Charge to use Blackwall Tunnel

Leroy Ambrose said:

Off_it said:

golfaddick said:

Radostanradical said:

golfaddick said:

stoneroses19 said:

golfaddick said:

fenlandaddick said:

Still can't believe there is a charge, bit of a scandal really considering the long history of the tunnel.

I don't mind paying a fee......we've been paying one on the Dartford crossing ever since it was built.

What I do mind is paying more for my journey than someone going in the opposite direction. In some parts of the world that is called secreterianlism and people have fought wars over it. 

You’ve peaked at complete nonsense here. 

Way over the top reaction comparing a difference in tunnel journey charges to sectarianism and war. You try too hard to get attention sometimes (and yes it’s worked as people have had to reply to your ridiculous analogy). 

So what is it then ?  What makes it right that I have to pay more at 9am to travel from Bromley to East Ham than a person in East Ham does to travel to Bromley ?

And it has nothing to do with "peak fares that commuters have always paid" as I'm not travelling into Central London.....merely travelling from South London to East London. 

Sometimes I winder if you are so dense light bends around you. It is to do with congestion and peak times, it doesnt have to be Central London. Can you not understand that peak times refers to when the volume of cars is at its greatest in a particular direction? What has central london got to do with anything? 😂

Where are all these vehicles going to from South of the river ?  With the Congestion Zone they cant all be going into Central London  ?  Are they all going through the Tunnel, along the A13 & stopping around Whitechapel  ?  And do people North of the river not travel through the Tunnel and along the A2 to Elephant & Castle ?

Perhaps there should be a charge for using the A13 & A2 that go into London, rather than a charge to simply get you across the river.  

Just to be clear, you're now advocating for more tolls?

I wish I could LOL. this more than once

Nobody else has mate, but I'll count yours as x1000 in my own mind. ;-)

Out of interest, does anyone know what happened to the Just Stop Oil freaks?
I guess all the old dears have passed on.
And the students have gotten jobs and have to fill there cars up with petrol on the way to work.
I'm on one today. 😈

cantersaddick said:

usetobunkin said:

All this talk about emissions does make me chuckle. First  we had VW and others playing fast and loose with emissions. Then when I worked for the DVSA we were tasked with finding Emulators, (Devices that overrode 
Emission warning lamps ) and engine remapping. 
We found loads, most fitted to FORS compliant trucks. It was embarrassing for the the Mayor of London /TFL and all the garbage spoken about air quality. (Some of the Monitoring Systems didn't record 24/7, some failed and the readings estimated, and the unit at Blackwall was fitted facing away from the traffic)
DVSA had a meeting with TFL at Palastra in Waterloo, and we were told to issue warning letters and desist from the detection of emissions cheats as it would  "Not be in the public interest to proceed" with Public Inquires and 
O Licence revocation. 

We say air quality has improved, I don't think so, when I look across London from my bedroom window I can see the blanket of pollution still hanging over London.

Lies, damn lies and statistics!

Yeah the bit in bold is just idiotic anti-intellectualism and shows a complete lack of basic understanding of research and the scientific method. 

To say nothing more than I don't believe multiple studies from world leading academic organisations like Imperial and King's or research bodies like the National Institute for Heath Research without actually looking into any detail is laughable. 

Visible haze isn't a reliable proxy for air quality though, and that's kind of the point. What you're seeing from a window is often weather-dependent (humidity, temperature inversions, light angle) and isn't the same thing as pollutant concentration. The improvements regulators track - PM2.5, NO2, etc - come from continuous monitoring stations measuring actual particle and gas levels, not visual impressions on a particular day.

Dismissing that data as "lies, damn lies and statistics" without engaging with the methodology is a classic move, but it's not actually a counterargument, it's a way of avoiding one. If you think the stats are wrong, the productive question is: which stations, which years, which pollutants, and what's the alternative explanation for the trend? Otherwise you're just substituting "what I can see today" for measurement, which is exactly the kind of anti-intellectual reflex that makes it harder to have honest conversations about real, remaining pollution problems (because London does still have them, particularly NO2 near major roads).

The quote "Lies, damned lies & statistics" is increasingly being used in this way by anti-intellectual arguments. Of course it again shows their ignorants as its a flagrant misuse. The quote is about the manipulation of statistics to tell a story. It is not a reason to write off the overwhelming body of scientific evidence if it doesn't agree with someone's worldview. It does not entitle someone to their own alternative "facts".

That's why we have official statistics regulated by a national statistics body, a national statistician, peer review processes and its why data professionals get paid what they do, understanding and communicating data is a skill. 

Agree, there is a particular sect of cretins whom use that quote to try and sound smart but fail obviously. As said before why would one bother trying to construct a coherent counter argument when you believe you can disprove modern climate data by quoting an authour whom died before airplanes were invented.

As for that particular part in bold, I did chuckle at the confidence one can say that with, like proclaiming flooding isnt an issue as its not raining right now.

Clearly their education was free, and they still over paid.

You don’t need to drink a whole glass of water to know that the water is contaminated.. 
We detected whole fleets of vehicles with emissions cheating, but of course as you say my experience is just a drop in the ocean. 

Only just realised that the Dartford Bridge/Tunnel is now £3.50 per trip. No North to South pricing structure here 

usetobunkin said:

cantersaddick said:

usetobunkin said:

All this talk about emissions does make me chuckle. First  we had VW and others playing fast and loose with emissions. Then when I worked for the DVSA we were tasked with finding Emulators, (Devices that overrode 
Emission warning lamps ) and engine remapping. 
We found loads, most fitted to FORS compliant trucks. It was embarrassing for the the Mayor of London /TFL and all the garbage spoken about air quality. (Some of the Monitoring Systems didn't record 24/7, some failed and the readings estimated, and the unit at Blackwall was fitted facing away from the traffic)
DVSA had a meeting with TFL at Palastra in Waterloo, and we were told to issue warning letters and desist from the detection of emissions cheats as it would  "Not be in the public interest to proceed" with Public Inquires and 
O Licence revocation. 

We say air quality has improved, I don't think so, when I look across London from my bedroom window I can see the blanket of pollution still hanging over London.

Lies, damn lies and statistics!

Yeah the bit in bold is just idiotic anti-intellectualism and shows a complete lack of basic understanding of research and the scientific method. 

To say nothing more than I don't believe multiple studies from world leading academic organisations like Imperial and King's or research bodies like the National Institute for Heath Research without actually looking into any detail is laughable. 

Visible haze isn't a reliable proxy for air quality though, and that's kind of the point. What you're seeing from a window is often weather-dependent (humidity, temperature inversions, light angle) and isn't the same thing as pollutant concentration. The improvements regulators track - PM2.5, NO2, etc - come from continuous monitoring stations measuring actual particle and gas levels, not visual impressions on a particular day.

Dismissing that data as "lies, damn lies and statistics" without engaging with the methodology is a classic move, but it's not actually a counterargument, it's a way of avoiding one. If you think the stats are wrong, the productive question is: which stations, which years, which pollutants, and what's the alternative explanation for the trend? Otherwise you're just substituting "what I can see today" for measurement, which is exactly the kind of anti-intellectual reflex that makes it harder to have honest conversations about real, remaining pollution problems (because London does still have them, particularly NO2 near major roads).

The quote "Lies, damned lies & statistics" is increasingly being used in this way by anti-intellectual arguments. Of course it again shows their ignorants as its a flagrant misuse. The quote is about the manipulation of statistics to tell a story. It is not a reason to write off the overwhelming body of scientific evidence if it doesn't agree with someone's worldview. It does not entitle someone to their own alternative "facts".

That's why we have official statistics regulated by a national statistics body, a national statistician, peer review processes and its why data professionals get paid what they do, understanding and communicating data is a skill. 

So what should the DVSA/ TFL have done with the operators who flouted the Emissions ?
They never got fed into "Official statistics " Because the result would have been too embarrassing to the powers that be. (FORS accredited fleets with them totally relying on cheat devices)
I was at the sharp end collecting the data. Roadside,  with all manor of scientific kit which largely didn't work.
Wouldn't communicate with the Engine/ Exhaust/Emissions ECUs etc, and in one case a exhaust opacity tester was run over by a  Westminster City council Advisor on Clean Air, the results for that day were to be noted as "within limits"

I also know of a local PSV Operator who claimed a grant to retrofit clean exhaust systems, and qualifiy for a generous tax rebate. 
What they did was purchase one system, then swap it to the next vehicle for test, the refit the original exhaust system . Despite our evidence TFL included this fleet as compliant at the end of year report.

A well known local tipper firm was accepted onto DVSA Earned Recognition scheme despite overwhelming evidence of emissions cheating.  FORS accredited. 

I appreciate your obvious passion, but I knew what happen at the roadside.  

Now the the METS CVU being disbanded, DVSA have 3 examiners to cover London and a commercial vehicle fleet of about 30k in London.

Thing is those flouting the regulations may get around it but on the production end - and obviously that is going to happen as some will always take the risk to make money. But the end position that the air quality in London has improved massively as a result of ULEZ doesn't change because of that. That is provable by the literally hundreds of air quality testing stations that are around London and even more that were set up temporarily for the studies. Pollution from those who flaut the regulations will still appear on those tests. And despite that levels have fallen dramatically since the introduction and expansion. Which means its been a success despite those who ignore the regs and shows they cannot be that large in number or the stations would pick them up. 

'Transport for London (TfL) was the most indebted local authority body in the UK last year, it has emerged'

Not surprised.

O-Randy-Hunt said:

'Transport for London (TfL) was the most indebted local authority body in the UK last year, it has emerged'

Not surprised.

Thats a bit of a misleading interpretation. 

TfL has the largest infrastructure portfolio to manage of any local authority body.

Despite this TfL has made an operating surplus for the last 3 years. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/tfl-gla-local-authority-debt-list-borrowing-b1289858.html

They have taken on debt to fund some massive infastructure projects to improve and modernise the transport network it manages. This is borrowing against future income to fund these. Same as for example you or I getting a mortgage to buy a house. The projects this is funding include, upgrading underground stations including air-con and air filtering, accessibility improvements, upgrading signalling and new rolling stock on the DLR and Piccadilly Line.

Thats exactly what debt should be for. The operating surplus suggests this debt is affordable. 

O-Randy-Hunt said:

'Transport for London (TfL) was the most indebted local authority body in the UK last year, it has emerged'

Not surprised.

because TfL balance sheet include the loan taken out to build the Elizabeth line, so not really surprising, unless you're dragging your knuckles on xitter

redman said:

As he said not surprised.. So why do have to be so condescending 

That's our rothko for you 🤣 angry man. 

Fortune 82nd Minute said:

I usually avoid getting into discussions like this on here like the plague but as someone who has spent his life working in the transport field, TfL is like a red flag to a bull to me!

TfL is without doubt the last dinosaur in the public sector. It is hopelessly over-manned and the salaries paid are ludicrously sky high. It is long overdue to be modernised. Indeed, anyone could go in there and cut costs by 30% without affecting its running.

Don't believe me? Well here's a few facts.

The number of TfL workers earning a basic salary of more than £100,000 increased by more than 15% in the last financial year. Data published in TfL's latest remuneration report shows the number of staff with a six-figure basic salary climbed from 536 to 617 over the past year. (In 2016, TfL had just 188 employees on a base salary of more than £100,000).

But its even worse than that. The report reveals that a total of 2,048 TfL staff received more than £100,000 once bonuses and overtime were included!

What on earth are all these people doing to deserve such salaries?

TfL still has a final salary pension scheme. The only other part of the public sector that I know of that still has such a scheme is the MP's scheme! If you are aged 60 or more when you leave your pension is payable immediately with no reduction for early payment. Try finding that sort of pension in the private sector.

Then there's the free travel for a TfL employee and a nominated partner/family member on the TfL network. That can easily be worth a couple of thousand pounds per year. Why on earth should a partner or family member get free travel?

And then let's not forget our good friends the tube drivers. The latest pay award means they will be on a base salary of nearly £80,000 a year next April. That is twice what a teacher, nurse or policeman earns. It is obscene.

I could go on. And on.

Suffice to say all the above is one of the reasons why you are paying ever higher fares and charges on London's tubes and roads.

I'm not doubting any of that is true. I'm sure it is. I am questioning why its relevant though? the conversation was about TfL's debt position and that it was for infrastructure investment and that they are running an operating surplus. They must be doing well if they are paying all that and still running an operating surplus for the last 3 years. The toll on blackwall (and silvertown) was a condition of the loan from central government to pay for the silvertown tunell to be built. I suspect the increases in tolls are being driven by that same agreement. 

A lot of what you say above feels very "crabs in a bucket" mentality. Worker compensation has fallen a long way behind productivity with a very clear decoupling in 2008 (after previous gradual widening since the 80's). Its no coincidence that the workers who are most organised and unionised manage to negotiate the best compensation and benefits. Just because the rest of us dont have the same negotiating power due to union busting over the last 40 odd years doesn't mean they are wrong for seeking to be paid a fair wage. Average pay has massively fallen behind in real terms over 40 years now. You have highlighted one area where its fallen slightly less behind inflation than the rest of the economy. Instead of thinking what can we learn from that to ensure fairer pay for everyone you seek to pull them down to the lowest common denominator. I believe we should be looking to them as an example of how to achieve fair pay. I just dont understand how people can look at someone else doing well (despite real terms pay cuts over quite a long period) and think so negatively about that. We should be building each other up not pitting worker against worker. Fair to criticise effectiveness of the organisation or the workers but I think to blanket attack pay is very strange.

As for tube drivers, with the huge amount of research into air quality on the tube and the health impacts of spending a lot of time on the tube I think they are grossly underpaid given we are expecting them to take years if not decades off their life for a job. Its frankly criminal the conditions we expect them to work in.

There are literally thousands of study's this one is scary:https://www.cam.ac.uk/stories/london-underground-pollution
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/252000/largest-study-explores-impact-dust-tube/ there is the famous UCL one - "20 mins on the Northern line is as bad as smoking a cigarette" 

cantersaddick said:

Fortune 82nd Minute said:

I usually avoid getting into discussions like this on here like the plague but as someone who has spent his life working in the transport field, TfL is like a red flag to a bull to me!

TfL is without doubt the last dinosaur in the public sector. It is hopelessly over-manned and the salaries paid are ludicrously sky high. It is long overdue to be modernised. Indeed, anyone could go in there and cut costs by 30% without affecting its running.

Don't believe me? Well here's a few facts.

The number of TfL workers earning a basic salary of more than £100,000 increased by more than 15% in the last financial year. Data published in TfL's latest remuneration report shows the number of staff with a six-figure basic salary climbed from 536 to 617 over the past year. (In 2016, TfL had just 188 employees on a base salary of more than £100,000).

But its even worse than that. The report reveals that a total of 2,048 TfL staff received more than £100,000 once bonuses and overtime were included!

What on earth are all these people doing to deserve such salaries?

TfL still has a final salary pension scheme. The only other part of the public sector that I know of that still has such a scheme is the MP's scheme! If you are aged 60 or more when you leave your pension is payable immediately with no reduction for early payment. Try finding that sort of pension in the private sector.

Then there's the free travel for a TfL employee and a nominated partner/family member on the TfL network. That can easily be worth a couple of thousand pounds per year. Why on earth should a partner or family member get free travel?

And then let's not forget our good friends the tube drivers. The latest pay award means they will be on a base salary of nearly £80,000 a year next April. That is twice what a teacher, nurse or policeman earns. It is obscene.

I could go on. And on.

Suffice to say all the above is one of the reasons why you are paying ever higher fares and charges on London's tubes and roads.

I'm not doubting any of that is true. I'm sure it is. I am questioning why its relevant though? the conversation was about TfL's debt position and that it was for infrastructure investment and that they are running an operating surplus. They must be doing well if they are paying all that and still running an operating surplus for the last 3 years. The toll on blackwall (and silvertown) was a condition of the loan from central government to pay for the silvertown tunell to be built. I suspect the increases in tolls are being driven by that same agreement. 

A lot of what you say above feels very "crabs in a bucket" mentality. Worker compensation has fallen a long way behind productivity with a very clear decoupling in 2008 (after previous gradual widening since the 80's). Its no coincidence that the workers who are most organised and unionised manage to negotiate the best compensation and benefits. Just because the rest of us dont have the same negotiating power due to union busting over the last 40 odd years doesn't mean they are wrong for seeking to be paid a fair wage. Average pay has massively fallen behind in real terms over 40 years now. You have highlighted one area where its fallen slightly less behind inflation than the rest of the economy. Instead of thinking what can we learn from that to ensure fairer pay for everyone you seek to pull them down to the lowest common denominator. I believe we should be looking to them as an example of how to achieve fair pay. I just dont understand how people can look at someone else doing well (despite real terms pay cuts over quite a long period) and think so negatively about that. We should be building each other up not pitting worker against worker. Fair to criticise effectiveness of the organisation or the workers but I think to blanket attack pay is very strange.

As for tube drivers, with the huge amount of research into air quality on the tube and the health impacts of spending a lot of time on the tube I think they are grossly underpaid given we are expecting them to take years if not decades off their life for a job. Its frankly criminal the conditions we expect them to work in.

There are literally thousands of study's this one is scary:https://www.cam.ac.uk/stories/london-underground-pollution
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/252000/largest-study-explores-impact-dust-tube/ there is the famous UCL one - "20 mins on the Northern line is as bad as smoking a cigarette" 

You are aware that conditions in the drivers cab are better than for commuters I assume?

I don’t disagree with your opening statement that they shouldn’t be criticised for being organised and maintaining their relative position but to say they are ‘grossly’ underpaid is wide of the mark. 

Fortune 82nd Minute said:

CaptainRobbo said:

jose said:

I have credit on the Dartford charge just in case I find myself using that crossing.
I wish there was a single simplified system to cover it all, ULEZ, congestion, and river crossings. As well as the totally incomprehensible nationwide car parking systems, and for any fines.
If there were such a system I would scrape together something like £50 credit to avoid stress when interacting with those systems.
In the face of all this nerd generated malarkey I wish we could get back to simple and straightforward cash.
Sadiq Khant has done a good job as Mayor, he has been elected three times. I live around the corner from the late Ella Adoo Kissi Debra hard by the South Circular, and the death of the poor girl has led to cleaner air round my way thanks to the action of Khan and his team.

Sometimes you wish you could LOL a post multiple times. 
Vladimir Putin keeps getting elected too.

Do you know I'm beginning to wonder if there is anything in the rumour that this guy is the former @SethPlum who was thrown off this site.

That was the sort of stuff he used to come out with all the time.

I think you've already answered your own question. 

Fortune 82nd Minute said:

CaptainRobbo said:

jose said:

I have credit on the Dartford charge just in case I find myself using that crossing.
I wish there was a single simplified system to cover it all, ULEZ, congestion, and river crossings. As well as the totally incomprehensible nationwide car parking systems, and for any fines.
If there were such a system I would scrape together something like £50 credit to avoid stress when interacting with those systems.
In the face of all this nerd generated malarkey I wish we could get back to simple and straightforward cash.
Sadiq Khant has done a good job as Mayor, he has been elected three times. I live around the corner from the late Ella Adoo Kissi Debra hard by the South Circular, and the death of the poor girl has led to cleaner air round my way thanks to the action of Khan and his team.

Sometimes you wish you could LOL a post multiple times. 
Vladimir Putin keeps getting elected too.

Do you know I'm beginning to wonder if there is anything in the rumour that this guy is the former @SethPlum who was thrown off this site.

That was the sort of stuff he used to come out with all the time.

Might go some way to explain his fear of identity theft when proving his age to renew his season ticket as a pensioner 😉😆

sam3110 said:

The fact Seth thinks Khan is great is justifying my dislike of him even more

Dislike of Seth or Khant?