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After the Millwall game - club reply to CAST p34, further CAST response p45
Comments
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Doesn't Jim Davidson live in Dubai?0
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Absolutely. Anyone who was shuffling down the West Upper stairs for ten minutes because there was a log jam of people at the bottom (closed gates and no guidance) could clearly see it was a ‘serious incident’ waiting to happenPragueAddick said:
There were no "serious incidents" at the Leppings Lane end at Hillsborough .Until there was. Due mainly to complacency and arrogance on the part of the police. The best practice approach is to anticipate potential danger points, with the help of experienced professionals who have worked at the location for many years. Overruling their concerns and imposing an already tried (and failed) process on a venue at the last moment is the very antithesis of best practice.valleynick66 said:
I’m sure we tick all the necessary boxes as a club that are required.swords_alive said:
Not much to uncover you think @valleynick66?valleynick66 said:
Yes that’s true.shirty5 said:
You learn a lot from people’s body language. Normally a good barvalleynick66 said:
Agreed - that would be more entertaining!shirty5 said:
If it was an open Q and A down the club then maybe that would be differentvalleynick66 said:The reality of the Millwall game is known if we are honest.The police made the call and the club have to comply.The club royally mucked up in how they chose to advertise it and steward it post match vis a vis announcements.The police will have had a rationale for their decision to not keep Millwall back. We don’t like it because it’s unusual / exceptional and feels unjust but is just that a judgement call we don’t appreciate.Any promise to learn and/or not repeat can’t be taken as a guarantee as circumstances and personnel can change.There might be some squirming from the club at the fans forum but I doubt we will learn anything new.They’d squirm more but you’d still not learn much.I just don’t think there is much to uncover.A poor decision / strategy that was poorly executed by both parties.The club were all /only about maximising ticket sales.Shame really they didn’t persuade Jones to take cup fixtures more seriously and generate some income that way 😉😆
How about these questions about how stewarding works for a start?- Do we have a senior executive with overall responsibility for safety
- Do we have a safety officer to plan and oversee the event day operation
- Do we have supervisory stewards to form a link in the chain of command between the safety officer and all other stewards
- Do we have stewards performing locational or functional roles
- Do we have a named individual with a responsibility for security?
Does seem some people on here (various, not just yourself, are willing away the possibility of serious answers to serious safety related issues.The wrong call was made in most (if not all) people’s opinions and I assume in the clubs too.Normally games pass without great issue.A different approach was used for this game which none of us liked and was very badly implemented.I don’t imagine there is much beyond that in the cold light of day -is my point
Do we need a club scapegoat when as far as I am aware I haven’t seen any reports of violence or serious incidents (Sam Bartram exit aside and separate to the decision to not hold Millwall back) ?
If on the other hand you are seeking answers to the Sam Bartram gate specifically then I speculate this is simply error as ordinarily that exit is not an issue.That is a genuine lesson learned for the club and police.3 -
I have enough friends and family that attended the game, and not one have complained about it, and when I asked, it was what you expect when you play Millwall... Yes, it wasn't policed that well, but I am sure there is a very good reason why they are using that method. And likely because, the impact of locking Millwall fans up, will likely fire them up, causing more trouble and damage.
For me, it isn't a big deal - and a lot are using this as an opportunity to have a dig at the club about it's communication.. For me, that has also been fine, they informed prior to the game, they have replied back to CAST letter.. And now awaiting investigation.. I am sure the police and Charlton have bigger fish to fry.. As I mentioned, for a local derby, it passed with little trouble, that will be seen as a success!4 -
JohnnyH2 said:
It would give a sense of perspective as being in the crowds on Harvey Gardens after the game was very different to anything I have seen at The Valley, and have not seen any videos of what it was like.BoPeepAddick said:
To be honest what’s that got to do with you, whether he attended or not!!Fanny Fanackapan said:
Out of interest, fellow Lifer, were you at the match last Saturday ?Major said:
Jesus Christ. Take a day off. Enough already.TootingRedArmy said:I think also the club are making a massive mistake thinking just because fans haven't written to club that it doesn't mean 20K fans who attended aren't angry at what happened. Most fans would have been furious that as Home fans they were treated this way & that it created an unsafe situation which thankfully no one was hurt .Our fans have quite rightly asked why Millwall fans were given special treatment to leave rather than be held back like the majority of clubs do with away fans as we are at The Den.
The violence in East Stand-Landsdown rd exit would have been witnessed by 100-150 Charlton fans, so of course vast majority didn't see it & also haven't seen it on social media as they weren't looking for it. I found it easily enough but as I was very close to fan who was kicked & punched lying on the staircase by 5-6 Millwall & even closer to our fan who was trying to passively and reason with Millwall fans and then punched, so i've been vocal on here, written to club, survey etc. I wrote suggesting positively that club in future reduce Millwalls tickets to 1000-1500, raise the price to offset lost revenue, put them in centre of JS & police and steward it properly next time & keep them in for 30-45mins till streets are clear.
The Club's SMT & Comms of course knew all this but took a calculated decision to not highlight arrangements before or during the match so to downplay it and likewise the violence in East Stand, hoping that it would go away. Thankfully Lifers have been universally vocal in how our fans were treated & it seems a number have written to the club & expressed their views on the Mickey mouse survey... so lets wait with baited breath for some cynical statement from the club passing the buck.
It just a real shame as this whole debacle has undone a lot of good work, as its clear the club's SMT don't care and for all tannoy annoucements thanking fans for getting behind the team, social media posts ramping up attendances, videos of Nathan pumping his fists to travelling supporters & Covered End. When it mattered with 20,000 fans safety and violence against our fans within the ground the SMT & Comms have gone AWOL. The club will have seen responses via emails and survey that the fans aren't happy, so lets see on Friday morning if someone finally within the club has the balls and intelligence to say right "we messed up'..... lets put out a proper statement and explain ourselves. Its not too late for the club to do this, but I'm not holding my breath this will happen.
Well done to the clubs SMT & Comms for scoring an own goal just when things were going so well .....
It's just that I thought you resided too far away to attend regularly....or at all .
Rubbish. The response was about the repeated posts on here. Nothing to do with the war in Harvey Gardens.0 -
If informing prior to the game is updating an old piece on a website with a link to a tweet from the Met then yes they did inform prior to the game.DubaiCAFC said:I have enough friends and family that attended the game, and not one have complained about it, and when I asked, it was what you expect when you play Millwall... Yes, it wasn't policed that well, but I am sure there is a very good reason why they are using that method. And likely because, the impact of locking Millwall fans up, will likely fire them up, causing more trouble and damage.
For me, it isn't a big deal - and a lot are using this as an opportunity to have a dig at the club about it's communication.. For me, that has also been fine, they informed prior to the game, they have replied back to CAST letter.. And now awaiting investigation.. I am sure the police and Charlton have bigger fish to fry.. As I mentioned, for a local derby, it passed with little trouble, that will be seen as a success!3 -
But you did.TootingRedArmy said:
You clearly put this up to provoke a reaction so i won't dignify it by responding .....DubaiCAFC said:Honestly, was it that bad? I get it, people was put out of there normal match day routine? It wasn't as if there was a huge riot, fans fighting all over the stadium.. There was a few scuffles, that you would expect in a local derby..
Really question sometimes, do people have nothing better to do, that moan and complain?
Here comes the backlash for this comment.0 -
There were many “serious incidents” in the Leppings Lane end before 1989, notably at semi finals in 1981, 1987 and 1988.PragueAddick said:
There were no "serious incidents" at the Leppings Lane end at Hillsborough .Until there was. Due mainly to complacency and arrogance on the part of the police. The best practice approach is to anticipate potential danger points, with the help of experienced professionals who have worked at the location for many years. Overruling their concerns and imposing an already tried (and failed) process on a venue at the last moment is the very antithesis of best practice.valleynick66 said:
I’m sure we tick all the necessary boxes as a club that are required.swords_alive said:
Not much to uncover you think @valleynick66?valleynick66 said:
Yes that’s true.shirty5 said:
You learn a lot from people’s body language. Normally a good barvalleynick66 said:
Agreed - that would be more entertaining!shirty5 said:
If it was an open Q and A down the club then maybe that would be differentvalleynick66 said:The reality of the Millwall game is known if we are honest.The police made the call and the club have to comply.The club royally mucked up in how they chose to advertise it and steward it post match vis a vis announcements.The police will have had a rationale for their decision to not keep Millwall back. We don’t like it because it’s unusual / exceptional and feels unjust but is just that a judgement call we don’t appreciate.Any promise to learn and/or not repeat can’t be taken as a guarantee as circumstances and personnel can change.There might be some squirming from the club at the fans forum but I doubt we will learn anything new.They’d squirm more but you’d still not learn much.I just don’t think there is much to uncover.A poor decision / strategy that was poorly executed by both parties.The club were all /only about maximising ticket sales.Shame really they didn’t persuade Jones to take cup fixtures more seriously and generate some income that way 😉😆
How about these questions about how stewarding works for a start?- Do we have a senior executive with overall responsibility for safety
- Do we have a safety officer to plan and oversee the event day operation
- Do we have supervisory stewards to form a link in the chain of command between the safety officer and all other stewards
- Do we have stewards performing locational or functional roles
- Do we have a named individual with a responsibility for security?
Does seem some people on here (various, not just yourself, are willing away the possibility of serious answers to serious safety related issues.The wrong call was made in most (if not all) people’s opinions and I assume in the clubs too.Normally games pass without great issue.A different approach was used for this game which none of us liked and was very badly implemented.I don’t imagine there is much beyond that in the cold light of day -is my point
Do we need a club scapegoat when as far as I am aware I haven’t seen any reports of violence or serious incidents (Sam Bartram exit aside and separate to the decision to not hold Millwall back) ?
If on the other hand you are seeking answers to the Sam Bartram gate specifically then I speculate this is simply error as ordinarily that exit is not an issue.That is a genuine lesson learned for the club and police.4 -
That is the point though. Unique to this fixture. We don’t otherwise see issues or have the relative inconvenience.DOUCHER said:
U make it sound like it was a one off decision - it happened at our last game against them as well - it’s something that doesn’t happen elsewhere and we shouldn’t stand for it - I’ll be pursuing it further if need be once I get a response from my police complaint as I’ve no faith in cast who completely missed the pointvalleynick66 said:The reality of the Millwall game is known if we are honest.The police made the call and the club have to comply.The club royally mucked up in how they chose to advertise it and steward it post match vis a vis announcements.The police will have had a rationale for their decision to not keep Millwall back. We don’t like it because it’s unusual / exceptional and feels unjust but is just that a judgement call we don’t appreciate.Any promise to learn and/or not repeat can’t be taken as a guarantee as circumstances and personnel can change.There might be some squirming from the club at the fans forum but I doubt we will learn anything new.It’s a reflection on Millwall. Fans.0 -
"Here comes the backlash for this comment" is real Facebook mum stuff.ValleyGary said:
Even signalled it was rage bait with the final sentence.TootingRedArmy said:
You clearly put this up to provoke a reaction so i won't dignify it by responding .....DubaiCAFC said:Honestly, was it that bad? I get it, people was put out of there normal match day routine? It wasn't as if there was a huge riot, fans fighting all over the stadium.. There was a few scuffles, that you would expect in a local derby..
Really question sometimes, do people have nothing better to do, that moan and complain?
Here comes the backlash for this comment.
Terrible effort - D-
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A rather large leap for this issue and far from the point I am making.PragueAddick said:
There were no "serious incidents" at the Leppings Lane end at Hillsborough .Until there was. Due mainly to complacency and arrogance on the part of the police. The best practice approach is to anticipate potential danger points, with the help of experienced professionals who have worked at the location for many years. Overruling their concerns and imposing an already tried (and failed) process on a venue at the last moment is the very antithesis of best practice.valleynick66 said:
I’m sure we tick all the necessary boxes as a club that are required.swords_alive said:
Not much to uncover you think @valleynick66?valleynick66 said:
Yes that’s true.shirty5 said:
You learn a lot from people’s body language. Normally a good barvalleynick66 said:
Agreed - that would be more entertaining!shirty5 said:
If it was an open Q and A down the club then maybe that would be differentvalleynick66 said:The reality of the Millwall game is known if we are honest.The police made the call and the club have to comply.The club royally mucked up in how they chose to advertise it and steward it post match vis a vis announcements.The police will have had a rationale for their decision to not keep Millwall back. We don’t like it because it’s unusual / exceptional and feels unjust but is just that a judgement call we don’t appreciate.Any promise to learn and/or not repeat can’t be taken as a guarantee as circumstances and personnel can change.There might be some squirming from the club at the fans forum but I doubt we will learn anything new.They’d squirm more but you’d still not learn much.I just don’t think there is much to uncover.A poor decision / strategy that was poorly executed by both parties.The club were all /only about maximising ticket sales.Shame really they didn’t persuade Jones to take cup fixtures more seriously and generate some income that way 😉😆
How about these questions about how stewarding works for a start?- Do we have a senior executive with overall responsibility for safety
- Do we have a safety officer to plan and oversee the event day operation
- Do we have supervisory stewards to form a link in the chain of command between the safety officer and all other stewards
- Do we have stewards performing locational or functional roles
- Do we have a named individual with a responsibility for security?
Does seem some people on here (various, not just yourself, are willing away the possibility of serious answers to serious safety related issues.The wrong call was made in most (if not all) people’s opinions and I assume in the clubs too.Normally games pass without great issue.A different approach was used for this game which none of us liked and was very badly implemented.I don’t imagine there is much beyond that in the cold light of day -is my point
Do we need a club scapegoat when as far as I am aware I haven’t seen any reports of violence or serious incidents (Sam Bartram exit aside and separate to the decision to not hold Millwall back) ?
If on the other hand you are seeking answers to the Sam Bartram gate specifically then I speculate this is simply error as ordinarily that exit is not an issue.That is a genuine lesson learned for the club and police.The decision to exit Millwall first / immediately is your (and most people’s) gripe.I don’t like it but that (decision not its execution) is not creating additional risk of injury or similar as far as I can see.To repeat poorly executed and communicated is self evident.I don’t see however what more some think is to be uncovered.A poor decision which is alien to usual practice that no doubt is based on the perception of Millwall behaving poorly.We are ‘victims’ of our relative good behaviour.Charlton Lane traffic management was an additional oversight someone might concede too. In truth that would be a good idea every game.0 - Sponsored links:
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Many thanks for the responseMajor said:JohnnyH2 said:
It would give a sense of perspective as being in the crowds on Harvey Gardens after the game was very different to anything I have seen at The Valley, and have not seen any videos of what it was like.BoPeepAddick said:
To be honest what’s that got to do with you, whether he attended or not!!Fanny Fanackapan said:
Out of interest, fellow Lifer, were you at the match last Saturday ?Major said:
Jesus Christ. Take a day off. Enough already.TootingRedArmy said:I think also the club are making a massive mistake thinking just because fans haven't written to club that it doesn't mean 20K fans who attended aren't angry at what happened. Most fans would have been furious that as Home fans they were treated this way & that it created an unsafe situation which thankfully no one was hurt .Our fans have quite rightly asked why Millwall fans were given special treatment to leave rather than be held back like the majority of clubs do with away fans as we are at The Den.
The violence in East Stand-Landsdown rd exit would have been witnessed by 100-150 Charlton fans, so of course vast majority didn't see it & also haven't seen it on social media as they weren't looking for it. I found it easily enough but as I was very close to fan who was kicked & punched lying on the staircase by 5-6 Millwall & even closer to our fan who was trying to passively and reason with Millwall fans and then punched, so i've been vocal on here, written to club, survey etc. I wrote suggesting positively that club in future reduce Millwalls tickets to 1000-1500, raise the price to offset lost revenue, put them in centre of JS & police and steward it properly next time & keep them in for 30-45mins till streets are clear.
The Club's SMT & Comms of course knew all this but took a calculated decision to not highlight arrangements before or during the match so to downplay it and likewise the violence in East Stand, hoping that it would go away. Thankfully Lifers have been universally vocal in how our fans were treated & it seems a number have written to the club & expressed their views on the Mickey mouse survey... so lets wait with baited breath for some cynical statement from the club passing the buck.
It just a real shame as this whole debacle has undone a lot of good work, as its clear the club's SMT don't care and for all tannoy annoucements thanking fans for getting behind the team, social media posts ramping up attendances, videos of Nathan pumping his fists to travelling supporters & Covered End. When it mattered with 20,000 fans safety and violence against our fans within the ground the SMT & Comms have gone AWOL. The club will have seen responses via emails and survey that the fans aren't happy, so lets see on Friday morning if someone finally within the club has the balls and intelligence to say right "we messed up'..... lets put out a proper statement and explain ourselves. Its not too late for the club to do this, but I'm not holding my breath this will happen.
Well done to the clubs SMT & Comms for scoring an own goal just when things were going so well .....
It's just that I thought you resided too far away to attend regularly....or at all .
Rubbish. The response was about the repeated posts on here. Nothing to do with the war in Harvey Gardens.0 -
To be honest,when you look back at footage from the 80s and see the masses of people crammed in the standing areas behind the goals,it is a wonder many more serious accidents did not occur.SporadicAddick said:
There were many “serious incidents” in the Leppings Lane end before 1989, notably at semi finals in 1981, 1987 and 1988.PragueAddick said:
There were no "serious incidents" at the Leppings Lane end at Hillsborough .Until there was. Due mainly to complacency and arrogance on the part of the police. The best practice approach is to anticipate potential danger points, with the help of experienced professionals who have worked at the location for many years. Overruling their concerns and imposing an already tried (and failed) process on a venue at the last moment is the very antithesis of best practice.valleynick66 said:
I’m sure we tick all the necessary boxes as a club that are required.swords_alive said:
Not much to uncover you think @valleynick66?valleynick66 said:
Yes that’s true.shirty5 said:
You learn a lot from people’s body language. Normally a good barvalleynick66 said:
Agreed - that would be more entertaining!shirty5 said:
If it was an open Q and A down the club then maybe that would be differentvalleynick66 said:The reality of the Millwall game is known if we are honest.The police made the call and the club have to comply.The club royally mucked up in how they chose to advertise it and steward it post match vis a vis announcements.The police will have had a rationale for their decision to not keep Millwall back. We don’t like it because it’s unusual / exceptional and feels unjust but is just that a judgement call we don’t appreciate.Any promise to learn and/or not repeat can’t be taken as a guarantee as circumstances and personnel can change.There might be some squirming from the club at the fans forum but I doubt we will learn anything new.They’d squirm more but you’d still not learn much.I just don’t think there is much to uncover.A poor decision / strategy that was poorly executed by both parties.The club were all /only about maximising ticket sales.Shame really they didn’t persuade Jones to take cup fixtures more seriously and generate some income that way 😉😆
How about these questions about how stewarding works for a start?- Do we have a senior executive with overall responsibility for safety
- Do we have a safety officer to plan and oversee the event day operation
- Do we have supervisory stewards to form a link in the chain of command between the safety officer and all other stewards
- Do we have stewards performing locational or functional roles
- Do we have a named individual with a responsibility for security?
Does seem some people on here (various, not just yourself, are willing away the possibility of serious answers to serious safety related issues.The wrong call was made in most (if not all) people’s opinions and I assume in the clubs too.Normally games pass without great issue.A different approach was used for this game which none of us liked and was very badly implemented.I don’t imagine there is much beyond that in the cold light of day -is my point
Do we need a club scapegoat when as far as I am aware I haven’t seen any reports of violence or serious incidents (Sam Bartram exit aside and separate to the decision to not hold Millwall back) ?
If on the other hand you are seeking answers to the Sam Bartram gate specifically then I speculate this is simply error as ordinarily that exit is not an issue.That is a genuine lesson learned for the club and police.0 -
People on here with opinions that weren’t there, obviously weren’t there. We should be able to visit the Valley as usual whether it’s Millwall or not (I appreciate that there needs to be a larger police presence and extra segregation etc). Why should we have to suffer when there are families, older people, kids etc etc. just going to a home game.
My main issues were :
1. They let Millwall fans out first to give them exclusive use of the station, but many didn’t and just wandered past. Just keep them back, it happens to us there and occasionally other places (it’s part of being an away fan I’m afraid).2. The south/east gate wasn’t policed, despite the huge police presence outside and the only real place within the stadium that home and away fans could get near eachother.
3. The assumption by many on here is that IF Millwall were kept in, it would somehow enrage them to cause trouble. If that’s the case, then police them properly and ban/reduce allocation if they are really that bad. That’s not ‘our’ problem.4. The congestion after the game could have become a serious situation, with the vast majority of 20k+ Charlton fans exiting on Harvey Gardens all heading to the end of one road. Had there been any kind of incident (not necessarily football related) towards Charlton Lane, then where would this crowd have gone? Surely having one way out for the majority was insane. Better to iron out these issues now rather than wait for something serious to actually happen.5. The lack of communication and crowd control post match was shocking and an accident waiting to happen. Not just communication to the fans, but the police had no idea either what was going on.
6. There should have been police in the ground, as many Charlton fans seem to think it’s fair to give their Millwall mates tickets in the home end.
I know most of this has been covered before, but the comments from people on here (mostly not there) who think this it’s just part of a Millwall/derby day experience are way off the mark.11 -
Nick, nick .....Algarveaddick said:Doesn't Jim Davidson live in Dubai?1 -
Very offensive that!Algarveaddick said:Doesn't Jim Davidson live in Dubai?1 -
DubaiCAFC said:I have enough friends and family that attended the game, and not one have complained about it, and when I asked, it was what you expect when you play Millwall... Yes, it wasn't policed that well, but I am sure there is a very good reason why they are using that method. And likely because, the impact of locking Millwall fans up, will likely fire them up, causing more trouble and damage.
For me, it isn't a big deal - and a lot are using this as an opportunity to have a dig at the club about it's communication.. For me, that has also been fine, they informed prior to the game, they have replied back to CAST letter.. And now awaiting investigation.. I am sure the police and Charlton have bigger fish to fry.. As I mentioned, for a local derby, it passed with little trouble, that will be seen as0 -
Wasn’t that bad but I don’t see why we should be inconvenienced at the expense of Millwall - that is all I care about - it happened once before and it’s happened again and if we don’t take appropriate measures then it’s gonna happen again - put up or shut up - if we don’t do something about it then we will just have to shut up and take itDubaiCAFC said:Honestly, was it that bad? I get it, people was put out of there normal match day routine? It wasn't as if there was a huge riot, fans fighting all over the stadium.. There was a few scuffles, that you would expect in a local derby..
Really question sometimes, do people have nothing better to do, that moan and complain?
Here comes the backlash for this comment.1 -
It’s boring now - it doesn’t happen at any other ground that host Millwall - got it now ?valleynick66 said:
That is the point though. Unique to this fixture. We don’t otherwise see issues or have the relative inconvenience.DOUCHER said:
U make it sound like it was a one off decision - it happened at our last game against them as well - it’s something that doesn’t happen elsewhere and we shouldn’t stand for it - I’ll be pursuing it further if need be once I get a response from my police complaint as I’ve no faith in cast who completely missed the pointvalleynick66 said:The reality of the Millwall game is known if we are honest.The police made the call and the club have to comply.The club royally mucked up in how they chose to advertise it and steward it post match vis a vis announcements.The police will have had a rationale for their decision to not keep Millwall back. We don’t like it because it’s unusual / exceptional and feels unjust but is just that a judgement call we don’t appreciate.Any promise to learn and/or not repeat can’t be taken as a guarantee as circumstances and personnel can change.There might be some squirming from the club at the fans forum but I doubt we will learn anything new.It’s a reflection on Millwall. Fans.0 -
Apart from SelhurstDOUCHER said:
It’s boring now - it doesn’t happen at any other ground that host Millwall - got it now ?valleynick66 said:
That is the point though. Unique to this fixture. We don’t otherwise see issues or have the relative inconvenience.DOUCHER said:
U make it sound like it was a one off decision - it happened at our last game against them as well - it’s something that doesn’t happen elsewhere and we shouldn’t stand for it - I’ll be pursuing it further if need be once I get a response from my police complaint as I’ve no faith in cast who completely missed the pointvalleynick66 said:The reality of the Millwall game is known if we are honest.The police made the call and the club have to comply.The club royally mucked up in how they chose to advertise it and steward it post match vis a vis announcements.The police will have had a rationale for their decision to not keep Millwall back. We don’t like it because it’s unusual / exceptional and feels unjust but is just that a judgement call we don’t appreciate.Any promise to learn and/or not repeat can’t be taken as a guarantee as circumstances and personnel can change.There might be some squirming from the club at the fans forum but I doubt we will learn anything new.It’s a reflection on Millwall. Fans.0 -
Why is Jim Davidson living in Dubai offensive?DubaiCAFC said:
Very offensive that!Algarveaddick said:Doesn't Jim Davidson live in Dubai?4 - Sponsored links:
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We were not ‘held back’ in the true sense of the word.Ducktapeshoerepairs said:
You are hilarious. Presume you weren’t at the gameSoundAsa£ said:
Were we held back……I don’t think so.🤔DOUCHER said:
Yes. The fact it (home team being held back, not the away team) happens at no other game in the country? Isn't that the key point? It’s not just unusual, it’s unique to us!!! and it shouldn't happen and we need to point that fact out and expose the decision for the 'path of least resistance bollox that it is - we shouldn't put up with it - no other club does!! Strewth.bobmunro said:DOUCHER said:
My mistake re you and cast. But surely its obvious - CAST have a platform, a voice that should be heard and represent us hence my exasperation with them missing the main point- i have sent an email to the club, and am looking for the contact details for the police. I'll also fill out the survey.aliwibble said:DOUCHER said:
because nowhere in any of your questions have u asked why they, the police, thought that would be the right solution when iot doesn't happen at any other ground? the club must know the answer to that surely? this wouldn't happen in a rangers celtic, villa birmingham or man utd liverpool match so how the hell has it been allowed to happen here - again ? uselessaliwibble said:DOUCHER said:when you don't ask the right questions, you allow bland generic bollox like that to be the answer - 'take it up with the police, we're not telling you the reason why we rolled over and allowed our home fans to be fucked over again at the expense of millwall fans and you never asked us that anyway so why would we offer that information up' - cast, your useless.Why do you keep giving CAST grief for the fuckups of the Police and the club? The obvious answer to why the club "rolled over" and didn't keep the Millwall fans in is that they needed the Police agreement to do that. Or were you expecting the stewards to keep 3000 pissed off Millwall fans in the Jimmy Seed without any police support? Would we even have had a safety certificate for the match if we didn't agree the policing arrangements for the game with the Met? And the club has no control over how the Police decide to deal with fans once they've left the ground.Given that a similar stupid strategy appears to have been used at Palace v Millwall that seems to indicate that the driving force behind the decision was the Met and not the club. The club has handled (and continues to handle) the communications very poorly, could possibly have done better with stewarding by the gate that got broken through, but the bigger villain of the piece is whichever idiot in the Met decided that this was a good plan.My questions? I'm only a random supporter not a member of the CAST board, and they have asked the Police why the decision was taken not to hold the visiting supporters back when that's what is usually done. I'm just puzzled by you continually directing your frustration at fellow fans that are trying to get answers on our behalf, rather than the people who made the decisions in the first place.
I realise that I'm probably wasting my time, but hey ho - did you not see the email sent to the police from CAST? What main point was missing from that email? Genuine question.
Yes, we were hugely inconvenienced and redirected
but not held back…… as in locked in.
Having been held back at The Spanners for 45 minutes on two occasions, that is what I term as held back.
Yes……I was certainly at the game, but was allowed to use Ransom Walk because of my circumstances.0 -
I don’t post on here very often at all and I haven’t read all the other comments on this subject coming into the thread with Dubai’s post. I did attend the Millwall game and sat in the Upper West. Early in my career I served as a fire fighter in Liverpool and saw a few games at the Old Kop and experienced the crowds after those matches. My observation after the Millwall game was as follows:- knowing the decision was to close Floyd Rd to Charlton fans after the match I came out fully expecting to turn right along Harvey Gardens and then head back up to Charlton Park Rd. As I’m 6ft 4 I could see pretty much the situation down Harvey Gardens. My decision? Not a chance was I walking down there. No way. It hadn’t developed into a crush situation and maybe never would have but all it needed was a fight, a heart attack or a fall. Any and more situations like that and there could have been a serious incident, maybe a fatality. So I turned left walked up to the police barrier, sat on a wall chatted to a police officer and one of the other fans until the barrier was lifted after about 20 minutes. Then walked home. My first match at the Valley was between 1964/5. Serious crowds then, but no issues that I can remember because all the exits were open. My belief is that the Millwall fans should have been kept back. I don’t like seeing a situation develop where the outcome relies on luck when people’s lives are at stake.DubaiCAFC said:I have enough friends and family that attended the game, and not one have complained about it, and when I asked, it was what you expect when you play Millwall... Yes, it wasn't policed that well, but I am sure there is a very good reason why they are using that method. And likely because, the impact of locking Millwall fans up, will likely fire them up, causing more trouble and damage.
For me, it isn't a big deal - and a lot are using this as an opportunity to have a dig at the club about it's communication.. For me, that has also been fine, they informed prior to the game, they have replied back to CAST letter.. And now awaiting investigation.. I am sure the police and Charlton have bigger fish to fry.. As I mentioned, for a local derby, it passed with little trouble, that will be seen as a success!6 -
Implying that I am Jim Davidson!KBslittlesis said:
Why is Jim Davidson living in Dubai offensive?DubaiCAFC said:
Very offensive that!Algarveaddick said:Doesn't Jim Davidson live in Dubai?1 -
I don’t post on here very often at all and I haven’t read all the other comments on this subject coming into the thread with Dubai’s post. I did attend the Millwall game and sat in the Upper West. Early in my career I served as a fire fighter in Liverpool and saw a few games at the Old Kop and experienced the crowds after those matches. My observation after the Millwall game was as follows:- knowing the decision was to close Floyd Rd to Charlton fans after the match I came out fully expecting to turn right along Harvey Gardens and then head back up to Charlton Park Rd. As I’m 6ft 4 I could see pretty much the situation down Harvey Gardens. My decision? Not a chance was I walking down there. No way. It hadn’t developed into a crush situation and maybe never would have but all it needed was a fight, a heart attack or a fall. Any and more situations like that and there could have been a serious incident, maybe a fatality. So I turned left walked up to the police barrier, sat on a wall chatted to a police officer and one of the other fans until the barrier was lifted after about 20 minutes. Then walked home. My first match at the Valley was between 1964/5. Serious crowds then, but no issues that I can remember because all the exits were open. My belief is that the Millwall fans should have been kept back. I don’t like seeing a situation develop where the outcome relies on luck when people’s lives are at stake.
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Sorry I posted this twice. Shows I’m not a regular!!3
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I get that.. but it's not as if people wasn't aware it was going to happen! They have found a successful way of getting the Millwall fans away, with little trouble. They will see that as a win. They are not going to be overly worried about a few 100 Charlton fans complaining on forums and social media are they?DOUCHER said:
Wasn’t that bad but I don’t see why we should be inconvenienced at the expense of Millwall - that is all I care about - it happened once before and it’s happened again and if we don’t take appropriate measures then it’s gonna happen again - put up or shut up - if we don’t do something about it then we will just have to shut up and take itDubaiCAFC said:Honestly, was it that bad? I get it, people was put out of there normal match day routine? It wasn't as if there was a huge riot, fans fighting all over the stadium.. There was a few scuffles, that you would expect in a local derby..
Really question sometimes, do people have nothing better to do, that moan and complain?
Here comes the backlash for this comment.
They have bigger fish to fry..1 -
Agree……though the club should be worried.DubaiCAFC said:
I get that.. but it's not as if people wasn't aware it was going to happen! They have found a successful way of getting the Millwall fans away, with little trouble. They will see that as a win. They are not going to be overly worried about a few 100 Charlton fans complaining on forums and social media are they?DOUCHER said:
Wasn’t that bad but I don’t see why we should be inconvenienced at the expense of Millwall - that is all I care about - it happened once before and it’s happened again and if we don’t take appropriate measures then it’s gonna happen again - put up or shut up - if we don’t do something about it then we will just have to shut up and take itDubaiCAFC said:Honestly, was it that bad? I get it, people was put out of there normal match day routine? It wasn't as if there was a huge riot, fans fighting all over the stadium.. There was a few scuffles, that you would expect in a local derby..
Really question sometimes, do people have nothing better to do, that moan and complain?
Here comes the backlash for this comment.
They have bigger fish to fry..1 -
The problem was that a lot of people clearly weren't aware that it was going to happen, which meant that they were trying to go the normal way to the station against the flow of thousands walking towards Charlton Lane.DubaiCAFC said:
I get that.. but it's not as if people wasn't aware it was going to happen! They have found a successful way of getting the Millwall fans away, with little trouble. They will see that as a win. They are not going to be overly worried about a few 100 Charlton fans complaining on forums and social media are they?DOUCHER said:
Wasn’t that bad but I don’t see why we should be inconvenienced at the expense of Millwall - that is all I care about - it happened once before and it’s happened again and if we don’t take appropriate measures then it’s gonna happen again - put up or shut up - if we don’t do something about it then we will just have to shut up and take itDubaiCAFC said:Honestly, was it that bad? I get it, people was put out of there normal match day routine? It wasn't as if there was a huge riot, fans fighting all over the stadium.. There was a few scuffles, that you would expect in a local derby..
Really question sometimes, do people have nothing better to do, that moan and complain?
Here comes the backlash for this comment.
They have bigger fish to fry..
It would only have taken someone to trip or lose their footing amongst the mass of bodies and they could have ended up seriously hurt or worse and who knows what knock on effects it may have caused.
It was just completely unnecessary to put 20,000 Charlton fans at risk to make things easier for the police. They get held in at other grounds around the country, so why not here?9 -
Indeed.JohnnyH2 said:
Many thanks for the responseMajor said:JohnnyH2 said:
It would give a sense of perspective as being in the crowds on Harvey Gardens after the game was very different to anything I have seen at The Valley, and have not seen any videos of what it was like.BoPeepAddick said:
To be honest what’s that got to do with you, whether he attended or not!!Fanny Fanackapan said:
Out of interest, fellow Lifer, were you at the match last Saturday ?Major said:
Jesus Christ. Take a day off. Enough already.TootingRedArmy said:I think also the club are making a massive mistake thinking just because fans haven't written to club that it doesn't mean 20K fans who attended aren't angry at what happened. Most fans would have been furious that as Home fans they were treated this way & that it created an unsafe situation which thankfully no one was hurt .Our fans have quite rightly asked why Millwall fans were given special treatment to leave rather than be held back like the majority of clubs do with away fans as we are at The Den.
The violence in East Stand-Landsdown rd exit would have been witnessed by 100-150 Charlton fans, so of course vast majority didn't see it & also haven't seen it on social media as they weren't looking for it. I found it easily enough but as I was very close to fan who was kicked & punched lying on the staircase by 5-6 Millwall & even closer to our fan who was trying to passively and reason with Millwall fans and then punched, so i've been vocal on here, written to club, survey etc. I wrote suggesting positively that club in future reduce Millwalls tickets to 1000-1500, raise the price to offset lost revenue, put them in centre of JS & police and steward it properly next time & keep them in for 30-45mins till streets are clear.
The Club's SMT & Comms of course knew all this but took a calculated decision to not highlight arrangements before or during the match so to downplay it and likewise the violence in East Stand, hoping that it would go away. Thankfully Lifers have been universally vocal in how our fans were treated & it seems a number have written to the club & expressed their views on the Mickey mouse survey... so lets wait with baited breath for some cynical statement from the club passing the buck.
It just a real shame as this whole debacle has undone a lot of good work, as its clear the club's SMT don't care and for all tannoy annoucements thanking fans for getting behind the team, social media posts ramping up attendances, videos of Nathan pumping his fists to travelling supporters & Covered End. When it mattered with 20,000 fans safety and violence against our fans within the ground the SMT & Comms have gone AWOL. The club will have seen responses via emails and survey that the fans aren't happy, so lets see on Friday morning if someone finally within the club has the balls and intelligence to say right "we messed up'..... lets put out a proper statement and explain ourselves. Its not too late for the club to do this, but I'm not holding my breath this will happen.
Well done to the clubs SMT & Comms for scoring an own goal just when things were going so well .....
It's just that I thought you resided too far away to attend regularly....or at all .
Rubbish. The response was about the repeated posts on here. Nothing to do with the war in Harvey Gardens.
A very full & informative response to a query merely asking whether said Lifer had in fact attended the game.
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Add to that list that it was absolutely ridiculous to funnel 20k fans onto Charlton Lane and not close Charlton Lane to traffic. It was one impatient/frustrated driver away from tragedy.Ducktapeshoerepairs said:People on here with opinions that weren’t there, obviously weren’t there. We should be able to visit the Valley as usual whether it’s Millwall or not (I appreciate that there needs to be a larger police presence and extra segregation etc). Why should we have to suffer when there are families, older people, kids etc etc. just going to a home game.
My main issues were :
1. They let Millwall fans out first to give them exclusive use of the station, but many didn’t and just wandered past. Just keep them back, it happens to us there and occasionally other places (it’s part of being an away fan I’m afraid).2. The south/east gate wasn’t policed, despite the huge police presence outside and the only real place within the stadium that home and away fans could get near eachother.
3. The assumption by many on here is that IF Millwall were kept in, it would somehow enrage them to cause trouble. If that’s the case, then police them properly and ban/reduce allocation if they are really that bad. That’s not ‘our’ problem.4. The congestion after the game could have become a serious situation, with the vast majority of 20k+ Charlton fans exiting on Harvey Gardens all heading to the end of one road. Had there been any kind of incident (not necessarily football related) towards Charlton Lane, then where would this crowd have gone? Surely having one way out for the majority was insane. Better to iron out these issues now rather than wait for something serious to actually happen.5. The lack of communication and crowd control post match was shocking and an accident waiting to happen. Not just communication to the fans, but the police had no idea either what was going on.
6. There should have been police in the ground, as many Charlton fans seem to think it’s fair to give their Millwall mates tickets in the home end.
I know most of this has been covered before, but the comments from people on here (mostly not there) who think this it’s just part of a Millwall/derby day experience are way off the mark.5
