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Post Office Horizon scandal
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Barrister for sub postmasters told Angela Van der Bogerd that she was either incompetent or a liar. I think it highly likely she'll end up in jail for perjury.
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The evidence is building up that most, if not all of the senior management, knew what was going on to some degree. There was a smirk on the judge's face this afternoon after he cornered Van der Bogerd. (Maybe I should rephrase that?).1
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It's starting to resemble a 'no comment' police interview.
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I can't believe that so many CEO's/Upper management seem to have missed so many important emails. As you say, either incompetent or a liar. Can't believe it was incompetence because they wouldn't have held the post that long if important emails were regularly not being read or replied to.ME14addick said:Barrister for sub postmasters told Angela Van der Bogerd that she was either incompetent or a liar. I think it highly likely she'll end up in jail for perjury.
If they were incompetent then the Government should be asking for part of the salaries to be paid back as they were obviously out of their depth & receiving money under deception.
Or just lock 'em all up. Paula Vennells hearing will be just more of the same I bet !3 -
They all say "it wasn't me', I'd love to see them all in a room together.
Angela VDB strikes me as the kind of person who wouldn't care who she hurt as she climbed the ladder. I was glad to see her squirming at times today, the barristers didn't hold back in calling her a liar.2 -
Agreed. Hopefully she won't sleep too well tonight or for the next few years as she waits to hear whether she will be prosecuted.ME14addick said:They all say "it wasn't me', I'd love to see them all in a room together.
Angela VDB strikes me as the kind of person who wouldn't care who she hurt as she climbed the ladder. I was glad to see her squirming at times today, the barristers didn't hold back in calling her a liar.1 -
They all do it though, watch any inquiry or released police interview tapes with senior people who get caught and they try this bullshit even when presented with cold hard indisputable facts and truths. And none of them care, not one, about who they destroy and shit on to get another step up the ladderME14addick said:They all say "it wasn't me', I'd love to see them all in a room together.
Angela VDB strikes me as the kind of person who wouldn't care who she hurt as she climbed the ladder. I was glad to see her squirming at times today, the barristers didn't hold back in calling her a liar.
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You just know that none of these scumbags will be charged with anythingFortune 82nd Minute said:
Agreed. Hopefully she won't sleep too well tonight or for the next few years as she waits to hear whether she will be prosecuted.ME14addick said:They all say "it wasn't me', I'd love to see them all in a room together.
Angela VDB strikes me as the kind of person who wouldn't care who she hurt as she climbed the ladder. I was glad to see her squirming at times today, the barristers didn't hold back in calling her a liar.2 -
Normally I'd agree with you on this point. But I've just got a feeling here that this is so bad that there will be pressure to prosecute those who on the face of it have lied.DaveMehmet said:
You just know that none of these scumbags will be charged with anythingFortune 82nd Minute said:
Agreed. Hopefully she won't sleep too well tonight or for the next few years as she waits to hear whether she will be prosecuted.ME14addick said:They all say "it wasn't me', I'd love to see them all in a room together.
Angela VDB strikes me as the kind of person who wouldn't care who she hurt as she climbed the ladder. I was glad to see her squirming at times today, the barristers didn't hold back in calling her a liar.
Whether they will be found guilty after they hire very clever KCs to defend themselves is another matter.1 -
Ironic isn’t it that the senior executives are paid many multiples of the average worker and even their immediate subordinates who ‘do the real work’ on the basis they are accountable and ultimately carry the can for a business (and hence the justification for the pay level) but rarely if ever seem to come unstuck in any meaningful way.Carter said:
They all do it though, watch any inquiry or released police interview tapes with senior people who get caught and they try this bullshit even when presented with cold hard indisputable facts and truths. And none of them care, not one, about who they destroy and shit on to get another step up the ladderME14addick said:They all say "it wasn't me', I'd love to see them all in a room together.
Angela VDB strikes me as the kind of person who wouldn't care who she hurt as she climbed the ladder. I was glad to see her squirming at times today, the barristers didn't hold back in calling her a liar.6 - Sponsored links:
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Can't wait for the court cases in a couple of years where these senior execs are going to be pleading incompetence to save themselves from jail.
The levels of psychopathy at the top of organisations like this is terrifying, through things like what Carter said above about not giving a shit on who you have to step on to get somewhere.
This goes wider for me though, the post office scandal is just a symptom, we have vastly overpaid "strategic thinkers" in board rooms all over the west who are paid far, far higher multiples of salaries than those on "the shop floor" than was the case 20, 30, 40 years ago. These are the people who are raking it in while normal people get at best inflationary pay rises. Modern day trickle down economics is that we get to consume the technological advances of the last 20-30 years, but the financial rewards for them go to a very small proportion of the population. These same people when the going gets tough just get redeployed to another high paid job somewhere else and it's the less well off left carrying the can.
How much money is enough? Just a little bit more...13 -
Never any accountability except at the lower/mid levels … seen it so many timesHuskaris said:Can't wait for the court cases in a couple of years where these senior execs are going to be pleading incompetence to save themselves from jail.
The levels of psychopathy at the top of organisations like this is terrifying, through things like what Carter said above about not giving a shit on who you have to step on to get somewhere.
This goes wider for me though, the post office scandal is just a symptom, we have vastly overpaid "strategic thinkers" in board rooms all over the west who are paid far, far higher multiples of salaries than those on "the shop floor" than was the case 20, 30, 40 years ago. These are the people who are raking it in while normal people get at best inflationary pay rises. Modern day trickle down economics is that we get to consume the technological advances of the last 20-30 years, but the financial rewards for them go to a very small proportion of the population. These same people when the going gets tough just get redeployed to another high paid job somewhere else and it's the less well off left carrying the can.
How much money is enough? Just a little bit more...4 -
AVDB struck me as a junior manager who had been promoted way beyond her capability. Not unusual I know but that combined with her Sociopathic character makes it easier to see why the issue was not dealt with correctly.2
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So one of the attributes to rise to a high level in the post office is to be forgetful.These people have no shame.1
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I fear you are likely to be right. We don't have a great record in this country of holding people legally accountable where it highlights institutional greed and malpractice. There's just no appetite or political will for throwing the required resources at a long term, difficult, expensive prosecution.DaveMehmet said:
You just know that none of these scumbags will be charged with anythingFortune 82nd Minute said:
Agreed. Hopefully she won't sleep too well tonight or for the next few years as she waits to hear whether she will be prosecuted.ME14addick said:They all say "it wasn't me', I'd love to see them all in a room together.
Angela VDB strikes me as the kind of person who wouldn't care who she hurt as she climbed the ladder. I was glad to see her squirming at times today, the barristers didn't hold back in calling her a liar.
Not a single UK banker went to prison for their role in the financial crisis that we're still paying for. Despite their obvious fraud. No one has been held to account for the cladding at Grenfell. We're already years past the dodgy PPE dealings with, as far as I can see, no charges against those who made £m's off the back of their contacts and put lives at risk.
I hope I'm wrong but not holding my breath.9 -
stonemuse said:
Never any accountability except at the lower/mid levels … seen it so many timesHuskaris said:Can't wait for the court cases in a couple of years where these senior execs are going to be pleading incompetence to save themselves from jail.
The levels of psychopathy at the top of organisations like this is terrifying, through things like what Carter said above about not giving a shit on who you have to step on to get somewhere.
This goes wider for me though, the post office scandal is just a symptom, we have vastly overpaid "strategic thinkers" in board rooms all over the west who are paid far, far higher multiples of salaries than those on "the shop floor" than was the case 20, 30, 40 years ago. These are the people who are raking it in while normal people get at best inflationary pay rises. Modern day trickle down economics is that we get to consume the technological advances of the last 20-30 years, but the financial rewards for them go to a very small proportion of the population. These same people when the going gets tough just get redeployed to another high paid job somewhere else and it's the less well off left carrying the can.
How much money is enough? Just a little bit more...
And no one in those lower/mid levels wants to be Caesar's Messenger for fear that will reflect on their own performance. So it gets buried.2 -
My Dad used to say 'it's not what you know, but who you know', that certainly seems to be the norm in business.
I do think that the likes of Angela van den Bogerd and Paula Vennells will be brought to book, the evidence of wrong doing is just too compelling to ignore and a lot of people are determined to see justice. There are many more big players still to give evidence to the Inquiry.
There are people working hard to make sure that those who profited from the Covid ppe scandal are brought to justice and with a probable change of Government that looks far more likely.0 -
charente addick said:AVDB struck me as a junior manager who had been promoted way beyond her capability. Not unusual I know but that combined with her Sociopathic character makes it easier to see why the issue was not dealt with correctly.
I was suprised at the number of positions she had within the Post Office it would seem she never lasted very long in any of them, or the positions was re-titled so as to give her a payrise. Her CV was read out at the very begining of her evidence.
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ME14addick said:My Dad used to say 'it's not what you know, but who you know', that certainly seems to be the norm in business.
I do think that the likes of Angela van den Bogerd and Paula Vennells will be brought to book, the evidence of wrong doing is just too compelling to ignore and a lot of people are determined to see justice. There are many more big players still to give evidence to the Inquiry.
There are people working hard to make sure that those who profited from the Covid ppe scandal are brought to justice and with a probable change of Government that looks far more likely.
I totally agree. If their moral compass is heading in the same direction when they are brought to book then I think the best bet for any successful prosecution is that they will bring the others down with them. I feel any prosecution through the courts will be a minefield. 'Oh, we won't get a fair trial' will be the first cry and months of legal argument hoping any momentum will wear off.
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I’ve just quoted this part because it strikes me that, when there’s a big public outcry and there are demands for repercussions, a sacrificial lamb is often offered.ME14addick said:My Dad used to say 'it's not what you know, but who you know', that certainly seems to be the norm in business.
I do think that the likes of Angela van den Bogerd and Paula Vennells will be brought to book…Usually it’s some nobody who takes the blame, gets ‘punished’ and the story goes away. Sometimes though, when the outcry is big enough, a more significant lamb is offered. That’s what I suspect might happen here.
Vennells and VDB were very much shown as the villains in the itv show (probably justifiably, but I doubt it’s the whole picture), so these two being sacrificed would potentially satisfy many.But I’d rather see the punishments given to more of the villains and particularly to go further up. The previous heads at the PO, the Fujitsu top brass and the politicians who buried the story or ignored it are as culpable, but I think they’re all hoping Vennells and VDB will take the fall for them and they’ll get away with it.
No party politics from me here, by the way. I think this goes across party lines.1 - Sponsored links:
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AvdB was appointed Head of People at Football Association of Wales in 2020, despite having been criticised by a judge for having "obfuscated" and "misled" the court, after giving evidence at court hearings between the Post Office and former sub-postmasters wrongly suspected of stealing money. She left the FAW in 2021 due to controversy and backlash.man_at_milletts said:ME14addick said:My Dad used to say 'it's not what you know, but who you know', that certainly seems to be the norm in business.
I do think that the likes of Angela van den Bogerd and Paula Vennells will be brought to book, the evidence of wrong doing is just too compelling to ignore and a lot of people are determined to see justice. There are many more big players still to give evidence to the Inquiry.
There are people working hard to make sure that those who profited from the Covid ppe scandal are brought to justice and with a probable change of Government that looks far more likely.
I totally agree. If their moral compass is heading in the same direction when they are brought to book then I think the best bet for any successful prosecution is that they will bring the others down with them. I feel any prosecution through the courts will be a minefield. 'Oh, we won't get a fair trial' will be the first cry and months of legal argument hoping any momentum will wear off.
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I think that there will be far more prosecutions than just those two. The public outcry will continue and I'm sure that people like Jo Williams and Alan Bates, with the help of the media that did report of the potential mis-carriage of justice from the earliest days, will demand that all those who played a part in the scandal face justice.lordromford said:
I’ve just quoted this part because it strikes me that, when there’s a big public outcry and there are demands for repercussions, a sacrificial lamb is often offered.ME14addick said:My Dad used to say 'it's not what you know, but who you know', that certainly seems to be the norm in business.
I do think that the likes of Angela van den Bogerd and Paula Vennells will be brought to book…Usually it’s some nobody who takes the blame, gets ‘punished’ and the story goes away. Sometimes though, when the outcry is big enough, a more significant lamb is offered. That’s what I suspect might happen here.
Vennells and VDB were very much shown as the villains in the itv show (probably justifiably, but I doubt it’s the whole picture), so these two being sacrificed would potentially satisfy many.But I’d rather see the punishments given to more of the villains and particularly to go further up. The previous heads at the PO, the Fujitsu top brass and the politicians who buried the story or ignored it are as culpable, but I think they’re all hoping Vennells and VDB will take the fall for them and they’ll get away with it.
No party politics from me here, by the way. I think this goes across party lines.
I agree that this does cross party lines and hopefully support for full justice will continue from all political parties. There are however many other scandals and cover-ups involving politicians which must also be scrutinised and not forgotten.0 -
I hope you’re right. I can’t help but be cynical though.ME14addick said:
I think that there will be far more prosecutions than just those two. The public outcry will continue and I'm sure that people like Jo Williams and Alan Bates, with the help of the media that did report of the potential mis-carriage of justice from the earliest days, will demand that all those who played a part in the scandal face justice.lordromford said:
I’ve just quoted this part because it strikes me that, when there’s a big public outcry and there are demands for repercussions, a sacrificial lamb is often offered.ME14addick said:My Dad used to say 'it's not what you know, but who you know', that certainly seems to be the norm in business.
I do think that the likes of Angela van den Bogerd and Paula Vennells will be brought to book…Usually it’s some nobody who takes the blame, gets ‘punished’ and the story goes away. Sometimes though, when the outcry is big enough, a more significant lamb is offered. That’s what I suspect might happen here.
Vennells and VDB were very much shown as the villains in the itv show (probably justifiably, but I doubt it’s the whole picture), so these two being sacrificed would potentially satisfy many.But I’d rather see the punishments given to more of the villains and particularly to go further up. The previous heads at the PO, the Fujitsu top brass and the politicians who buried the story or ignored it are as culpable, but I think they’re all hoping Vennells and VDB will take the fall for them and they’ll get away with it.
No party politics from me here, by the way. I think this goes across party lines.
I agree that this does cross party lines and hopefully support for full justice will continue from all political parties. There are however many other scandals and cover-ups involving politicians which must also be scrutinised and not forgotten.1 -
It can be assumed that the PO actors are all being advised by solicitors that the only grounds for escaping successful prosecution is to plead amnesia and incompetence as the truth will be admission of guilt and certain jail sentences.lordromford said:
I hope you’re right. I can’t help but be cynical though.ME14addick said:
I think that there will be far more prosecutions than just those two. The public outcry will continue and I'm sure that people like Jo Williams and Alan Bates, with the help of the media that did report of the potential mis-carriage of justice from the earliest days, will demand that all those who played a part in the scandal face justice.lordromford said:
I’ve just quoted this part because it strikes me that, when there’s a big public outcry and there are demands for repercussions, a sacrificial lamb is often offered.ME14addick said:My Dad used to say 'it's not what you know, but who you know', that certainly seems to be the norm in business.
I do think that the likes of Angela van den Bogerd and Paula Vennells will be brought to book…Usually it’s some nobody who takes the blame, gets ‘punished’ and the story goes away. Sometimes though, when the outcry is big enough, a more significant lamb is offered. That’s what I suspect might happen here.
Vennells and VDB were very much shown as the villains in the itv show (probably justifiably, but I doubt it’s the whole picture), so these two being sacrificed would potentially satisfy many.But I’d rather see the punishments given to more of the villains and particularly to go further up. The previous heads at the PO, the Fujitsu top brass and the politicians who buried the story or ignored it are as culpable, but I think they’re all hoping Vennells and VDB will take the fall for them and they’ll get away with it.
No party politics from me here, by the way. I think this goes across party lines.
I agree that this does cross party lines and hopefully support for full justice will continue from all political parties. There are however many other scandals and cover-ups involving politicians which must also be scrutinised and not forgotten.
i am hoping beyond hope that the lawyers soon to give evidence will cough and provide the evidence that condemns the PO executives. These lawyers are already destroyed professionally, they cannot deny their involvement in prosecutions and may be facing inevitable prosecution themselves for perverting justice. They may have more to gain when justice is meted out by showing contrition and naming names now in the Inquiry than protecting the PO executives.4 -
A senior Fujitsu engineer made a false statement to court about the flawed Post Office IT system, contradicting a report he had written days earlier.
The BBC has obtained Gareth Jenkins' 2010 statement, which helped wrongly jail pregnant postmistress Seema Misra.
It said there were "no cases" where branch accounts could be altered without postmasters' knowledge.
But he had just produced a Post Office report which proposed remotely altering data in branches to fix a bug.
Mr Jenkins, Fujitsu's former chief IT architect, is currently being investigated by the Metropolitan Police for potential perjury, the BBC understands.
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I watched quite a lot of the inquiry from yesterday.
Those under questioning were not aware of or couldn’t remember bits that were damning or controversial but remember exchanges and conversations that helped them.
Watching poor damaged Seema Misha sitting next to her lawyer who was fighting with vicious precision against the bloke yesterday, was like looking at her being abused all over again.
If I could I would strip all those who contributed to the damage done to sub postmasters and postmistresses, have them stripped of every asset they possess. Let them all start again with nothing and no rights to benefits either.5 -
I think they need more than that. A stretch in prison themselves is what they deserve , then being stripped of all possessions to start again1
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I think / suspect this will come down to precise (weasley) words and interpretation.clive said:A senior Fujitsu engineer made a false statement to court about the flawed Post Office IT system, contradicting a report he had written days earlier.
The BBC has obtained Gareth Jenkins' 2010 statement, which helped wrongly jail pregnant postmistress Seema Misra.
It said there were "no cases" where branch accounts could be altered without postmasters' knowledge.
But he had just produced a Post Office report which proposed remotely altering data in branches to fix a bug.
Mr Jenkins, Fujitsu's former chief IT architect, is currently being investigated by the Metropolitan Police for potential perjury, the BBC understands.
Any IT system has a ‘back door’ so it’s always possible to change things. The issue i assume is whether changes were ever made in an unaudited / untracked way.That quote just might mean we haven’t yet but could start doing do if they are looking to wriggle out if it.0 -
We have to pay for their time in prison!
They (the machine of Post Office oppression) should be chain ganged in any walk-in sewer tunnel available, and be forced to clean the walls with bare hands and flimsy napkins for all I care.
They all start out by saying sorry, but seriously during questioning in front of their victims all I see is evasion and contempt.0 -
Very inventive Seth. Were you ever in the army by the way - cleaning parade grounds with a toothbrush etc)0
