff thats massively over hyped.

Raelynn, as far as I know, has no official role other than being the partner of the owner.  Yet she obviously does "stuff" above and beyond that.

I don't believe people should make on the record statements every 5 minutes, like some people demand, but a bit of clarity about Raelynn and consistency and honesty about Martin would stop half the criticism/arguing in an instant.

Didn’t he say that MS suggested Garner ?  

MS also suggested that Albie Morgan needed to drive forward from midfield, so that DJ on the overlap could cross the ball into Fraser 

Cafc43v3r said:

swordfish said:

superclive98 said:

CafcSCP said:

Crusty54 said:

shirty5 said:

RonnieMoore said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

If you are content, happily watch the club decline even more.

Cast your mind back 2 years that’s a club in decline a club close to closing its doors …. Where we are now is years ahead from then .. there still work to do you can’t undo 6/8 years of neglect in two years 

It would not have closed its doors. First it would have gone into administration. That’s not closing the doors 

Who would buy the club out of administration after the points deduction?

HMRC don't care about clubs. They want their pound of flesh.

Wigan did ok.

So did Palace and Southampton.

Wigan & Derby were both relegated after their points deductions, so administration does seem to have a downside even if few Club's ever become extinct as a result, historically speaking. 
 
Each case is different. We're as vulnerable as Derby having failed to rid ourselves of a former owner, only in our case one who has no love for the Club.

Still, when Thomas finally tires of fannying about here and puts us into administration, no doubt a rich white knight will save us and propel us upwards. And if not, well we'll just start up again as a phoenix Club lower down the League structure, playing who knows where. We'd get to see some new grounds too.

It couldn't happen though could it, because we're Charlton.

Why would Thomas put us in administration?  He is the only creditor and there is nothing to administer.

The ex-director loans come into play in that scenario and they rank above TS as a creditor. So I agree, it would be madness on his part.

Rothko said:

Still owns the land and property, which is probably more important to RD whilst he believes the silly valuation 

The point about administration, which I agree would have been hazardous, is that he would have had to confront the reality of his valuation. If faced with the possibility of no tenant - and bear in mind that an incoming owner doesn't have to commit to The Valley if the team can play elsewhere as a bargaining position - he would have had to face the fact that he won't get any more than he could from that new owner up front  than by trying to go down the property development route and that the latter would take forever and a day, while he would also be likely to face a resumption of hostilities personally if Charlton were not at The Valley. 

razil said:

do the director loans apply to the freeholds? or the club? I assume its the latter..

Both.

Cafc43v3r said:

boggzy said:

Cafc43v3r said:

swordfish said:

Cafc43v3r said:

swordfish said:

superclive98 said:

CafcSCP said:

Crusty54 said:

shirty5 said:

RonnieMoore said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

If you are content, happily watch the club decline even more.

Cast your mind back 2 years that’s a club in decline a club close to closing its doors …. Where we are now is years ahead from then .. there still work to do you can’t undo 6/8 years of neglect in two years 

It would not have closed its doors. First it would have gone into administration. That’s not closing the doors 

Who would buy the club out of administration after the points deduction?

HMRC don't care about clubs. They want their pound of flesh.

Wigan did ok.

So did Palace and Southampton.

Wigan & Derby were both relegated after their points deductions, so administration does seem to have a downside even if few Club's ever become extinct as a result, historically speaking. 
 
Each case is different. We're as vulnerable as Derby having failed to rid ourselves of a former owner, only in our case one who has no love for the Club.

Still, when Thomas finally tires of fannying about here and puts us into administration, no doubt a rich white knight will save us and propel us upwards. And if not, well we'll just start up again as a phoenix Club lower down the League structure, playing who knows where. We'd get to see some new grounds too.

It couldn't happen though could it, because we're Charlton.

Why would Thomas put us in administration?  He is the only creditor and there is nothing to administer.

I don't think he will and it's a hypothetical scenario I'm using to illustrate that going into administration doesn't guarantee a successful outcome.

Reading some of the comments above, it seems a number of posters are suggesting going into administration can turn out well, but don't point out the potential downside.

The last time administration was a real option was when the spivs were out of cash, literally and metaphorically.

Would that have been a better option than them selling to Roland?  Who knows.

With what has gone on with us since, absolutely no doubt about it. (If you ignore businesses which would have been knocked etc)

Well it depends who bought us out of administration doesn't it?

Yes, of course. I'm kind of assuming it wouldn't've been a Southall/Farnell/Bassini wrongun type back then (the crooks buying clubs thing wasn't as big a thing back then), but you never know.

ElfsborgAddick said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

We should still be grateful to Sandgaard. There was a chance we could have ceased to exist and he removed it. Also, he has invested in the club and in my view, wiser investment of the same scale and we would be in a much better place.

Behind the scenes it has been a bit chaotic as well as in front of them as 4 managers testify to. Stability seems to be a word Sandgaard doesn't understand. He has bought and owns this expensive toy and wants to play with it. The problem is, we have an emotional attachment to it and the fans, lets face it, area a big reason why people buy into a loss making business like football. Well lower league football at least. For the adulation and triumph when you get it right.

Sandgaard needs to remove his son and wife from the club and bring in experience,  people who know what they are doing.
After that we can move forward, behind the scenes anyway.

I have chosen @ElfsborgAddick's post (almost) at random because this has been mentioned a lot on various threads. With words like nepotism being bandied about. It's odd though isn't it?

Many businesses are more than proud to herald that they are a family-run firm.  Ranging from local butchers through to the Issa brothers huge empire. (And where did the oft mentioned Andrew Barclay get his wealth from?)  Probably best though that I don't mention the Maxwell dynasty. My niece is HR director of a family-run and successful engineering company: there are the father and mother and three offspring in senior positions in the business.

Now, of course, the Sandgaard crew will have no experience of running an English professional football club. But then, how much of said experience did Murray and Varney have when they took over:  none. Varney was some form of admin person in Lewisham council I seem to recall!   He was far from infallible when he first started working for Charlton. Varney was not immune to making mistakes either.

In my opinion, ideally, Charlton should have an experienced CEO in place. But it hasn't and where would we get one?

At the end of the day we will succeed or fail. And far more football clubs do the latter.  To state the bleeding obvious, only three clubs get promoted from Division 3 with 21 doing nothing or worse than nothing!. So the odds are against us as they are for everyone.

The Sandgaards will succeed or fail. Until we see the outcome we will not know which it will be.  Yes, a whole series of mistakes both on the football field and off it have been made. Let us hope that better decisions are made in the future. Otherwise it will be grim for everyone.  But who can say whether anyone else employed by the club would do better or worse than the current incumbents?

cafcfan said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

We should still be grateful to Sandgaard. There was a chance we could have ceased to exist and he removed it. Also, he has invested in the club and in my view, wiser investment of the same scale and we would be in a much better place.

Behind the scenes it has been a bit chaotic as well as in front of them as 4 managers testify to. Stability seems to be a word Sandgaard doesn't understand. He has bought and owns this expensive toy and wants to play with it. The problem is, we have an emotional attachment to it and the fans, lets face it, area a big reason why people buy into a loss making business like football. Well lower league football at least. For the adulation and triumph when you get it right.

Sandgaard needs to remove his son and wife from the club and bring in experience,  people who know what they are doing.
After that we can move forward, behind the scenes anyway.

I have chosen @ElfsborgAddick's post (almost) at random because this has been mentioned a lot on various threads. With words like nepotism being bandied about. It's odd though isn't it?

Many businesses are more than proud to herald that they are a family-run firm.  Ranging from local butchers through to the Issa brothers huge empire. (And where did the oft mentioned Andrew Barclay get his wealth from?)  Probably best though that I don't mention the Maxwell dynasty. My niece is HR director of a family-run and successful engineering company: there are the father and mother and three offspring in senior positions in the business.

Now, of course, the Sandgaard crew will have no experience of running an English professional football club. But then, how much of said experience did Murray and Varney have when they took over:  none. Varney was some form of admin person in Lewisham council I seem to recall!   He was far from infallible when he first started working for Charlton. Varney was not immune to making mistakes either.

In my opinion, ideally, Charlton should have an experienced CEO in place. But it hasn't and where would we get one?

At the end of the day we will succeed or fail. And far more football clubs do the latter.  To stae the bleeding obvious, only three clubs get promoted from Division 3 with 21 doing nothing or worse than nothing!. So the odds are against us as they are for everyone.

The Sandgaards will succeed or fail. Until we see the outcome we will not know which it will be.  Yes, a whole series of mistakes both on the football field and off it have been made. Let us hope that better decisions are made in the future. Otherwise it will be grim for everyone.  But who can say whether anyone else employed by the club would do better or worse than the current incumbents?

"(And where did the oft mentioned Andrew Barclay get his wealth from?)"

The money behind Barclay was not solely from his family, although it's academic now anyway. There was a silent partner who would only have been revealed if it had happened. If Roland had got a sniff of this person's wealth he would have wanted even more. 

"Varney was some form of admin person in Lewisham council I seem to recall!   He was far from infallible when he first started working for Charlton. Varney was not immune to making mistakes either."

"Of course not, but he wasn't working for Lewisham council prior to 1997 when he joined the club. He was running a charity."

"In my opinion, ideally, Charlton should have an experienced CEO in place. But it hasn't and where would we get one?"

Well, presumably the same place we get players and managers from ... other clubs where they have had success? But in any event, not having anyone in the role is not the same as a good or bad incumbent. It's a hole in the structure.

"The Sandgaards will succeed or fail. Until we see the outcome we will not know which it will be."

People can make reasonable judgements based on their own experience and information coming out of the club. You can agree or disagree, but you can't argue it's unreasonable for people to have an opinion.

Elthamaddick said:

There was a silent partner who would only have been revealed if it had happened. If Roland had got a sniff of this person's wealth he would have wanted even more. 


just when I think I couldn't give a toss anymore, Airman goes and throws this nugget in...

Crusty54 said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

Crusty54 said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

We should still be grateful to Sandgaard. There was a chance we could have ceased to exist and he removed it. Also, he has invested in the club and in my view, wiser investment of the same scale and we would be in a much better place.

Behind the scenes it has been a bit chaotic as well as in front of them as 4 managers testify to. Stability seems to be a word Sandgaard doesn't understand. He has bought and owns this expensive toy and wants to play with it. The problem is, we have an emotional attachment to it and the fans, lets face it, area a big reason why people buy into a loss making business like football. Well lower league football at least. For the adulation and triumph when you get it right.

Sandgaard needs to remove his son and wife from the club and bring in experience,  people who know what they are doing.
After that we can move forward, behind the scenes anyway.

Can you provide any evidence that Martyn is not carrying out his duties correctly?

Have you any idea what Raelynn Maloney is working on? I have spoken her and she is doing some trouble shooting like identifying why season tickets to the same address are posted separately. This is down to old computer systems. Changes happening for next season. She knows and understands the internal set up pretty well.

Oh please, you are not telling me they are suitable for the job and that Sandgaard has not deliberately given them posts because of who they are.
My Branch Manager was given the post because of his dad being the owner of the company, it's an absolute mess and the poor fella does not know what day of the week it is.
Was you a supporter of Meire btw?

Evidence that they are not.

There are many successful family businesses.

You were a supporter of Meire?