I went to Qatar once I saw England play Brazil, 2009 ish I think
I came away from that one game thinking that football should never ever ever be played there, the locals were shocking
When normal England fans in a radisson hotel start getting kicked in for singing a few songs you know it’s an issue
I love following England all round the world but no chance I’m going there other than genuine final tickets
I was at that game too, organisation was average at best. I met up with a few Charlton lads there before the match, they stayed at the Ritz and drank beers in the pool bar all day and loved it, but I heard there were some issues elsewhere like you were saying.
old thread revisited .. according to today's 'Times' .. 'thousands' of migrant workers have died during the building of the World Cup stadia .. THOUSANDS !! .. even the ancient Roman emperors would have balked at that number .. too late now, BUT as we all know, what a disgrace it was to give this medieval country such a prestigious tournament
Died of what??
Boredom.
They died due to poor levels and standards of health and safety in the construction of the stadia and infrastructure required to host the World Cup. Absolutely fucking disgusting that this tournament was given to Quatar and those responsible for doing so are 100% complicit with those deaths. Appalling working conditions and at least 6500 deaths. Probably much higher.
How the hell can 6500 people die due to poor H&S standards??? were they throwing themselves off like lemmings 🤷🏻♂️
Not just accidents. There are many cases of workers being forced to graft in 30 degree temperatures for twelve hours and then just dying during the night. This World Cup is without doubt the crowning turd in the water pipe (credits to General Melchett) of FIFA’s corruption and abject incompetence in running world football. Personally I would like to see the biggest footballing nations boycott this tournament and hold a smaller competition before breaking away from FIFA altogether to form a new governing body akin to the Premier League. Im sure if the top six or seven nations could be persuaded to leave then the medium and smaller nations would follow. FIFA are disgusting.
At least the very minimum teams competing should do is donate their earnings to a fund to support the families of those that have died. They should also refuse to engage with the Qatari dignitaries and those bastards from FIFA.
Have to admit, I also struggle with the notion that as many as 6,500 have died directly as a result of the conditions.
Not to suggest everything has been done all above board every step of the way, but that number does seem absurdly high. Is there sufficient evidence of 6,500 people?
The way the country was handed the tournament will always wrangle with people, and I’ve always had a feeling in the back of my mind that many will latch onto any negative rumour they can.
The alcohol one is a common one. The suggestion constantly being made that alcohol is completely banned and nobody can have a drink etc. It’s not true. Yes, it’s more regulated than it would be in the West - but it’s something that people have just chosen to believe.
What a strange thing to say. The numbers are compiled based on information recorded from embassies of the nations that the majority of the migrant workers are drawn from. That's the only way to draw them because Qatar don't want to share their information honestly. The numbers can only be drawn from certain countries, meaning that some large suppliers of migrant workers' death tolls can't be counted. So you're right about one thing at least: the number probably is wrong, because unless people from the Philippines or Kenya are immune to these sorts of deaths then the number of dead is likely significantly higher. The workers aren't just killed by falling off buildings like I think many assume, they suffer severe respiratory issues and heart strain working ridiculous hours in the Qatar summer, as well as suffering in horrific conditions in their provided accommodation. There have been suicides due to the conditions, and even an electrocution when a flood connected with exposed electric wires in a living area. I don't think the issue is that people are upset about the corrupt way the WC was awarded, I think it's more the other way around, that there are people who love a bit of football and would rather not think about the life cost that has gone into the sportswashing exercise (and Michel Platini's pocket) so wave it off and diminish it. I don't care about not being able to drink at a World Cup, I don't drink here, I would care about sitting in a seat put in place by a human rights abusing autocracy off the backs of thousands of dead humans so I can watch Harry Maguire fall on his stupid giant face though
If you had properly read what I’d said, you’ll see that I pointed out that I was struggling to grasp the number unless there is direct evidence of it being as sizeable as reported. If indeed there is evidence, as you are alluding to, then of course it is an absolutely tragic outcome.
I know there are a lot of people who are refusing to go to this World Cup for moral reasons, which I understand, and I’ve even had a couple of people question my decision for going.
If I’m being completely honest and transparent - of course a big driver is the fact that I simply want to go to a World Cup. I’m there to enjoy football, like pretty much everyone else.
But if we factor in the controversy/moral aspect of this, I also believe that positive societal change cannot be generated from the outside.
Will this World Cup bring about such change? That remains to be seen.
Does a World Cup in empty stadiums really make a difference to Qatar? Those who preach to others about not going will still be sat at home watching it on the television helping to generate the major broadcasting revenue (the biggest money maker of all).
old thread revisited .. according to today's 'Times' .. 'thousands' of migrant workers have died during the building of the World Cup stadia .. THOUSANDS !! .. even the ancient Roman emperors would have balked at that number .. too late now, BUT as we all know, what a disgrace it was to give this medieval country such a prestigious tournament
Died of what??
Boredom.
They died due to poor levels and standards of health and safety in the construction of the stadia and infrastructure required to host the World Cup. Absolutely fucking disgusting that this tournament was given to Quatar and those responsible for doing so are 100% complicit with those deaths. Appalling working conditions and at least 6500 deaths. Probably much higher.
How the hell can 6500 people die due to poor H&S standards??? were they throwing themselves off like lemmings 🤷🏻♂️
Not just accidents. There are many cases of workers being forced to graft in 30 degree temperatures for twelve hours and then just dying during the night. This World Cup is without doubt the crowning turd in the water pipe (credits to General Melchett) of FIFA’s corruption and abject incompetence in running world football. Personally I would like to see the biggest footballing nations boycott this tournament and hold a smaller competition before breaking away from FIFA altogether to form a new governing body akin to the Premier League. Im sure if the top six or seven nations could be persuaded to leave then the medium and smaller nations would follow. FIFA are disgusting.
I have been saying this for a long time. All it would take is Italy (yeah - I know), Spain, Germany and England to leave the fold IMHO. France and Netherlands possibly. Then the big two in South America would join and then the whole house of cards would come tumbling down.
Thousands of ticket holders were refused entry to the ground last night as the organisers had bussed in coachloads of Indian/Nepalese labourers to make the ground look full!!
I understand that Qatar used the same ticket agency Charlton did for our recent free ticket offers.
old thread revisited .. according to today's 'Times' .. 'thousands' of migrant workers have died during the building of the World Cup stadia .. THOUSANDS !! .. even the ancient Roman emperors would have balked at that number .. too late now, BUT as we all know, what a disgrace it was to give this medieval country such a prestigious tournament
Died of what??
Boredom.
They died due to poor levels and standards of health and safety in the construction of the stadia and infrastructure required to host the World Cup. Absolutely fucking disgusting that this tournament was given to Quatar and those responsible for doing so are 100% complicit with those deaths. Appalling working conditions and at least 6500 deaths. Probably much higher.
How the hell can 6500 people die due to poor H&S standards??? were they throwing themselves off like lemmings 🤷🏻♂️
Not just accidents. There are many cases of workers being forced to graft in 30 degree temperatures for twelve hours and then just dying during the night. This World Cup is without doubt the crowning turd in the water pipe (credits to General Melchett) of FIFA’s corruption and abject incompetence in running world football. Personally I would like to see the biggest footballing nations boycott this tournament and hold a smaller competition before breaking away from FIFA altogether to form a new governing body akin to the Premier League. Im sure if the top six or seven nations could be persuaded to leave then the medium and smaller nations would follow. FIFA are disgusting.
I have been saying this for a long time. All it would take is Italy (yeah - I know), Spain, Germany and England to leave the fold IMHO. France and Netherlands possibly. Then the big two in South America would join and then the whole house of cards would come tumbling down.
Didn’t this story do the rounds a few years back with tales of workers having their passports taken etc?
Yes, they take their passports so they can't leave and withhold their salaries making them, effectively, slaves. It's disgusting.
That’s the deal for every non national that works in Qatar, at whatever level. I know people that work for / worked for Qatar Air. You surrender your passport as part of your condition of employment, and have to apply for it back in order to travel. There are many other stories I have heard about working for Qatari businesses that suggest it’s not a place where you would want to be. Their getting the World Cup was perhaps the most disgraceful decision in sporting history.
This is completely wrong btw. It is actually illegal here for your company to hold onto your passport. You definitely don't then have to apply for it back in order to travel. We are able to travel freely, but if you are a senior manager you may have to apply for your travel request if you are deemed critical for the running of a company, but this is limited to less than 5% of a companies workforce.
In which case my understanding on passports was incorrect...thanks.
6,500 dead, just to host a world cup. You think they might have stopped and improved things when it got to 20. Or really stopped and had a big sit down when it got to 50, I mean jesus. 50 people dead. But... 6,500? What kind of sociopaths in Qatar think that's a price worth paying for a world cup?
I just checked if FIFA had commented on this. They have: "FIFA, together with its local partners responsible for the preparation and delivery of the FIFA World Cup 2022, is fully committed to safeguarding the rights of workers contributing to the hosting of FIFA events."
i'm wondering what ordinary fans will find to do when they are out there, other than sit by the hotel pool and drink beer, presumably Heineken, and presumably at an exotic price per bottle. And where will they eat? Like I said, ordinary fans, not well-off types on a hospitality jaunt paid by their companies.
i'm wondering what ordinary fans will find to do when they are out there, other than sit by the hotel pool and drink beer, presumably Heineken, and presumably at an exotic price per bottle. And where will they eat? Like I said, ordinary fans, not well-off types on a hospitality jaunt paid by their companies.
A lot of fans will be going to 2x games a day I reckon, especially as they are all in such close proximity. That’s what I plan to do.
i'm wondering what ordinary fans will find to do when they are out there, other than sit by the hotel pool and drink beer, presumably Heineken, and presumably at an exotic price per bottle. And where will they eat? Like I said, ordinary fans, not well-off types on a hospitality jaunt paid by their companies.
There's a bit to do over here, enough for a short trip for sure.
I think fans going to this need a long hard look in the mirror.
You won’t be watching any games on television then?
watching games on BBC won't make anybody any money at all watching games on ITV probably won't make anybody much if anything either - how do ITV charge the advertisers based on mostly made up/guessed audience figures? boycott the FIFA affiliated tournament sponsors much like we're boycotting all the shiteating ghoulish corporations still dealing with psychopath murderer Putin and his mob.
Have to admit, I also struggle with the notion that as many as 6,500 have died directly as a result of the conditions.
Not to suggest everything has been done all above board every step of the way, but that number does seem absurdly high. Is there sufficient evidence of 6,500 people?
The way the country was handed the tournament will always wrangle with people, and I’ve always had a feeling in the back of my mind that many will latch onto any negative rumour they can.
The alcohol one is a common one. The suggestion constantly being made that alcohol is completely banned and nobody can have a drink etc. It’s not true. Yes, it’s more regulated than it would be in the West - but it’s something that people have just chosen to believe.
What a strange thing to say. The numbers are compiled based on information recorded from embassies of the nations that the majority of the migrant workers are drawn from. That's the only way to draw them because Qatar don't want to share their information honestly. The numbers can only be drawn from certain countries, meaning that some large suppliers of migrant workers' death tolls can't be counted. So you're right about one thing at least: the number probably is wrong, because unless people from the Philippines or Kenya are immune to these sorts of deaths then the number of dead is likely significantly higher. The workers aren't just killed by falling off buildings like I think many assume, they suffer severe respiratory issues and heart strain working ridiculous hours in the Qatar summer, as well as suffering in horrific conditions in their provided accommodation. There have been suicides due to the conditions, and even an electrocution when a flood connected with exposed electric wires in a living area. I don't think the issue is that people are upset about the corrupt way the WC was awarded, I think it's more the other way around, that there are people who love a bit of football and would rather not think about the life cost that has gone into the sportswashing exercise (and Michel Platini's pocket) so wave it off and diminish it. I don't care about not being able to drink at a World Cup, I don't drink here, I would care about sitting in a seat put in place by a human rights abusing autocracy off the backs of thousands of dead humans so I can watch Harry Maguire fall on his stupid giant face though
If you had properly read what I’d said, you’ll see that I pointed out that I was struggling to grasp the number unless there is direct evidence of it being as sizeable as reported. If indeed there is evidence, as you are alluding to, then of course it is an absolutely tragic outcome.
I know there are a lot of people who are refusing to go to this World Cup for moral reasons, which I understand, and I’ve even had a couple of people question my decision for going.
If I’m being completely honest and transparent - of course a big driver is the fact that I simply want to go to a World Cup. I’m there to enjoy football, like pretty much everyone else.
But if we factor in the controversy/moral aspect of this, I also believe that positive societal change cannot be generated from the outside.
Will this World Cup bring about such change? That remains to be seen.
Does a World Cup in empty stadiums really make a difference to Qatar? Those who preach to others about not going will still be sat at home watching it on the television helping to generate the major broadcasting revenue (the biggest money maker of all).
I did read what you said, and the bit where you cast doubt on the numbers like you don't have the same Google that I do. This World Cup won't bring about any change as long as people continue to close their eyes to the facts, and question the reality because they'd rather not grapple with the truth. Positive societal change can't be generated solely from the outside, but pressure from outside foments the changes inside. If everyone just covers their eyes and ears then nothing changes at all, it's complacent to just shrug and say 'ah, nobody ever fixed anything by caring'. It's entirely up to you what you do with going or not, fill your boots, but I don't think it's helpful to claim ignorance when the facts are at your fingertips
I think fans going to this need a long hard look in the mirror.
You won’t be watching any games on television then?
watching games on BBC won't make anybody any money at all watching games on ITV probably won't make anybody much if anything either - how do ITV charge the advertisers based on mostly made up/guessed audience figures? boycott the FIFA affiliated tournament sponsors much like we're boycotting all the shiteating ghoulish corporations still dealing with psychopath murderer Putin and his mob.
..That's right, because they acquire the rights to broadcast matches for free....
Have to admit, I also struggle with the notion that as many as 6,500 have died directly as a result of the conditions.
Not to suggest everything has been done all above board every step of the way, but that number does seem absurdly high. Is there sufficient evidence of 6,500 people?
The way the country was handed the tournament will always wrangle with people, and I’ve always had a feeling in the back of my mind that many will latch onto any negative rumour they can.
The alcohol one is a common one. The suggestion constantly being made that alcohol is completely banned and nobody can have a drink etc. It’s not true. Yes, it’s more regulated than it would be in the West - but it’s something that people have just chosen to believe.
What a strange thing to say. The numbers are compiled based on information recorded from embassies of the nations that the majority of the migrant workers are drawn from. That's the only way to draw them because Qatar don't want to share their information honestly. The numbers can only be drawn from certain countries, meaning that some large suppliers of migrant workers' death tolls can't be counted. So you're right about one thing at least: the number probably is wrong, because unless people from the Philippines or Kenya are immune to these sorts of deaths then the number of dead is likely significantly higher. The workers aren't just killed by falling off buildings like I think many assume, they suffer severe respiratory issues and heart strain working ridiculous hours in the Qatar summer, as well as suffering in horrific conditions in their provided accommodation. There have been suicides due to the conditions, and even an electrocution when a flood connected with exposed electric wires in a living area. I don't think the issue is that people are upset about the corrupt way the WC was awarded, I think it's more the other way around, that there are people who love a bit of football and would rather not think about the life cost that has gone into the sportswashing exercise (and Michel Platini's pocket) so wave it off and diminish it. I don't care about not being able to drink at a World Cup, I don't drink here, I would care about sitting in a seat put in place by a human rights abusing autocracy off the backs of thousands of dead humans so I can watch Harry Maguire fall on his stupid giant face though
If you had properly read what I’d said, you’ll see that I pointed out that I was struggling to grasp the number unless there is direct evidence of it being as sizeable as reported. If indeed there is evidence, as you are alluding to, then of course it is an absolutely tragic outcome.
I know there are a lot of people who are refusing to go to this World Cup for moral reasons, which I understand, and I’ve even had a couple of people question my decision for going.
If I’m being completely honest and transparent - of course a big driver is the fact that I simply want to go to a World Cup. I’m there to enjoy football, like pretty much everyone else.
But if we factor in the controversy/moral aspect of this, I also believe that positive societal change cannot be generated from the outside.
Will this World Cup bring about such change? That remains to be seen.
Does a World Cup in empty stadiums really make a difference to Qatar? Those who preach to others about not going will still be sat at home watching it on the television helping to generate the major broadcasting revenue (the biggest money maker of all).
I did read what you said, and the bit where you cast doubt on the numbers like you don't have the same Google that I do. This World Cup won't bring about any change as long as people continue to close their eyes to the facts, and question the reality because they'd rather not grapple with the truth. Positive societal change can't be generated solely from the outside, but pressure from outside foments the changes inside. If everyone just covers their eyes and ears then nothing changes at all, it's complacent to just shrug and say 'ah, nobody ever fixed anything by caring'. It's entirely up to you what you do with going or not, fill your boots, but I don't think it's helpful to claim ignorance when the facts are at your fingertips
If I wanted to claim ignorance then I wouldn’t be in this thread willing to debate the issue.
I don’t believe every single thing I read via a Google search, or in the newspapers, or on social media - I’m sure you don’t either.
Not suggesting it hasn’t happened. But for a long time now, there are different numbers being thrown about and before you know it everything is taken as gospel. Has it happened to the scale that has been claimed? I don’t know. One source will say one thing and another source will suggest something completely different.
Like I stated earlier, there were major political/societal issues surrounding the last 3-4 World Cups before this one and very few people wanted to talk about it. With Qatar being considered an ‘unattractive’ venue in a footballing sense, a lot of people will want to believe absolutely every rumour/statistic that gets put out there.
I don’t agree with your point about change not being possible because people aren’t willing to question the reality. This very topic is pretty much on the lips of anyone who brings up the 2022 World Cup, and has been for years now. It’s not as if everyone is burying their head in the sand and not talking about it.
I think fans going to this need a long hard look in the mirror.
You won’t be watching any games on television then?
Where to even start with this? Criticising people going means I won't be watching it on TV? The sun affects people in strange ways.
Start by answering the question?
Your statement clearly suggests that those who attend are acting immorally. My guess is that is because it involves matchgoers handing money over to the organisation / country involved?
Assuming you will be watching on television, is that not validating the tournament just in a more indirect, assimilated manner?
FIFA made $4.6 Billion in 2018, and 49% of that came from broadcasting rights.
If you expect people to boycott the product by not going, then why wouldn’t you do the same in your own way?
old thread revisited .. according to today's 'Times' .. 'thousands' of migrant workers have died during the building of the World Cup stadia .. THOUSANDS !! .. even the ancient Roman emperors would have balked at that number .. too late now, BUT as we all know, what a disgrace it was to give this medieval country such a prestigious tournament
Died of what??
Boredom.
They died due to poor levels and standards of health and safety in the construction of the stadia and infrastructure required to host the World Cup. Absolutely fucking disgusting that this tournament was given to Quatar and those responsible for doing so are 100% complicit with those deaths. Appalling working conditions and at least 6500 deaths. Probably much higher.
How the hell can 6500 people die due to poor H&S standards??? were they throwing themselves off like lemmings 🤷🏻♂️
Not just accidents. There are many cases of workers being forced to graft in 30 degree temperatures for twelve hours and then just dying during the night. This World Cup is without doubt the crowning turd in the water pipe (credits to General Melchett) of FIFA’s corruption and abject incompetence in running world football. Personally I would like to see the biggest footballing nations boycott this tournament and hold a smaller competition before breaking away from FIFA altogether to form a new governing body akin to the Premier League. Im sure if the top six or seven nations could be persuaded to leave then the medium and smaller nations would follow. FIFA are disgusting.
And lots of suicides amongst the migrant workforce
Will be interesting to see how much slavery (actual slavery that’s happening now, not 300 years ago) and black (and Asian) lives really matter to this current crop of footballers.
Was there last week on a cruise. The tour guide told us that every household will be paid to free up a room in their house for supporter to stay. All food and travelling to and back from matches for fans staying with families will be paid for by the government. Fans just have to pay for flights and match tickets (and beer).They are expecting 1.5 million visitors. Also 5 cruise ships have been hired to house supporters at the docks.
Our cruise ship was moored near 'stadium 974' the name was given as the stadium is built using 974 shipping containers and will be dismantled after the world cup (5 games) packed into the containers and given to an African country (no doubt as part of their vote to give them the tournament.
Comments
I know there are a lot of people who are refusing to go to this World Cup for moral reasons, which I understand, and I’ve even had a couple of people question my decision for going.
I just checked if FIFA had commented on this. They have: "FIFA, together with its local partners responsible for the preparation and delivery of the FIFA World Cup 2022, is fully committed to safeguarding the rights of workers contributing to the hosting of FIFA events."
Really!
i'm wondering what ordinary fans will find to do when they are out there, other than sit by the hotel pool and drink beer, presumably Heineken, and presumably at an exotic price per bottle. And where will they eat? Like I said, ordinary fans, not well-off types on a hospitality jaunt paid by their companies.
watching games on ITV probably won't make anybody much if anything either - how do ITV charge the advertisers based on mostly made up/guessed audience figures?
boycott the FIFA affiliated tournament sponsors much like we're boycotting all the shiteating ghoulish corporations still dealing with psychopath murderer Putin and his mob.
Where to even start with this? Criticising people going means I won't be watching it on TV? The sun affects people in strange ways.
I don’t believe every single thing I read via a Google search, or in the newspapers, or on social media - I’m sure you don’t either.
I don’t agree with your point about change not being possible because people aren’t willing to question the reality. This very topic is pretty much on the lips of anyone who brings up the 2022 World Cup, and has been for years now. It’s not as if everyone is burying their head in the sand and not talking about it.
Your statement clearly suggests that those who attend are acting immorally. My guess is that is because it involves matchgoers handing money over to the organisation / country involved?
Assuming you will be watching on television, is that not validating the tournament just in a more indirect, assimilated manner?
FIFA made $4.6 Billion in 2018, and 49% of that came from broadcasting rights.