Attention: Please take a moment to consider our terms and conditions before posting.
Alfie May- Progress at Birmingham
Comments
-
I don't see it as an indictment of his ability at all and I've never said I did. I see it as an assessment of what he brings overall to a team by managers looking to progress to the next level, which it plainly is. I think he's a good striker and I wish we'd kept him, but his last two managers have looked at him and rightly or wrongly thought they need better or different, which is interesting with a 20+ goal striker. Alfie's always been a throwback as a player and it seems like no matter how many goals he scores managers aiming for the Championship want a different profile of player and he's evidently not seen as what they're looking for. I do feel for him as he must be wondering what a striker with his record has to do to win them overChunes said:
I think you're seeing it how you want. You want to see Brum spending £12-20m on a striker in League One as some kind of indictment of May's ability. I disagree because that's seems plainly illogical to me, but won't argue more because we'll just go round in circles.Garrymanilow said:
You can see it however you want but a team looking to get promoted from the Championship decided they wanted better than Alfie May after having a good look at Alfie May and signed two new players to play ahead of him. You can't leave Dykes out of the conversation either, May has since fallen behind both him and Stansfield in Birmingham's attempt to go straight up. Where has £12m come from by the way? I've only seen £15m rising to £20m with add-ons.Chunes said:
Yeah they did. Because a 12-million-pound striker is going to be miles better than Alfie May.Garrymanilow said:
But they had him and decided to sign that striker. It wasn't an accident, they looked at the striker options they had and brought in two new ones over the one they'd just bought because they wanted better. Birmingham aren't a good case study for normal behaviour this season but you can tell they're wanting to blow L1 away and they've decided that despite his goals May is a squad player for that, not an essential piece. I'll bet he's fuming, I wonder what they told him his role would be when they signed him. You'd have to assume they kept the whole 'we'll immediately also buy Jay Stansfield and Lyndon Dykes' thing fairly quiet.Chunes said:I think he'd have done just fine as their man main had they not signed a 12 million pound striker.
I take issue with any idea they looked at May and thought he wasn't good enough or they needed better - when the upgrade they brought in should never be affordable to a team in this league. That's not a judgement on May at all. If anything it's a compliment that his upgrade cost that much.1 -
@fenaddick well at least you have tried to answer my questions.
Ok so in your telling, it's all about "pressing". A tedious Americanism like "low block", but never mind. You at least concede that he did press, but was not "disciplined" enough. I don't know exactly what you mean by "disciplined"; I suspect "sustained" or "consistent" are more accurate words. The trouble with last season was, nobody else in the front line was a "consistent Presser" either. Certainly not TC, and Tedic and Ladapo both gave up on pressing at all after flattering to deceive in the first couple of games. Difficult to be a "disciplined" presser if the others don't give you any help.
My point though is that at this level, if you have an outstanding goalscorer, it's better to hang on to him and build the team with him as a given because, as I keep saying, replacing him is damned hard. He may not "press" in a disciplined way but he does bother defenders - who was the experienced manager last season who called him a "pest".? You would be fool hardy in the extreme to send both CBs up for a corner if Alfie May is lurking on the half way line. What's more, if you do get the ball up to Alfie May, he's able to hold it in a way that nobody in the current forward line up is able to do.
Of course I saw the barneys on the stream. They came along with him being dropped or subbed for reasons beyond not just tactical illiterates like me but everyone in the Charlton TV studio too. That's one of the reasons why I think the whole thing is a personality clash. And it takes two to barney. If as a manager you've got a dissenter in the ranks in almost any other position then I agree, he's got to go. But a really proven striker has to be at least a case where the manager has to swallow his pride and try and *manage* the player round to a different way of playing, because they are so rare.
I'd like to agree with your assessment of all three of the current forwards you mention. Godden in particular I'd cut slack after Brownie mentioned that he was surprised when Godden told him he'd only started a game 4 times since January. TC has worked hard on himself this summer, but he's not a striker. That experiment could have set him back, especially when they made him take a penalty. He's a wide player, but never a wing-back. That leaves Ahadme. You say he "sticks to the gameplan". But that's the problem. I'm not the only one who can't see what the gameplan actually is. He's supposed to be good getting on the end of the crosses. So where are these crosses coming from? Otherwise, he "presses" in a disciplined way. So we paid at least as much as we got for May, for someone who chases the ball around. Great.
5 -
I can’t understand the argument that we sold Alfie because he wouldn’t have made it in the Championship, do people really think any of the replacements we have brought in would have?7
-
@PragueAddick I think we're getting closer to what you don't see here, and that's totally fine. I am in the lucky position where I have spare time to digest lots of tactics chat that others aren't able to. I will try to explain what I mean a bit more but I'm not a professional in this so apologies if anything is harder to digest!
Firstly, none of those things are Americanisms it's just language evolving with the tactics which actually come from mainland Europe on the whole. When I say disciplined, I mean disciplined and not sustained or consistent. There will be a structure in place, player A blocks of channel Y when the ball is in this space/at this players feet. Then player B prepares to cut of the next space/player etc. Effectively you have a shape and you try to funnel the ball to a particular player/area where you have strengths or the opposition have weaknesses. That means you don't run just to where the ball is or just to cut out the easy pass, NJ might want that particular easy pass because the recipient is a poor passer or is slow or we have an overload in that position.
You are correct that Ladapo wasn't good at that, TC barely played last season and Tedic was gone before Jones came in. Kanu did play with May a lot and his pressing was good. You can see it when he presses, he checks back to look at the structure behind him when May often would just run at the ball. Admittedly, some of that was because the structure behind him was lacking. But this is what he and Jones would bicker about, it was his positional play off the ball. You can say Jones should swallow his pride but he was hired by the board after he set out how he was going to play, what that requires and a roadmap for how that plays out. He can't then rip that all up because the star player doesn't follow instructions. If I don't follow my line managers instructions I will get in trouble at work, that's how employment works.
I actually think TC could be a could striker, it's just a tough environment for him to learn it. The figures bandied about are tough to verify but I think it is likely that May's deal was a high % cash up front with incentives and Ahadme's was the inverse with a low % up front and lots dependent on incentives. May is older so less time to build incentives and has a proven track record, Ahadme is more of a punt but has potential and Ipswich wanted him off their books. And you're right about the gameplan, come read the tactics thread where we discuss that with some differing views and opinions. Ahadme is more than someone who chases the ball around, we just haven't played to his strengths yet. That's a different issue to what we're discussing here though.2 -
OK @fenaddick, your explanation of "disciplined" press is definitely helpful to me, thanks for that.
I was interested in the "TC as striker" experiment, but I think that strikers have a certain temperament, icy cold in front of goal, greedy. I don't think TC has that temperament. He could still score more goals playing wide, like CBT or (the incomparable at this level) JRS, but I fear neither of them would interest NJ even if they were available to us now.
While I generally immerse myself in stats, I'm a bit wary of the new wave of football stats, to many of them seem to rely on qualitative judgements, nevertheless I found these Fotmob charts for May and Ahadme interesting to compare. In this case the stats are compiled over a 365 day period, so most of
the May stats are from his time with us. 0 -
Those charts perfectly show the differences in them, look at the defensive action %'s. The shot attempts to goals ratio is also really informative in my opinion1
-
The fact they've had to spend 12-20m on a player to get better than May is a compliment to him.Chunes said:
I think you're seeing it how you want. You want to see Brum spending £12-20m on a striker in League One as some kind of indictment of May's ability. I disagree because that's seems plainly illogical to me, but won't argue more because we'll just go round in circles.Garrymanilow said:
You can see it however you want but a team looking to get promoted from the Championship decided they wanted better than Alfie May after having a good look at Alfie May and signed two new players to play ahead of him. You can't leave Dykes out of the conversation either, May has since fallen behind both him and Stansfield in Birmingham's attempt to go straight up. Where has £12m come from by the way? I've only seen £15m rising to £20m with add-ons.Chunes said:
Yeah they did. Because a 12-million-pound striker is going to be miles better than Alfie May.Garrymanilow said:
But they had him and decided to sign that striker. It wasn't an accident, they looked at the striker options they had and brought in two new ones over the one they'd just bought because they wanted better. Birmingham aren't a good case study for normal behaviour this season but you can tell they're wanting to blow L1 away and they've decided that despite his goals May is a squad player for that, not an essential piece. I'll bet he's fuming, I wonder what they told him his role would be when they signed him. You'd have to assume they kept the whole 'we'll immediately also buy Jay Stansfield and Lyndon Dykes' thing fairly quiet.Chunes said:I think he'd have done just fine as their man main had they not signed a 12 million pound striker.
I take issue with any idea they looked at May and thought he wasn't good enough or they needed better - when the upgrade they brought in should never be affordable to a team in this league. That's not a judgement on May at all. If anything it's a compliment that his upgrade cost that much.
We spent 1m to replace him and look where that has us, unable to score and looking toothless in front of goal.8 -
As they stand, those stats are absolutely useless because they can be interpreted in different ways and there's no metadata to explain how they are constructed and what they actually show. To be fair to the original data provider there is a 'question mark button' and this information may be sitting behind it. It's not copied here though, so there's nothing concrete we can say about them.
Specific questions that need to be addressed: How are the percentages calculated? Is it a percentage of the score against the best performing striker in the cohort or the average or something else (I'm guessing it's the best player looking at the numbers, but we simply don't know that)? Who is in the cohort - selected forwards? all forwards in the division? all forwards in the league? all forwards in the world? Is there a threshold to be included (age, goals scored, professional status)? How do they define 'forwards' - specifically, how do they account for players who take more than one role? Is the amount of time played, accounted for? If so, how? What is meant by those categories? Some are seemingly straightforward - Goals seems pretty obvious, but what does 'Chances created' mean, is that the historical (and rather poor) 'assists' where only the last man to touch the ball before the goalscorer is credited, or is there something more sophisticated going on? What is the timeframe - last match? season to date? last whole season? whole career?
Like much of what passes for statistics, it isn't really of any use unless we have a better understanding of what it actually means.0 -
back starting tonight (1/10) .. in an 'advanced three' behind Stansfield0
-
To me it suggests that Ahadme could have been a good partner for May. Ahadme and Ladapo look like similar players, and we saw that video when Ladapo arrived of May pointing to him and saying "partner".fenaddick said:Those charts perfectly show the differences in them, look at the defensive action %'s. The shot attempts to goals ratio is also really informative in my opinion
I am wondering about your interpretation of the stats, too...0 - Sponsored links:
-
.0
-
First of all we have to get to the fucking championship, neither of the strikers we brought in are good enough for league one let alone the championship. Godden was good for Coventry 2 seasons ago but his legs have gone, Gas simply is no where good enough just like the hasbeens we signed to play in midfield. I'm sure that many of the rose tinted brigade will lol my comments, lets see where we are at the end of the season.Hartleypete said:I can’t understand the argument that we sold Alfie because he wouldn’t have made it in the Championship, do people really think any of the replacements we have brought in would have?3 -
A good post thanks but in relation to Gas can you explain what you think his strengths are & why do you think we have bought him if we aren't going to play to his strengths ? I'm not taking the piss I just don't see anything that he brings to the team that suggests promotion material.fenaddick said:@PragueAddick I think we're getting closer to what you don't see here, and that's totally fine. I am in the lucky position where I have spare time to digest lots of tactics chat that others aren't able to. I will try to explain what I mean a bit more but I'm not a professional in this so apologies if anything is harder to digest!
Firstly, none of those things are Americanisms it's just language evolving with the tactics which actually come from mainland Europe on the whole. When I say disciplined, I mean disciplined and not sustained or consistent. There will be a structure in place, player A blocks of channel Y when the ball is in this space/at this players feet. Then player B prepares to cut of the next space/player etc. Effectively you have a shape and you try to funnel the ball to a particular player/area where you have strengths or the opposition have weaknesses. That means you don't run just to where the ball is or just to cut out the easy pass, NJ might want that particular easy pass because the recipient is a poor passer or is slow or we have an overload in that position.
You are correct that Ladapo wasn't good at that, TC barely played last season and Tedic was gone before Jones came in. Kanu did play with May a lot and his pressing was good. You can see it when he presses, he checks back to look at the structure behind him when May often would just run at the ball. Admittedly, some of that was because the structure behind him was lacking. But this is what he and Jones would bicker about, it was his positional play off the ball. You can say Jones should swallow his pride but he was hired by the board after he set out how he was going to play, what that requires and a roadmap for how that plays out. He can't then rip that all up because the star player doesn't follow instructions. If I don't follow my line managers instructions I will get in trouble at work, that's how employment works.
I actually think TC could be a could striker, it's just a tough environment for him to learn it. The figures bandied about are tough to verify but I think it is likely that May's deal was a high % cash up front with incentives and Ahadme's was the inverse with a low % up front and lots dependent on incentives. May is older so less time to build incentives and has a proven track record, Ahadme is more of a punt but has potential and Ipswich wanted him off their books. And you're right about the gameplan, come read the tactics thread where we discuss that with some differing views and opinions. Ahadme is more than someone who chases the ball around, we just haven't played to his strengths yet. That's a different issue to what we're discussing here though.0 -
I’m not watching today and sounds like he’s having a stinker but his strength is getting on the end of crosses and we don’t cross the ballcharltonbob said:
A good post thanks but in relation to Gas can you explain what you think his strengths are & why do you think we have bought him if we aren't going to play to his strengths ? I'm not taking the piss I just don't see anything that he brings to the team that suggests promotion material.fenaddick said:@PragueAddick I think we're getting closer to what you don't see here, and that's totally fine. I am in the lucky position where I have spare time to digest lots of tactics chat that others aren't able to. I will try to explain what I mean a bit more but I'm not a professional in this so apologies if anything is harder to digest!
Firstly, none of those things are Americanisms it's just language evolving with the tactics which actually come from mainland Europe on the whole. When I say disciplined, I mean disciplined and not sustained or consistent. There will be a structure in place, player A blocks of channel Y when the ball is in this space/at this players feet. Then player B prepares to cut of the next space/player etc. Effectively you have a shape and you try to funnel the ball to a particular player/area where you have strengths or the opposition have weaknesses. That means you don't run just to where the ball is or just to cut out the easy pass, NJ might want that particular easy pass because the recipient is a poor passer or is slow or we have an overload in that position.
You are correct that Ladapo wasn't good at that, TC barely played last season and Tedic was gone before Jones came in. Kanu did play with May a lot and his pressing was good. You can see it when he presses, he checks back to look at the structure behind him when May often would just run at the ball. Admittedly, some of that was because the structure behind him was lacking. But this is what he and Jones would bicker about, it was his positional play off the ball. You can say Jones should swallow his pride but he was hired by the board after he set out how he was going to play, what that requires and a roadmap for how that plays out. He can't then rip that all up because the star player doesn't follow instructions. If I don't follow my line managers instructions I will get in trouble at work, that's how employment works.
I actually think TC could be a could striker, it's just a tough environment for him to learn it. The figures bandied about are tough to verify but I think it is likely that May's deal was a high % cash up front with incentives and Ahadme's was the inverse with a low % up front and lots dependent on incentives. May is older so less time to build incentives and has a proven track record, Ahadme is more of a punt but has potential and Ipswich wanted him off their books. And you're right about the gameplan, come read the tactics thread where we discuss that with some differing views and opinions. Ahadme is more than someone who chases the ball around, we just haven't played to his strengths yet. That's a different issue to what we're discussing here though.0 -
He’s not been the worst in that first half by any means and won our first corner through hassling a defender. That this happened on the 40 th minute tells you all you need to know about our oversll performance.fenaddick said:
I’m not watching today and sounds like he’s having a stinker but his strength is getting on the end of crosses and we don’t cross the ballcharltonbob said:
A good post thanks but in relation to Gas can you explain what you think his strengths are & why do you think we have bought him if we aren't going to play to his strengths ? I'm not taking the piss I just don't see anything that he brings to the team that suggests promotion material.fenaddick said:@PragueAddick I think we're getting closer to what you don't see here, and that's totally fine. I am in the lucky position where I have spare time to digest lots of tactics chat that others aren't able to. I will try to explain what I mean a bit more but I'm not a professional in this so apologies if anything is harder to digest!
Firstly, none of those things are Americanisms it's just language evolving with the tactics which actually come from mainland Europe on the whole. When I say disciplined, I mean disciplined and not sustained or consistent. There will be a structure in place, player A blocks of channel Y when the ball is in this space/at this players feet. Then player B prepares to cut of the next space/player etc. Effectively you have a shape and you try to funnel the ball to a particular player/area where you have strengths or the opposition have weaknesses. That means you don't run just to where the ball is or just to cut out the easy pass, NJ might want that particular easy pass because the recipient is a poor passer or is slow or we have an overload in that position.
You are correct that Ladapo wasn't good at that, TC barely played last season and Tedic was gone before Jones came in. Kanu did play with May a lot and his pressing was good. You can see it when he presses, he checks back to look at the structure behind him when May often would just run at the ball. Admittedly, some of that was because the structure behind him was lacking. But this is what he and Jones would bicker about, it was his positional play off the ball. You can say Jones should swallow his pride but he was hired by the board after he set out how he was going to play, what that requires and a roadmap for how that plays out. He can't then rip that all up because the star player doesn't follow instructions. If I don't follow my line managers instructions I will get in trouble at work, that's how employment works.
I actually think TC could be a could striker, it's just a tough environment for him to learn it. The figures bandied about are tough to verify but I think it is likely that May's deal was a high % cash up front with incentives and Ahadme's was the inverse with a low % up front and lots dependent on incentives. May is older so less time to build incentives and has a proven track record, Ahadme is more of a punt but has potential and Ipswich wanted him off their books. And you're right about the gameplan, come read the tactics thread where we discuss that with some differing views and opinions. Ahadme is more than someone who chases the ball around, we just haven't played to his strengths yet. That's a different issue to what we're discussing here though.0 -
What's Mays strengths?fenaddick said:
I’m not watching today and sounds like he’s having a stinker but his strength is getting on the end of crosses and we don’t cross the ballcharltonbob said:
A good post thanks but in relation to Gas can you explain what you think his strengths are & why do you think we have bought him if we aren't going to play to his strengths ? I'm not taking the piss I just don't see anything that he brings to the team that suggests promotion material.fenaddick said:@PragueAddick I think we're getting closer to what you don't see here, and that's totally fine. I am in the lucky position where I have spare time to digest lots of tactics chat that others aren't able to. I will try to explain what I mean a bit more but I'm not a professional in this so apologies if anything is harder to digest!
Firstly, none of those things are Americanisms it's just language evolving with the tactics which actually come from mainland Europe on the whole. When I say disciplined, I mean disciplined and not sustained or consistent. There will be a structure in place, player A blocks of channel Y when the ball is in this space/at this players feet. Then player B prepares to cut of the next space/player etc. Effectively you have a shape and you try to funnel the ball to a particular player/area where you have strengths or the opposition have weaknesses. That means you don't run just to where the ball is or just to cut out the easy pass, NJ might want that particular easy pass because the recipient is a poor passer or is slow or we have an overload in that position.
You are correct that Ladapo wasn't good at that, TC barely played last season and Tedic was gone before Jones came in. Kanu did play with May a lot and his pressing was good. You can see it when he presses, he checks back to look at the structure behind him when May often would just run at the ball. Admittedly, some of that was because the structure behind him was lacking. But this is what he and Jones would bicker about, it was his positional play off the ball. You can say Jones should swallow his pride but he was hired by the board after he set out how he was going to play, what that requires and a roadmap for how that plays out. He can't then rip that all up because the star player doesn't follow instructions. If I don't follow my line managers instructions I will get in trouble at work, that's how employment works.
I actually think TC could be a could striker, it's just a tough environment for him to learn it. The figures bandied about are tough to verify but I think it is likely that May's deal was a high % cash up front with incentives and Ahadme's was the inverse with a low % up front and lots dependent on incentives. May is older so less time to build incentives and has a proven track record, Ahadme is more of a punt but has potential and Ipswich wanted him off their books. And you're right about the gameplan, come read the tactics thread where we discuss that with some differing views and opinions. Ahadme is more than someone who chases the ball around, we just haven't played to his strengths yet. That's a different issue to what we're discussing here though.0 -
May has scored0
-
You build a successful team by keeping your best and middling players, selling your worst players and replacing them with ones who are better than your best players. It might take time, but if you do that over a few consecutive windows, e.g. how someone like Plymouth did, your best players become your middling ones, your middling ones become your worst and slowly but sustainably you improve in all areas and will eventually get to where you want to be.
I don't care if May, CBT, and Dobbo were good enough for a promotion team, if we have genuine ambition, they should have been kept so we could build on what was good in our squad. Instead, we let our best go, and appear to have signed players that are, at best, middling players by comparison, and logically we have stood still or gone backwards.
That is the problem in a nutshell. It's not even really about the individual strengths and weaknesses of those players it's about what it says about the long-term planning and ambition of the club.17 -
Chem Campbell out done him with a brace for Reading!se9addick said:May has scored3 - Sponsored links:
-
But I still think if Jones was given the option of spending @£750K and keeping May as well, he would have done so.RodneyCharltonTrotta said:
He surely sold May because otherwise he would have an @zero transfer fund.8 -
If we had a bigger budget then May and potentially Dobson would still be hereCovered End said:
But I still think if Jones was given the option of spending @£750K and keeping May as well, he would have done so.RodneyCharltonTrotta said:
He surely sold May because otherwise he would have an @zero transfer fund.3 -
If he scores and we lose on Saturday it could be an all timer fanbase meltdown3
-
Also missed a header from a foot out.I thought it was strange that May was so emotional in his leaving video.0
-
May is a baller.....great touch...two good feet....runs all day long.....great finisher......worst decision ever to let him go.....NJ hasn't got a fcuking clue12
-
Well CBT joined Derby who got promoted (and scored Saturfay)Exiled_Addick said:You build a successful team by keeping your best and middling players, selling your worst players and replacing them with ones who are better than your best players. It might take time, but if you do that over a few consecutive windows, e.g. how someone like Plymouth did, your best players become your middling ones, your middling ones become your worst and slowly but sustainably you improve in all areas and will eventually get to where you want to be.
I don't care if May, CBT, and Dobbo were good enough for a promotion team, if we have genuine ambition, they should have been kept so we could build on what was good in our squad. Instead, we let our best go, and appear to have signed players that are, at best, middling players by comparison, and logically we have stood still or gone backwards.
That is the problem in a nutshell. It's not even really about the individual strengths and weaknesses of those players it's about what it says about the long-term planning and ambition of the club.
Alfie is at top of the table Birmingham (and scored again last night)
Dobson is at top 6 Wrexham.
Looks to me like the majority are good enough to join sides getting / via for promotion.4 -
Our former players always seem to score against us....so I fully expect him to score on the weekend against us.1
-
If a striker as bad as Bonne can score for two different rubbish teams in one season against us, imagine what the best striker in the division playing for the best team in the division will do!SidewaysInOz said:Our former players always seem to score against us....so I fully expect him to score on the weekend against us.2 -
ct_addick said:May is a baller.....great touch...two good feet....runs all day long.....great finisher......worst decision ever to let him go.....NJ hasn't got a fcuking clue
I'd not be surprised that Jones was possibly told there was limited funds but feel free to get rid of May to release more money.
2
