Charge to use Blackwall Tunnel

Fortune 82nd Minute said:

CaptainRobbo said:

jose said:

I have credit on the Dartford charge just in case I find myself using that crossing.
I wish there was a single simplified system to cover it all, ULEZ, congestion, and river crossings. As well as the totally incomprehensible nationwide car parking systems, and for any fines.
If there were such a system I would scrape together something like £50 credit to avoid stress when interacting with those systems.
In the face of all this nerd generated malarkey I wish we could get back to simple and straightforward cash.
Sadiq Khant has done a good job as Mayor, he has been elected three times. I live around the corner from the late Ella Adoo Kissi Debra hard by the South Circular, and the death of the poor girl has led to cleaner air round my way thanks to the action of Khan and his team.

Sometimes you wish you could LOL a post multiple times. 
Vladimir Putin keeps getting elected too.

Do you know I'm beginning to wonder if there is anything in the rumour that this guy is the former @SethPlum who was thrown off this site.

That was the sort of stuff he used to come out with all the time.

cantersaddick said:

iainment said:

Valianterith said:

valleynick66 said:

Not too long for a new mayor I suppose. 

I doubt however we will see the tariffs change much. 

Depends if Khan jacks it in or he has reached the limit of terms he can do had a chance to get rid of him last time when everyone was moaning about ulaz but he still got in

Not everyone moaned about ULEZ. A significant number welcomed it.

And it's been a pretty big success. I know off topic but indulge me (or ignore!)

The evaluations of it have shown massive air quality improvements and huge public health benefits. Equalities assessments have shown that the majority of the costs are paid by upper middle class people whilst the people with the largest health benefits have been more deprived and lower socio-economic groups.

This study released in the last couple of months has majored on the positive health impacts. 


https://www.london.gov.uk/programmes-strategies/environment-and-climate-change/environment-and-climate-change-publications/london-wide-ultra-low-emission-zone-one-year-report

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/articles/2026/londons-ulez-and-t-charge-linked-to-reductions-in-emergency-hospital-admissions/

https://www.adph.org.uk/networks/london/2025/03/07/london-wide-ultra-low-emission-zone-ulez-one-year-report/

cantersaddick said:

iainment said:

Valianterith said:

valleynick66 said:

Not too long for a new mayor I suppose. 

I doubt however we will see the tariffs change much. 

Depends if Khan jacks it in or he has reached the limit of terms he can do had a chance to get rid of him last time when everyone was moaning about ulaz but he still got in

Not everyone moaned about ULEZ. A significant number welcomed it.

And it's been a pretty big success. I know off topic but indulge me (or ignore!)

The evaluations of it have shown massive air quality improvements and huge public health benefits. Equalities assessments have shown that the majority of the costs are paid by upper middle class people whilst the people with the largest health benefits have been more deprived and lower socio-economic groups.

This study released in the last couple of months has majored on the positive health impacts. 


https://www.london.gov.uk/programmes-strategies/environment-and-climate-change/environment-and-climate-change-publications/london-wide-ultra-low-emission-zone-one-year-report

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/articles/2026/londons-ulez-and-t-charge-linked-to-reductions-in-emergency-hospital-admissions/

https://www.adph.org.uk/networks/london/2025/03/07/london-wide-ultra-low-emission-zone-ulez-one-year-report/

valleynick66 said:

cantersaddick said:

valleynick66 said:

cantersaddick said:

Fortune 82nd Minute said:

I usually avoid getting into discussions like this on here like the plague but as someone who has spent his life working in the transport field, TfL is like a red flag to a bull to me!

TfL is without doubt the last dinosaur in the public sector. It is hopelessly over-manned and the salaries paid are ludicrously sky high. It is long overdue to be modernised. Indeed, anyone could go in there and cut costs by 30% without affecting its running.

Don't believe me? Well here's a few facts.

The number of TfL workers earning a basic salary of more than £100,000 increased by more than 15% in the last financial year. Data published in TfL's latest remuneration report shows the number of staff with a six-figure basic salary climbed from 536 to 617 over the past year. (In 2016, TfL had just 188 employees on a base salary of more than £100,000).

But its even worse than that. The report reveals that a total of 2,048 TfL staff received more than £100,000 once bonuses and overtime were included!

What on earth are all these people doing to deserve such salaries?

TfL still has a final salary pension scheme. The only other part of the public sector that I know of that still has such a scheme is the MP's scheme! If you are aged 60 or more when you leave your pension is payable immediately with no reduction for early payment. Try finding that sort of pension in the private sector.

Then there's the free travel for a TfL employee and a nominated partner/family member on the TfL network. That can easily be worth a couple of thousand pounds per year. Why on earth should a partner or family member get free travel?

And then let's not forget our good friends the tube drivers. The latest pay award means they will be on a base salary of nearly £80,000 a year next April. That is twice what a teacher, nurse or policeman earns. It is obscene.

I could go on. And on.

Suffice to say all the above is one of the reasons why you are paying ever higher fares and charges on London's tubes and roads.

I'm not doubting any of that is true. I'm sure it is. I am questioning why its relevant though? the conversation was about TfL's debt position and that it was for infrastructure investment and that they are running an operating surplus. They must be doing well if they are paying all that and still running an operating surplus for the last 3 years. The toll on blackwall (and silvertown) was a condition of the loan from central government to pay for the silvertown tunell to be built. I suspect the increases in tolls are being driven by that same agreement. 

A lot of what you say above feels very "crabs in a bucket" mentality. Worker compensation has fallen a long way behind productivity with a very clear decoupling in 2008 (after previous gradual widening since the 80's). Its no coincidence that the workers who are most organised and unionised manage to negotiate the best compensation and benefits. Just because the rest of us dont have the same negotiating power due to union busting over the last 40 odd years doesn't mean they are wrong for seeking to be paid a fair wage. Average pay has massively fallen behind in real terms over 40 years now. You have highlighted one area where its fallen slightly less behind inflation than the rest of the economy. Instead of thinking what can we learn from that to ensure fairer pay for everyone you seek to pull them down to the lowest common denominator. I believe we should be looking to them as an example of how to achieve fair pay. I just dont understand how people can look at someone else doing well (despite real terms pay cuts over quite a long period) and think so negatively about that. We should be building each other up not pitting worker against worker. Fair to criticise effectiveness of the organisation or the workers but I think to blanket attack pay is very strange.

As for tube drivers, with the huge amount of research into air quality on the tube and the health impacts of spending a lot of time on the tube I think they are grossly underpaid given we are expecting them to take years if not decades off their life for a job. Its frankly criminal the conditions we expect them to work in.

There are literally thousands of study's this one is scary:https://www.cam.ac.uk/stories/london-underground-pollution
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/252000/largest-study-explores-impact-dust-tube/ there is the famous UCL one - "20 mins on the Northern line is as bad as smoking a cigarette" 

You are aware that conditions in the drivers cab are better than for commuters I assume?

I don’t disagree with your opening statement that they shouldn’t be criticised for being organised and maintaining their relative position but to say they are ‘grossly’ underpaid is wide of the mark. 

You are aware the air quality is the same in the cab I assume? And if you'd read my post you'd know that air quality is the key factor in taking years off their lives. 

Would you do a job that you know takes years off your life for less pay than that? I certainly wouldn't. 

I stand by my statement that they are grossly under paid. Same goes for any job with large risk or health impact e.g. those who work on decommissioning nuclear power plants whose risk of cancer is massively increased. They should be massivelt compensated too.It's a personal value of mine that if people are doing a job that is slowly killing them then they should be massively compensated for that.

Yes I looked at the links you shared. 

This line amongst others stood out:

However, the researchers stress that the findings do not provide enough evidence to establish that exposure to PM2.5 directly leads to sickness absence, and that more research is needed to confirm these potential links.


This doesn’t appear to support your claim
Tube drivers have shorter life expectancy.  

The job of course has some negative features but positive ones too and like us all they accept the role knowing the reward structure. 

I stand by my assertion they are not ‘grossly’ underpaid. 

If you truly believe that what figure do you think is fair? And I assume you would extend to all staff in the station environment even though those staff are not paid the same as drivers. 

You were right to challenge me on air quality as I worded my point badly. I was trying to highlight the cab does have some features designed to offset / protect to some degree ie they aren’t abandoned without any consideration of the working environment (versus the experience for a commuter and which we may in our mind compare to). 

"The research, led by Imperial College London, found that staff who worked in areas with higher levels of fine dust – called particulate matter (PM2.5) – also tended to report more episodes of sickness absence.However, the researchers stress that the findings do not provide enough evidence to establish that exposure to PM2.5 directly leads to sickness absence, and that more research is needed to confirm these potential links."

Sickness absence is absolutely not an indicator of the long term health impacts which is what I was referring to. As i said there is a massive body of evidence - I just selected the first couple of research papers from a journal search. Here are some more that are more focused on the long term health impacts of PM2.5 particles.

https://www.stateofglobalair.org/health/pm
Health effects attributable to long-term exposure to PM2.5 include ischemic heart disease, lung cancer, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), lower-respiratory infections (such as pneumonia), stroke, type 2 diabetes, and adverse birth outcomes

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666765724001212

• premature death in people with heart or lung disease
• nonfatal heart attacks
• irregular heartbeat
• aggravated asthma
• decreased lung function
• increased respiratory symptoms, such as irritation of the airways, coughing or difficulty breathing.

cantersaddick said:

valleynick66 said:

cantersaddick said:

valleynick66 said:

cantersaddick said:

Fortune 82nd Minute said:

I usually avoid getting into discussions like this on here like the plague but as someone who has spent his life working in the transport field, TfL is like a red flag to a bull to me!

TfL is without doubt the last dinosaur in the public sector. It is hopelessly over-manned and the salaries paid are ludicrously sky high. It is long overdue to be modernised. Indeed, anyone could go in there and cut costs by 30% without affecting its running.

Don't believe me? Well here's a few facts.

The number of TfL workers earning a basic salary of more than £100,000 increased by more than 15% in the last financial year. Data published in TfL's latest remuneration report shows the number of staff with a six-figure basic salary climbed from 536 to 617 over the past year. (In 2016, TfL had just 188 employees on a base salary of more than £100,000).

But its even worse than that. The report reveals that a total of 2,048 TfL staff received more than £100,000 once bonuses and overtime were included!

What on earth are all these people doing to deserve such salaries?

TfL still has a final salary pension scheme. The only other part of the public sector that I know of that still has such a scheme is the MP's scheme! If you are aged 60 or more when you leave your pension is payable immediately with no reduction for early payment. Try finding that sort of pension in the private sector.

Then there's the free travel for a TfL employee and a nominated partner/family member on the TfL network. That can easily be worth a couple of thousand pounds per year. Why on earth should a partner or family member get free travel?

And then let's not forget our good friends the tube drivers. The latest pay award means they will be on a base salary of nearly £80,000 a year next April. That is twice what a teacher, nurse or policeman earns. It is obscene.

I could go on. And on.

Suffice to say all the above is one of the reasons why you are paying ever higher fares and charges on London's tubes and roads.

I'm not doubting any of that is true. I'm sure it is. I am questioning why its relevant though? the conversation was about TfL's debt position and that it was for infrastructure investment and that they are running an operating surplus. They must be doing well if they are paying all that and still running an operating surplus for the last 3 years. The toll on blackwall (and silvertown) was a condition of the loan from central government to pay for the silvertown tunell to be built. I suspect the increases in tolls are being driven by that same agreement. 

A lot of what you say above feels very "crabs in a bucket" mentality. Worker compensation has fallen a long way behind productivity with a very clear decoupling in 2008 (after previous gradual widening since the 80's). Its no coincidence that the workers who are most organised and unionised manage to negotiate the best compensation and benefits. Just because the rest of us dont have the same negotiating power due to union busting over the last 40 odd years doesn't mean they are wrong for seeking to be paid a fair wage. Average pay has massively fallen behind in real terms over 40 years now. You have highlighted one area where its fallen slightly less behind inflation than the rest of the economy. Instead of thinking what can we learn from that to ensure fairer pay for everyone you seek to pull them down to the lowest common denominator. I believe we should be looking to them as an example of how to achieve fair pay. I just dont understand how people can look at someone else doing well (despite real terms pay cuts over quite a long period) and think so negatively about that. We should be building each other up not pitting worker against worker. Fair to criticise effectiveness of the organisation or the workers but I think to blanket attack pay is very strange.

As for tube drivers, with the huge amount of research into air quality on the tube and the health impacts of spending a lot of time on the tube I think they are grossly underpaid given we are expecting them to take years if not decades off their life for a job. Its frankly criminal the conditions we expect them to work in.

There are literally thousands of study's this one is scary:https://www.cam.ac.uk/stories/london-underground-pollution
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/252000/largest-study-explores-impact-dust-tube/ there is the famous UCL one - "20 mins on the Northern line is as bad as smoking a cigarette" 

You are aware that conditions in the drivers cab are better than for commuters I assume?

I don’t disagree with your opening statement that they shouldn’t be criticised for being organised and maintaining their relative position but to say they are ‘grossly’ underpaid is wide of the mark. 

You are aware the air quality is the same in the cab I assume? And if you'd read my post you'd know that air quality is the key factor in taking years off their lives. 

Would you do a job that you know takes years off your life for less pay than that? I certainly wouldn't. 

I stand by my statement that they are grossly under paid. Same goes for any job with large risk or health impact e.g. those who work on decommissioning nuclear power plants whose risk of cancer is massively increased. They should be massivelt compensated too.It's a personal value of mine that if people are doing a job that is slowly killing them then they should be massively compensated for that.

Yes I looked at the links you shared. 

This line amongst others stood out:

However, the researchers stress that the findings do not provide enough evidence to establish that exposure to PM2.5 directly leads to sickness absence, and that more research is needed to confirm these potential links.


This doesn’t appear to support your claim
Tube drivers have shorter life expectancy.  

The job of course has some negative features but positive ones too and like us all they accept the role knowing the reward structure. 

I stand by my assertion they are not ‘grossly’ underpaid. 

If you truly believe that what figure do you think is fair? And I assume you would extend to all staff in the station environment even though those staff are not paid the same as drivers. 

You were right to challenge me on air quality as I worded my point badly. I was trying to highlight the cab does have some features designed to offset / protect to some degree ie they aren’t abandoned without any consideration of the working environment (versus the experience for a commuter and which we may in our mind compare to). 

Cabs have that on newer trains and lines - the majority of older lines its usual to see drivers with windows open so I doubt cab air quality is any different. 

Some pretty selective clipping of a quote from the paper there. The full quote is:

"The research, led by Imperial College London, found that staff who worked in areas with higher levels of fine dust – called particulate matter (PM2.5) – also tended to report more episodes of sickness absence.However, the researchers stress that the findings do not provide enough evidence to establish that exposure to PM2.5 directly leads to sickness absence, and that more research is needed to confirm these potential links."

Sickness absence is absolutely not an indicator of the long term health impacts which is what I was referring to. As i said there is a massive body of evidence - I just selected the first couple of research papers from a journal search. Here are some more that are more focused on the long term health impacts of PM2.5 particles.

https://www.stateofglobalair.org/health/pm
Health effects attributable to long-term exposure to PM2.5 include ischemic heart disease, lung cancer, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), lower-respiratory infections (such as pneumonia), stroke, type 2 diabetes, and adverse birth outcomes

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666765724001212

https://www.epa.gov/pm-pollution/health-and-environmental-effects-particulate-matter-pm

Exposure to such particles can affect both your lungs and your heart. Numerous scientific studies have linked particle pollution exposure to a variety of problems, including:

• premature death in people with heart or lung disease
• nonfatal heart attacks
• irregular heartbeat
• aggravated asthma
• decreased lung function
• increased respiratory symptoms, such as irritation of the airways, coughing or difficulty breathing.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/health-matters-air-pollution/health-matters-air-pollution#how-air-pollution-harms-health

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4740125/#sec2
 It was recently reported that the prevalence rate of respiratory diseases increased by 2.07%, while hospitalization rate raised by 8% accordingly, when the daily PM2.5 increased by 10 µg/m3 

There are many many more journals and papers showing this direct causal link.

valleynick66 said:

cantersaddick said:

valleynick66 said:

cantersaddick said:

valleynick66 said:

cantersaddick said:

Fortune 82nd Minute said:

I usually avoid getting into discussions like this on here like the plague but as someone who has spent his life working in the transport field, TfL is like a red flag to a bull to me!

TfL is without doubt the last dinosaur in the public sector. It is hopelessly over-manned and the salaries paid are ludicrously sky high. It is long overdue to be modernised. Indeed, anyone could go in there and cut costs by 30% without affecting its running.

Don't believe me? Well here's a few facts.

The number of TfL workers earning a basic salary of more than £100,000 increased by more than 15% in the last financial year. Data published in TfL's latest remuneration report shows the number of staff with a six-figure basic salary climbed from 536 to 617 over the past year. (In 2016, TfL had just 188 employees on a base salary of more than £100,000).

But its even worse than that. The report reveals that a total of 2,048 TfL staff received more than £100,000 once bonuses and overtime were included!

What on earth are all these people doing to deserve such salaries?

TfL still has a final salary pension scheme. The only other part of the public sector that I know of that still has such a scheme is the MP's scheme! If you are aged 60 or more when you leave your pension is payable immediately with no reduction for early payment. Try finding that sort of pension in the private sector.

Then there's the free travel for a TfL employee and a nominated partner/family member on the TfL network. That can easily be worth a couple of thousand pounds per year. Why on earth should a partner or family member get free travel?

And then let's not forget our good friends the tube drivers. The latest pay award means they will be on a base salary of nearly £80,000 a year next April. That is twice what a teacher, nurse or policeman earns. It is obscene.

I could go on. And on.

Suffice to say all the above is one of the reasons why you are paying ever higher fares and charges on London's tubes and roads.

I'm not doubting any of that is true. I'm sure it is. I am questioning why its relevant though? the conversation was about TfL's debt position and that it was for infrastructure investment and that they are running an operating surplus. They must be doing well if they are paying all that and still running an operating surplus for the last 3 years. The toll on blackwall (and silvertown) was a condition of the loan from central government to pay for the silvertown tunell to be built. I suspect the increases in tolls are being driven by that same agreement. 

A lot of what you say above feels very "crabs in a bucket" mentality. Worker compensation has fallen a long way behind productivity with a very clear decoupling in 2008 (after previous gradual widening since the 80's). Its no coincidence that the workers who are most organised and unionised manage to negotiate the best compensation and benefits. Just because the rest of us dont have the same negotiating power due to union busting over the last 40 odd years doesn't mean they are wrong for seeking to be paid a fair wage. Average pay has massively fallen behind in real terms over 40 years now. You have highlighted one area where its fallen slightly less behind inflation than the rest of the economy. Instead of thinking what can we learn from that to ensure fairer pay for everyone you seek to pull them down to the lowest common denominator. I believe we should be looking to them as an example of how to achieve fair pay. I just dont understand how people can look at someone else doing well (despite real terms pay cuts over quite a long period) and think so negatively about that. We should be building each other up not pitting worker against worker. Fair to criticise effectiveness of the organisation or the workers but I think to blanket attack pay is very strange.

As for tube drivers, with the huge amount of research into air quality on the tube and the health impacts of spending a lot of time on the tube I think they are grossly underpaid given we are expecting them to take years if not decades off their life for a job. Its frankly criminal the conditions we expect them to work in.

There are literally thousands of study's this one is scary:https://www.cam.ac.uk/stories/london-underground-pollution
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/252000/largest-study-explores-impact-dust-tube/ there is the famous UCL one - "20 mins on the Northern line is as bad as smoking a cigarette" 

You are aware that conditions in the drivers cab are better than for commuters I assume?

I don’t disagree with your opening statement that they shouldn’t be criticised for being organised and maintaining their relative position but to say they are ‘grossly’ underpaid is wide of the mark. 

You are aware the air quality is the same in the cab I assume? And if you'd read my post you'd know that air quality is the key factor in taking years off their lives. 

Would you do a job that you know takes years off your life for less pay than that? I certainly wouldn't. 

I stand by my statement that they are grossly under paid. Same goes for any job with large risk or health impact e.g. those who work on decommissioning nuclear power plants whose risk of cancer is massively increased. They should be massivelt compensated too.It's a personal value of mine that if people are doing a job that is slowly killing them then they should be massively compensated for that.

Yes I looked at the links you shared. 

This line amongst others stood out:

However, the researchers stress that the findings do not provide enough evidence to establish that exposure to PM2.5 directly leads to sickness absence, and that more research is needed to confirm these potential links.


This doesn’t appear to support your claim
Tube drivers have shorter life expectancy.  

The job of course has some negative features but positive ones too and like us all they accept the role knowing the reward structure. 

I stand by my assertion they are not ‘grossly’ underpaid. 

If you truly believe that what figure do you think is fair? And I assume you would extend to all staff in the station environment even though those staff are not paid the same as drivers. 

You were right to challenge me on air quality as I worded my point badly. I was trying to highlight the cab does have some features designed to offset / protect to some degree ie they aren’t abandoned without any consideration of the working environment (versus the experience for a commuter and which we may in our mind compare to). 

Cabs have that on newer trains and lines - the majority of older lines its usual to see drivers with windows open so I doubt cab air quality is any different. 

Some pretty selective clipping of a quote from the paper there. The full quote is:

"The research, led by Imperial College London, found that staff who worked in areas with higher levels of fine dust – called particulate matter (PM2.5) – also tended to report more episodes of sickness absence.However, the researchers stress that the findings do not provide enough evidence to establish that exposure to PM2.5 directly leads to sickness absence, and that more research is needed to confirm these potential links."

Sickness absence is absolutely not an indicator of the long term health impacts which is what I was referring to. As i said there is a massive body of evidence - I just selected the first couple of research papers from a journal search. Here are some more that are more focused on the long term health impacts of PM2.5 particles.

https://www.stateofglobalair.org/health/pm
Health effects attributable to long-term exposure to PM2.5 include ischemic heart disease, lung cancer, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), lower-respiratory infections (such as pneumonia), stroke, type 2 diabetes, and adverse birth outcomes

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666765724001212

https://www.epa.gov/pm-pollution/health-and-environmental-effects-particulate-matter-pm

Exposure to such particles can affect both your lungs and your heart. Numerous scientific studies have linked particle pollution exposure to a variety of problems, including:

• premature death in people with heart or lung disease
• nonfatal heart attacks
• irregular heartbeat
• aggravated asthma
• decreased lung function
• increased respiratory symptoms, such as irritation of the airways, coughing or difficulty breathing.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/health-matters-air-pollution/health-matters-air-pollution#how-air-pollution-harms-health

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4740125/#sec2
 It was recently reported that the prevalence rate of respiratory diseases increased by 2.07%, while hospitalization rate raised by 8% accordingly, when the daily PM2.5 increased by 10 µg/m3 

There are many many more journals and papers showing this direct causal link.

I really wasn’t being selective - I think that’s your bias. It stood out from what you provided.  

I conceded the point on air quality   

The (original) links did not confirm Tube drivers are a group likely to die younger as you implied. And as you say many jobs expose people to different negative health factors not least of course stress in more traditional white collar roles. 

Regardless my comment was the use of the word ‘grossly’. 

I still think you exaggerate with this term (relative to many other roles) and note you haven’t quantified what you think would be fair. 

valleynick66 said:

cantersaddick said:

valleynick66 said:

cantersaddick said:

valleynick66 said:

cantersaddick said:

valleynick66 said:

cantersaddick said:

Fortune 82nd Minute said:

I usually avoid getting into discussions like this on here like the plague but as someone who has spent his life working in the transport field, TfL is like a red flag to a bull to me!

TfL is without doubt the last dinosaur in the public sector. It is hopelessly over-manned and the salaries paid are ludicrously sky high. It is long overdue to be modernised. Indeed, anyone could go in there and cut costs by 30% without affecting its running.

Don't believe me? Well here's a few facts.

The number of TfL workers earning a basic salary of more than £100,000 increased by more than 15% in the last financial year. Data published in TfL's latest remuneration report shows the number of staff with a six-figure basic salary climbed from 536 to 617 over the past year. (In 2016, TfL had just 188 employees on a base salary of more than £100,000).

But its even worse than that. The report reveals that a total of 2,048 TfL staff received more than £100,000 once bonuses and overtime were included!

What on earth are all these people doing to deserve such salaries?

TfL still has a final salary pension scheme. The only other part of the public sector that I know of that still has such a scheme is the MP's scheme! If you are aged 60 or more when you leave your pension is payable immediately with no reduction for early payment. Try finding that sort of pension in the private sector.

Then there's the free travel for a TfL employee and a nominated partner/family member on the TfL network. That can easily be worth a couple of thousand pounds per year. Why on earth should a partner or family member get free travel?

And then let's not forget our good friends the tube drivers. The latest pay award means they will be on a base salary of nearly £80,000 a year next April. That is twice what a teacher, nurse or policeman earns. It is obscene.

I could go on. And on.

Suffice to say all the above is one of the reasons why you are paying ever higher fares and charges on London's tubes and roads.

I'm not doubting any of that is true. I'm sure it is. I am questioning why its relevant though? the conversation was about TfL's debt position and that it was for infrastructure investment and that they are running an operating surplus. They must be doing well if they are paying all that and still running an operating surplus for the last 3 years. The toll on blackwall (and silvertown) was a condition of the loan from central government to pay for the silvertown tunell to be built. I suspect the increases in tolls are being driven by that same agreement. 

A lot of what you say above feels very "crabs in a bucket" mentality. Worker compensation has fallen a long way behind productivity with a very clear decoupling in 2008 (after previous gradual widening since the 80's). Its no coincidence that the workers who are most organised and unionised manage to negotiate the best compensation and benefits. Just because the rest of us dont have the same negotiating power due to union busting over the last 40 odd years doesn't mean they are wrong for seeking to be paid a fair wage. Average pay has massively fallen behind in real terms over 40 years now. You have highlighted one area where its fallen slightly less behind inflation than the rest of the economy. Instead of thinking what can we learn from that to ensure fairer pay for everyone you seek to pull them down to the lowest common denominator. I believe we should be looking to them as an example of how to achieve fair pay. I just dont understand how people can look at someone else doing well (despite real terms pay cuts over quite a long period) and think so negatively about that. We should be building each other up not pitting worker against worker. Fair to criticise effectiveness of the organisation or the workers but I think to blanket attack pay is very strange.

As for tube drivers, with the huge amount of research into air quality on the tube and the health impacts of spending a lot of time on the tube I think they are grossly underpaid given we are expecting them to take years if not decades off their life for a job. Its frankly criminal the conditions we expect them to work in.

There are literally thousands of study's this one is scary:https://www.cam.ac.uk/stories/london-underground-pollution
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/252000/largest-study-explores-impact-dust-tube/ there is the famous UCL one - "20 mins on the Northern line is as bad as smoking a cigarette" 

You are aware that conditions in the drivers cab are better than for commuters I assume?

I don’t disagree with your opening statement that they shouldn’t be criticised for being organised and maintaining their relative position but to say they are ‘grossly’ underpaid is wide of the mark. 

You are aware the air quality is the same in the cab I assume? And if you'd read my post you'd know that air quality is the key factor in taking years off their lives. 

Would you do a job that you know takes years off your life for less pay than that? I certainly wouldn't. 

I stand by my statement that they are grossly under paid. Same goes for any job with large risk or health impact e.g. those who work on decommissioning nuclear power plants whose risk of cancer is massively increased. They should be massivelt compensated too.It's a personal value of mine that if people are doing a job that is slowly killing them then they should be massively compensated for that.

Yes I looked at the links you shared. 

This line amongst others stood out:

However, the researchers stress that the findings do not provide enough evidence to establish that exposure to PM2.5 directly leads to sickness absence, and that more research is needed to confirm these potential links.


This doesn’t appear to support your claim
Tube drivers have shorter life expectancy.  

The job of course has some negative features but positive ones too and like us all they accept the role knowing the reward structure. 

I stand by my assertion they are not ‘grossly’ underpaid. 

If you truly believe that what figure do you think is fair? And I assume you would extend to all staff in the station environment even though those staff are not paid the same as drivers. 

You were right to challenge me on air quality as I worded my point badly. I was trying to highlight the cab does have some features designed to offset / protect to some degree ie they aren’t abandoned without any consideration of the working environment (versus the experience for a commuter and which we may in our mind compare to). 

Cabs have that on newer trains and lines - the majority of older lines its usual to see drivers with windows open so I doubt cab air quality is any different. 

Some pretty selective clipping of a quote from the paper there. The full quote is:

"The research, led by Imperial College London, found that staff who worked in areas with higher levels of fine dust – called particulate matter (PM2.5) – also tended to report more episodes of sickness absence.However, the researchers stress that the findings do not provide enough evidence to establish that exposure to PM2.5 directly leads to sickness absence, and that more research is needed to confirm these potential links."

Sickness absence is absolutely not an indicator of the long term health impacts which is what I was referring to. As i said there is a massive body of evidence - I just selected the first couple of research papers from a journal search. Here are some more that are more focused on the long term health impacts of PM2.5 particles.

https://www.stateofglobalair.org/health/pm
Health effects attributable to long-term exposure to PM2.5 include ischemic heart disease, lung cancer, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), lower-respiratory infections (such as pneumonia), stroke, type 2 diabetes, and adverse birth outcomes

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666765724001212

https://www.epa.gov/pm-pollution/health-and-environmental-effects-particulate-matter-pm

Exposure to such particles can affect both your lungs and your heart. Numerous scientific studies have linked particle pollution exposure to a variety of problems, including:

• premature death in people with heart or lung disease
• nonfatal heart attacks
• irregular heartbeat
• aggravated asthma
• decreased lung function
• increased respiratory symptoms, such as irritation of the airways, coughing or difficulty breathing.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/health-matters-air-pollution/health-matters-air-pollution#how-air-pollution-harms-health

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4740125/#sec2
 It was recently reported that the prevalence rate of respiratory diseases increased by 2.07%, while hospitalization rate raised by 8% accordingly, when the daily PM2.5 increased by 10 µg/m3 

There are many many more journals and papers showing this direct causal link.

I really wasn’t being selective - I think that’s your bias. It stood out from what you provided.  

I conceded the point on air quality   

The (original) links did not confirm Tube drivers are a group likely to die younger as you implied. And as you say many jobs expose people to different negative health factors not least of course stress in more traditional white collar roles. 

Regardless my comment was the use of the word ‘grossly’. 

I still think you exaggerate with this term (relative to many other roles) and note you haven’t quantified what you think would be fair. 

The reason I havent quantified what would be fair is because for me I can't think of an amount of money that would make me want to do that job knowing about the health impacts of spending time in that environment. Maybe that's coming from a position of privilege as I already have a high paid job that doesn't endanger my health. But I genuinely can't put an amount on how much I'd need to be paid to do it.

How much would you want to be paid to do that role knowing it would likely take years off your life?

If you say ‘grossly’ you must surely have a figure in mind. Otherwise why conclude grossly?

Furthermore the role is not definitively endangering your health any more than many other aspects of living your life. 

It’s your emotive  language I find issue with. 

Unless of course you think no reward is fair and consciously refuse to use the underground under all circumstances because of the unfair risk to customers and staff. 

It may not be ideal but nothing is. 

CaptainRobbo said:

jose said:

I have credit on the Dartford charge just in case I find myself using that crossing.
I wish there was a single simplified system to cover it all, ULEZ, congestion, and river crossings. As well as the totally incomprehensible nationwide car parking systems, and for any fines.
If there were such a system I would scrape together something like £50 credit to avoid stress when interacting with those systems.
In the face of all this nerd generated malarkey I wish we could get back to simple and straightforward cash.
Sadiq Khant has done a good job as Mayor, he has been elected three times. I live around the corner from the late Ella Adoo Kissi Debra hard by the South Circular, and the death of the poor girl has led to cleaner air round my way thanks to the action of Khan and his team.

Sometimes you wish you could LOL a post multiple times. 
Vladimir Putin keeps getting elected too.

cafcfan said:

cantersaddick said:

valleynick66 said:

cantersaddick said:

Fortune 82nd Minute said:

I usually avoid getting into discussions like this on here like the plague but as someone who has spent his life working in the transport field, TfL is like a red flag to a bull to me!

TfL is without doubt the last dinosaur in the public sector. It is hopelessly over-manned and the salaries paid are ludicrously sky high. It is long overdue to be modernised. Indeed, anyone could go in there and cut costs by 30% without affecting its running.

Don't believe me? Well here's a few facts.

The number of TfL workers earning a basic salary of more than £100,000 increased by more than 15% in the last financial year. Data published in TfL's latest remuneration report shows the number of staff with a six-figure basic salary climbed from 536 to 617 over the past year. (In 2016, TfL had just 188 employees on a base salary of more than £100,000).

But its even worse than that. The report reveals that a total of 2,048 TfL staff received more than £100,000 once bonuses and overtime were included!

What on earth are all these people doing to deserve such salaries?

TfL still has a final salary pension scheme. The only other part of the public sector that I know of that still has such a scheme is the MP's scheme! If you are aged 60 or more when you leave your pension is payable immediately with no reduction for early payment. Try finding that sort of pension in the private sector.

Then there's the free travel for a TfL employee and a nominated partner/family member on the TfL network. That can easily be worth a couple of thousand pounds per year. Why on earth should a partner or family member get free travel?

And then let's not forget our good friends the tube drivers. The latest pay award means they will be on a base salary of nearly £80,000 a year next April. That is twice what a teacher, nurse or policeman earns. It is obscene.

I could go on. And on.

Suffice to say all the above is one of the reasons why you are paying ever higher fares and charges on London's tubes and roads.

I'm not doubting any of that is true. I'm sure it is. I am questioning why its relevant though? the conversation was about TfL's debt position and that it was for infrastructure investment and that they are running an operating surplus. They must be doing well if they are paying all that and still running an operating surplus for the last 3 years. The toll on blackwall (and silvertown) was a condition of the loan from central government to pay for the silvertown tunell to be built. I suspect the increases in tolls are being driven by that same agreement. 

A lot of what you say above feels very "crabs in a bucket" mentality. Worker compensation has fallen a long way behind productivity with a very clear decoupling in 2008 (after previous gradual widening since the 80's). Its no coincidence that the workers who are most organised and unionised manage to negotiate the best compensation and benefits. Just because the rest of us dont have the same negotiating power due to union busting over the last 40 odd years doesn't mean they are wrong for seeking to be paid a fair wage. Average pay has massively fallen behind in real terms over 40 years now. You have highlighted one area where its fallen slightly less behind inflation than the rest of the economy. Instead of thinking what can we learn from that to ensure fairer pay for everyone you seek to pull them down to the lowest common denominator. I believe we should be looking to them as an example of how to achieve fair pay. I just dont understand how people can look at someone else doing well (despite real terms pay cuts over quite a long period) and think so negatively about that. We should be building each other up not pitting worker against worker. Fair to criticise effectiveness of the organisation or the workers but I think to blanket attack pay is very strange.

As for tube drivers, with the huge amount of research into air quality on the tube and the health impacts of spending a lot of time on the tube I think they are grossly underpaid given we are expecting them to take years if not decades off their life for a job. Its frankly criminal the conditions we expect them to work in.

There are literally thousands of study's this one is scary:https://www.cam.ac.uk/stories/london-underground-pollution
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/252000/largest-study-explores-impact-dust-tube/ there is the famous UCL one - "20 mins on the Northern line is as bad as smoking a cigarette" 

You are aware that conditions in the drivers cab are better than for commuters I assume?

I don’t disagree with your opening statement that they shouldn’t be criticised for being organised and maintaining their relative position but to say they are ‘grossly’ underpaid is wide of the mark. 

You are aware the air quality is the same in the cab I assume? And if you'd read my post you'd know that air quality is the key factor in taking years off their lives. 

Would you do a job that you know takes years off your life for less pay than that? I certainly wouldn't. 

I stand by my statement that they are grossly under paid. Same goes for any job with large risk or health impact e.g. those who work on decommissioning nuclear power plants who's risk of cancer is massively increased. They should be massivelt compensated too.It's a personal value of mine that if people are doing a job that is slowly killing them then they should be massively compensated for that.

cantersaddick said:

valleynick66 said:

cantersaddick said:

Fortune 82nd Minute said:

I usually avoid getting into discussions like this on here like the plague but as someone who has spent his life working in the transport field, TfL is like a red flag to a bull to me!

TfL is without doubt the last dinosaur in the public sector. It is hopelessly over-manned and the salaries paid are ludicrously sky high. It is long overdue to be modernised. Indeed, anyone could go in there and cut costs by 30% without affecting its running.

Don't believe me? Well here's a few facts.

The number of TfL workers earning a basic salary of more than £100,000 increased by more than 15% in the last financial year. Data published in TfL's latest remuneration report shows the number of staff with a six-figure basic salary climbed from 536 to 617 over the past year. (In 2016, TfL had just 188 employees on a base salary of more than £100,000).

But its even worse than that. The report reveals that a total of 2,048 TfL staff received more than £100,000 once bonuses and overtime were included!

What on earth are all these people doing to deserve such salaries?

TfL still has a final salary pension scheme. The only other part of the public sector that I know of that still has such a scheme is the MP's scheme! If you are aged 60 or more when you leave your pension is payable immediately with no reduction for early payment. Try finding that sort of pension in the private sector.

Then there's the free travel for a TfL employee and a nominated partner/family member on the TfL network. That can easily be worth a couple of thousand pounds per year. Why on earth should a partner or family member get free travel?

And then let's not forget our good friends the tube drivers. The latest pay award means they will be on a base salary of nearly £80,000 a year next April. That is twice what a teacher, nurse or policeman earns. It is obscene.

I could go on. And on.

Suffice to say all the above is one of the reasons why you are paying ever higher fares and charges on London's tubes and roads.

I'm not doubting any of that is true. I'm sure it is. I am questioning why its relevant though? the conversation was about TfL's debt position and that it was for infrastructure investment and that they are running an operating surplus. They must be doing well if they are paying all that and still running an operating surplus for the last 3 years. The toll on blackwall (and silvertown) was a condition of the loan from central government to pay for the silvertown tunell to be built. I suspect the increases in tolls are being driven by that same agreement. 

A lot of what you say above feels very "crabs in a bucket" mentality. Worker compensation has fallen a long way behind productivity with a very clear decoupling in 2008 (after previous gradual widening since the 80's). Its no coincidence that the workers who are most organised and unionised manage to negotiate the best compensation and benefits. Just because the rest of us dont have the same negotiating power due to union busting over the last 40 odd years doesn't mean they are wrong for seeking to be paid a fair wage. Average pay has massively fallen behind in real terms over 40 years now. You have highlighted one area where its fallen slightly less behind inflation than the rest of the economy. Instead of thinking what can we learn from that to ensure fairer pay for everyone you seek to pull them down to the lowest common denominator. I believe we should be looking to them as an example of how to achieve fair pay. I just dont understand how people can look at someone else doing well (despite real terms pay cuts over quite a long period) and think so negatively about that. We should be building each other up not pitting worker against worker. Fair to criticise effectiveness of the organisation or the workers but I think to blanket attack pay is very strange.

As for tube drivers, with the huge amount of research into air quality on the tube and the health impacts of spending a lot of time on the tube I think they are grossly underpaid given we are expecting them to take years if not decades off their life for a job. Its frankly criminal the conditions we expect them to work in.

There are literally thousands of study's this one is scary:https://www.cam.ac.uk/stories/london-underground-pollution
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/252000/largest-study-explores-impact-dust-tube/ there is the famous UCL one - "20 mins on the Northern line is as bad as smoking a cigarette" 

You are aware that conditions in the drivers cab are better than for commuters I assume?

I don’t disagree with your opening statement that they shouldn’t be criticised for being organised and maintaining their relative position but to say they are ‘grossly’ underpaid is wide of the mark. 

You are aware the air quality is the same in the cab I assume? And if you'd read my post you'd know that air quality is the key factor in taking years off their lives. 

Would you do a job that you know takes years off your life for less pay than that? I certainly wouldn't. 

I stand by my statement that they are grossly under paid. Same goes for any job with large risk or health impact e.g. those who work on decommissioning nuclear power plants who's risk of cancer is massively increased. They should be massivelt compensated too.It's a personal value of mine that if people are doing a job that is slowly killing them then they should be massively compensated for that.

But 192 of the 250 miles of "Underground" track is actually above ground.  (And the problem has been massively reduced since new trains were introduced 15 years ago?)

In any event, the Imperial College study concluded: that while “There was some evidence to suggest that staff exposed to higher levels of PM2.5 took more days off sick, but this link wasn’t clear cut.”

They countered that by suggesting the difference might just have been that desk job workers just battled on through an illness or worked from home if they were feeling a bit rough. Something tube drivers and station staff cannot do of course.  

These massively overpaid jobs are not available to anyone: there are no vacancies. What does that tell you?  (To get to be a tube driver you must already be working in another capacity for TfL.) Let's face it, you sit down all day and push a lever forwards and backwards. It's not rocket science is it?

cantersaddick said:

valleynick66 said:

cantersaddick said:

valleynick66 said:

cantersaddick said:

Fortune 82nd Minute said:

I usually avoid getting into discussions like this on here like the plague but as someone who has spent his life working in the transport field, TfL is like a red flag to a bull to me!

TfL is without doubt the last dinosaur in the public sector. It is hopelessly over-manned and the salaries paid are ludicrously sky high. It is long overdue to be modernised. Indeed, anyone could go in there and cut costs by 30% without affecting its running.

Don't believe me? Well here's a few facts.

The number of TfL workers earning a basic salary of more than £100,000 increased by more than 15% in the last financial year. Data published in TfL's latest remuneration report shows the number of staff with a six-figure basic salary climbed from 536 to 617 over the past year. (In 2016, TfL had just 188 employees on a base salary of more than £100,000).

But its even worse than that. The report reveals that a total of 2,048 TfL staff received more than £100,000 once bonuses and overtime were included!

What on earth are all these people doing to deserve such salaries?

TfL still has a final salary pension scheme. The only other part of the public sector that I know of that still has such a scheme is the MP's scheme! If you are aged 60 or more when you leave your pension is payable immediately with no reduction for early payment. Try finding that sort of pension in the private sector.

Then there's the free travel for a TfL employee and a nominated partner/family member on the TfL network. That can easily be worth a couple of thousand pounds per year. Why on earth should a partner or family member get free travel?

And then let's not forget our good friends the tube drivers. The latest pay award means they will be on a base salary of nearly £80,000 a year next April. That is twice what a teacher, nurse or policeman earns. It is obscene.

I could go on. And on.

Suffice to say all the above is one of the reasons why you are paying ever higher fares and charges on London's tubes and roads.

I'm not doubting any of that is true. I'm sure it is. I am questioning why its relevant though? the conversation was about TfL's debt position and that it was for infrastructure investment and that they are running an operating surplus. They must be doing well if they are paying all that and still running an operating surplus for the last 3 years. The toll on blackwall (and silvertown) was a condition of the loan from central government to pay for the silvertown tunell to be built. I suspect the increases in tolls are being driven by that same agreement. 

A lot of what you say above feels very "crabs in a bucket" mentality. Worker compensation has fallen a long way behind productivity with a very clear decoupling in 2008 (after previous gradual widening since the 80's). Its no coincidence that the workers who are most organised and unionised manage to negotiate the best compensation and benefits. Just because the rest of us dont have the same negotiating power due to union busting over the last 40 odd years doesn't mean they are wrong for seeking to be paid a fair wage. Average pay has massively fallen behind in real terms over 40 years now. You have highlighted one area where its fallen slightly less behind inflation than the rest of the economy. Instead of thinking what can we learn from that to ensure fairer pay for everyone you seek to pull them down to the lowest common denominator. I believe we should be looking to them as an example of how to achieve fair pay. I just dont understand how people can look at someone else doing well (despite real terms pay cuts over quite a long period) and think so negatively about that. We should be building each other up not pitting worker against worker. Fair to criticise effectiveness of the organisation or the workers but I think to blanket attack pay is very strange.

As for tube drivers, with the huge amount of research into air quality on the tube and the health impacts of spending a lot of time on the tube I think they are grossly underpaid given we are expecting them to take years if not decades off their life for a job. Its frankly criminal the conditions we expect them to work in.

There are literally thousands of study's this one is scary:https://www.cam.ac.uk/stories/london-underground-pollution
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/252000/largest-study-explores-impact-dust-tube/ there is the famous UCL one - "20 mins on the Northern line is as bad as smoking a cigarette" 

You are aware that conditions in the drivers cab are better than for commuters I assume?

I don’t disagree with your opening statement that they shouldn’t be criticised for being organised and maintaining their relative position but to say they are ‘grossly’ underpaid is wide of the mark. 

You are aware the air quality is the same in the cab I assume? And if you'd read my post you'd know that air quality is the key factor in taking years off their lives. 

Would you do a job that you know takes years off your life for less pay than that? I certainly wouldn't. 

I stand by my statement that they are grossly under paid. Same goes for any job with large risk or health impact e.g. those who work on decommissioning nuclear power plants whose risk of cancer is massively increased. They should be massivelt compensated too.It's a personal value of mine that if people are doing a job that is slowly killing them then they should be massively compensated for that.

Yes I looked at the links you shared. 

This line amongst others stood out:

However, the researchers stress that the findings do not provide enough evidence to establish that exposure to PM2.5 directly leads to sickness absence, and that more research is needed to confirm these potential links.


This doesn’t appear to support your claim
Tube drivers have shorter life expectancy.  

The job of course has some negative features but positive ones too and like us all they accept the role knowing the reward structure. 

I stand by my assertion they are not ‘grossly’ underpaid. 

If you truly believe that what figure do you think is fair? And I assume you would extend to all staff in the station environment even though those staff are not paid the same as drivers. 

You were right to challenge me on air quality as I worded my point badly. I was trying to highlight the cab does have some features designed to offset / protect to some degree ie they aren’t abandoned without any consideration of the working environment (versus the experience for a commuter and which we may in our mind compare to). 

Cabs have that on newer trains and lines - the majority of older lines its usual to see drivers with windows open so I doubt cab air quality is any different. 

Some pretty selective clipping of a quote from the paper there. The full quote is:

"The research, led by Imperial College London, found that staff who worked in areas with higher levels of fine dust – called particulate matter (PM2.5) – also tended to report more episodes of sickness absence.However, the researchers stress that the findings do not provide enough evidence to establish that exposure to PM2.5 directly leads to sickness absence, and that more research is needed to confirm these potential links."

Sickness absence is absolutely not an indicator of the long term health impacts which is what I was referring to. As i said there is a massive body of evidence - I just selected the first couple of research papers from a journal search. Here are some more that are more focused on the long term health impacts of PM2.5 particles.

https://www.stateofglobalair.org/health/pm
Health effects attributable to long-term exposure to PM2.5 include ischemic heart disease, lung cancer, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), lower-respiratory infections (such as pneumonia), stroke, type 2 diabetes, and adverse birth outcomes

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666765724001212

https://www.epa.gov/pm-pollution/health-and-environmental-effects-particulate-matter-pm

Exposure to such particles can affect both your lungs and your heart. Numerous scientific studies have linked particle pollution exposure to a variety of problems, including:

• premature death in people with heart or lung disease
• nonfatal heart attacks
• irregular heartbeat
• aggravated asthma
• decreased lung function
• increased respiratory symptoms, such as irritation of the airways, coughing or difficulty breathing.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/health-matters-air-pollution/health-matters-air-pollution#how-air-pollution-harms-health

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4740125/#sec2
 It was recently reported that the prevalence rate of respiratory diseases increased by 2.07%, while hospitalization rate raised by 8% accordingly, when the daily PM2.5 increased by 10 µg/m3 

There are many many more journals and papers showing this direct causal link.

Fortune 82nd Minute said:

cafcfan said:

cantersaddick said:

valleynick66 said:

cantersaddick said:

Fortune 82nd Minute said:

I usually avoid getting into discussions like this on here like the plague but as someone who has spent his life working in the transport field, TfL is like a red flag to a bull to me!

TfL is without doubt the last dinosaur in the public sector. It is hopelessly over-manned and the salaries paid are ludicrously sky high. It is long overdue to be modernised. Indeed, anyone could go in there and cut costs by 30% without affecting its running.

Don't believe me? Well here's a few facts.

The number of TfL workers earning a basic salary of more than £100,000 increased by more than 15% in the last financial year. Data published in TfL's latest remuneration report shows the number of staff with a six-figure basic salary climbed from 536 to 617 over the past year. (In 2016, TfL had just 188 employees on a base salary of more than £100,000).

But its even worse than that. The report reveals that a total of 2,048 TfL staff received more than £100,000 once bonuses and overtime were included!

What on earth are all these people doing to deserve such salaries?

TfL still has a final salary pension scheme. The only other part of the public sector that I know of that still has such a scheme is the MP's scheme! If you are aged 60 or more when you leave your pension is payable immediately with no reduction for early payment. Try finding that sort of pension in the private sector.

Then there's the free travel for a TfL employee and a nominated partner/family member on the TfL network. That can easily be worth a couple of thousand pounds per year. Why on earth should a partner or family member get free travel?

And then let's not forget our good friends the tube drivers. The latest pay award means they will be on a base salary of nearly £80,000 a year next April. That is twice what a teacher, nurse or policeman earns. It is obscene.

I could go on. And on.

Suffice to say all the above is one of the reasons why you are paying ever higher fares and charges on London's tubes and roads.

I'm not doubting any of that is true. I'm sure it is. I am questioning why its relevant though? the conversation was about TfL's debt position and that it was for infrastructure investment and that they are running an operating surplus. They must be doing well if they are paying all that and still running an operating surplus for the last 3 years. The toll on blackwall (and silvertown) was a condition of the loan from central government to pay for the silvertown tunell to be built. I suspect the increases in tolls are being driven by that same agreement. 

A lot of what you say above feels very "crabs in a bucket" mentality. Worker compensation has fallen a long way behind productivity with a very clear decoupling in 2008 (after previous gradual widening since the 80's). Its no coincidence that the workers who are most organised and unionised manage to negotiate the best compensation and benefits. Just because the rest of us dont have the same negotiating power due to union busting over the last 40 odd years doesn't mean they are wrong for seeking to be paid a fair wage. Average pay has massively fallen behind in real terms over 40 years now. You have highlighted one area where its fallen slightly less behind inflation than the rest of the economy. Instead of thinking what can we learn from that to ensure fairer pay for everyone you seek to pull them down to the lowest common denominator. I believe we should be looking to them as an example of how to achieve fair pay. I just dont understand how people can look at someone else doing well (despite real terms pay cuts over quite a long period) and think so negatively about that. We should be building each other up not pitting worker against worker. Fair to criticise effectiveness of the organisation or the workers but I think to blanket attack pay is very strange.

As for tube drivers, with the huge amount of research into air quality on the tube and the health impacts of spending a lot of time on the tube I think they are grossly underpaid given we are expecting them to take years if not decades off their life for a job. Its frankly criminal the conditions we expect them to work in.

There are literally thousands of study's this one is scary:https://www.cam.ac.uk/stories/london-underground-pollution
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/252000/largest-study-explores-impact-dust-tube/ there is the famous UCL one - "20 mins on the Northern line is as bad as smoking a cigarette" 

You are aware that conditions in the drivers cab are better than for commuters I assume?

I don’t disagree with your opening statement that they shouldn’t be criticised for being organised and maintaining their relative position but to say they are ‘grossly’ underpaid is wide of the mark. 

You are aware the air quality is the same in the cab I assume? And if you'd read my post you'd know that air quality is the key factor in taking years off their lives. 

Would you do a job that you know takes years off your life for less pay than that? I certainly wouldn't. 

I stand by my statement that they are grossly under paid. Same goes for any job with large risk or health impact e.g. those who work on decommissioning nuclear power plants who's risk of cancer is massively increased. They should be massivelt compensated too.It's a personal value of mine that if people are doing a job that is slowly killing them then they should be massively compensated for that.

cantersaddick said:

valleynick66 said:

cantersaddick said:

Fortune 82nd Minute said:

I usually avoid getting into discussions like this on here like the plague but as someone who has spent his life working in the transport field, TfL is like a red flag to a bull to me!

TfL is without doubt the last dinosaur in the public sector. It is hopelessly over-manned and the salaries paid are ludicrously sky high. It is long overdue to be modernised. Indeed, anyone could go in there and cut costs by 30% without affecting its running.

Don't believe me? Well here's a few facts.

The number of TfL workers earning a basic salary of more than £100,000 increased by more than 15% in the last financial year. Data published in TfL's latest remuneration report shows the number of staff with a six-figure basic salary climbed from 536 to 617 over the past year. (In 2016, TfL had just 188 employees on a base salary of more than £100,000).

But its even worse than that. The report reveals that a total of 2,048 TfL staff received more than £100,000 once bonuses and overtime were included!

What on earth are all these people doing to deserve such salaries?

TfL still has a final salary pension scheme. The only other part of the public sector that I know of that still has such a scheme is the MP's scheme! If you are aged 60 or more when you leave your pension is payable immediately with no reduction for early payment. Try finding that sort of pension in the private sector.

Then there's the free travel for a TfL employee and a nominated partner/family member on the TfL network. That can easily be worth a couple of thousand pounds per year. Why on earth should a partner or family member get free travel?

And then let's not forget our good friends the tube drivers. The latest pay award means they will be on a base salary of nearly £80,000 a year next April. That is twice what a teacher, nurse or policeman earns. It is obscene.

I could go on. And on.

Suffice to say all the above is one of the reasons why you are paying ever higher fares and charges on London's tubes and roads.

I'm not doubting any of that is true. I'm sure it is. I am questioning why its relevant though? the conversation was about TfL's debt position and that it was for infrastructure investment and that they are running an operating surplus. They must be doing well if they are paying all that and still running an operating surplus for the last 3 years. The toll on blackwall (and silvertown) was a condition of the loan from central government to pay for the silvertown tunell to be built. I suspect the increases in tolls are being driven by that same agreement. 

A lot of what you say above feels very "crabs in a bucket" mentality. Worker compensation has fallen a long way behind productivity with a very clear decoupling in 2008 (after previous gradual widening since the 80's). Its no coincidence that the workers who are most organised and unionised manage to negotiate the best compensation and benefits. Just because the rest of us dont have the same negotiating power due to union busting over the last 40 odd years doesn't mean they are wrong for seeking to be paid a fair wage. Average pay has massively fallen behind in real terms over 40 years now. You have highlighted one area where its fallen slightly less behind inflation than the rest of the economy. Instead of thinking what can we learn from that to ensure fairer pay for everyone you seek to pull them down to the lowest common denominator. I believe we should be looking to them as an example of how to achieve fair pay. I just dont understand how people can look at someone else doing well (despite real terms pay cuts over quite a long period) and think so negatively about that. We should be building each other up not pitting worker against worker. Fair to criticise effectiveness of the organisation or the workers but I think to blanket attack pay is very strange.

As for tube drivers, with the huge amount of research into air quality on the tube and the health impacts of spending a lot of time on the tube I think they are grossly underpaid given we are expecting them to take years if not decades off their life for a job. Its frankly criminal the conditions we expect them to work in.

There are literally thousands of study's this one is scary:https://www.cam.ac.uk/stories/london-underground-pollution
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/252000/largest-study-explores-impact-dust-tube/ there is the famous UCL one - "20 mins on the Northern line is as bad as smoking a cigarette" 

You are aware that conditions in the drivers cab are better than for commuters I assume?

I don’t disagree with your opening statement that they shouldn’t be criticised for being organised and maintaining their relative position but to say they are ‘grossly’ underpaid is wide of the mark. 

You are aware the air quality is the same in the cab I assume? And if you'd read my post you'd know that air quality is the key factor in taking years off their lives. 

Would you do a job that you know takes years off your life for less pay than that? I certainly wouldn't. 

I stand by my statement that they are grossly under paid. Same goes for any job with large risk or health impact e.g. those who work on decommissioning nuclear power plants who's risk of cancer is massively increased. They should be massivelt compensated too.It's a personal value of mine that if people are doing a job that is slowly killing them then they should be massively compensated for that.

But 192 of the 250 miles of "Underground" track is actually above ground.  (And the problem has been massively reduced since new trains were introduced 15 years ago?)

In any event, the Imperial College study concluded: that while “There was some evidence to suggest that staff exposed to higher levels of PM2.5 took more days off sick, but this link wasn’t clear cut.”

They countered that by suggesting the difference might just have been that desk job workers just battled on through an illness or worked from home if they were feeling a bit rough. Something tube drivers and station staff cannot do of course.  

These massively overpaid jobs are not available to anyone: there are no vacancies. What does that tell you?  (To get to be a tube driver you must already be working in another capacity for TfL.) Let's face it, you sit down all day and push a lever forwards and backwards. It's not rocket science is it?

Exactly.

If tube driving was such a hideous profession then there would be hundreds of vacancies all year round. (Similar to opportunities to be a baggage handler at Heathrow - now that really is an awful job which is why few want to do it). But as you say there are no vacancies and when they do come up they are much sought after by other TfL staff.

£80k to drive a tube is obscene. If you had a poll on it, I doubt more than a handful of people would agree with tube drivers getting that salary. And they would probably be relatives of the drivers! 

tallboy said:

Glad to see that cantersaddick is taking my "post less, think more" advice so seriously.

ThreadKiller said:

Good luck to the tube drivers, I don't really understand the ill feeling towards them

tallboy said:

cantersaddick said:

tallboy said:

Glad to see that cantersaddick is taking my "post less, think more" advice so seriously.

Ahhh the old ad hominem. A certain sign someone has got no answer. Or you could offer an actual answer to any of my points (remember they were points you asked me to produce). 

What no more scientific papers to link to?