I am going to say it!! Yes I am, Nathan Jones......................

fenaddick said:

Braziliance said:

fenaddick said:

Braziliance said:

Myself and many others spend a lot of money and time off work following this team and have invested in what our manager promised us at the start of the season, if it isn't being shown on the pitch, of course people are going to moan. 

It's doubtful people would moan if we were winning 46/46 games this season and playing boring while doing so, but that's literally impossible. To be a team who gets promoted, you need to play attractive football in one art form, whether that's attacking, defense, or a mixture of both. We aren't doing any, and that's why people are having a moan, not strictly because of the results themselves.

Would be interesting to see where the tipping point is though. If we were doing enough to be in 3rd/4th but playing like this would the fans be happy? Under Garner a lot of the talk was "I don't care how we play as long as we get promoted, stop tip-tapping around". 

Yes cause to be in 3rd or 4th, it's very likely you are an exciting team to watch. No team is getting a good finish with the current playstyle, it's just a bizarre hypothetical imo, not being rude to you mate and sorry if it seems that way. 

All the current top4 play exciting football to an extent if you look at their styles. They all have an identity. Wycombe are your typical all round side, similar to Pompey and Plymouth, goals in the team and hard to beat. Birmingham play pure possession football creating a lot of chances, Wrexham are your hard working type playing off of momentum and togetherness, and Stockport a similar approach but with a bit more individual quality.

Compared to us, not exactly hard to beat, mentally fragile at times, don't create a lot, and don't score a lot. And to top if off, pretty much 0 momentum or buzz around the club.

The Burton stats are quite deceiving as they're truly just woeful and we played against ten men for half an hour, and most of our chances were crap. If you look at it collectively across the season as well, no real threat. 

If we played like how we did vs Birmingham, Bolton and Stockport every game, I wouldn't complain, but the levels of commitment that make that playstyle viable just aren't there every game.

Would I take us playing like a budget Atletico? Yes, as that's an art form. What I can't stand is the in-between nonsense. If we can't be a great attacking team, then be an excellent defensive team who are exciting on the attack. That's the basics

I would say we're attempting to play in a similar style to Wrexham just not executing it well enough at all

Braziliance said:

fenaddick said:

Braziliance said:

fenaddick said:

Braziliance said:

Myself and many others spend a lot of money and time off work following this team and have invested in what our manager promised us at the start of the season, if it isn't being shown on the pitch, of course people are going to moan. 

It's doubtful people would moan if we were winning 46/46 games this season and playing boring while doing so, but that's literally impossible. To be a team who gets promoted, you need to play attractive football in one art form, whether that's attacking, defense, or a mixture of both. We aren't doing any, and that's why people are having a moan, not strictly because of the results themselves.

Would be interesting to see where the tipping point is though. If we were doing enough to be in 3rd/4th but playing like this would the fans be happy? Under Garner a lot of the talk was "I don't care how we play as long as we get promoted, stop tip-tapping around". 

Yes cause to be in 3rd or 4th, it's very likely you are an exciting team to watch. No team is getting a good finish with the current playstyle, it's just a bizarre hypothetical imo, not being rude to you mate and sorry if it seems that way. 

All the current top4 play exciting football to an extent if you look at their styles. They all have an identity. Wycombe are your typical all round side, similar to Pompey and Plymouth, goals in the team and hard to beat. Birmingham play pure possession football creating a lot of chances, Wrexham are your hard working type playing off of momentum and togetherness, and Stockport a similar approach but with a bit more individual quality.

Compared to us, not exactly hard to beat, mentally fragile at times, don't create a lot, and don't score a lot. And to top if off, pretty much 0 momentum or buzz around the club.

The Burton stats are quite deceiving as they're truly just woeful and we played against ten men for half an hour, and most of our chances were crap. If you look at it collectively across the season as well, no real threat. 

If we played like how we did vs Birmingham, Bolton and Stockport every game, I wouldn't complain, but the levels of commitment that make that playstyle viable just aren't there every game.

Would I take us playing like a budget Atletico? Yes, as that's an art form. What I can't stand is the in-between nonsense. If we can't be a great attacking team, then be an excellent defensive team who are exciting on the attack. That's the basics

I would say we're attempting to play in a similar style to Wrexham just not executing it well enough at all

It's all context, they have to play that way, as they've just been promoted and have a largely league 2 squad they'll need to upgrade. Not to mention a manager we should have outgrown a long time ago. 

Braziliance said:

I keep seeing the comments along the lines of ''if we were winning, no one would care'' on here and on twitter, and I have to take issue with that. 

Not one person at Burton, or the majority of away games I've been to has said we played well etc that I interacted with. I'd actually say every single person I could hear or see around me at Burton was criticising how we played and when we did score, it was more just relief we got a result. 

Not being a snob, and not attacking anyone's credentials as a Charlton fan or how much they attend, but it is a completely different feeling travelling for 7+ hours through the day and watching a poor performance, over sitting on the couch and spending a tenner on CharltonTV. I'm speaking from experience here. When I watched Huddersfield away the other week on the telly, I didn't feel anywhere near as disappointed as Reading away as a more recent example when we lost.

Ok I was disappointed Charlton lost, but it's a lot easier accepting s**t performances and bad results when you can just get off your couch and put on call of duty or Netflix etc. 

If I spend 60-100 on petrol, 20+ on a ticket, every other weekend, I expect us to look like a team who has practiced and show ability. 

I need to make it clear I'm not gate keeping, it's just the levels of disappointment just can't be the same when you're there, as opposed to watching from the comfort at home. 

Radostanradical said:

Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:

Radostanradical said:

Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:

Radostanradical said:

The style of play argument against Jones for me is an odd one as we all know that if we were winning games most wouldnt complain if the football wasnt particularly attractive, after all I remember the football we played under Curbs with Bartlett (in the prem, pre Bent) up top wasnt too pretty either but most didnt care because of what we were achieving.

All that said is the results arent going our way and thats going to put extra emphasis on our style of play, winning ugly is acceptable but losing ugly isnt. For the style of play to be a defence for NJ we do actually have to win games. The next month is vital for him we need to be around play-offs come Jan to get the calibre of players we need in and get the board to part with cash. If we are going to be mid-table with very little prospect of play-offs we may as well let Jones see out the season with what he has (as long as we arent facing relegation) then decide in the summer whether we back jones with more resources or those resources should go to a new manager.

Also one thing i do see here i Jones getting stick for his "failure" at Southampton, in his defence i think Ancelotti, Ferguson, Clough et al would have struggled with that team. they were truly one of the worst in Prem history.

Well we did win Tuesday, but it hasn't stopped the style of play argument.
Why is it odd?
I would agree if we were consistently winning people would be more accepting of the style but I doubt it would be stop the criticism.
I don't accept your tenuous comparison with Curbs "Bartlett" era.
There is no comparison between this  perennial third division shit and Curbs making us competitive in the Premier League with comparatively inferior players to other PL sides

Because it was one win against a team with 8 points who are bottom of the league. 

I didnt compare, thats a strawman argument. So it's not tenuous and your point at the end is regarding curbishley is literally the point im making. 

You literally made a comparison. It's there in black and white ffs. No straw involved.
And yes, it was one win, but that doesn't invalidate my point that consistent wins would not stop the criticism dead. Might get a lot less, but not end completely
I'll resist the urge to reciprocate your spurious LOL

I dont think you understand what comparison is ? I mentioned that when we played poor football under Curbishley people didn't mind as long as we got results, Jones isn't getting results so its not a comparison ? 

Miriam-Webster dictionary definition of comparison - "the representing of one thing or person as similar to or like another"

I'm literally saying they are nothing like each other ? Now repeat that back to me so i know you understood it. 

Spurious ? Mate was the LOL fake ? please don't use words you don't understand. Just stick to your comfort zone and only use words you see in The Sun or back of cereal boxes.

Radostanradical said:

Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:

Radostanradical said:

Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:

Radostanradical said:

Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:

Radostanradical said:

The style of play argument against Jones for me is an odd one as we all know that if we were winning games most wouldnt complain if the football wasnt particularly attractive, after all I remember the football we played under Curbs with Bartlett (in the prem, pre Bent) up top wasnt too pretty either but most didnt care because of what we were achieving.

All that said is the results arent going our way and thats going to put extra emphasis on our style of play, winning ugly is acceptable but losing ugly isnt. For the style of play to be a defence for NJ we do actually have to win games. The next month is vital for him we need to be around play-offs come Jan to get the calibre of players we need in and get the board to part with cash. If we are going to be mid-table with very little prospect of play-offs we may as well let Jones see out the season with what he has (as long as we arent facing relegation) then decide in the summer whether we back jones with more resources or those resources should go to a new manager.

Also one thing i do see here i Jones getting stick for his "failure" at Southampton, in his defence i think Ancelotti, Ferguson, Clough et al would have struggled with that team. they were truly one of the worst in Prem history.

Well we did win Tuesday, but it hasn't stopped the style of play argument.
Why is it odd?
I would agree if we were consistently winning people would be more accepting of the style but I doubt it would be stop the criticism.
I don't accept your tenuous comparison with Curbs "Bartlett" era.
There is no comparison between this  perennial third division shit and Curbs making us competitive in the Premier League with comparatively inferior players to other PL sides

Because it was one win against a team with 8 points who are bottom of the league. 

I didnt compare, thats a strawman argument. So it's not tenuous and your point at the end is regarding curbishley is literally the point im making. 

You literally made a comparison. It's there in black and white ffs. No straw involved.
And yes, it was one win, but that doesn't invalidate my point that consistent wins would not stop the criticism dead. Might get a lot less, but not end completely
I'll resist the urge to reciprocate your spurious LOL

I dont think you understand what comparison is ? I mentioned that when we played poor football under Curbishley people didn't mind as long as we got results, Jones isn't getting results so its not a comparison ? 

Miriam-Webster dictionary definition of comparison - "the representing of one thing or person as similar to or like another"

I'm literally saying they are nothing like each other ? Now repeat that back to me so i know you understood it. 

Spurious ? Mate was the LOL fake ? please don't use words you don't understand. Just stick to your comfort zone and only use words you see in The Sun or back of cereal boxes.

I prefer the Oxford definition of comparison:- "a consideration or estimate of the similarities or dissimilarities between two things or people".
Now go back and read your original paragraph.
Obnoxious twat

But I wasn't listing similarities or dissimilarities was I ?

Maybe find an adult and have them read it back to you.

Word's always seem to fail those that swear, now be a good boy and don't touch the keyboard again until an adult gives you permission.

Braziliance said:

Radostanradical said:

Braziliance said:

I keep seeing the comments along the lines of ''if we were winning, no one would care'' on here and on twitter, and I have to take issue with that. 

Not one person at Burton, or the majority of away games I've been to has said we played well etc that I interacted with. I'd actually say every single person I could hear or see around me at Burton was criticising how we played and when we did score, it was more just relief we got a result. 

Not being a snob, and not attacking anyone's credentials as a Charlton fan or how much they attend, but it is a completely different feeling travelling for 7+ hours through the day and watching a poor performance, over sitting on the couch and spending a tenner on CharltonTV. I'm speaking from experience here. When I watched Huddersfield away the other week on the telly, I didn't feel anywhere near as disappointed as Reading away as a more recent example when we lost.

Ok I was disappointed Charlton lost, but it's a lot easier accepting s**t performances and bad results when you can just get off your couch and put on call of duty or Netflix etc. 

If I spend 60-100 on petrol, 20+ on a ticket, every other weekend, I expect us to look like a team who has practiced and show ability. 

I need to make it clear I'm not gate keeping, it's just the levels of disappointment just can't be the same when you're there, as opposed to watching from the comfort at home. 

Because they are bottom of the table and only have 8 points and it wasn't ugly we were terrible. You know full well that isn't the point people are making. The point is if we were consistently winning matches people wouldn't mind the the style of football that achieves results.

No I actually don't know full well, because I can't understand how people keep saying ''if we were winning matches with this style you wouldn't care" as that's literally impossible, as no team ever had won anything with how we are playing.

If you went to any other sport and said right, play this s**t style, that doesn't entertain fans, and doesn't create enough chances on average to win what kind of reaction would you get? 

There isn't a style, even our own manager alludes to that every other presser by saying "we aren't getting the basics right". If you can't get your team to function and do the simple stuff, how can there be a style.

No team has ever got promotion from this league playing this 'style' as it is simply not a style. It's a confused mixture of s**t. It's barely jack of all trades and absolutely master of none football.

Athletico Charlton said:

Lots of comments about the good football Garner tried playing as a comparison to Jones style.
Garnerball involved our sub standard defenders knocking the ball aimlessly around the back tempting the opposition towards us before Famewo or one of the others tripped up, whilst passing it to the opposition and Wollacot then diving over the ball as it nestled in our net.  It was a different style but similarly shit to watch.

Braziliance said:

I keep seeing the comments along the lines of ''if we were winning, no one would care'' on here and on twitter, and I have to take issue with that. 

Not one person at Burton, or the majority of away games I've been to has said we played well etc that I interacted with. I'd actually say every single person I could hear or see around me at Burton was criticising how we played and when we did score, it was more just relief we got a result. 

Not being a snob, and not attacking anyone's credentials as a Charlton fan or how much they attend, but it is a completely different feeling travelling for 7+ hours through the day and watching a poor performance, over sitting on the couch and spending a tenner on CharltonTV. I'm speaking from experience here. When I watched Huddersfield away the other week on the telly, I didn't feel anywhere near as disappointed as Reading away as a more recent example when we lost.

Ok I was disappointed Charlton lost, but it's a lot easier accepting s**t performances and bad results when you can just get off your couch and put on call of duty or Netflix etc. 

If I spend 60-100 on petrol, 20+ on a ticket, every other weekend, I expect us to look like a team who has practiced and show ability. 

I need to make it clear I'm not gate keeping, it's just the levels of disappointment just can't be the same when you're there, as opposed to watching from the comfort at home. 

fenaddick said:

paulsturgess said:

fenaddick said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Stig said:

Callumcafc said:

eaststandmike said:

Callumcafc said:

hezzla said:

I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh.  Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.

Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:

"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."

"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it.  It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."

Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division.  He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.  

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p2

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p3

Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.

If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.

It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.

Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.

Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.

I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.

You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…

People don’t care. If you win.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1

Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.

Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10

Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1

“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”



Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”. 

Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.

Repeat a question from before.

What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary. 

Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?

I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning. 

People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.

There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.


And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.

There is a huge point you are missing here when trying to justify Jones and the style, comparing it to other managers eg Garner etc etc

Ignore all the other bum flufferies - the fundamental point is that WE ARE NOT EVEN TRYING TO WIN GAMES!!! Every successful team we have ever had, the overwhelming majority of successful teams at any level in any season in history - try to win most of their football matches. You can debate the aesthetics but the absolutely fundamental point here is that Nathan Jones teams are not trying to win football matches; his strategy is to try not to get beaten and HOPE. 

So people hate the style of play but more than anything else they hate it because he’s not even striving for the same goal as us; at least Garner was trying to set teams up to go out and win football matches. Jones is setting his teams up to run around aimlessly for 90 minutes then draw a high card against the opposing manager when the 4th official’s board appears!

Call me self entitled but in the 3rd tier against Shrewsbury, Stockport and sodding Stevenage I believe that it is reasonable to expect a management and a board who are determined to go out and WIN the football match.

You genuinely think about 30 professional football players, 5 coaches and a manager aren’t trying to win games? They’re taking a different approach to you or I but I don’t think you can say they aren’t attempting to win

Such a stupid literal comment.  

They want to win Fen, of course, but anyone can see the strategy is to first NOT LOSE , and then 2nd to hope a coin toss goes your way. 

If you are trying to WIN you go out and attack, keep the ball, play In their half, shoot. Thats how you get promoted. Jones’ way is how you scramble about to stay out of the bottom 4 because the other teams are better than you.

You can’t backtrack when someone reads your words back to you, maybe you didn’t mean them that way but it’s a written forum so that’s how they’ll come across. 

I don’t agree with your assessment either, the tactic is with the aim of winning it just isn’t working 

paulsturgess said:

fenaddick said:

paulsturgess said:

fenaddick said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Stig said:

Callumcafc said:

eaststandmike said:

Callumcafc said:

hezzla said:

I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh.  Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.

Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:

"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."

"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it.  It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."

Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division.  He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.  

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p2

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p3

Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.

If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.

It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.

Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.

Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.

I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.

You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…

People don’t care. If you win.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1

Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.

Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10

Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1

“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”



Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”. 

Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.

Repeat a question from before.

What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary. 

Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?

I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning. 

People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.

There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.


And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.

There is a huge point you are missing here when trying to justify Jones and the style, comparing it to other managers eg Garner etc etc

Ignore all the other bum flufferies - the fundamental point is that WE ARE NOT EVEN TRYING TO WIN GAMES!!! Every successful team we have ever had, the overwhelming majority of successful teams at any level in any season in history - try to win most of their football matches. You can debate the aesthetics but the absolutely fundamental point here is that Nathan Jones teams are not trying to win football matches; his strategy is to try not to get beaten and HOPE. 

So people hate the style of play but more than anything else they hate it because he’s not even striving for the same goal as us; at least Garner was trying to set teams up to go out and win football matches. Jones is setting his teams up to run around aimlessly for 90 minutes then draw a high card against the opposing manager when the 4th official’s board appears!

Call me self entitled but in the 3rd tier against Shrewsbury, Stockport and sodding Stevenage I believe that it is reasonable to expect a management and a board who are determined to go out and WIN the football match.

You genuinely think about 30 professional football players, 5 coaches and a manager aren’t trying to win games? They’re taking a different approach to you or I but I don’t think you can say they aren’t attempting to win

Such a stupid literal comment.  

They want to win Fen, of course, but anyone can see the strategy is to first NOT LOSE , and then 2nd to hope a coin toss goes your way. 

If you are trying to WIN you go out and attack, keep the ball, play In their half, shoot. Thats how you get promoted. Jones’ way is how you scramble about to stay out of the bottom 4 because the other teams are better than you.

You can’t backtrack when someone reads your words back to you, maybe you didn’t mean them that way but it’s a written forum so that’s how they’ll come across. 

I don’t agree with your assessment either, the tactic is with the aim of winning it just isn’t working 

You know exactly what I mean , this is just pointlessly disputing exact words like you’re a politician for the sake of it. 

Go and win football matches with purpose.

Radostanradical said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

Radostanradical said:

Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:

Radostanradical said:

Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:

Radostanradical said:

The style of play argument against Jones for me is an odd one as we all know that if we were winning games most wouldnt complain if the football wasnt particularly attractive, after all I remember the football we played under Curbs with Bartlett (in the prem, pre Bent) up top wasnt too pretty either but most didnt care because of what we were achieving.

All that said is the results arent going our way and thats going to put extra emphasis on our style of play, winning ugly is acceptable but losing ugly isnt. For the style of play to be a defence for NJ we do actually have to win games. The next month is vital for him we need to be around play-offs come Jan to get the calibre of players we need in and get the board to part with cash. If we are going to be mid-table with very little prospect of play-offs we may as well let Jones see out the season with what he has (as long as we arent facing relegation) then decide in the summer whether we back jones with more resources or those resources should go to a new manager.

Also one thing i do see here i Jones getting stick for his "failure" at Southampton, in his defence i think Ancelotti, Ferguson, Clough et al would have struggled with that team. they were truly one of the worst in Prem history.

Well we did win Tuesday, but it hasn't stopped the style of play argument.
Why is it odd?
I would agree if we were consistently winning people would be more accepting of the style but I doubt it would be stop the criticism.
I don't accept your tenuous comparison with Curbs "Bartlett" era.
There is no comparison between this  perennial third division shit and Curbs making us competitive in the Premier League with comparatively inferior players to other PL sides

Because it was one win against a team with 8 points who are bottom of the league. 

I didnt compare, thats a strawman argument. So it's not tenuous and your point at the end is regarding curbishley is literally the point im making. 

You literally made a comparison. It's there in black and white ffs. No straw involved.
And yes, it was one win, but that doesn't invalidate my point that consistent wins would not stop the criticism dead. Might get a lot less, but not end completely
I'll resist the urge to reciprocate your spurious LOL

I dont think you understand what comparison is ? I mentioned that when we played poor football under Curbishley people didn't mind as long as we got results, Jones isn't getting results so its not a comparison ? 

Miriam-Webster dictionary definition of comparison - "the representing of one thing or person as similar to or like another"

I'm literally saying they are nothing like each other ? Now repeat that back to me so i know you understood it. 

Spurious ? Mate was the LOL fake ? please don't use words you don't understand. Just stick to your comfort zone and only use words you see in The Sun or back of cereal boxes.

Ouch, I don't want to get on the wrong side of you

I'm just like everyone else here just much more intelligent, richer, privately educated and much much more humble.

fenaddick said:

paulsturgess said:

fenaddick said:

paulsturgess said:

fenaddick said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Stig said:

Callumcafc said:

eaststandmike said:

Callumcafc said:

hezzla said:

I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh.  Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.

Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:

"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."

"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it.  It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."

Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division.  He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.  

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p2

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p3

Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.

If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.

It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.

Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.

Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.

I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.

You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…

People don’t care. If you win.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1

Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.

Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10

Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1

“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”



Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”. 

Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.

Repeat a question from before.

What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary. 

Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?

I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning. 

People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.

There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.


And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.

There is a huge point you are missing here when trying to justify Jones and the style, comparing it to other managers eg Garner etc etc

Ignore all the other bum flufferies - the fundamental point is that WE ARE NOT EVEN TRYING TO WIN GAMES!!! Every successful team we have ever had, the overwhelming majority of successful teams at any level in any season in history - try to win most of their football matches. You can debate the aesthetics but the absolutely fundamental point here is that Nathan Jones teams are not trying to win football matches; his strategy is to try not to get beaten and HOPE. 

So people hate the style of play but more than anything else they hate it because he’s not even striving for the same goal as us; at least Garner was trying to set teams up to go out and win football matches. Jones is setting his teams up to run around aimlessly for 90 minutes then draw a high card against the opposing manager when the 4th official’s board appears!

Call me self entitled but in the 3rd tier against Shrewsbury, Stockport and sodding Stevenage I believe that it is reasonable to expect a management and a board who are determined to go out and WIN the football match.

You genuinely think about 30 professional football players, 5 coaches and a manager aren’t trying to win games? They’re taking a different approach to you or I but I don’t think you can say they aren’t attempting to win

Such a stupid literal comment.  

They want to win Fen, of course, but anyone can see the strategy is to first NOT LOSE , and then 2nd to hope a coin toss goes your way. 

If you are trying to WIN you go out and attack, keep the ball, play In their half, shoot. Thats how you get promoted. Jones’ way is how you scramble about to stay out of the bottom 4 because the other teams are better than you.

You can’t backtrack when someone reads your words back to you, maybe you didn’t mean them that way but it’s a written forum so that’s how they’ll come across. 

I don’t agree with your assessment either, the tactic is with the aim of winning it just isn’t working 

You know exactly what I mean , this is just pointlessly disputing exact words like you’re a politician for the sake of it. 

Go and win football matches with purpose.

No I genuinely was questioning what you were saying otherwise I wouldn’t have bothered

Callumcafc said:

Stig said:

Callumcafc said:

paulsturgess said:

Callumcafc said:

Stig said:

Callumcafc said:

eaststandmike said:

Callumcafc said:

hezzla said:

I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh.  Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.

Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:

"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."

"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it.  It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."

Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division.  He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.  

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p2

https://gasroom.org/discussion/8648/bloomfield-out/p3

Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.

If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.

It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.

Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.

Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.

I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.

You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…

People don’t care. If you win.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1

Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.

Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10

Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.

https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1

“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”



Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”. 

Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.

Repeat a question from before.

What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary. 

Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?

I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning. 

People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.

There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.


And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.

1. I absolutely resent the accusation that I'm not being honest. I'm telling things how they are for me. I think they are the same for many for others too. I may be wrong about what others think, but there's no way on earth I'm not being honest; what I tell you about how I feel about this is exactly how it is.
2. You're right about us losing, I don't like it when we're not winning.
3. You're completely wrong about style of play. I hate this turgid boring football and I hate it regardless of whether we were winning or losing. Football is the beautiful game, I want to see its beauty. I do not wan't to spend my time being bored for ninety minutes and then jump for joy because we sneak a winner at the end of it. If it's all about results, then there's no point in watching because I can read the result afterwards and find out how many points we got. I go to football to be entertained. This side bores the crap out of me.

Are you telling me that if we were to win all 30 of our remaining games playing like we did at Burton or Shrewsbury and finish the season on 112 points, you’d still have complaints about the style of football?

If the answer is yes then fair enough, my argument / theory doesn’t apply to you.

But for 99.9% of fans, all their complaints about a style of play would disappear.