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I am going to say it!! Yes I am, Nathan Jones......................
Comments
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That’s because their strikers are far better than ours and are experienced in bullying teams , especially at home . They can also play a bit .fenaddick said:
I would say we're attempting to play in a similar style to Wrexham just not executing it well enough at allBraziliance said:
Yes cause to be in 3rd or 4th, it's very likely you are an exciting team to watch. No team is getting a good finish with the current playstyle, it's just a bizarre hypothetical imo, not being rude to you mate and sorry if it seems that way.fenaddick said:
Would be interesting to see where the tipping point is though. If we were doing enough to be in 3rd/4th but playing like this would the fans be happy? Under Garner a lot of the talk was "I don't care how we play as long as we get promoted, stop tip-tapping around".Braziliance said:Myself and many others spend a lot of money and time off work following this team and have invested in what our manager promised us at the start of the season, if it isn't being shown on the pitch, of course people are going to moan.
It's doubtful people would moan if we were winning 46/46 games this season and playing boring while doing so, but that's literally impossible. To be a team who gets promoted, you need to play attractive football in one art form, whether that's attacking, defense, or a mixture of both. We aren't doing any, and that's why people are having a moan, not strictly because of the results themselves.
All the current top4 play exciting football to an extent if you look at their styles. They all have an identity. Wycombe are your typical all round side, similar to Pompey and Plymouth, goals in the team and hard to beat. Birmingham play pure possession football creating a lot of chances, Wrexham are your hard working type playing off of momentum and togetherness, and Stockport a similar approach but with a bit more individual quality.
Compared to us, not exactly hard to beat, mentally fragile at times, don't create a lot, and don't score a lot. And to top if off, pretty much 0 momentum or buzz around the club.
The Burton stats are quite deceiving as they're truly just woeful and we played against ten men for half an hour, and most of our chances were crap. If you look at it collectively across the season as well, no real threat.
If we played like how we did vs Birmingham, Bolton and Stockport every game, I wouldn't complain, but the levels of commitment that make that playstyle viable just aren't there every game.
Would I take us playing like a budget Atletico? Yes, as that's an art form. What I can't stand is the in-between nonsense. If we can't be a great attacking team, then be an excellent defensive team who are exciting on the attack. That's the basicsWe just don’t have the players to do that and that’s been our problem for far too long . Recruitment1 -
Agreed, was just saying I don't think their fans are complaining about the style. Although Braz also makes good points as to why that's a different scenario to usBedsaddick said:
That’s because their strikers are far better than ours and are experienced in bullying teams , especially at home . They can also play a bit .fenaddick said:
I would say we're attempting to play in a similar style to Wrexham just not executing it well enough at allBraziliance said:
Yes cause to be in 3rd or 4th, it's very likely you are an exciting team to watch. No team is getting a good finish with the current playstyle, it's just a bizarre hypothetical imo, not being rude to you mate and sorry if it seems that way.fenaddick said:
Would be interesting to see where the tipping point is though. If we were doing enough to be in 3rd/4th but playing like this would the fans be happy? Under Garner a lot of the talk was "I don't care how we play as long as we get promoted, stop tip-tapping around".Braziliance said:Myself and many others spend a lot of money and time off work following this team and have invested in what our manager promised us at the start of the season, if it isn't being shown on the pitch, of course people are going to moan.
It's doubtful people would moan if we were winning 46/46 games this season and playing boring while doing so, but that's literally impossible. To be a team who gets promoted, you need to play attractive football in one art form, whether that's attacking, defense, or a mixture of both. We aren't doing any, and that's why people are having a moan, not strictly because of the results themselves.
All the current top4 play exciting football to an extent if you look at their styles. They all have an identity. Wycombe are your typical all round side, similar to Pompey and Plymouth, goals in the team and hard to beat. Birmingham play pure possession football creating a lot of chances, Wrexham are your hard working type playing off of momentum and togetherness, and Stockport a similar approach but with a bit more individual quality.
Compared to us, not exactly hard to beat, mentally fragile at times, don't create a lot, and don't score a lot. And to top if off, pretty much 0 momentum or buzz around the club.
The Burton stats are quite deceiving as they're truly just woeful and we played against ten men for half an hour, and most of our chances were crap. If you look at it collectively across the season as well, no real threat.
If we played like how we did vs Birmingham, Bolton and Stockport every game, I wouldn't complain, but the levels of commitment that make that playstyle viable just aren't there every game.
Would I take us playing like a budget Atletico? Yes, as that's an art form. What I can't stand is the in-between nonsense. If we can't be a great attacking team, then be an excellent defensive team who are exciting on the attack. That's the basicsWe just don’t have the players to do that and that’s been our problem for far too long . Recruitment2 -
What do you mean? You can't say he is doing a bad job, promoted last season and currently 2nd in the table.Braziliance said:fenaddick said:
I would say we're attempting to play in a similar style to Wrexham just not executing it well enough at allBraziliance said:
Yes cause to be in 3rd or 4th, it's very likely you are an exciting team to watch. No team is getting a good finish with the current playstyle, it's just a bizarre hypothetical imo, not being rude to you mate and sorry if it seems that way.fenaddick said:
Would be interesting to see where the tipping point is though. If we were doing enough to be in 3rd/4th but playing like this would the fans be happy? Under Garner a lot of the talk was "I don't care how we play as long as we get promoted, stop tip-tapping around".Braziliance said:Myself and many others spend a lot of money and time off work following this team and have invested in what our manager promised us at the start of the season, if it isn't being shown on the pitch, of course people are going to moan.
It's doubtful people would moan if we were winning 46/46 games this season and playing boring while doing so, but that's literally impossible. To be a team who gets promoted, you need to play attractive football in one art form, whether that's attacking, defense, or a mixture of both. We aren't doing any, and that's why people are having a moan, not strictly because of the results themselves.
All the current top4 play exciting football to an extent if you look at their styles. They all have an identity. Wycombe are your typical all round side, similar to Pompey and Plymouth, goals in the team and hard to beat. Birmingham play pure possession football creating a lot of chances, Wrexham are your hard working type playing off of momentum and togetherness, and Stockport a similar approach but with a bit more individual quality.
Compared to us, not exactly hard to beat, mentally fragile at times, don't create a lot, and don't score a lot. And to top if off, pretty much 0 momentum or buzz around the club.
The Burton stats are quite deceiving as they're truly just woeful and we played against ten men for half an hour, and most of our chances were crap. If you look at it collectively across the season as well, no real threat.
If we played like how we did vs Birmingham, Bolton and Stockport every game, I wouldn't complain, but the levels of commitment that make that playstyle viable just aren't there every game.
Would I take us playing like a budget Atletico? Yes, as that's an art form. What I can't stand is the in-between nonsense. If we can't be a great attacking team, then be an excellent defensive team who are exciting on the attack. That's the basics
It's all context, they have to play that way, as they've just been promoted and have a largely league 2 squad they'll need to upgrade. Not to mention a manager we should have outgrown a long time ago.0 -
Radostanradical said:
I dont think you understand what comparison is ? I mentioned that when we played poor football under Curbishley people didn't mind as long as we got results, Jones isn't getting results so its not a comparison ?Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
You literally made a comparison. It's there in black and white ffs. No straw involved.Radostanradical said:
Because it was one win against a team with 8 points who are bottom of the league.Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
Well we did win Tuesday, but it hasn't stopped the style of play argument.Radostanradical said:The style of play argument against Jones for me is an odd one as we all know that if we were winning games most wouldnt complain if the football wasnt particularly attractive, after all I remember the football we played under Curbs with Bartlett (in the prem, pre Bent) up top wasnt too pretty either but most didnt care because of what we were achieving.
All that said is the results arent going our way and thats going to put extra emphasis on our style of play, winning ugly is acceptable but losing ugly isnt. For the style of play to be a defence for NJ we do actually have to win games. The next month is vital for him we need to be around play-offs come Jan to get the calibre of players we need in and get the board to part with cash. If we are going to be mid-table with very little prospect of play-offs we may as well let Jones see out the season with what he has (as long as we arent facing relegation) then decide in the summer whether we back jones with more resources or those resources should go to a new manager.
Also one thing i do see here i Jones getting stick for his "failure" at Southampton, in his defence i think Ancelotti, Ferguson, Clough et al would have struggled with that team. they were truly one of the worst in Prem history.
Why is it odd?
I would agree if we were consistently winning people would be more accepting of the style but I doubt it would be stop the criticism.
I don't accept your tenuous comparison with Curbs "Bartlett" era.
There is no comparison between this perennial third division shit and Curbs making us competitive in the Premier League with comparatively inferior players to other PL sides
I didnt compare, thats a strawman argument. So it's not tenuous and your point at the end is regarding curbishley is literally the point im making.
And yes, it was one win, but that doesn't invalidate my point that consistent wins would not stop the criticism dead. Might get a lot less, but not end completely
I'll resist the urge to reciprocate your spurious LOL
Miriam-Webster dictionary definition of comparison - "the representing of one thing or person as similar to or like another"
I'm literally saying they are nothing like each other ? Now repeat that back to me so i know you understood it.
Spurious ? Mate was the LOL fake ? please don't use words you don't understand. Just stick to your comfort zone and only use words you see in The Sun or back of cereal boxes.
Ouch, I don't want to get on the wrong side of you
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Glad you are not being a snob. You should remember that whilst you may be travelling the length and breath of the country now you won't be doing it forever and a great, great many sitting at home now have done what you are doing now for years and years and for one reason or another have stopped. So we feel your pain but don't for one second think it doesn't hurt us as much as it hurts you.Braziliance said:I keep seeing the comments along the lines of ''if we were winning, no one would care'' on here and on twitter, and I have to take issue with that.
Not one person at Burton, or the majority of away games I've been to has said we played well etc that I interacted with. I'd actually say every single person I could hear or see around me at Burton was criticising how we played and when we did score, it was more just relief we got a result.
Not being a snob, and not attacking anyone's credentials as a Charlton fan or how much they attend, but it is a completely different feeling travelling for 7+ hours through the day and watching a poor performance, over sitting on the couch and spending a tenner on CharltonTV. I'm speaking from experience here. When I watched Huddersfield away the other week on the telly, I didn't feel anywhere near as disappointed as Reading away as a more recent example when we lost.
Ok I was disappointed Charlton lost, but it's a lot easier accepting s**t performances and bad results when you can just get off your couch and put on call of duty or Netflix etc.
If I spend 60-100 on petrol, 20+ on a ticket, every other weekend, I expect us to look like a team who has practiced and show ability.
I need to make it clear I'm not gate keeping, it's just the levels of disappointment just can't be the same when you're there, as opposed to watching from the comfort at home.8 -
I'm just like everyone else here just much more intelligent, richer, privately educated and much much more humble.ElfsborgAddick said:Radostanradical said:
I dont think you understand what comparison is ? I mentioned that when we played poor football under Curbishley people didn't mind as long as we got results, Jones isn't getting results so its not a comparison ?Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
You literally made a comparison. It's there in black and white ffs. No straw involved.Radostanradical said:
Because it was one win against a team with 8 points who are bottom of the league.Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
Well we did win Tuesday, but it hasn't stopped the style of play argument.Radostanradical said:The style of play argument against Jones for me is an odd one as we all know that if we were winning games most wouldnt complain if the football wasnt particularly attractive, after all I remember the football we played under Curbs with Bartlett (in the prem, pre Bent) up top wasnt too pretty either but most didnt care because of what we were achieving.
All that said is the results arent going our way and thats going to put extra emphasis on our style of play, winning ugly is acceptable but losing ugly isnt. For the style of play to be a defence for NJ we do actually have to win games. The next month is vital for him we need to be around play-offs come Jan to get the calibre of players we need in and get the board to part with cash. If we are going to be mid-table with very little prospect of play-offs we may as well let Jones see out the season with what he has (as long as we arent facing relegation) then decide in the summer whether we back jones with more resources or those resources should go to a new manager.
Also one thing i do see here i Jones getting stick for his "failure" at Southampton, in his defence i think Ancelotti, Ferguson, Clough et al would have struggled with that team. they were truly one of the worst in Prem history.
Why is it odd?
I would agree if we were consistently winning people would be more accepting of the style but I doubt it would be stop the criticism.
I don't accept your tenuous comparison with Curbs "Bartlett" era.
There is no comparison between this perennial third division shit and Curbs making us competitive in the Premier League with comparatively inferior players to other PL sides
I didnt compare, thats a strawman argument. So it's not tenuous and your point at the end is regarding curbishley is literally the point im making.
And yes, it was one win, but that doesn't invalidate my point that consistent wins would not stop the criticism dead. Might get a lot less, but not end completely
I'll resist the urge to reciprocate your spurious LOL
Miriam-Webster dictionary definition of comparison - "the representing of one thing or person as similar to or like another"
I'm literally saying they are nothing like each other ? Now repeat that back to me so i know you understood it.
Spurious ? Mate was the LOL fake ? please don't use words you don't understand. Just stick to your comfort zone and only use words you see in The Sun or back of cereal boxes.
Ouch, I don't want to get on the wrong side of you11 -
I prefer the Oxford definition of comparison:- "a consideration or estimate of the similarities or dissimilarities between two things or people".Radostanradical said:
I dont think you understand what comparison is ? I mentioned that when we played poor football under Curbishley people didn't mind as long as we got results, Jones isn't getting results so its not a comparison ?Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
You literally made a comparison. It's there in black and white ffs. No straw involved.Radostanradical said:
Because it was one win against a team with 8 points who are bottom of the league.Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
Well we did win Tuesday, but it hasn't stopped the style of play argument.Radostanradical said:The style of play argument against Jones for me is an odd one as we all know that if we were winning games most wouldnt complain if the football wasnt particularly attractive, after all I remember the football we played under Curbs with Bartlett (in the prem, pre Bent) up top wasnt too pretty either but most didnt care because of what we were achieving.
All that said is the results arent going our way and thats going to put extra emphasis on our style of play, winning ugly is acceptable but losing ugly isnt. For the style of play to be a defence for NJ we do actually have to win games. The next month is vital for him we need to be around play-offs come Jan to get the calibre of players we need in and get the board to part with cash. If we are going to be mid-table with very little prospect of play-offs we may as well let Jones see out the season with what he has (as long as we arent facing relegation) then decide in the summer whether we back jones with more resources or those resources should go to a new manager.
Also one thing i do see here i Jones getting stick for his "failure" at Southampton, in his defence i think Ancelotti, Ferguson, Clough et al would have struggled with that team. they were truly one of the worst in Prem history.
Why is it odd?
I would agree if we were consistently winning people would be more accepting of the style but I doubt it would be stop the criticism.
I don't accept your tenuous comparison with Curbs "Bartlett" era.
There is no comparison between this perennial third division shit and Curbs making us competitive in the Premier League with comparatively inferior players to other PL sides
I didnt compare, thats a strawman argument. So it's not tenuous and your point at the end is regarding curbishley is literally the point im making.
And yes, it was one win, but that doesn't invalidate my point that consistent wins would not stop the criticism dead. Might get a lot less, but not end completely
I'll resist the urge to reciprocate your spurious LOL
Miriam-Webster dictionary definition of comparison - "the representing of one thing or person as similar to or like another"
I'm literally saying they are nothing like each other ? Now repeat that back to me so i know you understood it.
Spurious ? Mate was the LOL fake ? please don't use words you don't understand. Just stick to your comfort zone and only use words you see in The Sun or back of cereal boxes.
Now go back and read your original paragraph.
Obnoxious twat4 -
But I wasn't listing similarities or dissimilarities was I ?Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
I prefer the Oxford definition of comparison:- "a consideration or estimate of the similarities or dissimilarities between two things or people".Radostanradical said:
I dont think you understand what comparison is ? I mentioned that when we played poor football under Curbishley people didn't mind as long as we got results, Jones isn't getting results so its not a comparison ?Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
You literally made a comparison. It's there in black and white ffs. No straw involved.Radostanradical said:
Because it was one win against a team with 8 points who are bottom of the league.Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
Well we did win Tuesday, but it hasn't stopped the style of play argument.Radostanradical said:The style of play argument against Jones for me is an odd one as we all know that if we were winning games most wouldnt complain if the football wasnt particularly attractive, after all I remember the football we played under Curbs with Bartlett (in the prem, pre Bent) up top wasnt too pretty either but most didnt care because of what we were achieving.
All that said is the results arent going our way and thats going to put extra emphasis on our style of play, winning ugly is acceptable but losing ugly isnt. For the style of play to be a defence for NJ we do actually have to win games. The next month is vital for him we need to be around play-offs come Jan to get the calibre of players we need in and get the board to part with cash. If we are going to be mid-table with very little prospect of play-offs we may as well let Jones see out the season with what he has (as long as we arent facing relegation) then decide in the summer whether we back jones with more resources or those resources should go to a new manager.
Also one thing i do see here i Jones getting stick for his "failure" at Southampton, in his defence i think Ancelotti, Ferguson, Clough et al would have struggled with that team. they were truly one of the worst in Prem history.
Why is it odd?
I would agree if we were consistently winning people would be more accepting of the style but I doubt it would be stop the criticism.
I don't accept your tenuous comparison with Curbs "Bartlett" era.
There is no comparison between this perennial third division shit and Curbs making us competitive in the Premier League with comparatively inferior players to other PL sides
I didnt compare, thats a strawman argument. So it's not tenuous and your point at the end is regarding curbishley is literally the point im making.
And yes, it was one win, but that doesn't invalidate my point that consistent wins would not stop the criticism dead. Might get a lot less, but not end completely
I'll resist the urge to reciprocate your spurious LOL
Miriam-Webster dictionary definition of comparison - "the representing of one thing or person as similar to or like another"
I'm literally saying they are nothing like each other ? Now repeat that back to me so i know you understood it.
Spurious ? Mate was the LOL fake ? please don't use words you don't understand. Just stick to your comfort zone and only use words you see in The Sun or back of cereal boxes.
Now go back and read your original paragraph.
Obnoxious twat
Maybe find an adult and have them read it back to you.
Word's always seem to fail those that swear, now be a good boy and don't touch the keyboard again until an adult gives you permission.7 -
Listing???Radostanradical said:
But I wasn't listing similarities or dissimilarities was I ?Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
I prefer the Oxford definition of comparison:- "a consideration or estimate of the similarities or dissimilarities between two things or people".Radostanradical said:
I dont think you understand what comparison is ? I mentioned that when we played poor football under Curbishley people didn't mind as long as we got results, Jones isn't getting results so its not a comparison ?Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
You literally made a comparison. It's there in black and white ffs. No straw involved.Radostanradical said:
Because it was one win against a team with 8 points who are bottom of the league.Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
Well we did win Tuesday, but it hasn't stopped the style of play argument.Radostanradical said:The style of play argument against Jones for me is an odd one as we all know that if we were winning games most wouldnt complain if the football wasnt particularly attractive, after all I remember the football we played under Curbs with Bartlett (in the prem, pre Bent) up top wasnt too pretty either but most didnt care because of what we were achieving.
All that said is the results arent going our way and thats going to put extra emphasis on our style of play, winning ugly is acceptable but losing ugly isnt. For the style of play to be a defence for NJ we do actually have to win games. The next month is vital for him we need to be around play-offs come Jan to get the calibre of players we need in and get the board to part with cash. If we are going to be mid-table with very little prospect of play-offs we may as well let Jones see out the season with what he has (as long as we arent facing relegation) then decide in the summer whether we back jones with more resources or those resources should go to a new manager.
Also one thing i do see here i Jones getting stick for his "failure" at Southampton, in his defence i think Ancelotti, Ferguson, Clough et al would have struggled with that team. they were truly one of the worst in Prem history.
Why is it odd?
I would agree if we were consistently winning people would be more accepting of the style but I doubt it would be stop the criticism.
I don't accept your tenuous comparison with Curbs "Bartlett" era.
There is no comparison between this perennial third division shit and Curbs making us competitive in the Premier League with comparatively inferior players to other PL sides
I didnt compare, thats a strawman argument. So it's not tenuous and your point at the end is regarding curbishley is literally the point im making.
And yes, it was one win, but that doesn't invalidate my point that consistent wins would not stop the criticism dead. Might get a lot less, but not end completely
I'll resist the urge to reciprocate your spurious LOL
Miriam-Webster dictionary definition of comparison - "the representing of one thing or person as similar to or like another"
I'm literally saying they are nothing like each other ? Now repeat that back to me so i know you understood it.
Spurious ? Mate was the LOL fake ? please don't use words you don't understand. Just stick to your comfort zone and only use words you see in The Sun or back of cereal boxes.
Now go back and read your original paragraph.
Obnoxious twat
Maybe find an adult and have them read it back to you.
Word's always seem to fail those that swear, now be a good boy and don't touch the keyboard again until an adult gives you permission.
Your patronising attempts to belittle are tiresome and I suspect like me people are beginning to see right through you.
People can read and make their own minds up, but continuing this serves no useful purpose2 -
Lots of comments about the good football Garner tried playing as a comparison to Jones style.
Garnerball involved our sub standard defenders knocking the ball aimlessly around the back tempting the opposition towards us before Famewo or one of the others tripped up, whilst passing it to the opposition and Wollacot then diving over the ball as it nestled in our net. It was a different style but similarly shit to watch.
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We aren’t playing the style well, but teams have been successful playing the way that Jones is trying to make us play. He’s clearly trying (and failing) to get us to be like his Luton championship team, that were successful playing this style. Other teams have been successful from league 1 playing attritional football, Wycombe under Ainsworth, Rotherham in previous years and Derby last season under Warne.Braziliance said:
No I actually don't know full well, because I can't understand how people keep saying ''if we were winning matches with this style you wouldn't care" as that's literally impossible, as no team ever had won anything with how we are playing.Radostanradical said:
Because they are bottom of the table and only have 8 points and it wasn't ugly we were terrible. You know full well that isn't the point people are making. The point is if we were consistently winning matches people wouldn't mind the the style of football that achieves results.Braziliance said:I keep seeing the comments along the lines of ''if we were winning, no one would care'' on here and on twitter, and I have to take issue with that.
Not one person at Burton, or the majority of away games I've been to has said we played well etc that I interacted with. I'd actually say every single person I could hear or see around me at Burton was criticising how we played and when we did score, it was more just relief we got a result.
Not being a snob, and not attacking anyone's credentials as a Charlton fan or how much they attend, but it is a completely different feeling travelling for 7+ hours through the day and watching a poor performance, over sitting on the couch and spending a tenner on CharltonTV. I'm speaking from experience here. When I watched Huddersfield away the other week on the telly, I didn't feel anywhere near as disappointed as Reading away as a more recent example when we lost.
Ok I was disappointed Charlton lost, but it's a lot easier accepting s**t performances and bad results when you can just get off your couch and put on call of duty or Netflix etc.
If I spend 60-100 on petrol, 20+ on a ticket, every other weekend, I expect us to look like a team who has practiced and show ability.
I need to make it clear I'm not gate keeping, it's just the levels of disappointment just can't be the same when you're there, as opposed to watching from the comfort at home.
If you went to any other sport and said right, play this s**t style, that doesn't entertain fans, and doesn't create enough chances on average to win what kind of reaction would you get?
There isn't a style, even our own manager alludes to that every other presser by saying "we aren't getting the basics right". If you can't get your team to function and do the simple stuff, how can there be a style.
No team has ever got promotion from this league playing this 'style' as it is simply not a style. It's a confused mixture of s**t. It's barely jack of all trades and absolutely master of none football.The issue isn’t the style, it’s that he isn’t able to get the players doing what he wants or the players not doing it well enough. Having 10+ players unavailable probably doesn’t help, as it’s impossible for the players to play at such a high intensity when we are down to the bare bones and playing Saturday/Tuesday
I think Jones needs to re-asses this January, it’s not working, so add a bit more quality and try and move a bit more towards his Luton league 2/league 1 teams that played much better football1 -
Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
Listing???Radostanradical said:
But I wasn't listing similarities or dissimilarities was I ?Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
I prefer the Oxford definition of comparison:- "a consideration or estimate of the similarities or dissimilarities between two things or people".Radostanradical said:
I dont think you understand what comparison is ? I mentioned that when we played poor football under Curbishley people didn't mind as long as we got results, Jones isn't getting results so its not a comparison ?Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
You literally made a comparison. It's there in black and white ffs. No straw involved.Radostanradical said:
Because it was one win against a team with 8 points who are bottom of the league.Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
Well we did win Tuesday, but it hasn't stopped the style of play argument.Radostanradical said:The style of play argument against Jones for me is an odd one as we all know that if we were winning games most wouldnt complain if the football wasnt particularly attractive, after all I remember the football we played under Curbs with Bartlett (in the prem, pre Bent) up top wasnt too pretty either but most didnt care because of what we were achieving.
All that said is the results arent going our way and thats going to put extra emphasis on our style of play, winning ugly is acceptable but losing ugly isnt. For the style of play to be a defence for NJ we do actually have to win games. The next month is vital for him we need to be around play-offs come Jan to get the calibre of players we need in and get the board to part with cash. If we are going to be mid-table with very little prospect of play-offs we may as well let Jones see out the season with what he has (as long as we arent facing relegation) then decide in the summer whether we back jones with more resources or those resources should go to a new manager.
Also one thing i do see here i Jones getting stick for his "failure" at Southampton, in his defence i think Ancelotti, Ferguson, Clough et al would have struggled with that team. they were truly one of the worst in Prem history.
Why is it odd?
I would agree if we were consistently winning people would be more accepting of the style but I doubt it would be stop the criticism.
I don't accept your tenuous comparison with Curbs "Bartlett" era.
There is no comparison between this perennial third division shit and Curbs making us competitive in the Premier League with comparatively inferior players to other PL sides
I didnt compare, thats a strawman argument. So it's not tenuous and your point at the end is regarding curbishley is literally the point im making.
And yes, it was one win, but that doesn't invalidate my point that consistent wins would not stop the criticism dead. Might get a lot less, but not end completely
I'll resist the urge to reciprocate your spurious LOL
Miriam-Webster dictionary definition of comparison - "the representing of one thing or person as similar to or like another"
I'm literally saying they are nothing like each other ? Now repeat that back to me so i know you understood it.
Spurious ? Mate was the LOL fake ? please don't use words you don't understand. Just stick to your comfort zone and only use words you see in The Sun or back of cereal boxes.
Now go back and read your original paragraph.
Obnoxious twat
Maybe find an adult and have them read it back to you.
Word's always seem to fail those that swear, now be a good boy and don't touch the keyboard again until an adult gives you permission.
Your patronising attempts to belittle are tiresome and I suspect like me people are beginning to see right through you.
People can read and make their own minds up, but continuing this serves no useful purposeNow now fellas, the weekend is here, relax and unwind.3 -
Here here, people going on like Garner had us playing like 2009 Barcelona but we couldn't quite get a win over the line, bar a couple of games we looked like we had very little idea how to break a side down under Garner and people were just as frustrated with the performances. Similarly to Jones, if we were executing this pressing style more effectively but coming out unlucky or being separated by fine margins, I doubt we'd be seeing the pessimism and frustration we're seeing as of late but ultimately a lot of our performances have been poor and beyond knocking it long we don't seem to have a consistent breakthrough method.Athletico Charlton said:Lots of comments about the good football Garner tried playing as a comparison to Jones style.
Garnerball involved our sub standard defenders knocking the ball aimlessly around the back tempting the opposition towards us before Famewo or one of the others tripped up, whilst passing it to the opposition and Wollacot then diving over the ball as it nestled in our net. It was a different style but similarly shit to watch.
For clarity, I do think it's been better generally under Jones than it ever was under Garner, but that really isn't saying much. Interesting how both managers were pretty wedded to one set of a player's from a particular club (Swindon & Luton, we signed less Swindon players but were arguably rumoured with more at the time)2 -
All the best mate, Just jokingSix-a-bag-of-nuts said:
Listing???Radostanradical said:
But I wasn't listing similarities or dissimilarities was I ?Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
I prefer the Oxford definition of comparison:- "a consideration or estimate of the similarities or dissimilarities between two things or people".Radostanradical said:
I dont think you understand what comparison is ? I mentioned that when we played poor football under Curbishley people didn't mind as long as we got results, Jones isn't getting results so its not a comparison ?Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
You literally made a comparison. It's there in black and white ffs. No straw involved.Radostanradical said:
Because it was one win against a team with 8 points who are bottom of the league.Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
Well we did win Tuesday, but it hasn't stopped the style of play argument.Radostanradical said:The style of play argument against Jones for me is an odd one as we all know that if we were winning games most wouldnt complain if the football wasnt particularly attractive, after all I remember the football we played under Curbs with Bartlett (in the prem, pre Bent) up top wasnt too pretty either but most didnt care because of what we were achieving.
All that said is the results arent going our way and thats going to put extra emphasis on our style of play, winning ugly is acceptable but losing ugly isnt. For the style of play to be a defence for NJ we do actually have to win games. The next month is vital for him we need to be around play-offs come Jan to get the calibre of players we need in and get the board to part with cash. If we are going to be mid-table with very little prospect of play-offs we may as well let Jones see out the season with what he has (as long as we arent facing relegation) then decide in the summer whether we back jones with more resources or those resources should go to a new manager.
Also one thing i do see here i Jones getting stick for his "failure" at Southampton, in his defence i think Ancelotti, Ferguson, Clough et al would have struggled with that team. they were truly one of the worst in Prem history.
Why is it odd?
I would agree if we were consistently winning people would be more accepting of the style but I doubt it would be stop the criticism.
I don't accept your tenuous comparison with Curbs "Bartlett" era.
There is no comparison between this perennial third division shit and Curbs making us competitive in the Premier League with comparatively inferior players to other PL sides
I didnt compare, thats a strawman argument. So it's not tenuous and your point at the end is regarding curbishley is literally the point im making.
And yes, it was one win, but that doesn't invalidate my point that consistent wins would not stop the criticism dead. Might get a lot less, but not end completely
I'll resist the urge to reciprocate your spurious LOL
Miriam-Webster dictionary definition of comparison - "the representing of one thing or person as similar to or like another"
I'm literally saying they are nothing like each other ? Now repeat that back to me so i know you understood it.
Spurious ? Mate was the LOL fake ? please don't use words you don't understand. Just stick to your comfort zone and only use words you see in The Sun or back of cereal boxes.
Now go back and read your original paragraph.
Obnoxious twat
Maybe find an adult and have them read it back to you.
Word's always seem to fail those that swear, now be a good boy and don't touch the keyboard again until an adult gives you permission.
Your patronising attempts to belittle are tiresome and I suspect like me people are beginning to see right through you.
People can read and make their own minds up, but continuing this serves no useful purpose
1 -
I agree with much of what you're saying, mate, but as someone who's done all the aways this season bar Exeter I felt most deflated after we lost to them. I find I get it all out of my system as it plays out in front of me when I'm there. Huddersfield was a 16 hour solo round trip with train chaos afterwards but I found it easier to handle than following Exeter on Sky's Soccer Saturday and hoping against hope we would win.Braziliance said:I keep seeing the comments along the lines of ''if we were winning, no one would care'' on here and on twitter, and I have to take issue with that.
Not one person at Burton, or the majority of away games I've been to has said we played well etc that I interacted with. I'd actually say every single person I could hear or see around me at Burton was criticising how we played and when we did score, it was more just relief we got a result.
Not being a snob, and not attacking anyone's credentials as a Charlton fan or how much they attend, but it is a completely different feeling travelling for 7+ hours through the day and watching a poor performance, over sitting on the couch and spending a tenner on CharltonTV. I'm speaking from experience here. When I watched Huddersfield away the other week on the telly, I didn't feel anywhere near as disappointed as Reading away as a more recent example when we lost.
Ok I was disappointed Charlton lost, but it's a lot easier accepting s**t performances and bad results when you can just get off your couch and put on call of duty or Netflix etc.
If I spend 60-100 on petrol, 20+ on a ticket, every other weekend, I expect us to look like a team who has practiced and show ability.
I need to make it clear I'm not gate keeping, it's just the levels of disappointment just can't be the same when you're there, as opposed to watching from the comfort at home.
I'm also happy to report (with thanks to the lads I met on one of the aborted trains from Huddersfield on Saturday) that through Delay Repay I've got a whopping £72 to come back to me from the delays afterwards.
But Braziliance you are quite right overall. I've seen us win 1 0 at Wigan, Shrewsbury and Burton and felt almost no joy from any of them. Wigan the exception as it was day one but it was bad. I can confidently say I've never failed to feel anything other than a huge buzz from an away win. It's one of the greatest feelings in football. Then those three games happened.5 -
We all feel the pain from the football being produced under NJ, as we are struggling to see the end game!
I think with NJ that it's a case of it's my ball, and if you don't like it tough, where as Ange Post the Spurs will want his team to produce good football at all odds as he believes they need to entertain the public!
Peterborough have been mentioned a few times for entertainment value and the folk who turn up and watch them get value for money and they certainly produce the players, all's we can do is hope the football will improve!
We have a problem where the current batch albeit the odd 2 or 3 know how to play the game! We've witnessed players who can't even take a throw-ins, we are just so poor at the basics.
I don't think flair is in the current dictionary of NJ, it's needs someone very close to him to kick in the 🥜 s for him calm down and hit the reset button, I have no doubt we will get behind him, because at present the football being played is down to him!
Let's get the chemistry back in the team, win, lose or draw we will always get behind the team. The bounce we had around the place with Bowyer was excellent, not always flavour of the month, but he got us in a good place before we got let down by certain individuals!
2 -
You know exactly what I mean , this is just pointlessly disputing exact words like you’re a politician for the sake of it.fenaddick said:
You can’t backtrack when someone reads your words back to you, maybe you didn’t mean them that way but it’s a written forum so that’s how they’ll come across.paulsturgess said:
Such a stupid literal comment.fenaddick said:
You genuinely think about 30 professional football players, 5 coaches and a manager aren’t trying to win games? They’re taking a different approach to you or I but I don’t think you can say they aren’t attempting to winpaulsturgess said:
There is a huge point you are missing here when trying to justify Jones and the style, comparing it to other managers eg Garner etc etcCallumcafc said:
I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning.paulsturgess said:
Repeat a question from before.Callumcafc said:
Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.Stig said:
Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.Callumcafc said:
You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…eaststandmike said:
I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.Callumcafc said:
Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.hezzla said:I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh. Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.
Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."
"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it. It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."
Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division. He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.
If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.
It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.
Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.
Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.
People don’t care. If you win.
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1
Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1
“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”
Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”.Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.
What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary.Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.
And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.
Ignore all the other bum flufferies - the fundamental point is that WE ARE NOT EVEN TRYING TO WIN GAMES!!! Every successful team we have ever had, the overwhelming majority of successful teams at any level in any season in history - try to win most of their football matches. You can debate the aesthetics but the absolutely fundamental point here is that Nathan Jones teams are not trying to win football matches; his strategy is to try not to get beaten and HOPE.So people hate the style of play but more than anything else they hate it because he’s not even striving for the same goal as us; at least Garner was trying to set teams up to go out and win football matches. Jones is setting his teams up to run around aimlessly for 90 minutes then draw a high card against the opposing manager when the 4th official’s board appears!Call me self entitled but in the 3rd tier against Shrewsbury, Stockport and sodding Stevenage I believe that it is reasonable to expect a management and a board who are determined to go out and WIN the football match.
They want to win Fen, of course, but anyone can see the strategy is to first NOT LOSE , and then 2nd to hope a coin toss goes your way.If you are trying to WIN you go out and attack, keep the ball, play In their half, shoot. Thats how you get promoted. Jones’ way is how you scramble about to stay out of the bottom 4 because the other teams are better than you.
I don’t agree with your assessment either, the tactic is with the aim of winning it just isn’t workingGo and win football matches with purpose.1 -
Are you telling me that if we were to win all 30 of our remaining games playing like we did at Burton or Shrewsbury and finish the season on 112 points, you’d still have complaints about the style of football?Stig said:
1. I absolutely resent the accusation that I'm not being honest. I'm telling things how they are for me. I think they are the same for many for others too. I may be wrong about what others think, but there's no way on earth I'm not being honest; what I tell you about how I feel about this is exactly how it is.Callumcafc said:
I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning.paulsturgess said:
Repeat a question from before.Callumcafc said:
Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.Stig said:
Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.Callumcafc said:
You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…eaststandmike said:
I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.Callumcafc said:
Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.hezzla said:I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh. Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.
Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."
"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it. It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."
Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division. He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.
If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.
It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.
Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.
Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.
People don’t care. If you win.
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1
Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1
“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”
Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”.Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.
What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary.Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.
And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.
2. You're right about us losing, I don't like it when we're not winning.
3. You're completely wrong about style of play. I hate this turgid boring football and I hate it regardless of whether we were winning or losing. Football is the beautiful game, I want to see its beauty. I do not wan't to spend my time being bored for ninety minutes and then jump for joy because we sneak a winner at the end of it. If it's all about results, then there's no point in watching because I can read the result afterwards and find out how many points we got. I go to football to be entertained. This side bores the crap out of me.
If the answer is yes then fair enough, my argument / theory doesn’t apply to you.
But for 99.9% of fans, all their complaints about a style of play would disappear.2 -
No I genuinely was questioning what you were saying otherwise I wouldn’t have botheredpaulsturgess said:
You know exactly what I mean , this is just pointlessly disputing exact words like you’re a politician for the sake of it.fenaddick said:
You can’t backtrack when someone reads your words back to you, maybe you didn’t mean them that way but it’s a written forum so that’s how they’ll come across.paulsturgess said:
Such a stupid literal comment.fenaddick said:
You genuinely think about 30 professional football players, 5 coaches and a manager aren’t trying to win games? They’re taking a different approach to you or I but I don’t think you can say they aren’t attempting to winpaulsturgess said:
There is a huge point you are missing here when trying to justify Jones and the style, comparing it to other managers eg Garner etc etcCallumcafc said:
I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning.paulsturgess said:
Repeat a question from before.Callumcafc said:
Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.Stig said:
Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.Callumcafc said:
You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…eaststandmike said:
I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.Callumcafc said:
Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.hezzla said:I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh. Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.
Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."
"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it. It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."
Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division. He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.
If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.
It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.
Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.
Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.
People don’t care. If you win.
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1
Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1
“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”
Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”.Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.
What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary.Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.
And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.
Ignore all the other bum flufferies - the fundamental point is that WE ARE NOT EVEN TRYING TO WIN GAMES!!! Every successful team we have ever had, the overwhelming majority of successful teams at any level in any season in history - try to win most of their football matches. You can debate the aesthetics but the absolutely fundamental point here is that Nathan Jones teams are not trying to win football matches; his strategy is to try not to get beaten and HOPE.So people hate the style of play but more than anything else they hate it because he’s not even striving for the same goal as us; at least Garner was trying to set teams up to go out and win football matches. Jones is setting his teams up to run around aimlessly for 90 minutes then draw a high card against the opposing manager when the 4th official’s board appears!Call me self entitled but in the 3rd tier against Shrewsbury, Stockport and sodding Stevenage I believe that it is reasonable to expect a management and a board who are determined to go out and WIN the football match.
They want to win Fen, of course, but anyone can see the strategy is to first NOT LOSE , and then 2nd to hope a coin toss goes your way.If you are trying to WIN you go out and attack, keep the ball, play In their half, shoot. Thats how you get promoted. Jones’ way is how you scramble about to stay out of the bottom 4 because the other teams are better than you.
I don’t agree with your assessment either, the tactic is with the aim of winning it just isn’t workingGo and win football matches with purpose.0 -
Oh, this guy is good!Radostanradical said:
But I wasn't listing similarities or dissimilarities was I ?Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
I prefer the Oxford definition of comparison:- "a consideration or estimate of the similarities or dissimilarities between two things or people".Radostanradical said:
I dont think you understand what comparison is ? I mentioned that when we played poor football under Curbishley people didn't mind as long as we got results, Jones isn't getting results so its not a comparison ?Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
You literally made a comparison. It's there in black and white ffs. No straw involved.Radostanradical said:
Because it was one win against a team with 8 points who are bottom of the league.Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
Well we did win Tuesday, but it hasn't stopped the style of play argument.Radostanradical said:The style of play argument against Jones for me is an odd one as we all know that if we were winning games most wouldnt complain if the football wasnt particularly attractive, after all I remember the football we played under Curbs with Bartlett (in the prem, pre Bent) up top wasnt too pretty either but most didnt care because of what we were achieving.
All that said is the results arent going our way and thats going to put extra emphasis on our style of play, winning ugly is acceptable but losing ugly isnt. For the style of play to be a defence for NJ we do actually have to win games. The next month is vital for him we need to be around play-offs come Jan to get the calibre of players we need in and get the board to part with cash. If we are going to be mid-table with very little prospect of play-offs we may as well let Jones see out the season with what he has (as long as we arent facing relegation) then decide in the summer whether we back jones with more resources or those resources should go to a new manager.
Also one thing i do see here i Jones getting stick for his "failure" at Southampton, in his defence i think Ancelotti, Ferguson, Clough et al would have struggled with that team. they were truly one of the worst in Prem history.
Why is it odd?
I would agree if we were consistently winning people would be more accepting of the style but I doubt it would be stop the criticism.
I don't accept your tenuous comparison with Curbs "Bartlett" era.
There is no comparison between this perennial third division shit and Curbs making us competitive in the Premier League with comparatively inferior players to other PL sides
I didnt compare, thats a strawman argument. So it's not tenuous and your point at the end is regarding curbishley is literally the point im making.
And yes, it was one win, but that doesn't invalidate my point that consistent wins would not stop the criticism dead. Might get a lot less, but not end completely
I'll resist the urge to reciprocate your spurious LOL
Miriam-Webster dictionary definition of comparison - "the representing of one thing or person as similar to or like another"
I'm literally saying they are nothing like each other ? Now repeat that back to me so i know you understood it.
Spurious ? Mate was the LOL fake ? please don't use words you don't understand. Just stick to your comfort zone and only use words you see in The Sun or back of cereal boxes.
Now go back and read your original paragraph.
Obnoxious twat
Maybe find an adult and have them read it back to you.
Word's always seem to fail those that swear, now be a good boy and don't touch the keyboard again until an adult gives you permission.
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Love it!Radostanradical said:
I'm just like everyone else here just much more intelligent, richer, privately educated and much much more humble.ElfsborgAddick said:Radostanradical said:
I dont think you understand what comparison is ? I mentioned that when we played poor football under Curbishley people didn't mind as long as we got results, Jones isn't getting results so its not a comparison ?Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
You literally made a comparison. It's there in black and white ffs. No straw involved.Radostanradical said:
Because it was one win against a team with 8 points who are bottom of the league.Six-a-bag-of-nuts said:
Well we did win Tuesday, but it hasn't stopped the style of play argument.Radostanradical said:The style of play argument against Jones for me is an odd one as we all know that if we were winning games most wouldnt complain if the football wasnt particularly attractive, after all I remember the football we played under Curbs with Bartlett (in the prem, pre Bent) up top wasnt too pretty either but most didnt care because of what we were achieving.
All that said is the results arent going our way and thats going to put extra emphasis on our style of play, winning ugly is acceptable but losing ugly isnt. For the style of play to be a defence for NJ we do actually have to win games. The next month is vital for him we need to be around play-offs come Jan to get the calibre of players we need in and get the board to part with cash. If we are going to be mid-table with very little prospect of play-offs we may as well let Jones see out the season with what he has (as long as we arent facing relegation) then decide in the summer whether we back jones with more resources or those resources should go to a new manager.
Also one thing i do see here i Jones getting stick for his "failure" at Southampton, in his defence i think Ancelotti, Ferguson, Clough et al would have struggled with that team. they were truly one of the worst in Prem history.
Why is it odd?
I would agree if we were consistently winning people would be more accepting of the style but I doubt it would be stop the criticism.
I don't accept your tenuous comparison with Curbs "Bartlett" era.
There is no comparison between this perennial third division shit and Curbs making us competitive in the Premier League with comparatively inferior players to other PL sides
I didnt compare, thats a strawman argument. So it's not tenuous and your point at the end is regarding curbishley is literally the point im making.
And yes, it was one win, but that doesn't invalidate my point that consistent wins would not stop the criticism dead. Might get a lot less, but not end completely
I'll resist the urge to reciprocate your spurious LOL
Miriam-Webster dictionary definition of comparison - "the representing of one thing or person as similar to or like another"
I'm literally saying they are nothing like each other ? Now repeat that back to me so i know you understood it.
Spurious ? Mate was the LOL fake ? please don't use words you don't understand. Just stick to your comfort zone and only use words you see in The Sun or back of cereal boxes.
Ouch, I don't want to get on the wrong side of you3 -
Callumcafc said:
Are you telling me that if we were to win all 30 of our remaining games playing like we did at Burton or Shrewsbury and finish the season on 112 points, you’d still have complaints about the style of football?Stig said:
1. I absolutely resent the accusation that I'm not being honest. I'm telling things how they are for me. I think they are the same for many for others too. I may be wrong about what others think, but there's no way on earth I'm not being honest; what I tell you about how I feel about this is exactly how it is.Callumcafc said:
I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning.paulsturgess said:
Repeat a question from before.Callumcafc said:
Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.Stig said:
Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.Callumcafc said:
You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…eaststandmike said:
I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.Callumcafc said:
Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.hezzla said:I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh. Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.
Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."
"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it. It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."
Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division. He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.
If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.
It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.
Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.
Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.
People don’t care. If you win.
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1
Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1
“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”
Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”.Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.
What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary.Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.
And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.
2. You're right about us losing, I don't like it when we're not winning.
3. You're completely wrong about style of play. I hate this turgid boring football and I hate it regardless of whether we were winning or losing. Football is the beautiful game, I want to see its beauty. I do not wan't to spend my time being bored for ninety minutes and then jump for joy because we sneak a winner at the end of it. If it's all about results, then there's no point in watching because I can read the result afterwards and find out how many points we got. I go to football to be entertained. This side bores the crap out of me.
If the answer is yes then fair enough, my argument / theory doesn’t apply to you.
But for 99.9% of fans, all their complaints about a style of play would disappear.This brilliant theory is a bit like debating whether I’d be comfortable celebrating if my grandma won Olympic 100m gold medal.Yeah sure, we’d raise a glass to the old girl, but also she’s dead and it’s not going to happen. The two things are fairly closely connected.9 -
Can only assume you're on a wind-up.fenaddick said:
No I genuinely was questioning what you were saying otherwise I wouldn’t have botheredpaulsturgess said:
You know exactly what I mean , this is just pointlessly disputing exact words like you’re a politician for the sake of it.fenaddick said:
You can’t backtrack when someone reads your words back to you, maybe you didn’t mean them that way but it’s a written forum so that’s how they’ll come across.paulsturgess said:
Such a stupid literal comment.fenaddick said:
You genuinely think about 30 professional football players, 5 coaches and a manager aren’t trying to win games? They’re taking a different approach to you or I but I don’t think you can say they aren’t attempting to winpaulsturgess said:
There is a huge point you are missing here when trying to justify Jones and the style, comparing it to other managers eg Garner etc etcCallumcafc said:
I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning.paulsturgess said:
Repeat a question from before.Callumcafc said:
Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.Stig said:
Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.Callumcafc said:
You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…eaststandmike said:
I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.Callumcafc said:
Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.hezzla said:I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh. Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.
Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."
"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it. It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."
Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division. He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.
If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.
It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.
Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.
Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.
People don’t care. If you win.
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1
Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1
“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”
Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”.Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.
What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary.Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.
And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.
Ignore all the other bum flufferies - the fundamental point is that WE ARE NOT EVEN TRYING TO WIN GAMES!!! Every successful team we have ever had, the overwhelming majority of successful teams at any level in any season in history - try to win most of their football matches. You can debate the aesthetics but the absolutely fundamental point here is that Nathan Jones teams are not trying to win football matches; his strategy is to try not to get beaten and HOPE.So people hate the style of play but more than anything else they hate it because he’s not even striving for the same goal as us; at least Garner was trying to set teams up to go out and win football matches. Jones is setting his teams up to run around aimlessly for 90 minutes then draw a high card against the opposing manager when the 4th official’s board appears!Call me self entitled but in the 3rd tier against Shrewsbury, Stockport and sodding Stevenage I believe that it is reasonable to expect a management and a board who are determined to go out and WIN the football match.
They want to win Fen, of course, but anyone can see the strategy is to first NOT LOSE , and then 2nd to hope a coin toss goes your way.If you are trying to WIN you go out and attack, keep the ball, play In their half, shoot. Thats how you get promoted. Jones’ way is how you scramble about to stay out of the bottom 4 because the other teams are better than you.
I don’t agree with your assessment either, the tactic is with the aim of winning it just isn’t workingGo and win football matches with purpose.
3 goals in the first half of 16 matches. You ain't trying to win mate - you're trying not to lose. 10 draws in that famous 14 unbeaten run last season.
Nathan Jones' number 1 priority and tactical approach is to try not to lose. Anything beyond that is a bonus not the no1 objective.
if you're trying to win a game every minute ticking by is a missed opportunity to try and get a goal not another minute successfully passed without conceding
This approach will not get you promoted.
Here's to league one stability!4 -
If we finished the season on 112 points I would be over the moon. But if we did that under the highly imaginative scenario that you've described, I'd have still been bored for 2700 minutes. So yes, I would have complaints about the style of the football, in just the same way that people complained their way through Tuesday night's match thread, but were glad to pick up three points at the end of the match.Callumcafc said:
Are you telling me that if we were to win all 30 of our remaining games playing like we did at Burton or Shrewsbury and finish the season on 112 points, you’d still have complaints about the style of football?Stig said:
1. I absolutely resent the accusation that I'm not being honest. I'm telling things how they are for me. I think they are the same for many for others too. I may be wrong about what others think, but there's no way on earth I'm not being honest; what I tell you about how I feel about this is exactly how it is.Callumcafc said:
I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning.paulsturgess said:
Repeat a question from before.Callumcafc said:
Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.Stig said:
Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.Callumcafc said:
You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…eaststandmike said:
I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.Callumcafc said:
Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.hezzla said:I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh. Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.
Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."
"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it. It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."
Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division. He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.
If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.
It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.
Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.
Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.
People don’t care. If you win.
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1
Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1
“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”
Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”.Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.
What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary.Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.
And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.
2. You're right about us losing, I don't like it when we're not winning.
3. You're completely wrong about style of play. I hate this turgid boring football and I hate it regardless of whether we were winning or losing. Football is the beautiful game, I want to see its beauty. I do not wan't to spend my time being bored for ninety minutes and then jump for joy because we sneak a winner at the end of it. If it's all about results, then there's no point in watching because I can read the result afterwards and find out how many points we got. I go to football to be entertained. This side bores the crap out of me.
If the answer is yes then fair enough, my argument / theory doesn’t apply to you.
But for 99.9% of fans, all their complaints about a style of play would disappear.
Bottom line is though, it ain't ever gonna happen.
10 -
Callum this is what I’m saying mate. take a step back and think about what you’re saying/ suggesting and what you’re actually trying to achieve here !Callumcafc said:
Are you telling me that if we were to win all 30 of our remaining games playing like we did at Burton or Shrewsbury and finish the season on 112 points, you’d still have complaints about the style of football?Stig said:
1. I absolutely resent the accusation that I'm not being honest. I'm telling things how they are for me. I think they are the same for many for others too. I may be wrong about what others think, but there's no way on earth I'm not being honest; what I tell you about how I feel about this is exactly how it is.Callumcafc said:
I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning.paulsturgess said:
Repeat a question from before.Callumcafc said:
Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.Stig said:
Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.Callumcafc said:
You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…eaststandmike said:
I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.Callumcafc said:
Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.hezzla said:I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh. Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.
Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."
"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it. It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."
Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division. He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.
If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.
It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.
Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.
Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.
People don’t care. If you win.
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1
Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1
“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”
Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”.Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.
What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary.Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.
And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.
2. You're right about us losing, I don't like it when we're not winning.
3. You're completely wrong about style of play. I hate this turgid boring football and I hate it regardless of whether we were winning or losing. Football is the beautiful game, I want to see its beauty. I do not wan't to spend my time being bored for ninety minutes and then jump for joy because we sneak a winner at the end of it. If it's all about results, then there's no point in watching because I can read the result afterwards and find out how many points we got. I go to football to be entertained. This side bores the crap out of me.
If the answer is yes then fair enough, my argument / theory doesn’t apply to you.
But for 99.9% of fans, all their complaints about a style of play would disappear.You’re literally just contradicting people for the sake of it, to the extent you’re now coming up with an utterly farcical fantasy to try and prove somethingYet when YOU suggested a bet and I proposed one simply that we wouldn’t succeed with the modest objective of just making the play offs, you didn’t even believe in that…
Only conclusion is therefore that you know that we are utter shite and going nowhere but you are just being contrary for the sake of it 🤷🏼♂️6 -
I’ll take a yes but.daveydanger said:Callumcafc said:
Are you telling me that if we were to win all 30 of our remaining games playing like we did at Burton or Shrewsbury and finish the season on 112 points, you’d still have complaints about the style of football?Stig said:
1. I absolutely resent the accusation that I'm not being honest. I'm telling things how they are for me. I think they are the same for many for others too. I may be wrong about what others think, but there's no way on earth I'm not being honest; what I tell you about how I feel about this is exactly how it is.Callumcafc said:
I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning.paulsturgess said:
Repeat a question from before.Callumcafc said:
Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.Stig said:
Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.Callumcafc said:
You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…eaststandmike said:
I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.Callumcafc said:
Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.hezzla said:I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh. Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.
Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."
"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it. It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."
Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division. He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.
If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.
It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.
Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.
Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.
People don’t care. If you win.
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1
Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1
“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”
Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”.Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.
What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary.Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.
And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.
2. You're right about us losing, I don't like it when we're not winning.
3. You're completely wrong about style of play. I hate this turgid boring football and I hate it regardless of whether we were winning or losing. Football is the beautiful game, I want to see its beauty. I do not wan't to spend my time being bored for ninety minutes and then jump for joy because we sneak a winner at the end of it. If it's all about results, then there's no point in watching because I can read the result afterwards and find out how many points we got. I go to football to be entertained. This side bores the crap out of me.
If the answer is yes then fair enough, my argument / theory doesn’t apply to you.
But for 99.9% of fans, all their complaints about a style of play would disappear.This brilliant theory is a bit like debating whether I’d be comfortable celebrating if my grandma won Olympic 100m gold medal.Yeah sure, we’d raise a glass to the old girl, but also she’s dead and it’s not going to happen. The two things are fairly closely connected.0 -
I’ll take a yes but x2Stig said:
If we finished the season on 112 points I would be over the moon. But if we did that under the highly imaginative scenario that you've described, I'd have still been bored for 2700 minutes. So yes, I would have complaints about the style of the football, in just the same way that people complained their way through Tuesday night's match thread, but were glad to pick up three points at the end of the match.Callumcafc said:
Are you telling me that if we were to win all 30 of our remaining games playing like we did at Burton or Shrewsbury and finish the season on 112 points, you’d still have complaints about the style of football?Stig said:
1. I absolutely resent the accusation that I'm not being honest. I'm telling things how they are for me. I think they are the same for many for others too. I may be wrong about what others think, but there's no way on earth I'm not being honest; what I tell you about how I feel about this is exactly how it is.Callumcafc said:
I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning.paulsturgess said:
Repeat a question from before.Callumcafc said:
Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.Stig said:
Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.Callumcafc said:
You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…eaststandmike said:
I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.Callumcafc said:
Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.hezzla said:I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh. Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.
Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."
"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it. It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."
Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division. He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.
If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.
It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.
Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.
Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.
People don’t care. If you win.
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1
Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1
“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”
Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”.Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.
What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary.Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.
And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.
2. You're right about us losing, I don't like it when we're not winning.
3. You're completely wrong about style of play. I hate this turgid boring football and I hate it regardless of whether we were winning or losing. Football is the beautiful game, I want to see its beauty. I do not wan't to spend my time being bored for ninety minutes and then jump for joy because we sneak a winner at the end of it. If it's all about results, then there's no point in watching because I can read the result afterwards and find out how many points we got. I go to football to be entertained. This side bores the crap out of me.
If the answer is yes then fair enough, my argument / theory doesn’t apply to you.
But for 99.9% of fans, all their complaints about a style of play would disappear.
Bottom line is though, it ain't ever gonna happen.1 -
Genuinely not trying to be a wind up - originally I only wanted to make a point about style of play vs results as an argument for sacking a manager. As I see it, it’s part of the psychology of being a football fan to convince yourself that the two are more closely linked than they actually are but I guess I offended people.paulsturgess said:
Callum this is what I’m saying mate. take a step back and think about what you’re saying/ suggesting and what you’re actually trying to achieve here !Callumcafc said:
Are you telling me that if we were to win all 30 of our remaining games playing like we did at Burton or Shrewsbury and finish the season on 112 points, you’d still have complaints about the style of football?Stig said:
1. I absolutely resent the accusation that I'm not being honest. I'm telling things how they are for me. I think they are the same for many for others too. I may be wrong about what others think, but there's no way on earth I'm not being honest; what I tell you about how I feel about this is exactly how it is.Callumcafc said:
I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning.paulsturgess said:
Repeat a question from before.Callumcafc said:
Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.Stig said:
Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.Callumcafc said:
You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…eaststandmike said:
I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.Callumcafc said:
Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.hezzla said:I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh. Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.
Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."
"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it. It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."
Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division. He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.
If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.
It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.
Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.
Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.
People don’t care. If you win.
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1
Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1
“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”
Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”.Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.
What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary.Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.
And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.
2. You're right about us losing, I don't like it when we're not winning.
3. You're completely wrong about style of play. I hate this turgid boring football and I hate it regardless of whether we were winning or losing. Football is the beautiful game, I want to see its beauty. I do not wan't to spend my time being bored for ninety minutes and then jump for joy because we sneak a winner at the end of it. If it's all about results, then there's no point in watching because I can read the result afterwards and find out how many points we got. I go to football to be entertained. This side bores the crap out of me.
If the answer is yes then fair enough, my argument / theory doesn’t apply to you.
But for 99.9% of fans, all their complaints about a style of play would disappear.You’re literally just contradicting people for the sake of it, to the extent you’re now coming up with an utterly farcical fantasy to try and prove somethingYet when YOU suggested a bet and I proposed one simply that we wouldn’t succeed with the modest objective of just making the play offs, you didn’t even believe in that…
Only conclusion is therefore that you know that we are utter shite and going nowhere but you are just being contrary for the sake of it 🤷🏼♂️
The football isn’t pretty but it’s really not that bad for the level we’re at either. That’s just the reality of our situation.
We’ve recently convinced ourselves it must be extra bad because we didn’t win any games for a few weeks. But performance wise, it wasn’t much, if any, worse than when we won three in a row to start the season and almost everyone thought we were on to something good.
11 -
I love you @Callumcafc. Don't ever change. xx2
-
And wanting the last word.paulsturgess said:
Callum this is what I’m saying mate. take a step back and think about what you’re saying/ suggesting and what you’re actually trying to achieve here !Callumcafc said:
Are you telling me that if we were to win all 30 of our remaining games playing like we did at Burton or Shrewsbury and finish the season on 112 points, you’d still have complaints about the style of football?Stig said:
1. I absolutely resent the accusation that I'm not being honest. I'm telling things how they are for me. I think they are the same for many for others too. I may be wrong about what others think, but there's no way on earth I'm not being honest; what I tell you about how I feel about this is exactly how it is.Callumcafc said:
I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning.paulsturgess said:
Repeat a question from before.Callumcafc said:
Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.Stig said:
Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.Callumcafc said:
You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…eaststandmike said:
I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.Callumcafc said:
Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.hezzla said:I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh. Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.
Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."
"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it. It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."
Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division. He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.
If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.
It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.
Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.
Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.
People don’t care. If you win.
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98453/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-bolton-wanderers-saturday-24th-august-2024-ko-15-00/p1
Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98413/match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p10
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/98415/post-match-thread-charlton-athletic-v-leyton-orient-saturday-17th-august-2024-ko-12-30/p1
“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”
Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”.Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.
What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary.Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.
And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.
2. You're right about us losing, I don't like it when we're not winning.
3. You're completely wrong about style of play. I hate this turgid boring football and I hate it regardless of whether we were winning or losing. Football is the beautiful game, I want to see its beauty. I do not wan't to spend my time being bored for ninety minutes and then jump for joy because we sneak a winner at the end of it. If it's all about results, then there's no point in watching because I can read the result afterwards and find out how many points we got. I go to football to be entertained. This side bores the crap out of me.
If the answer is yes then fair enough, my argument / theory doesn’t apply to you.
But for 99.9% of fans, all their complaints about a style of play would disappear.You’re literally just contradicting people for the sake of it, to the extent you’re now coming up with an utterly farcical fantasy to try and prove somethingYet when YOU suggested a bet and I proposed one simply that we wouldn’t succeed with the modest objective of just making the play offs, you didn’t even believe in that…
Only conclusion is therefore that you know that we are utter shite and going nowhere but you are just being contrary for the sake of it 🤷🏼♂️0
