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Savings and Investments thread
Comments
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You have £12570 personal allowance. So if £10,000 pension why are you taxed ? If your not taxed then you have £2570 interest you can earn before tax. You are also allowed £1000 tax free. So you will owe if your interest is greater than £3570.
You could voluntarily go online and complete a self assessment if you are getting more than £3570. However, whoever is paying you interest will report that to HMRC and they will come to you with a bill.I personally leave it to them and do not complete self assessment.0 -
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Not really true that though is it. I had some Cineworld shares that have been wiped out completely through Chapter 11 processgolfaddick said:
Sorry, but I cant agree with that.bobmunro said:
I have worked in the betting industry for over 42 years and my profit and loss account on my own personal betting performance is, at best, break even.PragueAddick said:
I’m glad you emphasised a phrase whose elegance had flown over my head “ the chance to speculate on the market’s sentiment toward itself”. Brilliant. And actually, speaking for myself that sums up the approach to our “forecast the FTSE 100” competition. I just try to consider what might be exercising the world’s collective mindset a few months ahead and consider how that mindset would drive market sentiment, based on years of listening to the news bulletins which usually end with the update on how the markets performed that day. I have no better grasp than that of what moves the indices, and certainly couldn’t claim to understand “market fundamentals”, and funny enough the regulars on here whom I look up to in that respect often do badly in the competition.😆Huskaris said:PragueAddick said:
This is an editorial in today's FT. There's no point in upsetting the cryptobros on their thread, but I find it really compelling.
The crypto bulls are back again. Bitcoin surged to $42,000 on Monday, its highest in nearly 20 months, marking a dramatic 150 per cent rise so far this year. After losing more than 60 per cent of its value in 2022, its climb back has sparked yet another wave of euphoric calls: industry veterans now project the token will breach $100,000 by the end of 2024, and at least $750,000 by 2026. Competitors including ethereum, dogecoin, solana and cardano are all up by double-digit percentages too.
As with any instrument, the investment case for crypto hinges on finding a convincing narrative. But unlike other assets, bitcoin has no intrinsic value, nor is it backed by anything. Some may argue that gold is not much different. Yet the glossy metal has been trusted as an effective store of wealth for millennia, and has been shown to offer some protection in down markets and times of high uncertainty — living up to its status as a hedge.
The same cannot be said for bitcoin. Its most consistent facet is its inconsistency. What the cryptocurrency ultimately offers, then, is a chance to speculate on the market’s sentiment towards itself. And here the current pro-bitcoin sales pitch from its evangelists appears to be three-fold.
First, they argue, a “risk-on” mood has returned to financial markets. In recent weeks, investors have become increasingly convinced that the US Federal Reserve has reached the end of its interest rate-raising cycle, and that cuts will happen sooner than it is signalling. With ample liquidity, and rate expectations lower, punting for something more speculative seems appealing. And rising bitcoin prices tend to generate a buying frenzy, which reinforces itself — until it inevitably pops.
The bulls are, however, also claiming that this time it is more than just hype. The second part of their pitch is that the closure of the most high-profile criminal cases that have hung over the crypto-market for the past year is akin to a cleansing moment. Last month the US successfully prosecuted Sam Bankman-Fried, former chief executive of FTX, for fraud, while Binance, the world’s largest crypto exchange, pleaded guilty to charges related to money laundering and sanctions breaches.
Third, crypto optimists expect signs of a possible US regulatory approval for spot bitcoin ETFs from BlackRock, among others, to drive a wave of crypto fund products backed by mainstream asset managers. Wider institutional adoption by serious players, they claim, gives cryptocurrency credibility.
But the buy-and-hold case is full of holes. Crypto’s brushes with the law are far from over. In the nascent industry, the authorities are still cautiously calibrating regulations and hearing legal cases. Gary Gensler, chair of the US Securities and Exchange Commission, recently said the sector was rife with “fraud, scams, bankruptcies and money laundering”.
Spot bitcoin ETF applications, if approved, may attract more investors who seek crypto exposure yet are fearful of theft and lost coins in digital wallets and exchanges. But they do not protect investors from crypto’s volatility. As it is, Grayscale’s private trusts tracking cryptocurrencies are trading at absurd multiples of their underlying value. For mainstream asset managers, ETFs are also just another way to collect fees from investors seeking crypto exposure, not necessarily a backing of the asset class itself.
What remains of the bull case, then, is the flimsy argument that there appears to be some appetite for speculation, and that bitcoin is a speculative asset. This is basically the “greater fool theory” playbook for investors: all you need to profit from an investment is to find someone silly enough to buy the asset at an even higher price. That will last, until it doesn’t. Bitcoin has collapsed before; it will surely do so again.
Something I feel you and I are in complete harmony in, a good article, thanks.
The bits in bold just have me with my head in my hands at what people are doing... I did make a comment in regards to a lot of this on their thread the other day haha.
It's only attraction is volatility, well I'm actually off to a wedding in Vegas today and I guarantee I will see people telling me they have a "system" on roulette (just double your stake each time and you end up winning the amount you first staked every time (apart from the fact that this grows exponentially until eventually on one run you WILL run out of cash)).
If something's only attraction is volatility, it's gambling, plain and simple. I don't mind that, I love a flutter and you'll find me glued to a blackjack table for the next 72 hours, but I know I'm gambling. Gambling dressed up as an "investment" I don't like. It gives it an element of legitimacy that it does not deserve.
I would love every crypto advert to have to have the whole "when the fun stops, stop" attached to it.
It always reminds me of a (probably mythical) story about Joe Kennedy in 1929 where he sold all his stocks just before the crash because "when the shoe shine boy is giving me stock tips, the market is too popular for its own good"
Crypto is just thousands of shoe shine boys chatting hot air at each other.
Crypto - betting
Shares - betting
Funds - betting
Fixed-term and rate savings accounts - betting (although very happy with 6.2% at NS&I)
DC Pensions - betting
Most if not all forms of investment - betting
I rest my case
True betting means you can lose your stake. Horses, football, you name it.
Investing means you could lose it all but in reality you dont. Very very few investments lead you to losing your entire stake. Certainly regulated UK investments dont. Worse case scenario is that you might lose 40%-60% if you invest badly or the markets go tits up.0 -
Same.kafka said:
Not really true that though is it. I had some Cineworld shares that have been wiped out completely through Chapter 11 processgolfaddick said:
Sorry, but I cant agree with that.bobmunro said:
I have worked in the betting industry for over 42 years and my profit and loss account on my own personal betting performance is, at best, break even.PragueAddick said:
I’m glad you emphasised a phrase whose elegance had flown over my head “ the chance to speculate on the market’s sentiment toward itself”. Brilliant. And actually, speaking for myself that sums up the approach to our “forecast the FTSE 100” competition. I just try to consider what might be exercising the world’s collective mindset a few months ahead and consider how that mindset would drive market sentiment, based on years of listening to the news bulletins which usually end with the update on how the markets performed that day. I have no better grasp than that of what moves the indices, and certainly couldn’t claim to understand “market fundamentals”, and funny enough the regulars on here whom I look up to in that respect often do badly in the competition.😆Huskaris said:PragueAddick said:
This is an editorial in today's FT. There's no point in upsetting the cryptobros on their thread, but I find it really compelling.
The crypto bulls are back again. Bitcoin surged to $42,000 on Monday, its highest in nearly 20 months, marking a dramatic 150 per cent rise so far this year. After losing more than 60 per cent of its value in 2022, its climb back has sparked yet another wave of euphoric calls: industry veterans now project the token will breach $100,000 by the end of 2024, and at least $750,000 by 2026. Competitors including ethereum, dogecoin, solana and cardano are all up by double-digit percentages too.
As with any instrument, the investment case for crypto hinges on finding a convincing narrative. But unlike other assets, bitcoin has no intrinsic value, nor is it backed by anything. Some may argue that gold is not much different. Yet the glossy metal has been trusted as an effective store of wealth for millennia, and has been shown to offer some protection in down markets and times of high uncertainty — living up to its status as a hedge.
The same cannot be said for bitcoin. Its most consistent facet is its inconsistency. What the cryptocurrency ultimately offers, then, is a chance to speculate on the market’s sentiment towards itself. And here the current pro-bitcoin sales pitch from its evangelists appears to be three-fold.
First, they argue, a “risk-on” mood has returned to financial markets. In recent weeks, investors have become increasingly convinced that the US Federal Reserve has reached the end of its interest rate-raising cycle, and that cuts will happen sooner than it is signalling. With ample liquidity, and rate expectations lower, punting for something more speculative seems appealing. And rising bitcoin prices tend to generate a buying frenzy, which reinforces itself — until it inevitably pops.
The bulls are, however, also claiming that this time it is more than just hype. The second part of their pitch is that the closure of the most high-profile criminal cases that have hung over the crypto-market for the past year is akin to a cleansing moment. Last month the US successfully prosecuted Sam Bankman-Fried, former chief executive of FTX, for fraud, while Binance, the world’s largest crypto exchange, pleaded guilty to charges related to money laundering and sanctions breaches.
Third, crypto optimists expect signs of a possible US regulatory approval for spot bitcoin ETFs from BlackRock, among others, to drive a wave of crypto fund products backed by mainstream asset managers. Wider institutional adoption by serious players, they claim, gives cryptocurrency credibility.
But the buy-and-hold case is full of holes. Crypto’s brushes with the law are far from over. In the nascent industry, the authorities are still cautiously calibrating regulations and hearing legal cases. Gary Gensler, chair of the US Securities and Exchange Commission, recently said the sector was rife with “fraud, scams, bankruptcies and money laundering”.
Spot bitcoin ETF applications, if approved, may attract more investors who seek crypto exposure yet are fearful of theft and lost coins in digital wallets and exchanges. But they do not protect investors from crypto’s volatility. As it is, Grayscale’s private trusts tracking cryptocurrencies are trading at absurd multiples of their underlying value. For mainstream asset managers, ETFs are also just another way to collect fees from investors seeking crypto exposure, not necessarily a backing of the asset class itself.
What remains of the bull case, then, is the flimsy argument that there appears to be some appetite for speculation, and that bitcoin is a speculative asset. This is basically the “greater fool theory” playbook for investors: all you need to profit from an investment is to find someone silly enough to buy the asset at an even higher price. That will last, until it doesn’t. Bitcoin has collapsed before; it will surely do so again.
Something I feel you and I are in complete harmony in, a good article, thanks.
The bits in bold just have me with my head in my hands at what people are doing... I did make a comment in regards to a lot of this on their thread the other day haha.
It's only attraction is volatility, well I'm actually off to a wedding in Vegas today and I guarantee I will see people telling me they have a "system" on roulette (just double your stake each time and you end up winning the amount you first staked every time (apart from the fact that this grows exponentially until eventually on one run you WILL run out of cash)).
If something's only attraction is volatility, it's gambling, plain and simple. I don't mind that, I love a flutter and you'll find me glued to a blackjack table for the next 72 hours, but I know I'm gambling. Gambling dressed up as an "investment" I don't like. It gives it an element of legitimacy that it does not deserve.
I would love every crypto advert to have to have the whole "when the fun stops, stop" attached to it.
It always reminds me of a (probably mythical) story about Joe Kennedy in 1929 where he sold all his stocks just before the crash because "when the shoe shine boy is giving me stock tips, the market is too popular for its own good"
Crypto is just thousands of shoe shine boys chatting hot air at each other.
Crypto - betting
Shares - betting
Funds - betting
Fixed-term and rate savings accounts - betting (although very happy with 6.2% at NS&I)
DC Pensions - betting
Most if not all forms of investment - betting
I rest my case
True betting means you can lose your stake. Horses, football, you name it.
Investing means you could lose it all but in reality you dont. Very very few investments lead you to losing your entire stake. Certainly regulated UK investments dont. Worse case scenario is that you might lose 40%-60% if you invest badly or the markets go tits up.0 -
Plenty of companies on AIM get wiped out - regulation is minimal.
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Depends how much interest you are earning. I’m assuming your two pensions are taxed due to state pension (as £10k won’t breach the personal allowance).Arsenetatters said:I’ve got 2 pensions that are taxed at source and come to roughly £10,000 per year. With the interest rates being good my savings are providing extra income. Does this mean I’ve got to fill out a tax return?Can you not put in an ISA?
either way, if you do need to pay tax on savings just let HMRC know and they’ll adjust your tax code, unlikely to need to do a return.2 -
Exactly. As plenty of us Charlton shareholders discovered .hoof_it_up_to_benty said:Plenty of companies on AIM get wiped out - regulation is minimal.
Anyway, why would you buy Cineworld in the first place?0 -
Not a state pension (too young at mo). Maybe my pensions aren’t taxed (?)Rob7Lee said:
Depends how much interest you are earning. I’m assuming your two pensions are taxed due to state pension (as £10k won’t breach the personal allowance).Arsenetatters said:I’ve got 2 pensions that are taxed at source and come to roughly £10,000 per year. With the interest rates being good my savings are providing extra income. Does this mean I’ve got to fill out a tax return?Can you not put in an ISA?
either way, if you do need to pay tax on savings just let HMRC know and they’ll adjust your tax code, unlikely to need to do a return.
so the HMRC will know what savings I have and interest I get?0 -
It was a “recovery share” post Covid that many took a punt on. I lost a fraction of what I made on it, just thought it might go higher and chucked a bit of profit back in. Live and learn and all that.PragueAddick said:
Exactly. As plenty of us Charlton shareholders discovered .hoof_it_up_to_benty said:Plenty of companies on AIM get wiped out - regulation is minimal.
Anyway, why would you buy Cineworld in the first place?0 - Sponsored links:
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Yes. HMRC will then change your tax code and recover any tax owed as a result the interest you’ve received (not in one lump if a large amount).Arsenetatters said:
Not a state pension (too young at mo). Maybe my pensions aren’t taxed (?)Rob7Lee said:
Depends how much interest you are earning. I’m assuming your two pensions are taxed due to state pension (as £10k won’t breach the personal allowance).Arsenetatters said:I’ve got 2 pensions that are taxed at source and come to roughly £10,000 per year. With the interest rates being good my savings are providing extra income. Does this mean I’ve got to fill out a tax return?Can you not put in an ISA?
either way, if you do need to pay tax on savings just let HMRC know and they’ll adjust your tax code, unlikely to need to do a return.
so the HMRC will know what savings I have and interest I get?1 -
if your pensions are circa £10k then on that alone you shouldn't be being taxed on them.Arsenetatters said:
Not a state pension (too young at mo). Maybe my pensions aren’t taxed (?)Rob7Lee said:
Depends how much interest you are earning. I’m assuming your two pensions are taxed due to state pension (as £10k won’t breach the personal allowance).Arsenetatters said:I’ve got 2 pensions that are taxed at source and come to roughly £10,000 per year. With the interest rates being good my savings are providing extra income. Does this mean I’ve got to fill out a tax return?Can you not put in an ISA?
either way, if you do need to pay tax on savings just let HMRC know and they’ll adjust your tax code, unlikely to need to do a return.
so the HMRC will know what savings I have and interest I get?
HMRC can find out I believe, but they will unlikely know unless you tell them.
That said, if £10k is your sole other income outside of interest then you have about 7k left.
https://www.gov.uk/apply-tax-free-interest-on-savings
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I'm sure interest payers are required to report annually to HMRC how much interest they have paid and to whom, so they will know. I used to work for a holiday parks company (not the shit Camber Sands one but its much classier rival) and we were required to report amounts paid to van owners through the holiday let system to HMRC so they could chase up for any tax due.Rob7Lee said:
if your pensions are circa £10k then on that alone you shouldn't be being taxed on them.Arsenetatters said:
Not a state pension (too young at mo). Maybe my pensions aren’t taxed (?)Rob7Lee said:
Depends how much interest you are earning. I’m assuming your two pensions are taxed due to state pension (as £10k won’t breach the personal allowance).Arsenetatters said:I’ve got 2 pensions that are taxed at source and come to roughly £10,000 per year. With the interest rates being good my savings are providing extra income. Does this mean I’ve got to fill out a tax return?Can you not put in an ISA?
either way, if you do need to pay tax on savings just let HMRC know and they’ll adjust your tax code, unlikely to need to do a return.
so the HMRC will know what savings I have and interest I get?
HMRC can find out I believe, but they will unlikely know unless you tell them.
That said, if £10k is your sole other income outside of interest then you have about 7k left.
https://www.gov.uk/apply-tax-free-interest-on-savings
Best come clean to sleep easier and avoid nasty surprises down the line, I always think.2 -
Banks have reported credit interest paid to customers to HMRC since the early 1990’s4
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OK since the FTSE 100 has hardly moved in the last 48 hours, can we just call it now, please? 😉3
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NooooooPragueAddick said:OK since the FTSE 100 has hardly moved in the last 48 hours, can we just call it now, please? 😉2 -
nah, it needs about another 50 point risePragueAddick said:OK since the FTSE 100 has hardly moved in the last 48 hours, can we just call it now, please? 😉 0 -
Make that 250!golfaddick said:
nah, it needs about another 50 point risePragueAddick said:OK since the FTSE 100 has hardly moved in the last 48 hours, can we just call it now, please? 😉
As an aside, I really don't know what's going on, but my pensions up another £7k this week 0 -
I know.....good isn't it 😃.Rob7Lee said:
Make that 250!golfaddick said:
nah, it needs about another 50 point risePragueAddick said:OK since the FTSE 100 has hardly moved in the last 48 hours, can we just call it now, please? 😉
As an aside, I really don't know what's going on, but my pensions up another £7k this week
I think markets feel the "landing" is going to be a soft one. Recession fears are easing & company profits warnings not as severe as once thought. .Interest rates aren't going any higher & although wont be coming down anytime soon they will be lower in 2025 than commentators thought they would be.
Inflation also falling & Bond prices rising as coupons lower.
Oh......and Farage didnt win the Jungle thingy 😄.2 -
Of course, the Farage effect - long may it continue!golfaddick said:
I know.....good isn't it 😃.Rob7Lee said:
Make that 250!golfaddick said:
nah, it needs about another 50 point risePragueAddick said:OK since the FTSE 100 has hardly moved in the last 48 hours, can we just call it now, please? 😉
As an aside, I really don't know what's going on, but my pensions up another £7k this week
I think markets feel the "landing" is going to be a soft one. Recession fears are easing & company profits warnings not as severe as once thought. .Interest rates aren't going any higher & although wont be coming down anytime soon they will be lower in 2025 than commentators thought they would be.
Inflation also falling & Bond prices rising as coupons lower.
Oh......and Farage didnt win the Jungle thingy 😄.0 - Sponsored links:
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Better not look at today’s sudden jump. Need yet another big rise for me to be anywhere near mind you.PragueAddick said:OK since the FTSE 100 has hardly moved in the last 48 hours, can we just call it now, please? 😉1 -
CharltonKerry said:
Better not look at today’s sudden jump. Need yet another big rise for me to be anywhere near mind you.PragueAddick said:OK since the FTSE 100 has hardly moved in the last 48 hours, can we just call it now, please? 😉
Another 100 please - then stop the contest.
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Drop in inflation, keep the rise coming....... as at a few mins ago:
FTSE100 Level 7,743.22 Name Level Variance % Variance blackpool72 7750 6.78 0.09% Jamescafc 7750 6.78 0.09% Lonelynorthernaddick 7725 18.22 0.24% RalphMilne 7721 22.22 0.29% Bangkokaddick 7771 27.78 0.36% TheGhostofTomHovi 7708 35.22 0.45% Addickinedi 7707 36.22 0.47% Covered End 7702 41.22 0.53% cafcpolo 7698 45.22 0.58% thecat 7792 48.78 0.63% golfaddick 7680 63.22 0.82% StrikerFirmani 7665 78.22 1.01% oohaahmortimer 7654 89.22 1.15% Addick Addict 7652 91.22 1.18% bobmunro 7848 104.78 1.35% HardyAddick 7625 118.22 1.53% Morboe 7625 118.22 1.53% CharltonKerry 7868 124.78 1.61% guinnessaddick 7878 134.78 1.74% PragueAddick 7600 143.22 1.85% LargeAddick 7887 143.78 1.86% Rob7Lee 7891 147.78 1.91% fat man on a moped 7592 151.22 1.95% holyjo 7899 155.78 2.01% meldrew66 7575 168.22 2.17% valleynick66 7923 179.78 2.32% Redman 7562 181.22 2.34% Fortune 82nd Minute 7554 189.22 2.44% IdleHans 7945 201.78 2.61% CAFCWest 7950 206.78 2.67% aitchyaddick 7978 234.78 3.03% Solidgone 7990 246.78 3.19% Jon_CAFC_ 7490 253.22 3.27% wwaddick 8002 258.78 3.34% Pedro45 7452 291.22 3.76% WishIdStayedInThe Pub 8047 303.78 3.92% Lenglover 7401 342.22 4.42% Er_Be_Ab_Pl_Wo_Wo_Ch 6750 993.22 12.83% 0 -
Top of the league.
Have that.3 -
Joint ;-)blackpool72 said:Top of the league.
Have that.0 -
Back down to 7684 now, so I reckon golfie is doing a golfie
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But isn't he the reigning champion? If there's a tie I reckon he should get to keep the virtual trophy, like in the Ashes.bobmunro said:
Joint ;-)blackpool72 said:Top of the league.
Have that.1 -
Tie-break - who got their prediction in first.PragueAddick said:
But isn't he the reigning champion? If there's a tie I reckon he should get to keep the virtual trophy, like in the Ashes.bobmunro said:
Joint ;-)blackpool72 said:Top of the league.
Have that.
I'm taking this far too seriously!3 -
I won it the time before last.PragueAddick said:
But isn't he the reigning champion? If there's a tie I reckon he should get to keep the virtual trophy, like in the Ashes.bobmunro said:
Joint ;-)blackpool72 said:Top of the league.
Have that.
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I was 1stbobmunro said:
Tie-break - who got their prediction in first.PragueAddick said:
But isn't he the reigning champion? If there's a tie I reckon he should get to keep the virtual trophy, like in the Ashes.bobmunro said:
Joint ;-)blackpool72 said:Top of the league.
Have that.
I'm taking this far too seriously!0
