[cite]Posted By: JiMMy 85[/cite]Incorruptible Addick said of Lawrence and Curbishley: "Don't think any of them got us relegated did they?"
Which i thought was a bit silly. Lawrence in 1989-1990 and Curbishley a decade later? Did I miss something!?
Jimmy, yes you did miss something. You didn't read Chizz's post or my reply properly. Please try to keep up !
Chizz's question was specifically about the first two years that Seed, Lawrence and Curbishley were in charge and a comparison of those initial periods with Parky's first two years.
I answered that specific question about the records of those managers in their first two years.
None of them got us relegated in the period under discussion - with the exception of Parky.
So please don't call me ''silly'' and cite as evidence of my idiocy something that happened six or seven years after the period we were discussing!
Almost everyone will get relegated at some point - Lennie and Curbs certainly did. Jimmy Seed didn't get Charlton relegated, but he did get sacked and then went to Millwall and got them relegated instead (they had to apply for re-election - oh, what joy there musty have been in SE7 that season!)
Enoch Powell said that all political careers end in failure. With very few exceptions, the same is true of being a football manager...
[cite]Posted By: JiMMy 85[/cite]Incorruptible Addick said of Lawrence and Curbishley: "Don't think any of them got us relegated did they?"
Which i thought was a bit silly. Lawrence in 1989-1990 and Curbishley a decade later? Did I miss something!?
I'm really sad that we've become a club like any other in regards to standing by our man. Sometimes, as with Pards and Dowie, there's no choice to be had. But Parky? Is he a good manager? In my eyes, absolutely. With just enough funds to buy one player, he's put together a full squad that looks capable of remaining in touch with a promotion spot for the duration, giving us a shot of having a run-in that will get us promoted. That, for me, is all he could ever have done this season. I hope we stick with him and he proves the naysayers wrong. If only because we're royally screwed if not.
P.S. Kudos to Chizz and co. for some excellent posts
P.P.S I wish I knew how to quote.
See, once again the issue of how much time we have available has been overlooked. You make the point that Dowie and Pardew had to go and I'd ask the question what's different about Parky then? The previous two were sacked because we couldn't afford to be relegated but equally we simply cannot afford to stay another year in this division. Isn't the question not really is he a good manager but is Parky good enough to give us the very best opportunity to get up this year? Parky has some great qualities don't get me wrong but I don't think we have the time to find out whether he can get the rest of his act together and, lets face it, he is not new to the game having managed at two other clubs.
FWIW I also think the post earlier argueing that some of the pro-Parky/Parky's a good manager views are driven by a wish to appear to be a more loyal supporter than those who feel he's had his time.
Lets hope for all our sakes though that that Parky does turn out to be half as good for CAFC as Lennie or Curbs.
NO I don't. Too many reasons to list here as to all of his shortcomings, but if I had to score individual managerial qualities out of 10 it would be
Tactics-pre match 1/10 weakest part of his game, often seems to set us up wrong
Tactics-in game 1/10 always seems too slow to react to needed problems on the pitch. Might help if he sat up in the atnds to get a better view like curbs did sometimes.
Man management 5/10 they all say he is good, is that a sign he is too soft? Results certainly don't make him look good
Transfer activity/squad building 7/10 think he has done a good job here with limited funds, though for players at this level I guess we are still a bit of a draw, for now.
Results (this is after all the only aspect he can be judged on objectively) 5/10 still deficient for CAFC in this league and with this squad, he has assembled a decent squad on paper, but can he get what he should out of them, I hope so, but doubt it.
[cite]Posted By: LargeAddick[/cite]
compared to most of the Clubs in League 1 we do. Or are you saying that Rochdale, for example, have a bigger playing budget than us ?
[cite]Posted By: Bournemouth Addick Isn't the question not really is he agoodmanager but is Parky goodenoughto give us the very best opportunity to get up this year?
That's another very good point in a thread of very good points, so well done to American Addick for creating a context in which we could disscuss the managership question rationally and objectively (mostly).
Clearly there are some who genuinely think Parky is a class act as a manager and the passion with which they hold that view has surprised me, I confess.
But at the end of the day, I still think the overwhelming aversion among Charlton supporters to sacking managers stems from the fact that every time we do, things just seem to get worse. The last sacking at Charlton that actually led to an improvement in our fortunes was 15 years ago when poor old Gritty was relieved of his (joint) duties!
I do not think anyone thinks that parkie is a class act, i think the pro Parkies feel that he is as good as we will get at this level and the state of our resources. He has shortcomings but I would not put them at a (1) as others here have and comparing him negatively to Curbs and Lennie is irrelevant, different times, different eras and if the internet had been around fully during their early years they would have been subject to similar discussions on CL.
It has been said that the players like him and that is used as "amunition" against him, but actually what dailly said was not that he liked Parkie but that he had the makings of a good manager. Dailly does not strike me as someone who suffers fools gladly and would not support a manager just because he is nice, Dailly came back to get promotion and that was the tenure (sp?) of his conversation with Murray prior to signing.
I'm not sure where we get the highest wages in the division tag from, we are probably in the top 10, but we are a london club and players will accept lower wages for outside london teams than us, wage bills are not necessarily the best means of camparing the quality of the squad, we also have a high non player fixed overhead and variable maintenance cost in the Valley and Sparrow Lane (Peterborough still train at a local authority sports centre in Castor).
I will be interested to see how Brighton progress during the season, at the moment i would say that Poyet is better than this league and comparisons against him reflect more on Murrays dismissal of him than Parkie, however I am not sure if Poyets game can work if we have pitches this winter like we did last and he will then need to adapt his game.
I see a lot of similar critisiscm thrown at parkie to what was thrown at Curbs, it is only since he left and two relegations that Curbs has become a saint to all fans, i can still rememeber while he was being reluctantly interviewed on the pitch by Brian Cole someone shouting "F.... off to West Ham". parkie is ok, not great not awful just ok, I think he could turn into a decent non premier manager and I would not be surpirsed that if we were to miss promotion this season he were not to be here next season - no suprises there, but if we get promoted it would equally not suprise me if he got poached by a better placed Championship team.
Very interesting thread with some great posts from both sides of the divide. Saturdays victory over Carlise in what can only be described as bizarre circumstances has for me done absolutely nothing to change my view that for the most part this season Charlton have been exceedingly poor. If I am to be persuaded away from my current position that PP should be replaced I will want to see. A Charlton team passing the ball in the style of Brighton. Perform consistently and allow me to see that Parky is doing a good job rather than be told he is in the face of a lot of performances that point to the contrary. Having said that. I hope he guides us to a successful season and does prove me wrong. We are certainly a split group of supporters regarding our manager at the moment. Hopefully the next installment of the debate following Sheff Wed will allow those of you that disagree with my perspective to crow a little more.
Parkinson is a very good manager and its pathetic to keep seeing and hearing how people dont think he is good. We had a fantastic start to the season last year but we kept quite a few players from the squad Parky had in the Championship. This year we haven't done as well but we couldnt hardly have got a better start especially with our completely new squad we have now got. We're 3 points off 2nd for crying out loud!
We won on Saturday and we scored our first 4 goals in a match since Millwall at home last December. Yes we threw away a 3 goal lead and that isn't acceptable, Parky knows that but he is A VERY GOOD MANAGER! Not only he has got a very good record, but he buys/signs some great players for a League One side. Players wouldn't sign if they didn't think he was a good manager. Yes people can argue we are in the 3rd tier of English football so he should have a good record as we are one of the bigger sides but it doesnt matter.
Parky has only lost 27 in 88 league games. That's 1 loss in 3.259 games. That's including Parky as the manager during our relegation from the Championship.
Parky has only lost 12 in 59 league games in League One. That's 1 loss in 4.916 games. Including our poor start to the season 4 games lost in 13.
Since we got relegated from the Championship Parky has a win percentage of 47.45%.
If thats not a good record then I don't know what is.
Stop this stupid debate now because Parky is a very good manager. Let's support him instead of criticise him.
COYR.
[cite]Posted By: Sage[/cite]I'm so bored of this now its untrue!
Parkinson is a very good managerand its pathetic to keep seeing and hearing how people dont think he is good. We had a fantastic start to the season last year but we kept quite a few players from the squad Parky had in the Championship. This year we haven't done as well but we couldnt hardly have got a better start especially with our completely new squad we have now got. We're 3 points off 2nd for crying out loud!
We won on Saturday and we scored our first 4 goals in a match since Millwall at home last December. Yes we threw away a 3 goal lead and that isn't acceptable, Parky knows that but heisA VERY GOOD MANAGER!Not only he has got a very good record, but he buys/signs some great players for a League One side. Players wouldn't sign if they didn't think he was a good manager. Yes people can argue we are in the 3rd tier of English football so he should have a good record as we are one of the bigger sides but it doesnt matter.
Parky has only lost 27 in 88 league games. That's 1 loss in 3.259 games. That's including Parky as the manager during our relegation from the Championship.
Parky has only lost 12 in 59 league games in League One. That's 1 loss in 4.916 games. Including our poor start to the season 4 games lost in 13.
Since we got relegated from the Championship Parky has a win percentage of 47.45%.
If thats not a good record then I don't know what is.
Stop this stupid debate now becauseParky is a very good manager.Let's support him instead of criticise him.
COYR.
[cite]Posted By: Sage[/cite]I'm so bored of this now its untrue!
Parkinson is a very good managerand its pathetic to keep seeing and hearing how people dont think he is good. We had a fantastic start to the season last year but we kept quite a few players from the squad Parky had in the Championship. This year we haven't done as well but we couldnt hardly have got a better start especially with our completely new squad we have now got. We're 3 points off 2nd for crying out loud!
We won on Saturday and we scored our first 4 goals in a match since Millwall at home last December. Yes we threw away a 3 goal lead and that isn't acceptable, Parky knows that but heisA VERY GOOD MANAGER!Not only he has got a very good record, but he buys/signs some great players for a League One side. Players wouldn't sign if they didn't think he was a good manager. Yes people can argue we are in the 3rd tier of English football so he should have a good record as we are one of the bigger sides but it doesnt matter.
Parky has only lost 27 in 88 league games. That's 1 loss in 3.259 games. That's including Parky as the manager during our relegation from the Championship.
Parky has only lost 12 in 59 league games in League One. That's 1 loss in 4.916 games. Including our poor start to the season 4 games lost in 13.
Since we got relegated from the Championship Parky has a win percentage of 47.45%.
If thats not a good record then I don't know what is.
Stop this stupid debate now becauseParky is a very good manager.Let's support him instead of criticise him.
COYR.
Okay right, Parky's a good manager because you've written it in bold capitals - game over for this thread then ;-)
On the other hand, for all the statistics you quote in support of Parky and on paper they may stack up there's another, far more important, one that you overlook...he tends to lose games that MATTER. Those that might have kept us up, or got us up automatically after the good start you pointed out or got us past Swindon.
[cite]Posted By: JiMMy 85[/cite]Incorruptible Addick said of Lawrence and Curbishley: "Don't think any of them got us relegated did they?"
Which i thought was a bit silly. Lawrence in 1989-1990 and Curbishley a decade later? Did I miss something!?
I'm really sad that we've become a club like any other in regards to standing by our man. Sometimes, as with Pards and Dowie, there's no choice to be had. But Parky? Is he a good manager? In my eyes, absolutely. With just enough funds to buy one player, he's put together a full squad that looks capable of remaining in touch with a promotion spot for the duration, giving us a shot of having a run-in that will get us promoted. That, for me, is all he could ever have done this season. I hope we stick with him and he proves the naysayers wrong. If only because we're royally screwed if not.
P.S. Kudos to Chizz and co. for some excellent posts
P.P.S I wish I knew how to quote.
See, once again the issue of how muchtimewe have available has been overlooked. You make the point that Dowie and Pardewhadto go and I'd ask the question what's different about Parky then? The previous two were sacked because we couldn't afford to be relegated but equally wesimply cannot afford to stay another year in this division. Isn't the question not really is he agoodmanager but is Parky goodenoughto give us the very best opportunity to get up this year? Parky has some great qualities don't get me wrong but I don't think we have the time to find out whether he can get the rest of his act together and, lets face it, he is not new to the game having managed at two other clubs.
FWIW I also think the post earlier argueing thatsomeof the pro-Parky/Parky's a good manager views are driven by a wish to appear to be a more loyal supporter than those who feel he's had his time.
Lets hope for all our sakes though that that Parky does turn out to be half as good for CAFC as Lennie or Curbs.
I think time and context are both important elements to the debate.
Parky's record is pretty good in League 1, pretty dire in The Championship.
I believe we are punching below our weight playing in League 1.
Our cashflow may be down, but we still have greater resources than the vast majority of other League 1 clubs.
So we should have a good record in this league since we are playing against mostly smaller clubs.
The 'how much time does Parky get' is also an interesting question.
Does he deserve more time because he is doing a good job, or is his time up because he hasn't got it done yet and we may be regressing?
How much longer can we afford to stay in League 1 are remain solvent with the present structure?
If we need to go up this season, how much are we willing to gamble on Parky, whom it seems is not a sure bet even with those that support him.
It might, at this point, be worth importing this from another thread, for those who missed it :
Posted By: Steve Dowman
"If we don't get promoted this year, who was our last manager to keep us at this level for two seasons? Surely he (PP) would be up there with the greats.''
Posted by Incorruptible Addict:
''Theo Foley didn't quite manage it. He missed by a whisker, being sacked in April 1974 towards the very end of our second season in div three.
Andy Nelson, widely regarded as one of our worst ever managers, got us out of div three at his first attempt.
Mike Bailey also got us out of div three at the first attempt.
Jimmy Seed saw Charlton promoted as champions in his second season in div three.
So if Parky survives the season and doesn't get us promoted, he will officially be the least successful manager in Charlton history since Alex Macfarlane, 1925-28.''
one thing i will thank him for is somehow messing up that lead with swindon in play offs second leg,they would have been mullered at wembley with that team i think we all agree on that.
I think the important point people make is - Parky may be the best manager we can afford. He has done terrific work bringing players in when resourses are so meagre -tactically for me he can be too cautious and set in his ways. He is a builder and not an instant wonder. He has had to contend with losing a lot of players to be fair. The fact he couldn't see Abbot and Benson will never work, concerns me but whilst he is slow to learn, maybe when he does, his qualities can come to the forefront. The players certainly wnat to play for him. Saturday's game is a strange one- win that and things start to look rosy - lose it and the dejection will return. Personally, I have been critical of late but I really would like him to suceed. I thing the odds were aginst him last week but are now 50-50. Win on staurday and they start moving in his favour.
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]The fact he couldn't see Abbot and Benson will never work
That was more to do with Anyinsah and Sodje being injured or not match fit wasn't it? Martin was the only real alternative, and he had been given a few chances in that position.
[cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]I think the important point people make is - Parky may be the best manager we can afford. He has done terrific work bringing players in when resourses are so meagre -tactically for me he can be too cautious and set in his ways. He is a builder and not an instant wonder.
i agree that he's got some decent players in,he definitely has. but to my mind he doesn't seem to be able to get the best out of them and they underperform for him too often,any victories are mostly painful to watch which maybe brings questions to his management skills. is he just a glorified scout then that's somehow in charge of the team?
is he the best manager we can afford when we can't afford not to go up?
hopefully he shuts everyone up with 90 minutes of recognisable football and that no one scores any freak goals against us as we are the only side that ever happens to.
[cite]Posted By: HarryHutchens[/cite]Under Parky we are in my opinion competing below our resources.
I can't agree with that. We don'thaveany resources!
Sorry but what are you basing that on? yes we have lost staff and some resources such as the screen but we have more than some other teams in the league.
We still have one of the best training grounds and stadiums in the league, these are great resources many are envious of. We have some players who are among the higher earners in the league, these are resources. We don't have the best resources in the league but to say we have none is simply not true.
I also can't udnerstand why giving Lennie's stats makes any difference to a conversation about whether Parky is a good manager or not.
[cite]Posted By: HarryHutchens[/cite]Under Parky we are in my opinion competing below our resources.
I can't agree with that. We don'thaveany resources!
Sorry but what are you basing that on? yes we have lost staff and some resources such as the screen but we have more than some other teams in the league.
We still have one of the best training grounds and stadiums in the league, these are great resources many are envious of. We have some players who are among the higher earners in the league, these are resources. We don't have thebestresources in the league but to say we have none is simply not true.
I'm rather glad you said that, DRF. We all know our club has problems, but this ''poor little Charlton, we haven't got a pot to piss in'' attitude that has taken hold in some quarters is getting wearisome. I just had a quick look at the table, and, merely as an example, I'd guess the three clubs immediately above us, Exeter, Rochdale and Carlisle, all have more limited resources than we do...
[quote][cite]Posted By: ThreadKiller[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: MuttleyCAFC[/cite]I think the important point people make is - Parky may be the best manager we can afford. He has done terrific work bringing players in when resourses are so meagre -tactically for me he can be too cautious and set in his ways. He is a builder and not an instant wonder.[/quote]
is he the best manager we can afford when we can't afford not to go up?[/quote]
That in my opinion is the most relevent point. It's all well and good to say that he needs time to "develop" and "build for the future" but given that we are already running at a loss, will Richard Murrey be prepared to put his hand in his pocket again to cover the losses we will make next season if we fail to go up?
[cite]Posted By: Chizz[/cite]It would be interesting to have seen the answers to a similar question, posed two years into the managerial careers of Charlton's longest-serving (and arguably best) managers, Jimmy Seed, Lennie Lawrence and Alan Curbishley.
Was there enough evidence at that stage to assess their potential impact or to predict the brilliant jobs all three were going to go do?
It could be argued that had we pulled the trigger two years into Curbs' regime, we would never have tasted Premiership success, never built the North Stand, never seen a string of internationals play for Charlton and, ultimately never seen the strength of the Academy system.
If we had sacked Jimmy Seed two years into his Charlton job, we would never have seen the metoric rise from third division to first, five cup finals and the glorious day in 1947 when we became the first (and still only) South East London club to win the FA Cup.
If we had sacked Lennie Lawrence two years into his career, we would not have a football club to support.
In each case, the manager we had was the best available at the price we had. Does that ring any bells?
So, by all means continue to question, to knock, to undermine and to force negative comments on the current manager. But also forgive me if I continue to look on the bright side, support my club and get behind its management completely and utterly.
And also remember that, if this general negativity had been listened to in 1935, 1985 and 1997, you would be supporting a very different football club in 2010.
Stirring post Chizz, but it's a little light on concrete points.
This may just be a rocky spell on the course of Parky becoming the greatest manager in our history, but also it may be showing that he's not up to it, and you can't dismiss the latter option just because a different manager in different circumstances with different players has done it before. Just because Lenny did it doesn't make Parky's position now fireproof. Pointing to history (selective history at that) at best shows that manager's might turn it around, but it by no means lays a template that given enough loyalty all managers will be a success.
Norwich last season made what was on the face of it an awful knee jerk decision in hiring the manager they'd just lost 7-1 to, but look at them now: sitting pretty near the top of the championship. The point being that there's no hard and fast rule as to what are the right decisions. There are of course plenty of scenarios where the manager is hastily sacked and it makes things worse, but equally not every decision to stay loyal has proven to be the right one.
Bournemouth raises a very good point about the time pressures we’re under. This would be a different conversation if we were meandering in the lower reaches of the championship where the club would be financially stable and it would be simply a matter of supporter’s patience in waiting for success and giving Parky time. But we can’t be ‘building’ in this division whilst every season we stay here we’re shedding resources and players. There has to be a serious question in the back of the mind as to whether Parkinson is the man to take us up this year, and unfortunately the pressure of that question can’t be alleviated when the future stability of the club is so reliant on promotion.
My point being that 'loyalty' shouldn't simply shut down debate. I'm still a Parky supporter but if we were to hit a disastrous run of results (say lose the next 7 out of 10) then he'd probably have to go, rather than being retained on the airy assumption that we should stay loyal because he might be the next Curbs. He also might not be, and everything has to be weighed up accordingly.
I picked the three longest-serving managers. These three happen to coincide with the three, generally regarded as the "best" managers in Charlton's past. Although I do not think that is merely a coincidence.
My point is this: the ideal situation to be in is to have a successful manager for a long period of time. You can't achieve that if you sack a manager after two years.
My point is this: the ideal situation to be in is to have a successful manager for a long period of time. You can't achieve that if you sack a manager after two years.
But first you have to pick the right manager.
Changing managers in itself is not a bad thing and nor is longevity in the post a good thing per se, as it does not necessarily bring success, as Sussex Addick demonstrates above in a very thoughtful post.
You can look at Ferguson at Man U and find your ''ideal situation'' of success and longevity. But you can also look at the team that keeps getting the better of Ferguson recently. I think Chelsea have now had five managers in five or six seasons - Ranieri, Mourinho, Grant, Hiddink and now Ancelotti. And the least succesful of them was the one who stayed longest, Ranieiri.
Or look at Arsenal. Wenger has now been there 14 years. He won three league titles and three FA Cups in his first 7/8 years. But he now hasn't won anything - or even come second - in five years.
Our problem at Charlton is not that we don't give our managers enough time. It is that we're not very good at picking suitable ones. They might all be good coaches, but in Dowie, Reed and Pardew we picked two very rum characters and another who was toally unsuited temperementally. I'm not going to criticise Parky as unsuitable while he's still in post. But he has undeniably continued our trend with changing managers - each time we do so, we just seem to spiral further downwards under the new guy. On the other hand, if you make the right managerial change, like Norwich or Blackpool, you can expect to get pretty instant results.
As said elsewhere, the last time we made a successful managerial change which actually led to an improvement in our fortunes was when Steve Gritt was shown the door 15 years ago!
[cite]Posted By: incorruptible addick[/cite]As said elsewhere, the last time we made a successful managerial change which actually led to an improvement in our fortunes was when Steve Gritt was shown the door 15 years ago!
Some would argue that that alone is a very good reason for not changing the manager.
[cite]Posted By: incorruptible addick[/cite]As said elsewhere, the last time we made a successful managerial change which actually led to an improvement in our fortunes was when Steve Gritt was shown the door 15 years ago!
Some would argue that that alone is a very good reason fornotchanging the manager.
No. It's an argument for picking the right bloke (but don't ask me who he is!)
Comments
Jimmy, yes you did miss something. You didn't read Chizz's post or my reply properly. Please try to keep up !
Chizz's question was specifically about the first two years that Seed, Lawrence and Curbishley were in charge and a comparison of those initial periods with Parky's first two years.
I answered that specific question about the records of those managers in their first two years.
None of them got us relegated in the period under discussion - with the exception of Parky.
So please don't call me ''silly'' and cite as evidence of my idiocy something that happened six or seven years after the period we were discussing!
Almost everyone will get relegated at some point - Lennie and Curbs certainly did. Jimmy Seed didn't get Charlton relegated, but he did get sacked and then went to Millwall and got them relegated instead (they had to apply for re-election - oh, what joy there musty have been in SE7 that season!)
Enoch Powell said that all political careers end in failure. With very few exceptions, the same is true of being a football manager...
See, once again the issue of how much time we have available has been overlooked. You make the point that Dowie and Pardew had to go and I'd ask the question what's different about Parky then? The previous two were sacked because we couldn't afford to be relegated but equally we simply cannot afford to stay another year in this division. Isn't the question not really is he a good manager but is Parky good enough to give us the very best opportunity to get up this year? Parky has some great qualities don't get me wrong but I don't think we have the time to find out whether he can get the rest of his act together and, lets face it, he is not new to the game having managed at two other clubs.
FWIW I also think the post earlier argueing that some of the pro-Parky/Parky's a good manager views are driven by a wish to appear to be a more loyal supporter than those who feel he's had his time.
Lets hope for all our sakes though that that Parky does turn out to be half as good for CAFC as Lennie or Curbs.
Tactics-pre match 1/10 weakest part of his game, often seems to set us up wrong
Tactics-in game 1/10 always seems too slow to react to needed problems on the pitch. Might help if he sat up in the atnds to get a better view like curbs did sometimes.
Man management 5/10 they all say he is good, is that a sign he is too soft? Results certainly don't make him look good
Transfer activity/squad building 7/10 think he has done a good job here with limited funds, though for players at this level I guess we are still a bit of a draw, for now.
Results (this is after all the only aspect he can be judged on objectively) 5/10 still deficient for CAFC in this league and with this squad, he has assembled a decent squad on paper, but can he get what he should out of them, I hope so, but doubt it.
Arent we still paying for the North Stand?
That's another very good point in a thread of very good points, so well done to American Addick for creating a context in which we could disscuss the managership question rationally and objectively (mostly).
Clearly there are some who genuinely think Parky is a class act as a manager and the passion with which they hold that view has surprised me, I confess.
But at the end of the day, I still think the overwhelming aversion among Charlton supporters to sacking managers stems from the fact that every time we do, things just seem to get worse. The last sacking at Charlton that actually led to an improvement in our fortunes was 15 years ago when poor old Gritty was relieved of his (joint) duties!
It has been said that the players like him and that is used as "amunition" against him, but actually what dailly said was not that he liked Parkie but that he had the makings of a good manager. Dailly does not strike me as someone who suffers fools gladly and would not support a manager just because he is nice, Dailly came back to get promotion and that was the tenure (sp?) of his conversation with Murray prior to signing.
I'm not sure where we get the highest wages in the division tag from, we are probably in the top 10, but we are a london club and players will accept lower wages for outside london teams than us, wage bills are not necessarily the best means of camparing the quality of the squad, we also have a high non player fixed overhead and variable maintenance cost in the Valley and Sparrow Lane (Peterborough still train at a local authority sports centre in Castor).
I will be interested to see how Brighton progress during the season, at the moment i would say that Poyet is better than this league and comparisons against him reflect more on Murrays dismissal of him than Parkie, however I am not sure if Poyets game can work if we have pitches this winter like we did last and he will then need to adapt his game.
I see a lot of similar critisiscm thrown at parkie to what was thrown at Curbs, it is only since he left and two relegations that Curbs has become a saint to all fans, i can still rememeber while he was being reluctantly interviewed on the pitch by Brian Cole someone shouting "F.... off to West Ham". parkie is ok, not great not awful just ok, I think he could turn into a decent non premier manager and I would not be surpirsed that if we were to miss promotion this season he were not to be here next season - no suprises there, but if we get promoted it would equally not suprise me if he got poached by a better placed Championship team.
Parkinson is a very good manager and its pathetic to keep seeing and hearing how people dont think he is good. We had a fantastic start to the season last year but we kept quite a few players from the squad Parky had in the Championship. This year we haven't done as well but we couldnt hardly have got a better start especially with our completely new squad we have now got. We're 3 points off 2nd for crying out loud!
We won on Saturday and we scored our first 4 goals in a match since Millwall at home last December. Yes we threw away a 3 goal lead and that isn't acceptable, Parky knows that but he is A VERY GOOD MANAGER! Not only he has got a very good record, but he buys/signs some great players for a League One side. Players wouldn't sign if they didn't think he was a good manager. Yes people can argue we are in the 3rd tier of English football so he should have a good record as we are one of the bigger sides but it doesnt matter.
Parky has only lost 27 in 88 league games. That's 1 loss in 3.259 games. That's including Parky as the manager during our relegation from the Championship.
Parky has only lost 12 in 59 league games in League One. That's 1 loss in 4.916 games. Including our poor start to the season 4 games lost in 13.
Since we got relegated from the Championship Parky has a win percentage of 47.45%.
If thats not a good record then I don't know what is.
Stop this stupid debate now because Parky is a very good manager. Let's support him instead of criticise him.
COYR.
Oh dear.
Okay right, Parky's a good manager because you've written it in bold capitals - game over for this thread then ;-)
On the other hand, for all the statistics you quote in support of Parky and on paper they may stack up there's another, far more important, one that you overlook...he tends to lose games that MATTER. Those that might have kept us up, or got us up automatically after the good start you pointed out or got us past Swindon.
lol
I think time and context are both important elements to the debate.
Parky's record is pretty good in League 1, pretty dire in The Championship.
I believe we are punching below our weight playing in League 1.
Our cashflow may be down, but we still have greater resources than the vast majority of other League 1 clubs.
So we should have a good record in this league since we are playing against mostly smaller clubs.
The 'how much time does Parky get' is also an interesting question.
Does he deserve more time because he is doing a good job, or is his time up because he hasn't got it done yet and we may be regressing?
How much longer can we afford to stay in League 1 are remain solvent with the present structure?
If we need to go up this season, how much are we willing to gamble on Parky, whom it seems is not a sure bet even with those that support him.
Is he good enough to get us up?
Posted By: Steve Dowman
"If we don't get promoted this year, who was our last manager to keep us at this level for two seasons? Surely he (PP) would be up there with the greats.''
Posted by Incorruptible Addict:
''Theo Foley didn't quite manage it. He missed by a whisker, being sacked in April 1974 towards the very end of our second season in div three.
Andy Nelson, widely regarded as one of our worst ever managers, got us out of div three at his first attempt.
Mike Bailey also got us out of div three at the first attempt.
Jimmy Seed saw Charlton promoted as champions in his second season in div three.
So if Parky survives the season and doesn't get us promoted, he will officially be the least successful manager in Charlton history since Alex Macfarlane, 1925-28.''
quote]
Dont post then!! :o)
for gawd's sake oohaah don't go giving him ideas.
i agree that he's got some decent players in,he definitely has. but to my mind he doesn't seem to be able to get the best out of them and they underperform for him too often,any victories are mostly painful to watch which maybe brings questions to his management skills. is he just a glorified scout then that's somehow in charge of the team?
is he the best manager we can afford when we can't afford not to go up?
hopefully he shuts everyone up with 90 minutes of recognisable football and that no one scores any freak goals against us as we are the only side that ever happens to.
Sorry but what are you basing that on? yes we have lost staff and some resources such as the screen but we have more than some other teams in the league.
We still have one of the best training grounds and stadiums in the league, these are great resources many are envious of. We have some players who are among the higher earners in the league, these are resources. We don't have the best resources in the league but to say we have none is simply not true.
I also can't udnerstand why giving Lennie's stats makes any difference to a conversation about whether Parky is a good manager or not.
I'm rather glad you said that, DRF. We all know our club has problems, but this ''poor little Charlton, we haven't got a pot to piss in'' attitude that has taken hold in some quarters is getting wearisome. I just had a quick look at the table, and, merely as an example, I'd guess the three clubs immediately above us, Exeter, Rochdale and Carlisle, all have more limited resources than we do...
is he the best manager we can afford when we can't afford not to go up?[/quote]
That in my opinion is the most relevent point. It's all well and good to say that he needs time to "develop" and "build for the future" but given that we are already running at a loss, will Richard Murrey be prepared to put his hand in his pocket again to cover the losses we will make next season if we fail to go up?
Stirring post Chizz, but it's a little light on concrete points.
This may just be a rocky spell on the course of Parky becoming the greatest manager in our history, but also it may be showing that he's not up to it, and you can't dismiss the latter option just because a different manager in different circumstances with different players has done it before. Just because Lenny did it doesn't make Parky's position now fireproof. Pointing to history (selective history at that) at best shows that manager's might turn it around, but it by no means lays a template that given enough loyalty all managers will be a success.
Norwich last season made what was on the face of it an awful knee jerk decision in hiring the manager they'd just lost 7-1 to, but look at them now: sitting pretty near the top of the championship. The point being that there's no hard and fast rule as to what are the right decisions. There are of course plenty of scenarios where the manager is hastily sacked and it makes things worse, but equally not every decision to stay loyal has proven to be the right one.
Bournemouth raises a very good point about the time pressures we’re under. This would be a different conversation if we were meandering in the lower reaches of the championship where the club would be financially stable and it would be simply a matter of supporter’s patience in waiting for success and giving Parky time. But we can’t be ‘building’ in this division whilst every season we stay here we’re shedding resources and players. There has to be a serious question in the back of the mind as to whether Parkinson is the man to take us up this year, and unfortunately the pressure of that question can’t be alleviated when the future stability of the club is so reliant on promotion.
My point being that 'loyalty' shouldn't simply shut down debate. I'm still a Parky supporter but if we were to hit a disastrous run of results (say lose the next 7 out of 10) then he'd probably have to go, rather than being retained on the airy assumption that we should stay loyal because he might be the next Curbs. He also might not be, and everything has to be weighed up accordingly.
My point is this: the ideal situation to be in is to have a successful manager for a long period of time. You can't achieve that if you sack a manager after two years.
But first you have to pick the right manager.
Changing managers in itself is not a bad thing and nor is longevity in the post a good thing per se, as it does not necessarily bring success, as Sussex Addick demonstrates above in a very thoughtful post.
You can look at Ferguson at Man U and find your ''ideal situation'' of success and longevity. But you can also look at the team that keeps getting the better of Ferguson recently. I think Chelsea have now had five managers in five or six seasons - Ranieri, Mourinho, Grant, Hiddink and now Ancelotti. And the least succesful of them was the one who stayed longest, Ranieiri.
Or look at Arsenal. Wenger has now been there 14 years. He won three league titles and three FA Cups in his first 7/8 years. But he now hasn't won anything - or even come second - in five years.
Our problem at Charlton is not that we don't give our managers enough time. It is that we're not very good at picking suitable ones. They might all be good coaches, but in Dowie, Reed and Pardew we picked two very rum characters and another who was toally unsuited temperementally. I'm not going to criticise Parky as unsuitable while he's still in post. But he has undeniably continued our trend with changing managers - each time we do so, we just seem to spiral further downwards under the new guy. On the other hand, if you make the right managerial change, like Norwich or Blackpool, you can expect to get pretty instant results.
As said elsewhere, the last time we made a successful managerial change which actually led to an improvement in our fortunes was when Steve Gritt was shown the door 15 years ago!
No. It's an argument for picking the right bloke (but don't ask me who he is!)