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Wheresmeticket? said:Taxi_Lad said:ShootersHillGuru said:SoundAsa£ said:Taxi_Lad said:Lincsaddick said:old thread revisited .. according to today's 'Times' .. 'thousands' of migrant workers have died during the building of the World Cup stadia .. THOUSANDS !! .. even the ancient Roman emperors would have balked at that number .. too late now, BUT as we all know, what a disgrace it was to give this medieval country such a prestigious tournament
were they throwing themselves off like lemmings 🤷🏻♂️1 -
cafctom said:Friend Or Defoe said:cafctom said:Friend Or Defoe said:I think fans going to this need a long hard look in the mirror.
Where to even start with this? Criticising people going means I won't be watching it on TV? The sun affects people in strange ways.
Your statement clearly suggests that those who attend are acting immorally. My guess is that is because it involves matchgoers handing money over to the organisation / country involved?
Assuming you will be watching on television, is that not validating the tournament just in a more indirect, assimilated manner?
FIFA made $4.6 Billion in 2018, and 49% of that came from broadcasting rights.If you expect people to boycott the product by not going, then why wouldn’t you do the same in your own way?
I'm not going to visit a country due to it's terrible human rights record.
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PragueAddick said:@QatarNapsy
i'm wondering what ordinary fans will find to do when they are out there, other than sit by the hotel pool and drink beer, presumably Heineken, and presumably at an exotic price per bottle. And where will they eat? Like I said, ordinary fans, not well-off types on a hospitality jaunt paid by their companies.
Given a lot of fans will be coming from much colder climates at that time, i'd guess that's probably exactly what they'd want to do. Sunbathe, eat, drink, maybe play a bit of golf.
Also it's a world cup, so if you're going out there during the group stage there will be 3-4 games to watch every day.2 -
addick1956 said:MillwallFan said:Be interesting to see how much slavery (actual slavery that’s happening now, not 300 years ago) and black (and Asian) lives really matter to this current crop of footballers.0
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cafctom said:Garrymanilow said:cafctom said:Garrymanilow said:cafctom said:Have to admit, I also struggle with the notion that as many as 6,500 have died directly as a result of the conditions.Not to suggest everything has been done all above board every step of the way, but that number does seem absurdly high. Is there sufficient evidence of 6,500 people?The way the country was handed the tournament will always wrangle with people, and I’ve always had a feeling in the back of my mind that many will latch onto any negative rumour they can.
The alcohol one is a common one. The suggestion constantly being made that alcohol is completely banned and nobody can have a drink etc. It’s not true. Yes, it’s more regulated than it would be in the West - but it’s something that people have just chosen to believe.
I know there are a lot of people who are refusing to go to this World Cup for moral reasons, which I understand, and I’ve even had a couple of people question my decision for going.If I’m being completely honest and transparent - of course a big driver is the fact that I simply want to go to a World Cup. I’m there to enjoy football, like pretty much everyone else.But if we factor in the controversy/moral aspect of this, I also believe that positive societal change cannot be generated from the outside.Will this World Cup bring about such change? That remains to be seen.Does a World Cup in empty stadiums really make a difference to Qatar? Those who preach to others about not going will still be sat at home watching it on the television helping to generate the major broadcasting revenue (the biggest money maker of all).If I wanted to claim ignorance then I wouldn’t be in this thread willing to debate the issue.
I don’t believe every single thing I read via a Google search, or in the newspapers, or on social media - I’m sure you don’t either.Not suggesting it hasn’t happened. But for a long time now, there are different numbers being thrown about and before you know it everything is taken as gospel. Has it happened to the scale that has been claimed? I don’t know. One source will say one thing and another source will suggest something completely different.Like I stated earlier, there were major political/societal issues surrounding the last 3-4 World Cups before this one and very few people wanted to talk about it. With Qatar being considered an ‘unattractive’ venue in a footballing sense, a lot of people will want to believe absolutely every rumour/statistic that gets put out there.
I don’t agree with your point about change not being possible because people aren’t willing to question the reality. This very topic is pretty much on the lips of anyone who brings up the 2022 World Cup, and has been for years now. It’s not as if everyone is burying their head in the sand and not talking about it.
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Taxi_Lad said:Wheresmeticket? said:Taxi_Lad said:ShootersHillGuru said:SoundAsa£ said:Taxi_Lad said:Lincsaddick said:old thread revisited .. according to today's 'Times' .. 'thousands' of migrant workers have died during the building of the World Cup stadia .. THOUSANDS !! .. even the ancient Roman emperors would have balked at that number .. too late now, BUT as we all know, what a disgrace it was to give this medieval country such a prestigious tournament
were they throwing themselves off like lemmings 🤷🏻♂️2 -
Chris_from_Sidcup said:PragueAddick said:@QatarNapsy
i'm wondering what ordinary fans will find to do when they are out there, other than sit by the hotel pool and drink beer, presumably Heineken, and presumably at an exotic price per bottle. And where will they eat? Like I said, ordinary fans, not well-off types on a hospitality jaunt paid by their companies.
Given a lot of fans will be coming from much colder climates at that time, i'd guess that's probably exactly what they'd want to do. Sunbathe, eat, drink, maybe play a bit of golf.
Also it's a world cup, so if you're going out there during the group stage there will be 3-4 games to watch every day.Still wondering what anyone as weird as us would do in Qatar. My mates are golfers, but they can and do play golf any time. As for sunbathing, good luck with that. Gammon in 5 minutes.0 -
Plenty are gammon before they set off3
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PragueAddick said:Chris_from_Sidcup said:PragueAddick said:@QatarNapsy
i'm wondering what ordinary fans will find to do when they are out there, other than sit by the hotel pool and drink beer, presumably Heineken, and presumably at an exotic price per bottle. And where will they eat? Like I said, ordinary fans, not well-off types on a hospitality jaunt paid by their companies.
Given a lot of fans will be coming from much colder climates at that time, i'd guess that's probably exactly what they'd want to do. Sunbathe, eat, drink, maybe play a bit of golf.
Also it's a world cup, so if you're going out there during the group stage there will be 3-4 games to watch every day.Still wondering what anyone as weird as us would do in Qatar. My mates are golfers, but they can and do play golf any time. As for sunbathing, good luck with that. Gammon in 5 minutes.2 -
Garrymanilow said:cafctom said:Garrymanilow said:cafctom said:Garrymanilow said:cafctom said:Have to admit, I also struggle with the notion that as many as 6,500 have died directly as a result of the conditions.Not to suggest everything has been done all above board every step of the way, but that number does seem absurdly high. Is there sufficient evidence of 6,500 people?The way the country was handed the tournament will always wrangle with people, and I’ve always had a feeling in the back of my mind that many will latch onto any negative rumour they can.
The alcohol one is a common one. The suggestion constantly being made that alcohol is completely banned and nobody can have a drink etc. It’s not true. Yes, it’s more regulated than it would be in the West - but it’s something that people have just chosen to believe.
I know there are a lot of people who are refusing to go to this World Cup for moral reasons, which I understand, and I’ve even had a couple of people question my decision for going.If I’m being completely honest and transparent - of course a big driver is the fact that I simply want to go to a World Cup. I’m there to enjoy football, like pretty much everyone else.But if we factor in the controversy/moral aspect of this, I also believe that positive societal change cannot be generated from the outside.Will this World Cup bring about such change? That remains to be seen.Does a World Cup in empty stadiums really make a difference to Qatar? Those who preach to others about not going will still be sat at home watching it on the television helping to generate the major broadcasting revenue (the biggest money maker of all).If I wanted to claim ignorance then I wouldn’t be in this thread willing to debate the issue.
I don’t believe every single thing I read via a Google search, or in the newspapers, or on social media - I’m sure you don’t either.Not suggesting it hasn’t happened. But for a long time now, there are different numbers being thrown about and before you know it everything is taken as gospel. Has it happened to the scale that has been claimed? I don’t know. One source will say one thing and another source will suggest something completely different.Like I stated earlier, there were major political/societal issues surrounding the last 3-4 World Cups before this one and very few people wanted to talk about it. With Qatar being considered an ‘unattractive’ venue in a footballing sense, a lot of people will want to believe absolutely every rumour/statistic that gets put out there.
I don’t agree with your point about change not being possible because people aren’t willing to question the reality. This very topic is pretty much on the lips of anyone who brings up the 2022 World Cup, and has been for years now. It’s not as if everyone is burying their head in the sand and not talking about it.
I guess I’m just struggling to get my head around a number being that high without there being more concrete evidence for it. It’s just an astronomical, shocking number. And yes, I’m aware that the information that comes out of the country isn’t going to be broadcast all the facts for us.
The evidence you’ve mentioned around embassy numbers isn’t something I was aware of previously, and it’s certainly valid.
I actually saw an interview with one of the main individuals involved in delivering the World Cup ‘project’ for the country and he said the number was 3 people. (And before you say it - I’m not suggesting that is at all accurate either).When I said earlier that I don’t think change can be made from the outside, I think you may have misinterpreted it. That’s not my way of trying to play ignorance to the problems. My point being that people completely boycotting the tournament and not attending the region would likely just lead to zero change.Progress could come from people being there to shine a light on the array of issues at hand, and hopefully promote change. Whether that actually happens or not - we’ll have to see.
I accept that my initial post probably wasn’t getting the point across that I was trying to, and we’ve had to go round the houses on it.0 - Sponsored links:
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6,500 deaths is 6,500 tragedies. I wouldn't work in Qatar.
But lets recognise the data behind the number. 6,500 deaths of migrant workers in total in Qatar in 10 years. Not 6,500 deaths of World Cup "workers" in 10 years.
It includes deaths of any description amongst the 2 million migrant workers there at any one time.
The "3 deaths" claim probably relates to the following:-
"There have been 37 deaths among workers directly linked to construction of World Cup stadiums, of which 34 are classified as “non-work related” by the event’s organising committee".
The headlines would have you believe that 6,500 people have died building stadia.
Would those 6,500 have died had they not been in Qatar? Many would have, more probably wouldn't have.
Not justifying, nor making the conditions of migrant workers in Qatar seem acceptable, but just ensuring their is some understanding of the number.
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/23/revealed-migrant-worker-deaths-qatar-fifa-world-cup-2022
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PragueAddick said:@QatarNapsy
i'm wondering what ordinary fans will find to do when they are out there, other than sit by the hotel pool and drink beer, presumably Heineken, and presumably at an exotic price per bottle. And where will they eat? Like I said, ordinary fans, not well-off types on a hospitality jaunt paid by their companies.1 -
QatarNapsy said:This was today at the golf2
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SporadicAddick said:6,500 deaths is 6,500 tragedies. I wouldn't work in Qatar.
But lets recognise the data behind the number. 6,500 deaths of migrant workers in total in Qatar in 10 years. Not 6,500 deaths of World Cup "workers" in 10 years.
It includes deaths of any description amongst the 2 million migrant workers there at any one time.
The "3 deaths" claim probably relates to the following:-
"There have been 37 deaths among workers directly linked to construction of World Cup stadiums, of which 34 are classified as “non-work related” by the event’s organising committee".
The headlines would have you believe that 6,500 people have died building stadia.
Would those 6,500 have died had they not been in Qatar? Many would have, more probably wouldn't have.
Not justifying, nor making the conditions of migrant workers in Qatar seem acceptable, but just ensuring their is some understanding of the number.
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/23/revealed-migrant-worker-deaths-qatar-fifa-world-cup-2022From that article it's 6,750 from only India, Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka."The total death toll is significantly higher, as these figures do not include deaths from a number of countries which send large numbers of workers to Qatar, including the Philippines and Kenya. Deaths that occurred in the final months of 2020 are also not included."So a conservative estimate of an average of 700 migrant deaths a year in a country of a population of 2million. For comparison there's a graph below of fatal injuries to workers in Great Britain from 1974 to 2021.I could show living conditions of migrant construction workers if anyone wants to go in to the 34 non work related deaths.It's not just Qatar that has this issue, various countries throughout the Middle East do as well.
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Friend Or Defoe said:SporadicAddick said:6,500 deaths is 6,500 tragedies. I wouldn't work in Qatar.
But lets recognise the data behind the number. 6,500 deaths of migrant workers in total in Qatar in 10 years. Not 6,500 deaths of World Cup "workers" in 10 years.
It includes deaths of any description amongst the 2 million migrant workers there at any one time.
The "3 deaths" claim probably relates to the following:-
"There have been 37 deaths among workers directly linked to construction of World Cup stadiums, of which 34 are classified as “non-work related” by the event’s organising committee".
The headlines would have you believe that 6,500 people have died building stadia.
Would those 6,500 have died had they not been in Qatar? Many would have, more probably wouldn't have.
Not justifying, nor making the conditions of migrant workers in Qatar seem acceptable, but just ensuring their is some understanding of the number.
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/23/revealed-migrant-worker-deaths-qatar-fifa-world-cup-2022From that article it's 6,750 from only India, Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka."The total death toll is significantly higher, as these figures do not include deaths from a number of countries which send large numbers of workers to Qatar, including the Philippines and Kenya. Deaths that occurred in the final months of 2020 are also not included."So a conservative estimate of an average of 700 migrant deaths a year in a country of a population of 2million. For comparison there's a graph below of fatal injuries to workers in Great Britain from 1974 to 2021.I could show living conditions of migrant construction workers if anyone wants to go in to the 34 non work related deaths.It's not just Qatar that has this issue, various countries throughout the Middle East do as well.
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Thank you Sporadic.
So it transpires that the 6,750 deaths from 5 countries citizens, that people had assumed was due to the construction of World Cup Stadia, is actually 3 (directly).1 -
Athletico Charlton said:6,500 deaths and rampant slavery. Well done FIFA.
Not saying it’s impossible as I don’t know the facts but it sounds highly unlikely don’t you think?
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SoundAsa£ said:Athletico Charlton said:6,500 deaths and rampant slavery. Well done FIFA.
Not saying it’s impossible as I don’t know the facts but it sounds highly unlikely don’t you think?1 -
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2019/02/reality-check-migrant-workers-rights-with-two-years-to-qatar-2022-world-cup/
Ninety of 105 domestic workers contacted by Amnesty in the course of its research said they regularly worked more than 14 hours per day and 89 regularly worked seven days a week. Half of the women worked more than 18 hours per day, and most had never had a single day off at all. Some also reported not being paid properly, while 40 women described being insulted, slapped or spat at. One woman said she was treated “like a dog”.
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cafctom said:I’m going out there for the World Cup.
The organisation of accommodation is the biggest logistical mess people are dealing with at the moment. I actually went and paid over the odds through an agent to ensure getting accommodation for 10 nights.
Think this will be the last World Cup that is handed to a single country, and especially one as small as Qatar.0 - Sponsored links:
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Covered End said:Thank you Sporadic.
So it transpires that the 6,750 deaths from 5 countries citizens, that people had assumed was due to the construction of World Cup Stadia, is actually 3 (directly).
The best way to get context here is to understand how many migrant deaths were recorded in the 10 years prior to the World Cup being awarded. The difference between the two figures would be the best indication of a range of deaths that can be attributed to this event.2 -
Medieval country with medieval values suddenly having the wealth and toys of the 21st Century thrust upon them. They’re not the only one.3
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If thinking only 3 stadium deaths from 5 countries means things aren't so bad and people watching it from home are some how to blame then so be it. Just don't look too deep in to the 'non-job related deaths'.1 -
QatarNapsy said:cafctom said:I’m going out there for the World Cup.
The organisation of accommodation is the biggest logistical mess people are dealing with at the moment. I actually went and paid over the odds through an agent to ensure getting accommodation for 10 nights.
Think this will be the last World Cup that is handed to a single country, and especially one as small as Qatar.
We’re told it will be in central Doha though.
On reflection it would have been cheaper if I’d just done it the way most others are - which is via the FIFA portal. However, considering the limited amount available I didn’t want to be in a situation where I was paying for match tickets but then unable to get anywhere to stay.1 -
A phrase I despise is ' we are just going to have to hold our noses'. I think we would be better off if any person in power who uses it is not in power.2
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Taxi_Lad said:Wheresmeticket? said:Taxi_Lad said:ShootersHillGuru said:SoundAsa£ said:Taxi_Lad said:Lincsaddick said:old thread revisited .. according to today's 'Times' .. 'thousands' of migrant workers have died during the building of the World Cup stadia .. THOUSANDS !! .. even the ancient Roman emperors would have balked at that number .. too late now, BUT as we all know, what a disgrace it was to give this medieval country such a prestigious tournament
were they throwing themselves off like lemmings 🤷🏻♂️
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What an absolute disgrace FIFA are. The national governing bodies are just as culpable. I hope this World Cup spells the end of FIFA but football is only ever about making money. I won’t be watching it.5
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I'd sooner work than make an effort to watch the WC this time out. A corruption-drenched tournament in a medieval country that persecutes the poor and the 'different', hosting a sport played by rich, whiny people. They should put that on the poster! The latest Amnesty stuff is a damning indictment that every sports journalist should be reporting to justify their work trip (Barry Glendenning compared covering the tournament to journalists visiting war zones, which is the pinnacle of sports journalist bullshit - he'll be holed up in a press room eating free food and watching any match he wants, occassionally saying 'Qatar bad but football good' as lazily as humanly possible).
Further, after watching the Germany match in a pub last summer, I can honestly say I don't want any of those England fans to experience any success. They don't deserve it.
When I was a lad I remember counting how many World Cups I hoped to be alive for. I had no clue that I would eventually not care.6 -
PrincessFiona said:Taxi_Lad said:Wheresmeticket? said:Taxi_Lad said:ShootersHillGuru said:SoundAsa£ said:Taxi_Lad said:Lincsaddick said:old thread revisited .. according to today's 'Times' .. 'thousands' of migrant workers have died during the building of the World Cup stadia .. THOUSANDS !! .. even the ancient Roman emperors would have balked at that number .. too late now, BUT as we all know, what a disgrace it was to give this medieval country such a prestigious tournament
were they throwing themselves off like lemmings 🤷🏻♂️
So if anything 6,500 is a low figure.0