Everything is all so centrered around the spin and being SEEN to do the right thing, and very little to do with individual choice and views any more.
With poppies as an example, a directive will go around the BBC stating when poppies should be worn from. From that point onwards, it will be someone on a set someones job to ensure that everyone within 100yds of a camera is wearing a poppy at all times. Anyone not wearing a poppy will be portrayed elsewhere as evil, even if it is by accident.
Since Remembrance began, we have never worn a poppy on our national shirt. Now it is the biggest outrage ever.
The poppy has become to some more important as a fashion statement than the true meaning behind the poppy. The true meaning is your own individual thoughts, sadness and gratitude to those who lost their lives so people with nothing better to do can argue with others over the internet.
I couldn't give a Shit about having the poppy on a football shirt. To me it is a hollow, enforced gesture all about being seen to do the right thing. People wear poppies at my work yet won't even be arsed to finish their phonecall come the point of remembrance. To many ignorant people nowadays.
All I care about is being alone with my thoughts in front of a memorial I go to every year at the point at remembrance. The more people who do the same, then great. But remembrance should be all about what one feels, not some enforced gesture.
80k spectators wearing poppies, falling silent in tribute is the true meaning of remembrance, not a badge pressed onto a cheap bit of cloth made in China.
We will see what the fa are made of , wear the poppies with pride and pay the fine then compare it against the peanuts they fine the racist chanting in the stadiums like the Spanish debacle
Spot on.
Yeah, great thinking. I bet you'd be saying the exact same thing if the nutters in Iran put some Pro-Hezbollah shite on their shirts and then cocked a snook at whatever fine FIFA threw at them.
The rules are there for a reason.
Don't give a shit what they put on their shirts - wouldn't bother me in the slightest.
But then I'm "thick" for having my own personal views, clearly.
Not thick, just completely mistaken if you think that allowing countries to put overtly political statements on their shirts would not lead to massive political problems and the likely breakdown of international football in certain 'hot spots' around the world.
At the moment Iran can play Israel because, under FIFA regulations, the match is completely apolitical. How long do you reckon that would last if the Iranians came out to play Israel and under orders from Ahmadinejad all wore "Death to Israel" logos on their shirts?
Everything is all so centrered around the spin and being SEEN to do the right thing, and very little to do with individual choice and views any more.
With poppies as an example, a directive will go around the BBC stating when poppies should be worn from. From that point onwards, it will be someone on a set someones job to ensure that everyone within 100yds of a camera is wearing a poppy at all times. Anyone not wearing a poppy will be portrayed elsewhere as evil, even if it is by accident.
Since Remembrance began, we have never worn a poppy on our national shirt. Now it is the biggest outrage ever.
The poppy has become to some more important as a fashion statement than the true meaning behind the poppy. The true meaning is your own individual thoughts, sadness and gratitude to those who lost their lives so people with nothing better to do can argue with others over the internet.
I couldn't give a Shit about having the poppy on a football shirt. To me it is a hollow, enforced gesture all about being seen to do the right thing. People wear poppies at my work yet won't even be arsed to finish their phonecall come the point of remembrance. To many ignorant people nowadays.
All I care about is being alone with my thoughts in front of a memorial I go to every year at the point at remembrance. The more people who do the same, then great. But remembrance should be all about what one feels, not some enforced gesture.
80k spectators wearing poppies, falling silent in tribute is the true meaning of remembrance, not a badge pressed onto a cheap bit of cloth made in China.
If there was a "post of the week" prize, I do believe you'd have just won it.
How is it that someone who thinks that having a poppy on a shirt is a harmless enough thing is labelled thick, mistaken and as throwing their toys out of the pram.
Well i'm not going to watch it , i feel that strongly about it , i know people will say i'm throwing me toys out of the pram , so i thought i'd get in first , i've read a lot of the above views , and i know rules are rules , but this is ridiculous, i can't believe how cowardly the Fa are.
I'm going to watch it - am in my firms corporate box.
Champagne on arrival, £90 a head buffet, gourmet pies and a cheese board at half time, and free vino/beer throughout.
Only problem is that I'll have to sit and watch England. But at least it wont be like going to a real game, so I reckon I'll be able to suspend reality for a bit.
Yes, I'm mistaken. That's it. Thanks for clearing that up for me Sepp.
That's OK, always glad to help people when they are in need of guidance.
Marje Proops? Not heard that name for years. I always found her problem page very staid compared to the far raunchier Dear Deidre in The Sun and the one in the NOTW which was borderline soft-porn.
We will see what the fa are made of , wear the poppies with pride and pay the fine then compare it against the peanuts they fine the racist chanting in the stadiums like the Spanish debacle
Spot on.
Yeah, great thinking. I bet you'd be saying the exact same thing if the nutters in Iran put some Pro-Hezbollah shite on their shirts and then cocked a snook at whatever fine FIFA threw at them.
The rules are there for a reason.
As various people on Radio 5 have just pointed out, the wearing of poppies breaks none of FIFA's rules. So whatever rules you are talking about, they are irrelevant. Comparing a poppy to Pro Hezbullah emblem is a bit extreme dont you think?
Bang on the money Lincs. Personally I think it would be nice to see the poppy displayed however I can understand that certain countries/religious groups could be slightly upset by it. The point is to remember the dead and what they died for, is not displaying it going to make a difference to that? No it won't. I get the impression most want to use it as an excuse to have a pop at Sepp and his gang.
Name any group county religious group who could possibly IN ANY WAY be offended by it. Please.
Everything is all so centrered around the spin and being SEEN to do the right thing, and very little to do with individual choice and views any more.
With poppies as an example, a directive will go around the BBC stating when poppies should be worn from. From that point onwards, it will be someone on a set someones job to ensure that everyone within 100yds of a camera is wearing a poppy at all times. Anyone not wearing a poppy will be portrayed elsewhere as evil, even if it is by accident.
Since Remembrance began, we have never worn a poppy on our national shirt. Now it is the biggest outrage ever.
The poppy has become to some more important as a fashion statement than the true meaning behind the poppy. The true meaning is your own individual thoughts, sadness and gratitude to those who lost their lives so people with nothing better to do can argue with others over the internet.
I couldn't give a Shit about having the poppy on a football shirt. To me it is a hollow, enforced gesture all about being seen to do the right thing. People wear poppies at my work yet won't even be arsed to finish their phonecall come the point of remembrance. To many ignorant people nowadays.
All I care about is being alone with my thoughts in front of a memorial I go to every year at the point at remembrance. The more people who do the same, then great. But remembrance should be all about what one feels, not some enforced gesture.
80k spectators wearing poppies, falling silent in tribute is the true meaning of remembrance, not a badge pressed onto a cheap bit of cloth made in China.
There is room for the national rememberance as well as the personal.
It does no harm for people on TV to wear their poppies - enforced or not - it still reminds those watching of the 11 days preceeding a national event.
I agree the shirt issue is being blown out of proportion, but if the English and Welsh FA want them, where is the harm is agreeing to their wishes.? You dont have to give it a cynical slant. I'm sorry you see it as a hollow gesture, but thats just one point of view. Maybe the FA want it for a reason that is better than the one you apply to it. No one is saying its the biggest outrage ever are they? Who has been called evil (and by whom?) for not wearing one?
We will see what the fa are made of , wear the poppies with pride and pay the fine then compare it against the peanuts they fine the racist chanting in the stadiums like the Spanish debacle
Spot on.
Yeah, great thinking. I bet you'd be saying the exact same thing if the nutters in Iran put some Pro-Hezbollah shite on their shirts and then cocked a snook at whatever fine FIFA threw at them.
The rules are there for a reason.
As various people on Radio 5 have just pointed out, the wearing of poppies breaks none of FIFA's rules. So whatever rules you are talking about, they are irrelevant. Comparing a poppy to Pro Hezbullah emblem is a bit extreme dont you think?
Thanks for proving my point!
YOU don't think the Poppy is a political symbol because YOU don't see it that way, you see it as a symbol of remembrance and respect to the British war dead. As I do.
However, other people - rightly or wrongly - DON'T see it that way and see the Poppy as a symbol of the British Army and that is something they react strongly against, Irish Republicans for example.
Let's say for example that in 20 years that Ireland has a Sinn Fein government, let's say that England want to wear their Poppies and Ireland say, "OK, you wear the Poppies, we'll wear these pictures of the Hunger Strikers." See where this is headed?
Similarly, YOU see Hezbollah as bunch of murderous Islamic thugs (and I would agree with you) but for millions of Arabs Hezbollah are a sign of heroic resistance against the Israeli occupation of Palestine.
It is precisely because people see political symbols in different ways that FIFA outlaws them on team shirts etc because it stops an international game being hijacked by political interests.
If Armenia were to wear an Armenian holocaust memorial on their shirt Turkey would be none too pleased as would Japan if China did the same regarding nanxing (sp?).
I also think its harsh on the FA to call them spineless over the issue. The FA do excellent work with our war wounded in getting them involved in sports from amateur to international and Olympic levels.
The poppy is not a political symbol now but if we enforce it upon people it will be become politicised. It undermines the whole objective of getting the poppy on the England shirt.
My personal fear over this is that if England were to adopt the poppy we would gain persons donating but would lose people who truly do try to comprehend the sacrifice laid down by our dead and their families. The poppy shouldn't be a symbol of financial giving but of remembrance and should be personal.
Can anyone tell me... was the poppy originally a symbol of remembrance adopted by the RBL or visaversa?
I've put together the following timeline form information on the internet. I've not put links but it's easy enough to find either from Google or from The British Legion website. It seems to me that the poppy was used first as a symbol of remembrance and then as a fundraiser, initially for the YMCA (who say's it's not religious?). However it's a close call, perhaps just a couple of hours. And the first poppy sales were, in fact, two days before the war ended.
1915: Canadian doctor John McRae writes his poem In Flanders Fields from which we take our association with the poppy.
9 November 1918: Moina Belle Michael, a delegate at a YMCA Conference in New York reads McRae's Poem and sees some illustrations of Flanders Field Poppies in Ladies Home Journal. As a result she, “pledged to KEEP THE FAITH and always to wear a red poppy of Flanders Fields as a sign of remembrance and the emblem of ‘keeping the faith with all who died’”. Moina writes a poem in response to McRae's titled, We Shall Keep The Faith. On this day others saw her poppies and wanted some for themselves. She searched New York until she found a shop (Wanamaker's) that sold her 25 silk poppies. These were sold to people at the YMCA conference that day.
11 November 1918: WWI ends.
6 February 1919: The Cavalry Baptist Church in New York becomes the second organisation to adopt the poppy.
October 1920: The American and French Children's League, based in France, becomes the first organisation outside the US to adopt the poppy.
Autumn 1921: Poppy adopted by Earl Haig's British Legion Appeal Fund. “Proceeds from the sale of artificial French-made poppies were given to ex-servicemen in need of welfare and financial support”.
11th November 1921: First “Poppy Day” in the UK.
1922: The Poppy Factory was established in the Old Kent Road where disabled ex-serviceman and women made poppies to sell.
1933: Poppy Factory moved to Richmond as it needed bigger premises to cope with demand.
June 1911: "The Poppy Factory announced its plans to help 500 wounded, injured or sick ex-Service men and women into mainstream employment over the next 5 years".
Bang on the money Lincs. Personally I think it would be nice to see the poppy displayed however I can understand that certain countries/religious groups could be slightly upset by it. The point is to remember the dead and what they died for, is not displaying it going to make a difference to that? No it won't. I get the impression most want to use it as an excuse to have a pop at Sepp and his gang.
Name any group county religious group who could possibly IN ANY WAY be offended by it. Please.
As mentioned before some Irish people. You're welcome.
Bang on the money Lincs. Personally I think it would be nice to see the poppy displayed however I can understand that certain countries/religious groups could be slightly upset by it. The point is to remember the dead and what they died for, is not displaying it going to make a difference to that? No it won't. I get the impression most want to use it as an excuse to have a pop at Sepp and his gang.
Name any group county religious group who could possibly IN ANY WAY be offended by it. Please.
As mentioned before some Irish people. You're welcome.
They would be offended that we remember their fallen soldiers?
The FIFA angle is purely centred around them not wanting to be seen to be backing down. Like the teacher who knows he is wrong and the naughty pupil he hates is right. He's still not going to play ball.
As Goonerhater suggests, if individual players feel strongly enough, offer them black armbands with a poppy logo on. No breaking of FIFAs precious rulebook, yet successfully getting across the message.
If the FA really feel as strongly as they suggest, then they always could have handed over all the pitchside advertising to the poppy, the royal British legion, help for heroes etc and forfeited their advertising revenue for this game. Me thinks they would suddenly become less outraged if that was put to them.
The FIFA angle is purely centred around them not wanting to be seen to be backing down. Like the teacher who knows he is wrong and the naughty pupil he hates is right. He's still not going to play ball.
As Goonerhater suggests, if individual players feel strongly enough, offer them black armbands with a poppy logo on. No breaking of FIFAs precious rulebook, yet successfully getting across the message.
If the FA really feel as strongly as they suggest, then they always could have handed over all the pitchside advertising to the poppy, the royal British legion, help for heroes etc and forfeited their advertising revenue for this game. Me thinks they would suddenly become less outraged if that was put to them.
A true cynic and a man after my own heart, I doff my cap Sir.
Maybe whilst "Call Me Dave" is so utterly outraged at FIFA's position on the Poppy he could look at increasing the scandalously low medical and financial benefits available to our modern day soldiers when they return from Afghanistan/Iraq. Or even look at whether surviving WWII Vets will survive without their winter heating allowance.
I admit, my hatred for the years of corruption, double standards and lies at FIFA does cloud my opinion. But the fact remains, despite some on here trying to shout others down, the Poppy is not a religious, political or commercial symbol. If some misguided loonies wish to see it us such, their problem - why should a tiny minority of fools dictate to everyone else? As Ormiston said "Rightly or wrongly",well, it's wrongly and their problem, not mine.
Maybe whilst "Call Me Dave" is so utterly outraged at FIFA's position on the Poppy he could look at increasing the scandalously low medical and financial benefits available to our modern day soldiers when they return from Afghanistan/Iraq. Or even look at whether surviving WWII Vets will survive without their winter heating allowance.
Do you reckon he will? No, me neither.
Fantastic point. In an idea world we wouldn't need a British Legion.
Comments
Everything is all so centrered around the spin and being SEEN to do the right thing, and very little to do with individual choice and views any more.
With poppies as an example, a directive will go around the BBC stating when poppies should be worn from. From that point onwards, it will be someone on a set someones job to ensure that everyone within 100yds of a camera is wearing a poppy at all times. Anyone not wearing a poppy will be portrayed elsewhere as evil, even if it is by accident.
Since Remembrance began, we have never worn a poppy on our national shirt. Now it is the biggest outrage ever.
The poppy has become to some more important as a fashion statement than the true meaning behind the poppy. The true meaning is your own individual thoughts, sadness and gratitude to those who lost their lives so people with nothing better to do can argue with others over the internet.
I couldn't give a Shit about having the poppy on a football shirt. To me it is a hollow, enforced gesture all about being seen to do the right thing. People wear poppies at my work yet won't even be arsed to finish their phonecall come the point of remembrance. To many ignorant people nowadays.
All I care about is being alone with my thoughts in front of a memorial I go to every year at the point at remembrance. The more people who do the same, then great. But remembrance should be all about what one feels, not some enforced gesture.
80k spectators wearing poppies, falling silent in tribute is the true meaning of remembrance, not a badge pressed onto a cheap bit of cloth made in China.
Not thick, just completely mistaken if you think that allowing countries to put overtly political statements on their shirts would not lead to massive political problems and the likely breakdown of international football in certain 'hot spots' around the world.
At the moment Iran can play Israel because, under FIFA regulations, the match is completely apolitical. How long do you reckon that would last if the Iranians came out to play Israel and under orders from Ahmadinejad all wore "Death to Israel" logos on their shirts?
That's OK, always glad to help people when they are in need of guidance.
Marje Proops? Not heard that name for years. I always found her problem page very staid compared to the far raunchier Dear Deidre in The Sun and the one in the NOTW which was borderline soft-porn.
It does no harm for people on TV to wear their poppies - enforced or not - it still reminds those watching of the 11 days preceeding a national event.
I agree the shirt issue is being blown out of proportion, but if the English and Welsh FA want them, where is the harm is agreeing to their wishes.? You dont have to give it a cynical slant. I'm sorry you see it as a hollow gesture, but thats just one point of view. Maybe the FA want it for a reason that is better than the one you apply to it.
No one is saying its the biggest outrage ever are they?
Who has been called evil (and by whom?) for not wearing one?
Thanks for proving my point!
YOU don't think the Poppy is a political symbol because YOU don't see it that way, you see it as a symbol of remembrance and respect to the British war dead. As I do.
However, other people - rightly or wrongly - DON'T see it that way and see the Poppy as a symbol of the British Army and that is something they react strongly against, Irish Republicans for example.
Let's say for example that in 20 years that Ireland has a Sinn Fein government, let's say that England want to wear their Poppies and Ireland say, "OK, you wear the Poppies, we'll wear these pictures of the Hunger Strikers." See where this is headed?
Similarly, YOU see Hezbollah as bunch of murderous Islamic thugs (and I would agree with you) but for millions of Arabs Hezbollah are a sign of heroic resistance against the Israeli occupation of Palestine.
It is precisely because people see political symbols in different ways that FIFA outlaws them on team shirts etc because it stops an international game being hijacked by political interests.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tad9b1yOsg&feature=player_detailpage
get the fa do do this
If Armenia were to wear an Armenian holocaust memorial on their shirt Turkey would be none too pleased as would Japan if China did the same regarding nanxing (sp?).
I also think its harsh on the FA to call them spineless over the issue. The FA do excellent work with our war wounded in getting them involved in sports from amateur to international and Olympic levels.
The poppy is not a political symbol now but if we enforce it upon people it will be become politicised. It undermines the whole objective of getting the poppy on the England shirt.
My personal fear over this is that if England were to adopt the poppy we would gain persons donating but would lose people who truly do try to comprehend the sacrifice laid down by our dead and their families. The poppy shouldn't be a symbol of financial giving but of remembrance and should be personal.
Can anyone tell me... was the poppy originally a symbol of remembrance adopted by the RBL or visaversa?
11 November 1918: WWI ends.
6 February 1919: The Cavalry Baptist Church in New York becomes the second organisation to adopt the poppy.
October 1920: The American and French Children's League, based in France, becomes the first organisation outside the US to adopt the poppy.
Autumn 1921: Poppy adopted by Earl Haig's British Legion Appeal Fund. “Proceeds from the sale of artificial French-made poppies were given to ex-servicemen in need of welfare and financial support”.
11th November 1921: First “Poppy Day” in the UK.
1922: The Poppy Factory was established in the Old Kent Road where disabled ex-serviceman and women made poppies to sell.
1933: Poppy Factory moved to Richmond as it needed bigger premises to cope with demand.
Odd
plus Threadkiller is spot on too
As Goonerhater suggests, if individual players feel strongly enough, offer them black armbands with a poppy logo on. No breaking of FIFAs precious rulebook, yet successfully getting across the message.
If the FA really feel as strongly as they suggest, then they always could have handed over all the pitchside advertising to the poppy, the royal British legion, help for heroes etc and forfeited their advertising revenue for this game. Me thinks they would suddenly become less outraged if that was put to them.
A true cynic and a man after my own heart, I doff my cap Sir.
Maybe whilst "Call Me Dave" is so utterly outraged at FIFA's position on the Poppy he could look at increasing the scandalously low medical and financial benefits available to our modern day soldiers when they return from Afghanistan/Iraq. Or even look at whether surviving WWII Vets will survive without their winter heating allowance.
Do you reckon he will? No, me neither.