[cite]Posted By: Off_it[/cite]Not true Henry. Dragons exist alright - they simply cunningly disguise themselves as mothers-in-law these days. But they don't fool me, no siree!
Are you Les
Are you Les
Are you Les Dawson in disguise?
[cite]Posted By: Off_it[/cite]Not true Henry. Dragons exist alright - they simply cunningly disguise themselves as mothers-in-law these days. But they don't fool me, no siree!
It strikes me that the St.Georges day was never ever celebrated to any great extent unlike St. Patricks day for example but the issue regarding its observance has become a point of principle rather than any genuine desire to celebrate Englands patron saints day.
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]It strikes me that the St.Georges day was never ever celebrated to any great extent unlike St. Patricks day for example but the issue regarding its observance has become a point of principle rather than any genuine desire to celebrate Englands patron saints day.
What annoys me, is the amount of no brain English numpties, who will quite happily put on a green wig and dance a jig with a pint of Guinness, who have no Irish connections whatsoever, on St Patricks day, but cant be arsed to celebrate their own Saints day. The more people who take the attitude of "why bother" the more it will be ignored, thats why, me, and many others make a determined effort to celebrate it.
im sure no Irish man/woman would be upset if i celebrated St Paddys Day or not and of course we know that the Irish dont just go to the pub and get pissed like the Englisg do (as said above) !!!!!!!!!!!!! where the f**k do these people live ??????
Of course all the people out and about drinking green guiness on 17th March will be thinking of St Pat geting rid of the snakes in the Emerald Isle and not just out for the craic.
St Georges Day could (should) be a day when people celebrate the country -------- people have come here for many reasons --- too get away, a better life,no where else to go. Most heavily populated country in Europe so has to have something (other than large benefits) going for it. CELEBRATE THAT THEN.
I will celebrate it with like minded people (not all English) its our day and it will never be "their"day. Its not for Brown---Blair--Livingston---Harman---Smith its for the peoples of England .
As Henry said every time there is this hog wash no St georges Day ---- positive discrimination etc etc etc etc etc who wins ? who asks for it ? always been an own goal and always will be.
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]Not sure its a "why bother" attitude DA9 I think that for the vast majority of English people it actually just doesn`t mean very much.
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]It strikes me that the St.Georges day was never ever celebrated to any great extent unlike St. Patricks day for example but the issue regarding its observance has become a point of principle rather than any genuine desire to celebrate Englands patron saints day.
Agree. And an excuse to have a moan about not being allowed to celebrate it like the annual "they've banned Christmas" story.
Still think the School was wrong and that English people should, if they wish to, celebrate it.
People who want to mark it or celebrate it can. Shops are now selling SGD cards and bunting, pubs are cottoning on to it and soon it will be like St Paddy's Day here ie silly dragon hats, beer stained red and white, people singing Land of Hope and Glory but not knowing the words.
Perhaps if it was celebrated consistently for a number of years it would grow to mean something for future generations but we didn`t bother celebrating it before so whats all the fuss about ?
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]Perhaps if it was celebrated consistently for a number of years it would grow to mean something for future generations but we didn`t bother celebrating it before so whats all the fuss about ?
True but I found this take on it interesting and thought provoking. Not my words.
The notion of a patriotic celebration of St George's Day is something that many English people feel ambiguous about, owing to the historical connotations that it carries. For a long time we've flown the union flag rather than the flag of Saint George - but a mixture of a greater confidence in Scotland and the recent influx of immigrants has put the English identity back on the agenda. It is possible for St George's Day to become a celebration, but whether or not it can become a national day in the way the Americans have, I very much doubt; we just wouldn't feel comfortable with a day when we have all got to salute the flag. The belligerence within the English tradition is still a fresh memory and for some people the national flag is associated with football violence.
We need to find a way to overcome that reticence and repossess the symbols of what it means to be English. St George's Day can help us do that if we can make it less inward looking and more like St Patrick's Day where everyone can be Irish for the day, wherever they come from.
What we lack is a confidence, not so much about who we are, more about whether it's okay to celebrate being English. We need to stop being embarrassed about our home and find a way to celebrate the things about it that we love - both to respect the locals and to build bridges with newcomers.
Multiculturalism isn't about celebrating everybody's culture but our own. We have to be present, not least because as hosts we provide the framework for our diversity to flourish. If you accept the idea that national identity is personal, then it is down to each of us to find something to celebrate on April 23. Let those people who feel strongly about the traditional ideas, celebrate them in their traditional way. Let others find aspects of Englishness they feel comfortable with.
My hunch is that Englishness has more to do with space rather than race - and by having a day when we can celebrate the things that make us feel we belong, we can begin to reclaim our identity from those who would use our flag to intimidate and divide.
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]Not sure its a "why bother" attitude DA9 I think that for the vast majority of English people it actually just doesn`t mean very much.
Which is the saddest part for me.
Why is it sad though ?
Surely everything boils down to freedom of choice. St Georges Day is not as big as you would like it to be not because of any political handcuffs attempting to halt it in its tracks, but because ultimately not enough people care enough about it.
If someone wants to go out and get pissed on another saints day, so what ? 99% of the time, its got nothing to do with a political angle, but everything about those people wanting to have a decent night out, that's all.
I celebrate St Georges with mates who are bothered, you celebrate with your mates who are bothered. It won't become a big national thing until there are more people who are generally bothered than currently are. And you can't force that upon people, it has to be an individual choice.
And for those that aren't too fussed about celebrating the day a greek bloke slayed a mythological dragon in Libya, well that doesn't make them any less 'proud to be english' in any way in my eyes.
It's quite a complex issue but here is the way i think it happened.
The Union of Crowns between England and Scotland took place in 1707. From that time we were supposed to be British.
The truth is the Scots and Welsh never really took to the British thing and regarded it as equalling English. The English began to see themselves as English = British.
We all ticked along for centuries. When the two world wars came along, we were all very much British. Defending the Empire and Democracy. The Union flag flew everywhere.
This could be seen as late as 1966, at the world cup final, where the England supporters flew the Union Flag.
However, as the world settled into relative peace, the Empire crumbled and the Scots and Welsh started to seek their own identity again. By this time any sense of Englishness had been knocked out of us. We were happy as Brits we didn't need to celebrate St George's day.
In 1997 everything changed again. New Labour under Tony Blair created devolution for Scotland (in a futile attempt to defuse Scottish nationalism) Devolution then followed for Wales and eventually N.Ireland.
Unfortunately Blair decided the English couldn't have devolution. We had to remain British.
As the injustices of asymmetric devolution built up, so did the recognition of English nationality, by the English.
Hence a much stronger English identity today, compared to (say) 1966, and the desire to celebrate our own culture. To wave our own flag and indeed the growing desire for an English Parliament.
There is a big differance between "celebrating it" and "banning" maybe someone with big wedge should take one of the numpty authorites of school heads to court re its anti english racism ?
Henry dear dear chap very taboo words in the above "multiculturism" hasnt Labour banned and binned that phrase now ? along with "tough on crime " and "british jobs for brits" of course they didnt happen.
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]Not sure its a "why bother" attitude DA9 I think that for the vast majority of English people it actually just doesn`t mean very much.
Which is the saddest part for me.
Why is it sad though ?
Surely everything boils down to freedom of choice. St Georges Day is not as big as you would like it to be not because of any political handcuffs attempting to halt it in its tracks, but because ultimately not enough people care enough about it.
If someone wants to go out and get pissed on another saints day, so what ? 99% of the time, its got nothing to do with a political angle, but everything about those people wanting to have a decent night out, that's all.
I celebrate St Georges with mates who are bothered, you celebrate with your mates who are bothered. It won't become a big national thing until there are more people who are generally bothered than currently are. And you can't force that upon people, it has to be an individual choice.
And for those that aren't too fussed about celebrating the day a greek bloke slayed a mythological dragon in Libya, well that doesn't make them any less 'proud to be english' in any way in my eyes.
Sad, due to my original point, you will see countless English people pretending to be Irish next week, but some wont even know when St Georges day is.
It is down to individual choice, but I will go back to my other point, the "Why bother" brigade, if everyone had that attitude nothing would happen, instead of actually getting off their arses to actively take part in some sort of celebration locally. If we as football supporters took that attitude, nobody would have been at Reading, and certainly nobody would bother to go to tomorrow, but there are plenty on here who would slate the "why bother" supporters among us if so.
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]Daggs, brilliant attempt to pin it all on new Labour and Tony Blair post their1997election.
One small point.
Euro 96. St Georges Flags everywhere, Three Lions.
Henry i sat and typed a lot of words, i didn't want to go into fine detail and tap out more words, but now i am.
You're quite correct re. 1996. The point i made was, as late as '66 the English flew the Union flag. There was as slow trickle of English identity coming along before 1997, partly because of the restlessness of the Scots within the Union. But Blair's devolution turned that into a much more widespread movement towards Englishness.
I wouldn't use the phrase "pin it all on New labour and Blair" how can i ? I welcome the re-discovery of England. Even though i despise them for just about everything else they have done to this country. The one good thing to come out of Labours time in office, is the rise in English identity. IMO
[cite]Posted By: Goonerhater[/cite]There is a big differance between "celebrating it" and "banning" maybe someone with big wedge should take one of the numpty authorites of school heads to court re its anti english racism ?
Henry dear dear chap very taboo words in the above "multiculturism" hasnt Labour banned and binned that phrase now ? along with "tough on crime " and "british jobs for brits" of course they didnt happen.
Don't know Roy but you are the PC one who knows which words are allowed or not.
I've never been a labour supporter but like Daggs you fall into the same trap.
By blaming Labour or the left or PC or foreigners or whoever you stop talking about the good and positive bits of Englishness or the big fun inclusive party St Georges Day could be. Anyone can join in St Patrick's Day, you don't have to be even a bit Irish, it's fun if you like Guinness and silly hats or whatever or you can just ignore it if you don't.
But not St Georges Day. Instead the focus of those who say they are English and want to celebrate SGD is nearly always a negative. Always about bans and why are we so hard done by ie just the sort of stuff that puts people off. "hey come to a St Georges Day Party, we'll all sit around and moan about how we're not allowed to have a St Georges Day party".
In a minute someone is going to quote that "There is a forbidden word" speech without noting who said it or when or in what context
[cite]Posted By: DA9[/cite][
Sad, due to my original point, you will see countless English people pretending to be Irish next week, but some wont even know when St Georges day is.
Ok, let me phase it another way.
Do you genuinely see it as 'English people pretending to be Irish' ? I don't, because i see it as people who like getting pissed drinking Guinness.
Until Guinness hijacked St Patricks day, did this day really have any impact on people in this country with non-Irish family backgrounds ?
Through very clever marketing, St Partricks Day is now Guinness Day in this country and if people want to go out and drink the stuff and make a twat of themselves when they get a silly hat after five months, then that's down to them largely wanting a booze.
Saying pretending to be Irish as a result of that is like saying having a curry on national curry day is pretending to be indian.
I dunno, perhaps i'm looking at it all too simplistically ?
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]Perhaps it should be compulsory to celebrate it DA9 ? Would that satisfy you ?
I have never suggested that, again, the sad part is English people being Irish for a day but not "bothering" with St Georges day.
I consider myself a winner in the lottery of life being born in, and being English, and I have no time for the buffoons mentioned above.
Going back to my first post, schools and councils, or whomever, banning St Georges day events or the wearing of badges or t-shirts, and the flying of flags by people who wish to, only breed further that feeling of "why bother" for some.
Not simplistic at all AFKA. Its exactly the same as the marketing crowd generating such interest in Haloween which was until the 80`s ? only celebrated in the USA.
Henry can you not see the English have been encouraged to erase their own identity for decades. Now we are awakening again, and there is some resentment and anger about why we are not allowed to celebrate our own culture. There are constant stories of councils finding ways to ban St George's day just as DA9 said at the start of this thread.
I'm with you lets have St George's day, silly hats, carnival in the street type of days. But 'authority 'doesn't like us to do so. G.Brown quakes in his boots that the English might re-discover themselves.
[cite]Posted By: DA9[/cite][
Sad, due to my original point, you will see countless English people pretending to be Irish next week, but some wont even know when St Georges day is.
Ok, let me phase it another way.
Do you genuinely see it as 'English people pretending to be Irish' ? I don't, because i see it as people who like getting pissed drinking Guinness.
Until Guinness hijacked St Patricks day, did this day really have any impact on people in this country with non-Irish family backgrounds ?
Through very clever marketing, St Partricks Day is now Guinness Day in this country and if people want to go out and drink the stuff and make a twat of themselves when they get a silly hat after five months, then that's down to them largely wanting a booze.
Saying pretending to be Irish as a result of that is like saying having a curry on national curry day is pretending to be indian.
I dunno, perhaps i'm looking at it all too simplistically ?
I have no problem with St Patricks day, celebrated it myself, very clever marketing, I would quite happily tip my hat to St Davids & St Andrews day, many years ago I worked with a Nigerian girl, and I was the one who actively encouraged her to wear her national dress (or style of dress) on her national day, when she thought it might be ridiculed by others.
[cite]Posted By: DA9[/cite][
Sad, due to my original point, you will see countless English people pretending to be Irish next week, but some wont even know when St Georges day is.
Ok, let me phase it another way.
Do you genuinely see it as 'English people pretending to be Irish' ? I don't, because i see it as people who like getting pissed drinking Guinness.
Until Guinness hijacked St Patricks day, did this day really have any impact on people in this country with non-Irish family backgrounds ?
Through very clever marketing, St Partricks Day is now Guinness Day in this country and if people want to go out and drink the stuff and make a twat of themselves when they get a silly hat after five months, then that's down to them largely wanting a booze.
Saying pretending to be Irish as a result of that is like saying having a curry on national curry day is pretending to be indian.
I dunno, perhaps i'm looking at it all too simplistically ?
No, you are spot on.
Let's focus on the positives of being English rather than NOT being Irish, Welsh, Scottish or Outer Mongolian.
I'm English and proud of that. I don't have to put down someone else's culture, history, customs or drinking habits to be proud of it either.
Stop trying to score political points over SGD and get on with celebrating it.
Comments
;o)
Hate to break this to you but Dragons are mythical creatures. A bit like the Welsh.
Are you Les
Are you Les
Are you Les Dawson in disguise?
Or not so cunningly in my case!
What annoys me, is the amount of no brain English numpties, who will quite happily put on a green wig and dance a jig with a pint of Guinness, who have no Irish connections whatsoever, on St Patricks day, but cant be arsed to celebrate their own Saints day. The more people who take the attitude of "why bother" the more it will be ignored, thats why, me, and many others make a determined effort to celebrate it.
Of course all the people out and about drinking green guiness on 17th March will be thinking of St Pat geting rid of the snakes in the Emerald Isle and not just out for the craic.
St Georges Day could (should) be a day when people celebrate the country -------- people have come here for many reasons --- too get away, a better life,no where else to go. Most heavily populated country in Europe so has to have something (other than large benefits) going for it. CELEBRATE THAT THEN.
I will celebrate it with like minded people (not all English) its our day and it will never be "their"day. Its not for Brown---Blair--Livingston---Harman---Smith its for the peoples of England .
As Henry said every time there is this hog wash no St georges Day ---- positive discrimination etc etc etc etc etc who wins ? who asks for it ? always been an own goal and always will be.
Which is the saddest part for me.
Agree. And an excuse to have a moan about not being allowed to celebrate it like the annual "they've banned Christmas" story.
Still think the School was wrong and that English people should, if they wish to, celebrate it.
People who want to mark it or celebrate it can. Shops are now selling SGD cards and bunting, pubs are cottoning on to it and soon it will be like St Paddy's Day here ie silly dragon hats, beer stained red and white, people singing Land of Hope and Glory but not knowing the words.
True but I found this take on it interesting and thought provoking. Not my words.
The notion of a patriotic celebration of St George's Day is something that many English people feel ambiguous about, owing to the historical connotations that it carries. For a long time we've flown the union flag rather than the flag of Saint George - but a mixture of a greater confidence in Scotland and the recent influx of immigrants has put the English identity back on the agenda. It is possible for St George's Day to become a celebration, but whether or not it can become a national day in the way the Americans have, I very much doubt; we just wouldn't feel comfortable with a day when we have all got to salute the flag. The belligerence within the English tradition is still a fresh memory and for some people the national flag is associated with football violence.
We need to find a way to overcome that reticence and repossess the symbols of what it means to be English. St George's Day can help us do that if we can make it less inward looking and more like St Patrick's Day where everyone can be Irish for the day, wherever they come from.
What we lack is a confidence, not so much about who we are, more about whether it's okay to celebrate being English. We need to stop being embarrassed about our home and find a way to celebrate the things about it that we love - both to respect the locals and to build bridges with newcomers.
Multiculturalism isn't about celebrating everybody's culture but our own. We have to be present, not least because as hosts we provide the framework for our diversity to flourish. If you accept the idea that national identity is personal, then it is down to each of us to find something to celebrate on April 23. Let those people who feel strongly about the traditional ideas, celebrate them in their traditional way. Let others find aspects of Englishness they feel comfortable with.
My hunch is that Englishness has more to do with space rather than race - and by having a day when we can celebrate the things that make us feel we belong, we can begin to reclaim our identity from those who would use our flag to intimidate and divide.
Why is it sad though ?
Surely everything boils down to freedom of choice. St Georges Day is not as big as you would like it to be not because of any political handcuffs attempting to halt it in its tracks, but because ultimately not enough people care enough about it.
If someone wants to go out and get pissed on another saints day, so what ? 99% of the time, its got nothing to do with a political angle, but everything about those people wanting to have a decent night out, that's all.
I celebrate St Georges with mates who are bothered, you celebrate with your mates who are bothered. It won't become a big national thing until there are more people who are generally bothered than currently are. And you can't force that upon people, it has to be an individual choice.
And for those that aren't too fussed about celebrating the day a greek bloke slayed a mythological dragon in Libya, well that doesn't make them any less 'proud to be english' in any way in my eyes.
The Union of Crowns between England and Scotland took place in 1707. From that time we were supposed to be British.
The truth is the Scots and Welsh never really took to the British thing and regarded it as equalling English. The English began to see themselves as English = British.
We all ticked along for centuries. When the two world wars came along, we were all very much British. Defending the Empire and Democracy. The Union flag flew everywhere.
This could be seen as late as 1966, at the world cup final, where the England supporters flew the Union Flag.
However, as the world settled into relative peace, the Empire crumbled and the Scots and Welsh started to seek their own identity again. By this time any sense of Englishness had been knocked out of us. We were happy as Brits we didn't need to celebrate St George's day.
In 1997 everything changed again. New Labour under Tony Blair created devolution for Scotland (in a futile attempt to defuse Scottish nationalism) Devolution then followed for Wales and eventually N.Ireland.
Unfortunately Blair decided the English couldn't have devolution. We had to remain British.
As the injustices of asymmetric devolution built up, so did the recognition of English nationality, by the English.
Hence a much stronger English identity today, compared to (say) 1966, and the desire to celebrate our own culture. To wave our own flag and indeed the growing desire for an English Parliament.
Here endeth the lesson......... Professor Daggs!
Henry dear dear chap very taboo words in the above "multiculturism" hasnt Labour banned and binned that phrase now ? along with "tough on crime " and "british jobs for brits" of course they didnt happen.
One small point.
Euro 96. St Georges Flags everywhere, Three Lions.
Sad, due to my original point, you will see countless English people pretending to be Irish next week, but some wont even know when St Georges day is.
It is down to individual choice, but I will go back to my other point, the "Why bother" brigade, if everyone had that attitude nothing would happen, instead of actually getting off their arses to actively take part in some sort of celebration locally. If we as football supporters took that attitude, nobody would have been at Reading, and certainly nobody would bother to go to tomorrow, but there are plenty on here who would slate the "why bother" supporters among us if so.
Henry i sat and typed a lot of words, i didn't want to go into fine detail and tap out more words, but now i am.
You're quite correct re. 1996. The point i made was, as late as '66 the English flew the Union flag. There was as slow trickle of English identity coming along before 1997, partly because of the restlessness of the Scots within the Union. But Blair's devolution turned that into a much more widespread movement towards Englishness.
I wouldn't use the phrase "pin it all on New labour and Blair" how can i ? I welcome the re-discovery of England. Even though i despise them for just about everything else they have done to this country. The one good thing to come out of Labours time in office, is the rise in English identity. IMO
Don't know Roy but you are the PC one who knows which words are allowed or not.
I've never been a labour supporter but like Daggs you fall into the same trap.
By blaming Labour or the left or PC or foreigners or whoever you stop talking about the good and positive bits of Englishness or the big fun inclusive party St Georges Day could be. Anyone can join in St Patrick's Day, you don't have to be even a bit Irish, it's fun if you like Guinness and silly hats or whatever or you can just ignore it if you don't.
But not St Georges Day. Instead the focus of those who say they are English and want to celebrate SGD is nearly always a negative. Always about bans and why are we so hard done by ie just the sort of stuff that puts people off. "hey come to a St Georges Day Party, we'll all sit around and moan about how we're not allowed to have a St Georges Day party".
In a minute someone is going to quote that "There is a forbidden word" speech without noting who said it or when or in what context
Ok, let me phase it another way.
Do you genuinely see it as 'English people pretending to be Irish' ? I don't, because i see it as people who like getting pissed drinking Guinness.
Until Guinness hijacked St Patricks day, did this day really have any impact on people in this country with non-Irish family backgrounds ?
Through very clever marketing, St Partricks Day is now Guinness Day in this country and if people want to go out and drink the stuff and make a twat of themselves when they get a silly hat after five months, then that's down to them largely wanting a booze.
Saying pretending to be Irish as a result of that is like saying having a curry on national curry day is pretending to be indian.
I dunno, perhaps i'm looking at it all too simplistically ?
I have never suggested that, again, the sad part is English people being Irish for a day but not "bothering" with St Georges day.
I consider myself a winner in the lottery of life being born in, and being English, and I have no time for the buffoons mentioned above.
Going back to my first post, schools and councils, or whomever, banning St Georges day events or the wearing of badges or t-shirts, and the flying of flags by people who wish to, only breed further that feeling of "why bother" for some.
I'm with you lets have St George's day, silly hats, carnival in the street type of days. But 'authority 'doesn't like us to do so. G.Brown quakes in his boots that the English might re-discover themselves.
I have no problem with St Patricks day, celebrated it myself, very clever marketing, I would quite happily tip my hat to St Davids & St Andrews day, many years ago I worked with a Nigerian girl, and I was the one who actively encouraged her to wear her national dress (or style of dress) on her national day, when she thought it might be ridiculed by others.
No, you are spot on.
Let's focus on the positives of being English rather than NOT being Irish, Welsh, Scottish or Outer Mongolian.
I'm English and proud of that. I don't have to put down someone else's culture, history, customs or drinking habits to be proud of it either.
Stop trying to score political points over SGD and get on with celebrating it.