RIP to the victims of crimes and terrorism throughout the world, it goes without saying that. By old school, I mean the likes of Biggs would not have stabbed or shot someone in the street for a fiver like today.
100% RIP to Jack Mills.
Sorry if there was any offence caused, but "yay" and "rot in hell"? Come on
Sorry but I have to come back again.
Poor Jack Mills was assaulted for a lot more money than a fiver and I don't think anyone would attempt an RIP thread for someone who acted in the way you describe.
Like it or not, kids from certain areas and backgrounds look up to a certain type of criminal of a certain time. Boys from me old mans generation might've liked the outlaws of the wild west and me and my pals would look at the likes of Biggs and the Krays for whatever reason. Kids these days look up to today's criminals and this is why you'll see 3 seperate stories on BBC London this morning about stabbings involving 17-18 year old lads.
RIP Ronnie Biggs
Old School!
The problem is you have just described what is wrong with the world.
We can't really be critical of radical Islam and the current youth gang culture and hold up people like Biggs as someone to look up to and aspire to be like.
The Ronnie Biggs story was really quite extraordinary when you look back on it.
I mean, how does one of the most wanted criminals in the country escape from jail (was it the Scrubs?) and make his way all the way to Oz where he lives in suburbia for a couple of years before getting rumbled and heading off to Brazil? Its an amazing story.
Of course, you have to feel massive sympathy for Jack Mills and his family but the GTR will always be one of the most notorious crimes of the 20th century and a fascinating tale of human greed and - in the end - frailty.
All those years in Brazil and all Biggs ever really wanted to do was to come back to London - not to prison obviously - and live the simple life he once had, it certainly makes you think.
Yeah, the simple life: scrounging benefits, accommodation and free hospital treatment off people that actually paid some taxes on their earnings. Utter scum.
Do try and get a grip.
The simple point is - and you will discover it if you read about it - that Biggs was part of the greatest robbery of modern times but when in Brazil all he really wanted - as verified by plenty of people - was to be back in London among friends and family and the places he knew.
Nobody detests the glorification of criminals more than I do but the point is simple, that being that even with plenty of money (although it eventually ran out) that all Biggs really wanted was to come home to what he knew and loved.
The truth is that people often dream of riches, gained legally or otherwise, but what makes us truly happy is not money or what it brings but the simple, humble pleasures of home.
Ronnie and Reggie were lovely fellas too. Their mum Violet could out-drink and out-fight any man. You could leave your doors open in those days without fear of being robbed....
All this misty eyed romanticism about the Krays, Biggs etc is complete and utter bollox. Robbing, murderous scum.
The Ronnie Biggs story was really quite extraordinary when you look back on it.
I mean, how does one of the most wanted criminals in the country escape from jail (was it the Scrubs?) and make his way all the way to Oz where he lives in suburbia for a couple of years before getting rumbled and heading off to Brazil? Its an amazing story.
Of course, you have to feel massive sympathy for Jack Mills and his family but the GTR will always be one of the most notorious crimes of the 20th century and a fascinating tale of human greed and - in the end - frailty.
All those years in Brazil and all Biggs ever really wanted to do was to come back to London - not to prison obviously - and live the simple life he once had, it certainly makes you think.
Yeah, the simple life: scrounging benefits, accommodation and free hospital treatment off people that actually paid some taxes on their earnings. Utter scum.
Do try and get a grip.
The simple point is - and you will discover it if you read about it - that Biggs was part of the greatest robbery of modern times but when in Brazil all he really wanted - as verified by plenty of people - was to be back in London among friends and family and the places he knew.
Nobody detests the glorification of criminals more than I do but the point is simple, that being that even with plenty of money (although it eventually ran out) that all Biggs really wanted was to come home to what he knew and loved.
If he'd stayed in prison and served his time, he could have done.
The Ronnie Biggs story was really quite extraordinary when you look back on it.
I mean, how does one of the most wanted criminals in the country escape from jail (was it the Scrubs?) and make his way all the way to Oz where he lives in suburbia for a couple of years before getting rumbled and heading off to Brazil? Its an amazing story.
Of course, you have to feel massive sympathy for Jack Mills and his family but the GTR will always be one of the most notorious crimes of the 20th century and a fascinating tale of human greed and - in the end - frailty.
All those years in Brazil and all Biggs ever really wanted to do was to come back to London - not to prison obviously - and live the simple life he once had, it certainly makes you think.
Yeah, the simple life: scrounging benefits, accommodation and free hospital treatment off people that actually paid some taxes on their earnings. Utter scum.
Do try and get a grip.
The simple point is - and you will discover it if you read about it - that Biggs was part of the greatest robbery of modern times but when in Brazil all he really wanted - as verified by plenty of people - was to be back in London among friends and family and the places he knew.
Nobody detests the glorification of criminals more than I do but the point is simple, that being that even with plenty of money (although it eventually ran out) that all Biggs really wanted was to come home to what he knew and loved.
The truth is that people often dream of riches, gained legally or otherwise, but what makes us truly happy is not money or what it brings but the simple, humble pleasures of home.
It's his own fault though isn't it? If he'd just served his 15 month prison sentence then he would have been enjoying London. No one sent him to Brazil against his will. And he knew there was a risk of prison when he willingly robbed a train.
Coincided with Great Train Robbery programme on BBC today and tomorrow. Tonights episode is the robbers story, tomorrows is the police investigation. I'm interested to see more on the police investigation side as it's never really mentioned, only the robbery.
so you are saying the bbc killed him to boost ratings?
Maybe, maybe not.....
going by this thread, it would be a popular use of licence fee's if they did have him killed…..
The Ronnie Biggs story was really quite extraordinary when you look back on it.
I mean, how does one of the most wanted criminals in the country escape from jail (was it the Scrubs?) and make his way all the way to Oz where he lives in suburbia for a couple of years before getting rumbled and heading off to Brazil? Its an amazing story.
Of course, you have to feel massive sympathy for Jack Mills and his family but the GTR will always be one of the most notorious crimes of the 20th century and a fascinating tale of human greed and - in the end - frailty.
All those years in Brazil and all Biggs ever really wanted to do was to come back to London - not to prison obviously - and live the simple life he once had, it certainly makes you think.
Yeah, the simple life: scrounging benefits, accommodation and free hospital treatment off people that actually paid some taxes on their earnings. Utter scum.
Do try and get a grip.
The simple point is - and you will discover it if you read about it - that Biggs was part of the greatest robbery of modern times but when in Brazil all he really wanted - as verified by plenty of people - was to be back in London among friends and family and the places he knew.
Nobody detests the glorification of criminals more than I do but the point is simple, that being that even with plenty of money (although it eventually ran out) that all Biggs really wanted was to come home to what he knew and loved.
The truth is that people often dream of riches, gained legally or otherwise, but what makes us truly happy is not money or what it brings but the simple, humble pleasures of home.
It's his own fault though isn't it? If he'd just served his 15 month prison sentence then he would have been enjoying London. No one sent him to Brazil against his will. And he knew there was a risk of prison when he willingly robbed a train.
Yes, I think that is generally understood.
The point - if people would take off their Daily Mail hats even momentarily - is that Biggs thought that money and exotic locations would bring happiness - but they did not because true happiness is about much more than that.
By the way, for The Sun readers among us - and I know we have plenty here - it is probably worth remembering that your august organ was a big supporter of him coming back to the UK on 'medical grounds' - they even paid for the chartered flight to bring him back to get an exclusive.
The Ronnie Biggs story was really quite extraordinary when you look back on it.
I mean, how does one of the most wanted criminals in the country escape from jail (was it the Scrubs?) and make his way all the way to Oz where he lives in suburbia for a couple of years before getting rumbled and heading off to Brazil? Its an amazing story.
Of course, you have to feel massive sympathy for Jack Mills and his family but the GTR will always be one of the most notorious crimes of the 20th century and a fascinating tale of human greed and - in the end - frailty.
All those years in Brazil and all Biggs ever really wanted to do was to come back to London - not to prison obviously - and live the simple life he once had, it certainly makes you think.
Yeah, the simple life: scrounging benefits, accommodation and free hospital treatment off people that actually paid some taxes on their earnings. Utter scum.
Do try and get a grip.
The simple point is - and you will discover it if you read about it - that Biggs was part of the greatest robbery of modern times but when in Brazil all he really wanted - as verified by plenty of people - was to be back in London among friends and family and the places he knew.
Nobody detests the glorification of criminals more than I do but the point is simple, that being that even with plenty of money (although it eventually ran out) that all Biggs really wanted was to come home to what he knew and loved.
The truth is that people often dream of riches, gained legally or otherwise, but what makes us truly happy is not money or what it brings but the simple, humble pleasures of home.
It's his own fault though isn't it? If he'd just served his 15 month prison sentence then he would have been enjoying London. No one sent him to Brazil against his will. And he knew there was a risk of prison when he willingly robbed a train.
By the way, Biggs got 30 YEARS - not 15 months for his part in the GTR.
He would hardly do a bunk if he got 15 months, would he?
The Ronnie Biggs story was really quite extraordinary when you look back on it.
I mean, how does one of the most wanted criminals in the country escape from jail (was it the Scrubs?) and make his way all the way to Oz where he lives in suburbia for a couple of years before getting rumbled and heading off to Brazil? Its an amazing story.
Of course, you have to feel massive sympathy for Jack Mills and his family but the GTR will always be one of the most notorious crimes of the 20th century and a fascinating tale of human greed and - in the end - frailty.
All those years in Brazil and all Biggs ever really wanted to do was to come back to London - not to prison obviously - and live the simple life he once had, it certainly makes you think.
Yeah, the simple life: scrounging benefits, accommodation and free hospital treatment off people that actually paid some taxes on their earnings. Utter scum.
Do try and get a grip.
The simple point is - and you will discover it if you read about it - that Biggs was part of the greatest robbery of modern times but when in Brazil all he really wanted - as verified by plenty of people - was to be back in London among friends and family and the places he knew.
Nobody detests the glorification of criminals more than I do but the point is simple, that being that even with plenty of money (although it eventually ran out) that all Biggs really wanted was to come home to what he knew and loved.
The truth is that people often dream of riches, gained legally or otherwise, but what makes us truly happy is not money or what it brings but the simple, humble pleasures of home.
It's his own fault though isn't it? If he'd just served his 15 month prison sentence then he would have been enjoying London. No one sent him to Brazil against his will. And he knew there was a risk of prison when he willingly robbed a train.
By the way, Biggs got 30 YEARS - not 15 months for his part in the GTR.
He would hardly do a bunk if he got 15 months, would he?
I have to say I thought 15 months was a little light. I guess with good behavior he might have got out in 15 years - if he was willing to give the money back.
I do find these characters fascinating. I have read a lot about the Krays as my Uncle used to talk about them as he lived with a woman that was 'apparently' related to them (but I believe that three quarters of London and half of the country have made that claim in the past). The stories are interesting but nothing from anything that I've read has made me think they were the sort of people I would ever want to be friends with.
I will go out of my way to watch the programs on the BBC though, I don't respect the robbers, but the story about such a big heist is , in my view, well worth seeing. It also gives me a small insight into the times that my parents enjoyed - my dad was not a criminal, but obviously used to drink in pubs etc. in the 60s.
The Ronnie Biggs story was really quite extraordinary when you look back on it.
I mean, how does one of the most wanted criminals in the country escape from jail (was it the Scrubs?) and make his way all the way to Oz where he lives in suburbia for a couple of years before getting rumbled and heading off to Brazil? Its an amazing story.
Of course, you have to feel massive sympathy for Jack Mills and his family but the GTR will always be one of the most notorious crimes of the 20th century and a fascinating tale of human greed and - in the end - frailty.
All those years in Brazil and all Biggs ever really wanted to do was to come back to London - not to prison obviously - and live the simple life he once had, it certainly makes you think.
Yeah, the simple life: scrounging benefits, accommodation and free hospital treatment off people that actually paid some taxes on their earnings. Utter scum.
Do try and get a grip.
The simple point is - and you will discover it if you read about it - that Biggs was part of the greatest robbery of modern times but when in Brazil all he really wanted - as verified by plenty of people - was to be back in London among friends and family and the places he knew.
Nobody detests the glorification of criminals more than I do but the point is simple, that being that even with plenty of money (although it eventually ran out) that all Biggs really wanted was to come home to what he knew and loved.
The truth is that people often dream of riches, gained legally or otherwise, but what makes us truly happy is not money or what it brings but the simple, humble pleasures of home.
It's his own fault though isn't it? If he'd just served his 15 month prison sentence then he would have been enjoying London. No one sent him to Brazil against his will. And he knew there was a risk of prison when he willingly robbed a train.
Yes, I think that is generally understood.
The point - if people would take off their Daily Mail hats even momentarily - is that Biggs thought that money and exotic locations would bring happiness - but they did not because true happiness is about much more than that.
By the way, for The Sun readers among us - and I know we have plenty here - it is probably worth remembering that your august organ was a big supporter of him coming back to the UK on 'medical grounds' - they even paid for the chartered flight to bring him back to get an exclusive.
Ormiston I agree with a lot of what you say.My problem was making this an RIP thread and the fact that the Biggs made money out of the GTR. Normally I would stay out of a RIP if I had nothing positive to say,I even did not say anything critical about Thatcher in her thread because it was not the right place to do it.
I just feel that the glorification of the GTR as 'old school' is wrong when 2 innocent men were held in the way that they were which later contributed to their deaths.Violence leads to violence and a lot of our social problems now have been magnified and got worse from that era stemming from the traditional 'old school' gangster leading to the modern gangsta behaviours.Yet some people seem to separate the two.
The world would be a very Boring place without these people.
Jack Mills suffered which is wrong but there is something to admire about the ambition and audacity of the great train robbers even if you have to admire in silence.
The Ronnie Biggs story was really quite extraordinary when you look back on it.
I mean, how does one of the most wanted criminals in the country escape from jail (was it the Scrubs?) and make his way all the way to Oz where he lives in suburbia for a couple of years before getting rumbled and heading off to Brazil? Its an amazing story.
Of course, you have to feel massive sympathy for Jack Mills and his family but the GTR will always be one of the most notorious crimes of the 20th century and a fascinating tale of human greed and - in the end - frailty.
All those years in Brazil and all Biggs ever really wanted to do was to come back to London - not to prison obviously - and live the simple life he once had, it certainly makes you think.
Yeah, the simple life: scrounging benefits, accommodation and free hospital treatment off people that actually paid some taxes on their earnings. Utter scum.
Do try and get a grip.
The simple point is - and you will discover it if you read about it - that Biggs was part of the greatest robbery of modern times but when in Brazil all he really wanted - as verified by plenty of people - was to be back in London among friends and family and the places he knew.
Nobody detests the glorification of criminals more than I do but the point is simple, that being that even with plenty of money (although it eventually ran out) that all Biggs really wanted was to come home to what he knew and loved.
The truth is that people often dream of riches, gained legally or otherwise, but what makes us truly happy is not money or what it brings but the simple, humble pleasures of home.
That might have been what he wanted - but it wouldn't have been what he achieved. Biggs was a petty criminal who "struck lucky" in knowing someone who wanted grunts for a big job. Without the infamous robbery, he would have spent a very simple life indeed most of it in gaol. Home would not have been something he would have been too familiar with.
BTW, one little known development that came out of the robbery was that, henceforth, the Bank of England punched holes through the serial numbers and Chief Cashier's signature on dirty old notes being transported for destruction prior to them being moved in large numbers. So, even if they had been nicked they would have been worthless.
He was an old school London villain. According to this mornings R5Live, the man who coshed Driver Mills bribed the police and was never arrested for his part in the robbery. Shades of 'Law and Order'. The robbery took place in an era where Christine Keeler was shagging members of the British cabinet at the same time as she was being shagged by a Russian spy. Stephen Ward, Keeler's 'mentor', was (allegedly) murdered by MI5 to prevent too many secrets of Keeler and Rice Davies's affairs being revealed to the world at large and causing more embarrassment to the government headed by the ridiculous Harold MacMillan, the Grouse Shooter General. What has this to do with Biggs?: MI5 have never been investigated over Ward's death, Biggs and others were sentenced to 30 years in prison for their parts in the GTR. Biggs was present at the 'coshing', it was not he who coshed Mills. As stated above, the 'cosher' allegedly totally escaped justice due to corruption in high places. The GTR livened up a very dull era during which Britain started to undergo great change, the Beatles, Harold Wilson, all that 60's stuff. I recall people being quite excited and enthralled by the whole episode and being angry at the subsequent long penal sentences, deterrent sentences warning the great unwashed about robbing from and embarrassing the state. As for Biggs, he served almost 10 years in prison, a length of time now served by many murders and rapists. May he Rest IN Peace
He was an old school London villain. According to this mornings R5Live, the man who coshed Driver Mills bribed the police and was never arrested for his part in the robbery. Shades of 'Law and Order'. The robbery took place in an era where Christine Keeler was shagging members of the British cabinet at the same time as she was being shagged by a Russian spy. Stephen Ward, Keeler's 'mentor', was (allegedly) murdered by MI5 to prevent too many secrets of Keeler and Rice Davies's affairs being revealed to the world at large and causing more embarrassment to the government headed by the ridiculous Harold MacMillan, the Grouse Shooter General. What has this to do with Biggs?: MI5 have never been investigated over Ward's death, Biggs and others were sentenced to 30 years in prison for their parts in the GTR. Biggs was present at the 'coshing', it was not he who coshed Mills. As stated above, the 'cosher' allegedly totally escaped justice due to corruption in high places. The GTR livened up a very dull era during which Britain started to undergo great change, the Beatles, Harold Wilson, all that 60's stuff. I recall people being quite excited and enthralled by the whole episode and being angry at the subsequent long penal sentences, deterrent sentences warning the great unwashed about robbing from and embarrassing the state. As for Biggs, he served almost 10 years in prison, a length of time now served by many murders and rapists. May he Rest IN Peace
One last point. Coincidentally, BBC1 has a dramatisation of the GTR over the next two night. So Ronnie Biggs, like the prison escape, the Rio kidnapping and the Sex Pistols episode, you knew to the last how to court maximum publicity : RIP
He was an old school London villain. According to this mornings R5Live, the man who coshed Driver Mills bribed the police and was never arrested for his part in the robbery. Shades of 'Law and Order'. The robbery took place in an era where Christine Keeler was shagging members of the British cabinet at the same time as she was being shagged by a Russian spy. Stephen Ward, Keeler's 'mentor', was (allegedly) murdered by MI5 to prevent too many secrets of Keeler and Rice Davies's affairs being revealed to the world at large and causing more embarrassment to the government headed by the ridiculous Harold MacMillan, the Grouse Shooter General. What has this to do with Biggs?: MI5 have never been investigated over Ward's death, Biggs and others were sentenced to 30 years in prison for their parts in the GTR. Biggs was present at the 'coshing', it was not he who coshed Mills. As stated above, the 'cosher' allegedly totally escaped justice due to corruption in high places. The GTR livened up a very dull era during which Britain started to undergo great change, the Beatles, Harold Wilson, all that 60's stuff. I recall people being quite excited and enthralled by the whole episode and being angry at the subsequent long penal sentences, deterrent sentences warning the great unwashed about robbing from and embarrassing the state. As for Biggs, he served almost 10 years in prison, a length of time now served by many murders and rapists. May he Rest IN Peace
OK he may not have struck the blow on the train driver but he must have caused him great distress by the act of the act of the robbery itself. Also, as far as I'm aware, he has never actually named the 'cosher'.
The implication that he should be respected because he livened up a dull period and 'served his time' compared to others seems a little thin to me.
He does not. Comparing a freedom fighter against oppression to an admitted yet 'lovable' rogue is just ridiculous and argumentative for its own sake. Are we saying that anti Nazi, European WW2 resistance fighters were guilty of terrorism and / or murder?
someone convicted for opposing an oppressive apartheid regime who then went on to become president and work for reconciliation and a two bob violent crook and deserter is NOT a valid comparison.
Comments
The problem is you have just described what is wrong with the world.
We can't really be critical of radical Islam and the current youth gang culture and hold up people like Biggs as someone to look up to and aspire to be like.
Personally I think both are wrong.
The simple point is - and you will discover it if you read about it - that Biggs was part of the greatest robbery of modern times but when in Brazil all he really wanted - as verified by plenty of people - was to be back in London among friends and family and the places he knew.
Nobody detests the glorification of criminals more than I do but the point is simple, that being that even with plenty of money (although it eventually ran out) that all Biggs really wanted was to come home to what he knew and loved.
The truth is that people often dream of riches, gained legally or otherwise, but what makes us truly happy is not money or what it brings but the simple, humble pleasures of home.
All this misty eyed romanticism about the Krays, Biggs etc is complete and utter bollox. Robbing, murderous scum.
Always been fascinated by some of the old 60s crime capers
Yes, I think that is generally understood.
The point - if people would take off their Daily Mail hats even momentarily - is that Biggs thought that money and exotic locations would bring happiness - but they did not because true happiness is about much more than that.
By the way, for The Sun readers among us - and I know we have plenty here - it is probably worth remembering that your august organ was a big supporter of him coming back to the UK on 'medical grounds' - they even paid for the chartered flight to bring him back to get an exclusive.
He would hardly do a bunk if he got 15 months, would he?
Just saying.
I do find these characters fascinating. I have read a lot about the Krays as my Uncle used to talk about them as he lived with a woman that was 'apparently' related to them (but I believe that three quarters of London and half of the country have made that claim in the past). The stories are interesting but nothing from anything that I've read has made me think they were the sort of people I would ever want to be friends with.
I will go out of my way to watch the programs on the BBC though, I don't respect the robbers, but the story about such a big heist is , in my view, well worth seeing. It also gives me a small insight into the times that my parents enjoyed - my dad was not a criminal, but obviously used to drink in pubs etc. in the 60s.
Ormiston I agree with a lot of what you say.My problem was making this an RIP thread and the fact that the Biggs made money out of the GTR. Normally I would stay out of a RIP if I had nothing positive to say,I even did not say anything critical about Thatcher in her thread because it was not the right place to do it.
I just feel that the glorification of the GTR as 'old school' is wrong when 2 innocent men were held in the way that they were which later contributed to their deaths.Violence leads to violence and a lot of our social problems now have been magnified and got worse from that era stemming from the traditional 'old school' gangster leading to the modern gangsta behaviours.Yet some people seem to separate the two.
Jack Mills suffered which is wrong but there is something to admire about the ambition and audacity of the great train robbers even if you have to admire in silence.
What separates a scumbag and a character ?
.. around 50 years
BTW, one little known development that came out of the robbery was that, henceforth, the Bank of England punched holes through the serial numbers and Chief Cashier's signature on dirty old notes being transported for destruction prior to them being moved in large numbers. So, even if they had been nicked they would have been worthless.
The robbery took place in an era where Christine Keeler was shagging members of the British cabinet at the same time as she was being shagged by a Russian spy. Stephen Ward, Keeler's 'mentor', was (allegedly) murdered by MI5 to prevent too many secrets of Keeler and Rice Davies's affairs being revealed to the world at large and causing more embarrassment to the government headed by the ridiculous Harold MacMillan, the Grouse Shooter General.
What has this to do with Biggs?: MI5 have never been investigated over Ward's death, Biggs and others were sentenced to 30 years in prison for their parts in the GTR. Biggs was present at the 'coshing', it was not he who coshed Mills. As stated above, the 'cosher' allegedly totally escaped justice due to corruption in high places.
The GTR livened up a very dull era during which Britain started to undergo great change, the Beatles, Harold Wilson, all that 60's stuff. I recall people being quite excited and enthralled by the whole episode and being angry at the subsequent long penal sentences, deterrent sentences warning the great unwashed about robbing from and embarrassing the state.
As for Biggs, he served almost 10 years in prison, a length of time now served by many murders and rapists. May he Rest IN Peace
One last point. Coincidentally, BBC1 has a dramatisation of the GTR over the next two night. So Ronnie Biggs, like the prison escape, the Rio kidnapping and the Sex Pistols episode, you knew to the last how to court maximum publicity : RIP
The implication that he should be respected because he livened up a dull period and 'served his time' compared to others seems a little thin to me.
He does not. Comparing a freedom fighter against oppression to an admitted yet 'lovable' rogue is just ridiculous and argumentative for its own sake. Are we saying that anti Nazi, European WW2 resistance fighters were guilty of terrorism and / or murder?