[cite]Posted By: Steve Dowman[/cite]Labour put the country in such dire trouble in the 70s, needing a greek type bailout by the IMF, which is where we are again today, some things never change. Maggie got blamed for the pain she was forced to put the country through following years of mis management, by labour and a weak conservative governmentof the middle ground, much like Cameron will end up with. Both 70s labour and Tories were forced to try and prop themselves up with liberal support (sound familiar yet) but without a strong mandate from the electorate it was doomed to fail. This changed when a strong leader appeared who after a fairly narrow 79 victory was elected with a much stronger mandate to push through reform of the public sector. Deja vu to those of us old enough to remember the mess we were in back then, we are back to a country that is financially on its knees and I hope for a hung parliament until we get a leader strong enough to push through the required reforms, it won't happen in a hung parliament as no party wants to be seen to be making (needed) cuts to anything. So we will end up with an IMF bailout within a couple of years followed by a working class tory leader (Maggie was a grammar school girl) to help us out of labours mess again, or go greek.
To add balance, a lot of the mid 70s mess was a result of the OPEC oil crisis. We moan about the price of petrol now, but just imagine it going up by 70% overnight! Petrol prices effect the price of everything else, due to manufacturing, transportation, etc, which led to rampant inflation that wasn't the fault of any western government. We had to borrow to support the £ or face backrupcy, but unlike Greece now it wasn't the UK govt's doing.
Remember too, North Sea Oil came on-stream more-or-less as Maggie got the keys to Number 10. When she came to power, the amount Britain owed as a nation was £88.6 billion. In the subsequent six years, taxes from the North Sea generated an additional £52.4 billion - money no previous government had had to spend.
most countries are in debt, but it is generally calculated as a % of their GDP to see how bad the situation is. We are about the same as Greece, but will soon be higher, which will put us the highest in the EU. Though as we did not join the Euro (despite Gordon wanting us to), we are not (yet) in the same dire economic woes as we can still borrow more, hurrah.
[cite]Posted By: Sco[/cite]I see that the US owes us a reported $230m.
The U.S. owes getting on for $13 TRILLION! Makes our £900 billion seem a bit puny!
A big chunk of U.K. debt is from the bailouts of Northern Rock, RBS, etc, which one day will make a very nice return for us. RBS, for instance, was bailed out when the share price was around 4p. It's now back up to 50p a share. I'm sure a future Tory government will cash in the billions made out of that, and the Daily Mail will herald it a new economic miracle...
So. My mind is trying to get around this...private investors (such as banks) gambled on future markets and offered money out left right and centre to willing punters (us in mortgages/etc, governments in national debt) and the whole system collapsed due to greed and stupidity. A lot of these investors where then bailed out by our money and yet we still owe them money and they are once again betting against future markets with other people's money? Someone's onto a proper winner here....
Now I can't ignore the government's part in this but there does seem to be another group of people who could do with there houses being torn down as well - where is their accountability held?
Valley Gary, I'm not sure spitting at someone is more disgusting than shouting at a group of asian kids, "how many of you are robbers then?". If I was there, I'd have hawked my lungs out and threw up in his face. Disgusting, intimidatory thug.
[cite]Posted By: Chunes[/cite]Valley Gary, I'm not sure spitting at someone is more disgusting than shouting at a group of asian kids, "how many of you are robbers then?". If I was there, I'd have hawked my lungs out and threw up in his face. Disgusting, intimidatory thug.
[cite]Posted By: Steve Dowman[/cite]most countries are in debt, but it is generally calculated as a % of their GDP to see how bad the situation is. We are about the same as Greece, but will soon be higher, which will put us the highest in the EU. Though as we did not join the Euro (despite Gordon wanting us to), we are not (yet) in the same dire economic woes as we can still borrow more, hurrah.
To be fair to Brown he stopped Blair from leading us into the Euro through his 'Five Economic Tests'. Blair would have held, and probably won, a referendum on entry if Brown had not been opposed to it - probably the single one decent thing he did during his 13 years as Chancellor and PM.
Our debt level is sigificantly less than that of Greece I believe, Greece's debt is 125% and rising, I think ours is 97% and rising. Although we have a growing economy and jobs market and they certainly don't!
[cite]Posted By: Sco[/cite]So. My mind is trying to get around this...private investors (such as banks) gambled on future markets and offered money out left right and centre to willing punters (us in mortgages/etc, governments in national debt) and the whole system collapsed due to greed and stupidity. A lot of these investors where then bailed out by our money and yet we still owe them money and they are once again betting against future markets with other people's money? Someone's onto a proper winner here....
Now I can't ignore the government's part in this but there does seem to be another group of people who could do with there houses being torn down as well - where is their accountability held?
Another excellent reason not to vote for Brown.
In many cases the willing punters were very badly advised by mortgage brokers who operated under the FSA,a finacial body that is regulated by the treasury.
They were hoodwinked into mortgages that they had no possible way of ever paying back.And all the while,during his years as chancellor,Brown stood at the front of the commons waving his tatty red briefcase while blurting "No more and boom and bust for great britain" when the biggest boom and bust this country has EVER seen was going on right under his sociopathic scottish hooter.
Don't believe everything you read in the tory media,
Exactly. Most of the entire western world is involved in the financial crisis. Saying it's Labour's fault is utter madness. By that logic, every other country should be blaming them as well.
[cite]Posted By: Sco[/cite]So. My mind is trying to get around this...private investors (such as banks) gambled on future markets and offered money out left right and centre to willing punters (us in mortgages/etc, governments in national debt) and the whole system collapsed due to greed and stupidity. A lot of these investors where then bailed out by our money and yet we still owe them money and they are once again betting against future markets with other people's money? Someone's onto a proper winner here....
Now I can't ignore the government's part in this but there does seem to be another group of people who could do with there houses being torn down as well - where is their accountability held?
Another excellent reason not to vote for Brown.
In many cases the willing punters were very badly advised by mortgage brokers who operated under the FSA,a finacial body that is regulated by the treasury.
They were hoodwinked into mortgages that they had no possible way of ever paying back.And all the while,during his years as chancellor,Brown stood at the front of the commons waving his tatty red briefcase while blurting "No more and boom and bust for great britain" when the biggest boom and bust this country has EVER seen was going on right under his sociopathic scottish hooter.
...whereas a Conservative government would, of course, have regulated their mates in the City MUCH more tightly... Black Monday, anyone?
[cite]Posted By: Steve Dowman[/cite]most countries are in debt, but it is generally calculated as a % of their GDP to see how bad the situation is. We are about the same as Greece, but will soon be higher, which will put us the highest in the EU. Though as we did not join the Euro (despite Gordon wanting us to), we are not (yet) in the same dire economic woes as we can still borrow more, hurrah.
Remember it was Major and Lamont that took us into the ERM and spent billions in one day trying to keep us in it. Prior to that Thatcher wanted closer links with the EU - signing the Masstrict Treaty, all things that the right like to pretend didn't happen. You might also like to compare percentages of debt (in GDP terms) now and in the 80s and 90s and then make a decision on who is the more economicaly prudent.
All governments make mistakes. Brown has made plenty - selling off gold when it was cheap and out of fashion is a glaring one, but since the recession he and Darling have done a decent job. The decision to take massive stakes in Lloyds, Northern Rock and RBS was very unpopular at the time - Cable wanted the government to nationalise pretty much the entire banking system, but the action taken has proven to have been 100% and in the next 6-12 months the Treasury will have a nice nest egg as those stakes in the banks are sold off.
BFR, agreed that darling has made a decent fist of trying to get us out of the mire they got us in, but as has been mentioned it is like thanking an arsonist for being good with a hosepipe.
With your excellent economic background BFR, care to tell me which years under thatcher were worse for national debt as a % of GDP than the current situation, even allowing for the fact that our debt is probably twice the stated figure as the buy today pay tomorrow economics of PFI and PPP which have been so heavily used by labour and now saddle us with future debts are not included in the headline figure. Its änother example of hidden depths of our problems that are being kept from the public. It is also a cheap accountancy trick to put new hospitals and schools on the balance sheet as assets accrued by the nation, without putting the cost liabilities down as well. An accountant would be in trouble if they tried doing that in the real world.
Agreed our national debt is very scary, and it certainly wasn't as bad under Thatcher. But we tend to forget that under Thatcher, things such as childhood poverty levels rose in the 90's to being the highest in Europe. Haven't our various economic systems been chosen according to political ideologies? Each to his own, but I'll stick with Labour.
[cite]Posted By: Chunes[/cite]Valley Gary, I'm not sure spitting at someone is more disgusting than shouting at a group of asian kids, "how many of you are robbers then?". If I was there, I'd have hawked my lungs out and threw up in his face. Disgusting, intimidatory thug.
I think its a lot lot worse personally.
The fellas should know what this helmet is all about, give him some stick back. Just personally think spitting is one of the worst things....
[cite]Posted By: Miserableold-ish git[/cite]Anyway......
Just started this thread as a "Who will you vote for....?"
In the end I went Green in the National, Green & then "People before Profit" in the Mayoral & 1 "new Labour" & 2 Greens in the Locals.
The people before profit man was my pick for mayor as he wants to get rid of the £78k role! Voted for a people before profit and 2 greens in the council. Would like to see some left wing nutters run the council and the greens have been good for the borough. Wouldn't want them running the country though!
13 years ago Labour came in to " clean up politics" in the last 13 years they gave us two Wars They lied about WMD-- it didnt exist 13 years ago they were going to be "tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime" 6/7 years ago there was no mass imigration and anyone who said there was was "a racist" (Last week the same but you were a "bigot") over 2.2 million came from Europe but they wont tell you about none Europeans Brown promised us a vote on Europe , when he became MP he change his mine (he lied) Brown said "2.5 milion British jobs for British people" (he lied) They gave develoution to NI/Wales and Scotland but ignore the people of England paying for it,They let MPs from the above countries vote on issues that efect England. Iwonder what Rothco makes of just that one item ? i mean how do the NUS explain that we all live in the UK but if ur a student in England u will be £15,000 in debt but in Scotland it wont cost u jackshit ?
I cant believe thay have spun the con again. I truely cant see how anyone can vote for them.
On here we have people saying they are true Labourites but didnt know Red Ken Livingston was a Labour MP and hating Tory Boy because of his posh school but didnt even know 11 of the cabinet went to private schools.
WSS i have been thinking along the same lines for a few weeks. I have lost faith in the parties with large majoritys they push through ideology regardless of its effects. Maybe a hung parliament could work ----but if it means we got boged down for months of inaction then the UK will truely be in the sh*t. The debt is huge and growing this rubbish have lied about how bad it is ---- we should all know that-------- and who ever gets in has no way out of making some tough choices--- we all will feel the pain.
Public sector wage freeze maybe 3 years Cuts in what you councils do VAT up at some stage (20%) Tax up somewhere Benefits cut Petrol up and up
and more they are coming and some will be here quickly------------- despite what they ALL have said.
[cite]Posted By: Goonerhater[/cite]so its all over really aint it ?
13 years ago Labour came in to " clean up politics"
in the last 13 years they gave us two Wars
They lied about WMD-- it didnt exist
13 years ago they were going to be "tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime"
6/7 years ago there was no mass imigration and anyone who said there was was "a racist" (Last week the same but you were a "bigot")
over 2.2 million came from Europe but they wont tell you about none Europeans
Brown promised us a vote on Europe , when he became MP he change his mine (he lied)
Brown said "2.5 milion British jobs for British people" (he lied)
They gave develoution to NI/Wales and Scotland but ignore the people of England paying for it,They let MPs from the above countries vote on issues that efect England. Iwonder what Rothco makes of just that one item ? i mean how do the NUS explain that we all live in the UK but if ur a student in England u will be £15,000 in debt but in Scotland it wont cost u jackshit ?
I cant believe thay have spun the con again. I truely cant see how anyone can vote for them.
On here we have people saying they are true Labourites but didnt know Red Ken Livingston was a Labour MP and hating Tory Boy because of his posh school but didnt even know 11 of the cabinet went to private schools.
well now i guess the pain will start.
Not "private" schools that bother me. Its ETON that bothers me. Aristocracy by any other name. Do you really believe they know anything about how ordinary people live or for that matter care.
Comments
Oh Pleeeeeeese !
To add balance, a lot of the mid 70s mess was a result of the OPEC oil crisis. We moan about the price of petrol now, but just imagine it going up by 70% overnight! Petrol prices effect the price of everything else, due to manufacturing, transportation, etc, which led to rampant inflation that wasn't the fault of any western government. We had to borrow to support the £ or face backrupcy, but unlike Greece now it wasn't the UK govt's doing.
Remember too, North Sea Oil came on-stream more-or-less as Maggie got the keys to Number 10. When she came to power, the amount Britain owed as a nation was £88.6 billion. In the subsequent six years, taxes from the North Sea generated an additional £52.4 billion - money no previous government had had to spend.
i meant the myth that the right wing press perpetuated in the 80s.
Someone's making money surely?
Private investors that buy government bonds I would imagine, rather than countries themselves
I think all countries are technically in debt, although some have more debt owed to them than they owe to other countries
China certainly is in debt
http://money.cnn.com/2009/11/10/news/international/china_debt.fortune/index.htm
The U.S. owes getting on for $13 TRILLION! Makes our £900 billion seem a bit puny!
A big chunk of U.K. debt is from the bailouts of Northern Rock, RBS, etc, which one day will make a very nice return for us. RBS, for instance, was bailed out when the share price was around 4p. It's now back up to 50p a share. I'm sure a future Tory government will cash in the billions made out of that, and the Daily Mail will herald it a new economic miracle...
Now I can't ignore the government's part in this but there does seem to be another group of people who could do with there houses being torn down as well - where is their accountability held?
To be fair to Brown he stopped Blair from leading us into the Euro through his 'Five Economic Tests'. Blair would have held, and probably won, a referendum on entry if Brown had not been opposed to it - probably the single one decent thing he did during his 13 years as Chancellor and PM.
I think you find that the banks had something to do about it.
Banking Bill 1987 (under the tory government.) No one complained until things went tits up.
Don't believe everything you read in the tory media,
Another excellent reason not to vote for Brown.
In many cases the willing punters were very badly advised by mortgage brokers who operated under the FSA,a finacial body that is regulated by the treasury.
They were hoodwinked into mortgages that they had no possible way of ever paying back.And all the while,during his years as chancellor,Brown stood at the front of the commons waving his tatty red briefcase while blurting "No more and boom and bust for great britain" when the biggest boom and bust this country has EVER seen was going on right under his sociopathic scottish hooter.
Exactly. Most of the entire western world is involved in the financial crisis. Saying it's Labour's fault is utter madness. By that logic, every other country should be blaming them as well.
...whereas a Conservative government would, of course, have regulated their mates in the City MUCH more tightly...
Remember it was Major and Lamont that took us into the ERM and spent billions in one day trying to keep us in it. Prior to that Thatcher wanted closer links with the EU - signing the Masstrict Treaty, all things that the right like to pretend didn't happen. You might also like to compare percentages of debt (in GDP terms) now and in the 80s and 90s and then make a decision on who is the more economicaly prudent.
All governments make mistakes. Brown has made plenty - selling off gold when it was cheap and out of fashion is a glaring one, but since the recession he and Darling have done a decent job. The decision to take massive stakes in Lloyds, Northern Rock and RBS was very unpopular at the time - Cable wanted the government to nationalise pretty much the entire banking system, but the action taken has proven to have been 100% and in the next 6-12 months the Treasury will have a nice nest egg as those stakes in the banks are sold off.
With your excellent economic background BFR, care to tell me which years under thatcher were worse for national debt as a % of GDP than the current situation, even allowing for the fact that our debt is probably twice the stated figure as the buy today pay tomorrow economics of PFI and PPP which have been so heavily used by labour and now saddle us with future debts are not included in the headline figure. Its änother example of hidden depths of our problems that are being kept from the public. It is also a cheap accountancy trick to put new hospitals and schools on the balance sheet as assets accrued by the nation, without putting the cost liabilities down as well. An accountant would be in trouble if they tried doing that in the real world.
I think its a lot lot worse personally.
The fellas should know what this helmet is all about, give him some stick back. Just personally think spitting is one of the worst things....
Just started this thread as a "Who will you vote for....?"
In the end I went Green in the National, Green & then "People before Profit" in the Mayoral & 1 "new Labour" & 2 Greens in the Locals.
13 years ago Labour came in to " clean up politics"
in the last 13 years they gave us two Wars
They lied about WMD-- it didnt exist
13 years ago they were going to be "tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime"
6/7 years ago there was no mass imigration and anyone who said there was was "a racist" (Last week the same but you were a "bigot")
over 2.2 million came from Europe but they wont tell you about none Europeans
Brown promised us a vote on Europe , when he became MP he change his mine (he lied)
Brown said "2.5 milion British jobs for British people" (he lied)
They gave develoution to NI/Wales and Scotland but ignore the people of England paying for it,They let MPs from the above countries vote on issues that efect England. Iwonder what Rothco makes of just that one item ? i mean how do the NUS explain that we all live in the UK but if ur a student in England u will be £15,000 in debt but in Scotland it wont cost u jackshit ?
I cant believe thay have spun the con again. I truely cant see how anyone can vote for them.
On here we have people saying they are true Labourites but didnt know Red Ken Livingston was a Labour MP and hating Tory Boy because of his posh school but didnt even know 11 of the cabinet went to private schools.
well now i guess the pain will start.
He asked me to vote for him.
He has left now.
(I think he may be grateful that the NHS is still working right now).
Thats the only reason I think a hung parliament MIGHT work - who can they blame but themselves - they'll all be in it together so to speak.
It may take longer but we might actually get some 'change'. Who knows...roll on 6am.
Public sector wage freeze maybe 3 years
Cuts in what you councils do
VAT up at some stage (20%)
Tax up somewhere
Benefits cut
Petrol up and up
and more they are coming and some will be here quickly------------- despite what they ALL have said.
Not "private" schools that bother me. Its ETON that bothers me. Aristocracy by any other name. Do you really believe they know anything about how ordinary people live or for that matter care.