EFL Playoffs 25/26 (Saints booted out of final and given 4 point deduction - pg34)

guinnessaddick

TellyTubby

Sky Sports News only talking about Arsenal. Surely this is a bigger story?

At least i think that it is.

Er_Be_Ab_Pl_Wo_Wo_Ch

If admitting spying on 3 games gets you kicked out the playoffs. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that if it turns out they were at this frequently since Eckert joined - and especially as they haven't now confessed when given this opportunity - they'd be demoted and Oxford reprieved. Southampton in lodging this appeal must be very careful there aren't further skeletons in the closet.

ElliotCAFC

They probably spied on us before the 5-1 game. They almost certainly spied on every single team they faced. 

Utterly ridiculous and you could argue they’ve got off lightly. 

bobmunro

LargeAddick said:

PragueAddick said:

People have admitted thier surprise, having previously forecast a cop-out, but I think we should all go a bit further and give the EFL a lot of credit for showing some bollocks when there were various plausible ways they could have bottled it.

Sends a message to the Premier League, especially with the Regulator settling in. The EFL have some political credit now, and that is good news for us as an EFL Championship club. 

It was an Independent Panel that heard the evidence and decided the punishment wasn’t it?

Yes it was - but an independent panel called by the EFL to consider EFL charges. My understanding is that there were two interested parties represented at the panel - the EFL as the charge bringer (prosecutor) and Southampton as the defendant (that's why 'boro were not listed as one of the interested parties). The EFL would have been arguing for the punishment dished out.

In the vast majority of situations the EFL seem to be about as much use as a chocolate teapot but they do deserve credit for this.

Also, they know, Southampton know they know, as do I'm sure the three members of the panel know that admitting to the other two was a cynical ploy defence - "look, we did it to these two teams and what good did it do us?" - funny how both Oxford and Ipswich have no reasonable grounds for comeback. They have almost certainly been doing it since Eckert took over in December.

Deliberate and systematic multiple breaches of an EFL regulation - they have got what they deserved as a club but I do have sympathy for the majority of Southampton fans.

Blucher

Justice has been done and I can’t see that an appeal has any realistic chance of success, given the sound policy reasons for imposing a deterrent sentence. 

It’s been suggested that the EFL are hoping that  an appeal can be dealt with by a new  tribunal on Wednesday. That feels a stretch but presumably an appeal body was set up in anticipation and any appeal submissions can be made immediately.

Southampton would have to demonstrate that the Tribunal’s punishment was disproportionate, in the sense that it was irrational or one that no reasonable tribunal could have imposed in the circumstances. That feels like a complete non-starter, especially given that spying on Boro was not an isolated incident.

I think I read that Boro may have came up with the evidence that two other Championship clubs had been affected. Given that this was, apparently, an established practice at Southampton, it seems far-fetched to believe that only 3 clubs were affected. We shall see.

Heads will surely roll, with bans to follow - and rightly so. 

Callumcafc

Bedsaddick

What a shit show . 

There’s absolutely no way their manager can keep is job. Even if it wasn’t his initial idea he would have known it was going on . 

I just feel sorry for the fans . 

Rothko

TellyTubby said:

Sky Sports News only talking about Arsenal. Surely this is a bigger story?

At least i think that it is.

This story will run for weeks 

Er_Be_Ab_Pl_Wo_Wo_Ch

Just reading a bit more on this, I now realise the golf course where the spy parked, got changed, and ran off to when approached ... is owned by Boro owner Steve Gibson. The silly sod of a spy thereby providing Boro with ample cctv footage before and after. Incredible.

Rock Spectacle

Don't know if I've missed anything mentioned but could this be deemed a more serious breach of rules than financial irregularities, entering administration etc. Points deductions for that alone seem to be ad hoc in themselves. Given the money involved this is the tip of the iceberg as it will reverberate across the EFL as more will come to light no doubt. Admittedly they knew from first hand experience how NJ sets up but can't imagine any other team of his has let in 5 at home in half an hour 

BalladMan

Er_Be_Ab_Pl_Wo_Wo_Ch said:

Just reading a bit more on this, I now realise the golf course where the spy parked, got changed, and ran off to when approached ... is owned by Boro owner Steve Gibson. The silly sod of a spy thereby providing Boro with ample cctv footage before and after. Incredible.

It is worst espionage of all time.  James bond it ain't for the saint(s)

Rothko

Don’t forget the EFL don’t pass down the sentence, it’s an independent organisation that does it 

The Red Robin

Er_Be_Ab_Pl_Wo_Wo_Ch said:

Just reading a bit more on this, I now realise the golf course where the spy parked, got changed, and ran off to when approached ... is owned by Boro owner Steve Gibson. The silly sod of a spy thereby providing Boro with ample cctv footage before and after. Incredible.

And used his card to buy a coffee apparently.

Fumbluff

golfaddick said:

fenaddick said:

Should be more point deductions. 2 lots of 4, making 12 in total. 

Wait, wait, just so I’m clear, you’re the financial advisor and you’re telling me that 2 lots of 4 makes 12?

Briston_Addick

Fumbluff said:

golfaddick said:

fenaddick said:

Should be more point deductions. 2 lots of 4, making 12 in total. 

Wait, wait, just so I’m clear, you’re the financial advisor and you’re telling me that 2 lots of 4 makes 12?

Giving Golfie the benefit of the doubt I asume he meant another two lots of four points i.e. four points for each match they've admitted to.

philcafc

Presuming Southampton don't win their appeal i will be amazed if Eckert isn't immediately sacked, if he doesn't resign first.

jimmymelrose

Gillis said:

fenaddick said:

Thoughts and prayers with the Boro ticket office 

And to all Boro fans now experiencing domestic strife as a result of hastily rearranged weekend plans.

On the Middlesbrough forum there’s one fan saying that he can’t get a babysitter for his 3 year old that weekend. 

Exiled_Addick

SDAddick said:

Wow. I've just got back from doctor's appointment to see the news. I really didn't think the EFL would do this. I'm in a bit of shock. The appeal should be interesting. 

I kind of feel like Soton won it on the pitch, regardless of the help, so results on the pitch should be upheld. But I think I'm also more Laissez-Faire about the whole cheating thing. I think it's something with a very finite benefit.

I can't see the final taking place on Saturday at this rate. Southampton will appeal and I can't imagine a decision is made quickly enough for the final to go ahead.

We're in uncharted territory!

I think it’s easy to over state, hard to get quantify, and difficult to prove how much of an advantage Soton will have gained from this. But in the age of cumulative marginal gains, and the difference between winning and losing often so fine, it’s plausible that this was a factor in them picking up some points they wouldn’t otherwise have accumulated.

It’s also debatable how heinous of a crime this is compared to the much more common forms of cheating like diving and exaggerating fouls which, between dodgy penalties and debatable sending offs, probably have more of an impact on results than some distant photos of players training.

However, there is something to be said for the idea that premeditated, organized, and club management sanctioned cheating, like this, is a particularly egregious departure from the sporting spirit of the game in a way that is worse than a striker going down easily in the penalty box in the heat of the moment. Because of that, I think it’s right the EFL are trying to make an example of Soton, but it is interesting why this has got everyone so outraged when cheating of one form or another is going on all the time without the same level of collective vexation.

As they say - if you aren’t cheating, you aren’t trying. Not that that makes it right or okay. Nor does it mean you shouldn’t have to face the consequences if you get caught. 

SDAddick

fenaddick said:

Eckert might be in hot water...

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/tonda-eckert-southampton-spying-scandal-b2979852.html

Oh there's no way he keeps his job. He can't, ban or not. If you're the club, you can't have him as the head of your club. Either he didn't know about it (doubt it) and he was being undermined by an intern, or he did know about it, and he just cost your team the Playoff Final*.

*Appeal not withstanding.

ShootersHillGuru said:

SDAddick said:

Wow. I've just got back from doctor's appointment to see the news. I really didn't think the EFL would do this. I'm in a bit of shock. The appeal should be interesting. 

I kind of feel like Soton won it on the pitch, regardless of the help, so results on the pitch should be upheld. But I think I'm also more Laissez-Faire about the whole cheating thing. I think it's something with a very finite benefit.

I can't see the final taking place on Saturday at this rate. Southampton will appeal and I can't imagine a decision is made quickly enough for the final to go ahead.

We're in uncharted territory!

So there is some benefit gained by cheating. You’re ok with that ?

I wouldn't necessarily say that. I would say that the benefit does not equate to the punishment. And I'm not faulting the EFL for that, it's more the equation on the cost-benefit analysis by Southampton (whoever made that decision) does not pan out. I'm more like "that's a huge punishment for a marginal gain," does that make more sense?

I'm also not convinced Southampton are the only side that do this, I just think they're the ones who got caught. We know it's prevalent in Germany and generally on the continent. Again, doesn't make it right, but I also feel like this is something that's tough to regulate out of the game (though the EFL sure is giving it a good go).

jimmymelrose

jimmymelrose said:

Very often in football a club gets a punishment and you can feel sorry for the fans.

Firstly,   players who celebrated their goal using a binocular gesture should be fined for bringing the game into disrepute. 

I’ve seen photos of several different Southampton fans with binoculars at the match as if this is all some big joke. Some of these fans are adults and others are kids under the responsibility of an adult. If they think it’s so funny, I’d like their team to get thrown out of the final, and then see a photo of them, most likely  in the same seats watching Championship football next season. 

Southampton, generally,  don’t seem to be taking this seriously at all. I think Middlesbrough should be in the final and Southampton should compensate Hull City, and compensate Hull City fans if the match gets moved as a result. 

I'm quoting my own post because one wish has come true. It would be great to see the other two, now in bold, do so too.

LargeAddick

SDAddick said:

fenaddick said:

Eckert might be in hot water...

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/tonda-eckert-southampton-spying-scandal-b2979852.html

Oh there's no way he keeps his job. He can't, ban or not. If you're the club, you can't have him as the head of your club. Either he didn't know about it (doubt it) and he was being undermined by an intern, or he did know about it, and he just cost your team the Playoff Final*.

*Appeal not withstanding.

ShootersHillGuru said:

SDAddick said:

Wow. I've just got back from doctor's appointment to see the news. I really didn't think the EFL would do this. I'm in a bit of shock. The appeal should be interesting. 

I kind of feel like Soton won it on the pitch, regardless of the help, so results on the pitch should be upheld. But I think I'm also more Laissez-Faire about the whole cheating thing. I think it's something with a very finite benefit.

I can't see the final taking place on Saturday at this rate. Southampton will appeal and I can't imagine a decision is made quickly enough for the final to go ahead.

We're in uncharted territory!

So there is some benefit gained by cheating. You’re ok with that ?

I wouldn't necessarily say that. I would say that the benefit does not equate to the punishment. And I'm not faulting the EFL for that, it's more the equation on the cost-benefit analysis by Southampton (whoever made that decision) does not pan out. I'm more like "that's a huge punishment for a marginal gain," does that make more sense?

I'm also not convinced Southampton are the only side that do this, I just think they're the ones who got caught. We know it's prevalent in Germany and generally on the continent. Again, doesn't make it right, but I also feel like this is something that's tough to regulate out of the game (though the EFL sure is giving it a good go).

A caveat to that is that the specific rule says such action is not permitted within 72 hours of a game so yes it may go on (although with all the data, analysis etc these days I doubt it’s widespread) but if you still do it and get caught out you have to face the consequences. I think the punishment is spot on. It will be interesting to see how this pans out within Southampton FC itself. Heads will undoubtedly roll and whose heads roll will point towards who was stupidly complicit in all this. I can’t see how Eckert, Garner etc survive this and were people like the CEO in the know?

SantaClaus

What I really don't understand is why send a gormless intern with an iPhone to spy on opponents? Why not do it with an untraceable drone controlled by someone sitting in a vehicle a couple of miles away?

sunbury-addick

Think it would have been easier to award the first leg 3-0 to Boro, seems a standard result of cheating. Then 4 points for other offences

Rock Spectacle

Well Garner certainly needed binoculars to see the mess he created during his at least mercifully brief tenure with us when it was clearly visible to the naked eye he was clueless. This really isn't over by a long time, statement of the obvious 

JohnnyJoeyDeeDee

New version of the Cranberries song when we play Saints next season ‘He’s in your hedge, he’s in your hedge’

jonno

For those who question the benefit of spying... listen to the question and response from James Bree in this interview (from around 1min 20 seconds) - I wonder if this is a clue? James Bree: Southampton defender on return to Tonda Eckert's side - BBC Sport  

DRAddick

Fumbluff said:

golfaddick said:

fenaddick said:

Should be more point deductions. 2 lots of 4, making 12 in total. 

Wait, wait, just so I’m clear, you’re the financial advisor and you’re telling me that 2 lots of 4 makes 12?

Don't think he's ever claimed to be a good one to be fair?

MuttleyCAFC

I suspect they spied on more than Oxford and Ipswich. They have admitted those two as, conveniently, it doesn't affect anything directly in the table. Ipswich got promoted and were way behind Coventry and Oxford finished four points below West Brom. I suspect, they knew it would come out that it wasn't a one off and admitting to only two, they thought would be less damaging in terms of punishment and might prevent the EFL digging further. I said this before it came out that they almost certainly will have history of doing it under this manager. Whatever anybody says, including ex players, it absolutely gives them a potential advantage. Why Oxford and not some other club? If it does come out, they may face a much stiffer punishment than minus four points next season.

In terms of an appeal, it will be heard by different people appointed by the league. I would expect they will not look at everything using a blank sheet, including the punishment but instead look at the robustness of the decision against possible future legal challenge. I wouldn't give Southampton much chance of winning the appeal. We slag of the EFL enough but they have acted in the interests of the game here and I doubt this sort of cheating will happen again.

ken_shabby

Personally I think this is right. Southampton having been caught spying then seem to have tried to mitigate the offence by admitting two other cases. As has been said, it takes a very odd point of view to believe they spied on Oxford and Ipswich too, but not Wrexham or Coventry (unless some clubs have high security that makes it impossible). Now they want to appeal to get back in!! I originally thought the punishment was steep given the fringe benefits of a video taken at distance by an intern. But it seems they are repeat offenders. If they want to appeal, it should come with a risk of a big points deduction. What they need to do is shut up, accept the consequences and as a priority, clean house. The appeal just suggests trying to brazen it out. If it wasn't a big deal, why did they keep doing it?