As a former steel worker, I simply think of industry as hard work, creating something useful. Now I am in the 'security industry' and have to attend 'workshops' I think these phrases have been hijacked by shiny-arsed bull-shitters who need a value label to justify them/ourselves
An Alexei Sayle gag from whenever. You have to picture a big smug toothless grin when he finishes and an acerbic scouse accent throughout for it to really work.
"Anybody who ever uses the word workshop, unless they work in manufacturing or light industry, is a complete and utter twat".
I was wondering that myself as I walked away from Bloomfield Road and the answer is probably yes but I think the next 4 weeks will tell in which direction the club is moving, so to answer you question:
Grapevine, I think it is erroneous to think that if some supporters are less than enamoured with recent events, then we somehow are less than realistic and/or of sufficient intelligence to understand the basics of football economies. Other issues come into play. In the corrupt world that football has become, SCP epitomised the decent side of life and I valued that enormously. There is something very wrong with football if people like Chrissy get chucked and the shits remain. Maybe it's also that after the Olympics and Paralympics, I am finding the murky world of football somewhat less than appealing. Maybe I am no longer addicted to football, maybe personal events have shifted my focus, I'm not sure yet. But delivering a sermon sure as hell doesn't help me. I don't mean that offensively but in setting up a false dichotomy, it may be a time worn tactic, but I still find it irritating.
I am not sure what your argument is - Is it that professional football is corrupt? Not the words I would use but I have no strong objection to such a view. Is it that a very decent man lost his job? No argument from me. Would you like to identify precisely to who "the shit remains" actually refers?
In the coming days and weeks there will be a thousand or more people involved in professional football out of work as their contracts expire. Somewhere, sitting in the offices of a nearly a hundred clubs people, based on their professional judgement of whether an individual can continue to make a contribution to their club, will have been making decisions on those peoples future. The vast majority of them, on both sides of the equation, will be very decent people.
In the world of professional sport or any commercial environment I ever worked in you are not paid for being a very decent person. Christopher Powell was an employee of the club being paid for his experience, talent and expertise in coaching and managing a football side. He performed commendably and with no little style but was presented with a different set of challenges which caused a difference of opinion as to the way forward. It led to a parting of the ways.
It does not diminish his talents or devalue what he has delivered to the club it simply means he and the owner could not agree a way to work together going forward. Sadly it appears in the opinion of the owner such impasse was beginning to interfere with the crucial job of delivering Championship safety. If so there was only ever going to be one outcome. I can but speak of my commercial experience where such scenarios though not a daily occurrence were not uncommon.
In truth NONE of us despite claims to the contrary can know the full details of the situation. It is a complete anathema to me people supposedly bound by strict terms of confidentiality would divulge any aspect of their professional interaction with anyone. It would display a complete lack of professionalism and integrity. No matter the perceived injustice it is divisive and reeks of self interest at one level or another.
We have seen assertion after assertion, projection after projection, rumour after rumour taking on a life of their own.
Ruff Diamonds "revelation" comes as no surprise at all. The burst of negative media comment concerning the new owner indicates someone, somewhere was more than a little peeved they had been outwitted by a dastardly Belgian. If someone seriously missed out on securing a £32mn business opportunity by simply not knowing where key personnel were, at any given time, then they deserved to miss out. As excuses go it ranks alongside "the dog ate my homework".
All I have done is point out a few facts and tried to put forward a balanced interpretation of events. I make no judgement on the economic understanding of anyone - indeed far from it - I have merely pointed out the reality of our circumstance. As I suggested it is an "inconvenient" truth. There is no "false" dichotomy, the conflict between any emotional evaluation and any financial circumstance is a challenge many face on a regular basis.
It is known as letting "the heart rule the head" but then it is easy to indulge emotional judgements when you do not have to pick up the bill. I am not sure those who have to run the business have the luxury of "bringing other issues into play" although it might be more helpful if you clarified what that those issues may be.
If I were Mr Powell I would be very disappointed, not specifically because I had lost my job but, because I had missed a very real opportunity to lend my undoubted talents to a different approach which may enable the club, with which I have such affinity, to prosper under a business model, which the club might actually be able to afford. The scope for educating a new owner into the ways of the UK game and for developing his own expertise and experience of a new way of working had all the ingredients of a "win - win - win" scenario for all of us.
Who or what managed to get in the way, of who or what, for that not to happen is unknown to us and rightly should remain so. If you and apparently others have chosen to embody your continued interest in our club or even the game itself into the well being of one person against such a background that is a matter for you. I suggest it is more than a little unfortunate but then I find the whole personality culture so prevalent today more than a little unfortunate.
G49, I think it is categorically obvious that it was RD and his vision for the future of CAFC which "managed to get in the way". Surely that is a matter of public record, not a point of debate?
Grapevine: You are a financial analyst knocking at my door and offering double-glazing. Not a single word of your posts has the slightest appreciation of the beauty and passion of watching football.
Imagine a deliciously curving pass - and a feint touch to set the striker free in the box. For many of our fans this is a move detached, distant, and almost unknown. I sit in the Lower North and want the opponents to win.
I have watched Charlton for almost 50 years. To beat the others, we need midfielders who can stamp their authority and advance quickly. Those men from Barnsley, Birmingham and Blackburn who regularly beat us at home - they are not thinking about their contracts, or their managers, or their chairmen - nor even their fans or their wives or their 'istory.
Grapevine: They play good football - and beat us well. Diego Poyet has been voted the Charlton Player of the Year - and he hasn't even crossed the half-way line. If I were Roland Duchatelet, I would demolish Sparrows Lane, sell it for flats and spend the money on good players.
No matter how decent a person Chris was and is football is a ruthless heartless soulless place
Do you think that the 17 yr old scholar who has dreamed of pulling on the red shirt of cafc since signing terms at 11 and every contract since
Thinks that Chris is a sound man with high values when Chris let him go for not being good enough
Do you think that Chris himself found that an enjoyable process
Do you think when Pfa chair Chris found it enjoyable talking to an old pro who missed the prem cash bandwagon and trying to help this man map out his future with no education
Knowing that he is as likely to end up an alcoholic in jail as he is to continue on in normal life
No he didn't
However the young scholar and the old pro are both as decent a person as Powell who has had their life changed by how dirty a business football is
I get the Powell love in I am a huge Powell fan
But don't let the fact Powell was dismissed from his post as a reason to stop watching and supporting cafc
Football is a dirty unforgiving sport
It's a pit of deciept and lies money and corruption
Powell was part of the game we love but for every Powell you have blatter
And you always will have
You have all supported cafc through this for years
Powell wouldn't think your special for considering your options
He would just as quickly sign to be mgr of palace today as he was shown the door at cafc
Don't forget that
No footballer loves your club the way you the fan does
If Powell had too and it was out of his new club and cafc In the last game of the season to do the next Bristol rovers
I would expect him to willing wishing and working in order to relegate us
It's a shit horrible sport that throws you snippets of love and enjoyment but it throws you shit loads of pain on that journey
The thing is, we respect Chrissy's decency -but the biggest disapointment was losing a good manager. But it does often happen when a new owner comes in - usually a bit quicker! In the interests of being totally fair, I do think it is right to accept that from my perspective that there were some elements of Chrissy's tactics that I found frustrating. I thought we put a higher priority on not losing rather than winning this season. I remember making the point in a post that it is much better to win 2 in 4 than draw 3. But. And it is a big but. Chrissy had his budget drastically cut when he had got us in a position to push on. He made a call on what was the best approach for his weakened team - which had also lost its player of the year through injury. And my preference to how the game should be played is only that - my preference. Had he been backed, I doubt we would be having a conversation about his managerial skills in the past tense. There is more to being a manager than in game tactics - building a decent squad is probably even more important. In this respect, I had no issues with Chrissy and I think he could have brought us great success in the right conditions. I think we suffered a bit in the first half of the season from poor refs and more than our share of bad luck too.
Unfortunately, the new owner came on and had a different ethos to Chrissy. As this involved selling two key players and bringing in replacements Chrissy didn't think were good enough wouldn't have helped. The approach RD took on buying the club was a needless one IMO. It had too many risks in it - one of the risks paid off (appointing Riga). He was rightly treated with suspicion, but the fans did take the approach that he should have a chance and he immediately showed he was his own man buy not picking the network players that Chrissy got in trouble for for not playing. He also got results at the right time and his tactics were more about winning. But the games we won could have gone either way so you need a bit of luck. We also had a bit of luck in that key players avoided injury in the latter part of the season. So if Riga was going to save us, it was going to be with the players Chrissy brought in.We shouldn't forget that fact. Players that were largely brought in with the money we got for Jenkinson in league one.
Riga has been impressive but the big unknown, which will know a bit more about in the coming months is how good our team building will be. We know under Powell we had a manager who was great at it. But one of the reasons he couldn't sign up to the new regime's policy, is that RD does not see this as the role of the manager. We do know - and the fact that we survived shouldn't alter this - that the activity on the transfer front - in and out - has started off badly. Now we have to wait and see if we can start getting players in and not lose key ingredients. There has to be a doubt about this as what I have seen hasn't inspired confidence. So it shouldn't be a case of people saying - well we had no reason to worry. I think all fans want to see positive dealings and if it happens - and I accept it could. We could be very strong next year. At this stage, we could also be very weak.
I judge on the evidence put in front of me. Chrissy was a great manager overall and was only going to get better. Riga did a great job under difficult circumstances. What I haven't seen yet is that RD and his network has the ability to get Charlton the players it needs to be competitive. I hope to see it but the evidence I have so far doesn't fill me with confidence. But they could have learned lessons and I'm sure there is not one fan who doesn't want a summer of positive activity. We will know a lot more in the months to come.
I "liked" all four of those last posts; those of SA, Grapevine, NLA and Muttley. Each has points of great merit, reflecting that football is a business like no other, with many conflicting pressures that come together to make it uniquely difficult to understand. Indeed the fact that so many of us try so hard to understand it reflects the unique relationship we have. You may have issues with your Telco, your bank or your water supplier, but I bet you don't feel like 'understanding' any of them in the way that many of us want to understand our football club. Nor are Charlton fans in any way unique in seeking that understanding.
You persist Grapevine in presenting current events as a choice between the rational and the emotional. It is this that I take issue with. You will of course wish to portray your view as the balanced one but I also suggest that it is for others to decide whether or not this is the case. It is a cold financial assessment, such things are necessary I would agree. But in making those very financial assessments an understanding of the business is required. Football is a business that relies solely upon the love that it's customers have for the product, i.e. a passion for the beautiful game. RD clearly did not understand what he was buying and selling, but despite that we have thankfully survived and we are all heartily relieved. The last owners took the first chance they had to get what money they could and scarper. I would have done the same. RD bought us and the other guys were squeezed out. I can understand that. But I am entitled to question aspects of the RD experiment ( for that is what it is) without such questions being portrayed as an emotional spasm. I have quite a few reservations and perhaps my biggest worry is that he does not seem to understand football. Why did RD suddenly decide to start buying football clubs, can you really treat human beings as products to be shipped around Europe to satisfy supply and demand? My questions are many. I am also allowed to miss Chrissy Powell, the fact that this is an emotional response does not of itself invalidate my other questions.
On the one hand I have to agree with Grapevine that CP left because of an impasse with the owner on the way forward. Further, it has been suggested to me by those close to the situation that Chris, as well as RD, was a bit pig-headed about it. Grapevine is absolutely right to say that this kind of scenario plays out often in a lot of businesses, and it is always the case that the boss wins. Or at least, the boss wins the argument in the short term.
However, the interesting thing is that it is possible to argue that RD's response was emotional rather than rational.
I've just been reading a paper by Stefan Szymanski, a respected economics academic professor who focuses on football. I hope this link works . Essentially he demonstrates that there is a very strong correlation between a club's wage bill and its league position.
Now, we all know that it is very difficult to be rational about a football manager's performance. However like any manager, in any business, a football manager wants to be judged on rational measurable criteria (KPIs in modern business parlance). Chris Powell has not to my knowledge said anything that breaks professional confidentiality, nor in any way said anything which seeks to criticise his former employer. He is however entitled to promote his professional credentials, and he has done this with one key claim;
Last season Charlton had the 18th biggest wage bill, but finished 9th.
(to which I would add that in the previous season Charlton were champions with a wage bill 50% less than that of Huddersfield, who finished 4th)
So under CP, Charlton 'busted' the Szymanski model. In business terms he helped the club to massively over-perform on a key business indicator.
We do not know yet where Charlton figured in this season's league table of wage bills, however since there were further cuts, it is reasonable to assume we were in the relegation zone. Specifically on TV when CP was asked why Charlton had done worse this season he immediately replied "we let four strikers go and did not adequately replace them".
So the point is that those who expressed disquiet about CP's sacking were not just doing so on "emotional" grounds. There were good rational reasons to consider that the decision was not rational!
But that is not to say that the decision was a 'mistake'. It is credible that from a dispassionate viewpoint CP did not seek to constructively embrace a new way of doing things. Jose Riga did, because he was already an RD man, and I do not mean that in a derogatory way. It meant that Riga could turn around and tell RD that most of the players sent over were a load of Koc, and he had no more intention of playing them than CP had. RD accepted it from JR because he already knew and trusted him. This tells us that the key decisions made by RD were, if not exactly emotional, certainly qualitative. That is why the old cliche 'its a results business' is not quite as wise as people assume when they trot it out.
I think Muttley's summary was an excellent one. We don't have to divide on tribal lines, nor pretend that it's an argument of rational vs emotional. It is about doing our best to understand how our new owner thinks and what his goals and strategy for achieving them are. I make no apology for constantly doing this until we are clear about it, but agree we should be rational, fair, and open-minded in doing so.
Possible response #1: "I do have some concerns about your business model, it is untested and I can see some problems with it..but i see some possible merits and I really want to try & make it work. By the way, those players you've parachuted in, they're not good enough...and I really think we should have held our noses and offered Yann more"
Possible response #2 "I have some big concerns about your business model, it is untested and I can see some serious problems with it. And those players you've parachuted in, they're not good enough. And I'm unhappy that we didn't offer Yann more"
Pure guesswork, but I suspect Chris' feelings and perhaps response was closer to #2. It's a perfectly valid response, and in line with plenty of the views expressed on CL over the past few months. But it is untenable...
If one purely considers rationality then nobody would buy a football club.
It is extremely difficult to make a profit and even the most successful clubs are hamstrung by debt.
So why do people persist in purchasing football clubs given the above? Two essential reasons in my view. Firstly a sound financial one in that the football losses can legitimately be "group relieved" (I use British terminology here) against profits from other business entities for tax purposes if the structure is set up right.
Secondly that sound financial reason, namely offsetting losses against other profits, enables successful businessmen to gain considerable kudos whilst indulging a hobby. In other words it is an emotional desire just like you, me or any other "ordinary" fan.
That is why, sound as it is in logic and financial fact, Grapevine's analysis is limited in my opinion and I speak as one of his admirers 99 times out of 100.
Emotion comes into the equation whoever you are. The businessman is probably better equipped to "switch off" that emotion, as that ability is almost certainly partly how he has made his money, if the costs get too high but emotion is the driving force which is no different to Stilladdicted, Weegie, Prague, me etc.
Or perhaps Chrissy wanted to have control over which players he brought in, allowed to go, chose to play. On this point I actually have some sympathy with the club owners. When you see how Pardew wasted millions, i would want a bit more say than is currently accepted. Chris was old school manager and paid the price. My view, for what it's worth was that Chrissy needed a skilled tactician who would challenge him . I loved AD but always felt from the outset that they were almost too alike in their way of thinking. I quite fancy having both Jose and Chrissy at the helm but I somehow think it won't happen ;-) It was inevitable that Chrissy would have to go and as I am a adherent of tippy tippy football, I also got frustrated with our style of play. I just felt that our tedious play was mainly dictated by a very limited choice of players although Chrissy was inevitably going to be a son of Curbs. RD may yet turn out to be a brilliant visionary or he may come to be seen as a slightly bonkers failed politician and football club owner. But anyone who tries to take the emotion out of football will ultimately fail. I have yet to be persuaded that RD understands this.
For someone like me who in general is more positive then negative about the new owners plan, yet loves SCP(im still calling him this), the saddest thing about this season is that in the end i agreed with the decision to change Manager/Head Coach, as i think we would have gone down under Chrissy, not because of a lack of tactical skill or failing in that way but because a negative atmosphere had spread due to the change of ownership and Chris quite within his rights decided to make a stand over what enviroment he was happy to work in.
I personally have managed to move on fairly quickly from the heartbreak of the SCP journey not ending 10 more years in the future when he left us to become England manager as i predicted, due to three main reason.
1. We stayed up, which was huge considering our FA Cup heartbreak, limited squad, honest mistakes in the January transfer market and our busy schedule of games.
2. I believe in the new owners philosphy in general and im hopeful that we could see a future of enjoyable passing football played by half a team of youth players and some young hungry foreign talent.
3. That our likeable all round nice guy Manager has been replaced by another likeable all round nice guy, even if he is not our likeable nice guy(yet).
Im not sure why we can't be sad Chrissy is gone but at the same time, not feeling the need to have a constant attack on anything our new owner does, that a small minority on both sides seem to want to enforce.
As other posters have said, football is indeed a business, but it is a funny sort of business, where clubs compete against others in non-business like ways. Clubs like QPR who set out to make massive losses. It is also a business, where you can do much right of the off the pitch, but suffer from getting relegated. You can get relegated by the poor eyesight of an official or a bad bounce of the ball. I would imagine, Doncaster are one of the better run clubs at this level for instance and Blackburn, Bolton and QPR the worst! This is where football differs from business in general. A great example of this is selling Kermogant. From the business angle, everything about this was right – an aging player who won’t command a transfer fee going forward. But, the money it brought in had to be offset against the risk that it would make us more likely to be relegated. That is where football as a business can be different! The cost of relegation would have been greater than the money the sale brought in. RD said himself in the programme that Charlton couldn't afford to be relegated. Fortunately we survived and it goes back to being a good bit of business again, but the margins between success and failure can be very narrow.
When Airman said it could be the most needless relegation in our history, he wasn't saying we would get relegated, he was referring to the possibility that we could. And those who choose to use the fact that we stayed up as justification for the approach, are in my opinion missing the point.
A successful business man presumably learns lessons fast, so hopefully dodging the bullet, now means we will make the right calls in the summer and have a successful season. But it is not unreasonable to wait for some clear evidence before building up our hopes. Developments like Riga staying on, key out of contract players signing up and I will be as optimistic as the next man or woman. I just haven't forgotten the frustration I felt in our winter transfer activity - both inwards and outwards. As a fan, I have little interest in being told we nearly got this player or that one - I want to see some success in this area. It is what the club needs to be successful.
@pragueaddick In the piece I wrote on 2013 Championship finances for the supporters trust I noted that there is no obvious correlation between money spent and league position in the championship. Clubs like Burnley and Derby have succeeded with an overall cost base of £22M whereas some of the clubs with parachute payments have failed with costs of £40-50M. However one thing is absolutely clear: once one cuts the football and non football costs to £17M or less then you are in for a relegation fight. Millwall, Peterborough, Doncaster, Yeovil, Barnsley and now Charlton have all tried "competing" with that level of financing.
Now there is a very strong correlation in the premier league between wage bill and league position and one could therefore look at why this doesn't hold for the Championship: Second season factor as competitor clubs suss you out? The impacts of relegation from the Premier League - very few clubs bounce back in the automatic slots - one could argue that Burnley did but their model looks altogether different to other relegated clubs Good overall management and football coaching - I like this one! The Championship is uber competitive and requires as much if not more skill than a mid table premier league club to build a winning squad with the finances available.
Once we know who is being retained it might be a good time to appraise the last three years at CAFC in terms of the Slater/Jiminez/Powell era and look at how one season we finish 9th straight after coming up and yet the next we are bottom of the league albeit with games in hand. I'm afraid the simple answer is to look at the strikers with Fuller, Hulse, Kermorgant one season and then they are all gone. And yet we have won more games this season without Kermorgant than with. And in the last few games Sordell and Harriott have been scoring for fun with a new style of football.
Everyone is capable of beating everyone else and to hammer out four points home and away against each and every bottom half team is what is needed to challenge for the playoffs. Riga has already intimated that there is a great base to build on but that CAFC need better players to move forwards. I think the ball is firmly in Duchatelet's court to secure the head coach and retain players... and to explain some of the vision to the fans.
Some very balanced and interesting posts showing exactly where we the fans find ourselves in terms of finding for or agin the new regime. Eight weeks ago it was obvious that views were very polarised but I think it's fair to say that events since Chris's departure have gone some way to pouring oil on what was troubled water.
I like GretnaGreenAddick am finding myself having a leaning towards the new regime. I have long thought that football in this Premier League centric country is heading for hell in a handcart. Every club bar a couple in the PL running ridiculous debt and likewise in the Championship each club unable to run at anything other than a loss. As for the lower two divisions, god only knows how they survive. This is unsustainable and in any other business the creditors would be pulling the plug. It cannot go on. FFP is a decent enough idea but the jury is still out on its ability to succeed or even it's legality. Something has to happen and I for one welcome a new model that might just work and give financial security to Charlton that has not been possible under any of the owners for many years.
I don't want to see CAFC going the way of Birmingham, Leeds, and countless others in a boom bust existence at the mercy of of both benevolent or lunatic owners. A sustainable way forward has to be found and I applaud RD for having the guts and foresight to try.
Henry Irving has oft posted that he feels that the club will move forward under RD but that the next couple of years might be uncomfortable. I agree 100% with this view.
What exactly is the alternative ? More years of losing 5 million each and every season chasing and competing with the rest of the lunatics or looking to find another way. Katrien has been quoted as saying that Roland doesn't do failure. I suspect that he will learn the hard lessons that football teaches him very quickly. He is a hugely successful businessman.
I doubt he will ever be won over in the emotional stakes and learn to love Charlton Athletic as we do but I think in KM we have someone that has already made that emotional transition and can act as the trusted link with the man with the vision.
We will find out soon enough I'm sure where we are heading and I am for one excited by the prospect of the journey.
If FFP does bed in it will definitely be to our advantage - but does anybody think it will? Just because it is so obviously needed means nothing in a game where money holds all the power. There is news talk of Man City being fined £50m. Yes, a sizeable amount even for them - but preferable to them than losing a meagre 3 points I would say. The initial FFP suggestion that any fines go to the other clubs in the league sounded right. Clubs that might be disadvantaged by QPRs approach which morally is cheating. Clubs it would hurt QPR to make stronger by taking the unsustainable approach they have. But the clubs with money have the power to fight it and so it gets watered down.
Barcelona get a transfer ban for nicking young players from smaller clubs – akin to a millionaire getting out of his Bentley and stealing a tramps coins from his cup. But they fight it and are free to do the same again this year – maybe they will even nick Poyet from a tramp living in SE7! I would like to see a range of punishments – and the one that is applied should be the most painful one in the circumstances. But you can’t sort the game out if the big clubs won’t let you! And they never will. I think it is a form of capitalism after all.
If RD is planning around FFP - I think he is making a mistake. By the time action gets taken, it will be so watered down as to be meaningless.
I sit in the Lower North and want the opponents to win.
Diego Poyet has been voted the Charlton Player of the Year - and he hasn't even crossed the half-way line. If I were Roland Duchatelet, I would demolish Sparrows Lane, sell it for flats and spend the money on good players.
Szymanksi's study covers BOTH the FAPL and the Championship together, and this over a 10 year period.
Personally I am not a big fan of Mr Szymanski, but that's for qualitative reasons. I would not dare to argue with his methodology.
I think the methodology is suspect as it assumes the same approach over the ten year time period - so fine if you've had Wenger as manager throughout but a bit suspect if you've gone from Curbishley to Dowie/Pardew and then to no money spent with Parkinson and Powell. The graphic shows CAFC to the right of the line or spending more for average performance than a typical club but that is not our experience of the last three years, is it?
As before a Charlton comparison between CAFC wages vs mean and league position for each era might be more valid.
Chris Powell was sacked because we were bottom of the league, could not score, and had been dumped out of the Cup by our inferiors. It was absolutely right that Duchatelet axed Powell.
There is a constituency on this forum that said: "Even if we are relegated, I want Powell to manage us against Crawley, Colchester, and Port Vale". Would Powell have saved us? It's a daft argument: Even the Gods don't know.
Duchatelet timed it precisely. He gave Powell a month to carry on not winning - and then he gave another manager twelve games to save us from Chesterfield and Fleetwood. If Duchatelet had made the change with only six games left, we might have been adrift - too late.
May I put it another way? If Duchaletet had ignored the fans' intense love of Powell and given Riga the job when he bought the club - quickly - we might now be basking in the satisfaction of finishing ninth rather than eighteenth.
Among all the unknowns, one thing is absolutely certain. We must find some midfield players who are physically strong and mentally sharp to compete seriously in the Championship.
Chris Powell was sacked because we were bottom of the league, could not score, and had been dumped out of the Cup by our inferiors. It was absolutely right that Duchatelet axed Powell.
Yawn... even though as has been said on here, by RD and by SCP himself ad nauseam, he wasn't sacked because of results or league position.
We all know it was because we didn't practise our throw-ins properly on the training ground...
Chris Powell was sacked because we were bottom of the league, could not score, and had been dumped out of the Cup by our inferiors. It was absolutely right that Duchatelet axed Powell.
Yawn... even though as has been said on here, by RD and by SCP himself ad nauseam, he wasn't sacked because of results or league position.
We all know it was because we didn't practise our throw-ins properly on the training ground...
Chris Powell wasn't sacked because we were bottom of the league and couldn't score? LeaburnForEngland: can you find another reason?
Comments
"Anybody who ever uses the word workshop, unless they work in manufacturing or light industry, is a complete and utter twat".
@lancashire lad So have you got your Charlton back?
yesish, maybe, possibly, we'll see!
Maybe it's also that after the Olympics and Paralympics, I am finding the murky world of football somewhat less than appealing. Maybe I am no longer addicted to football, maybe personal events have shifted my focus, I'm not sure yet. But delivering a sermon sure as hell doesn't help me. I don't mean that offensively but in setting up a false dichotomy, it may be a time worn tactic, but I still find it irritating.
I am not sure what your argument is - Is it that professional football is corrupt? Not the words I would use but I have no strong objection to such a view. Is it that a very decent man lost his job? No argument from me. Would you like to identify precisely to who "the shit remains" actually refers?
In the coming days and weeks there will be a thousand or more people involved in professional football out of work as their contracts expire. Somewhere, sitting in the offices of a nearly a hundred clubs people, based on their professional judgement of whether an individual can continue to make a contribution to their club, will have been making decisions on those peoples future. The vast majority of them, on both sides of the equation, will be very decent people.
In the world of professional sport or any commercial environment I ever worked in you are not paid for being a very decent person. Christopher Powell was an employee of the club being paid for his experience, talent and expertise in coaching and managing a football side. He performed commendably and with no little style but was presented with a different set of challenges which caused a difference of opinion as to the way forward. It led to a parting of the ways.
It does not diminish his talents or devalue what he has delivered to the club it simply means he and the owner could not agree a way to work together going forward. Sadly it appears in the opinion of the owner such impasse was beginning to interfere with the crucial job of delivering Championship safety. If so there was only ever going to be one outcome. I can but speak of my commercial experience where such scenarios though not a daily occurrence were not uncommon.
In truth NONE of us despite claims to the contrary can know the full details of the situation. It is a complete anathema to me people supposedly bound by strict terms of confidentiality would divulge any aspect of their professional interaction with anyone. It would display a complete lack of professionalism and integrity. No matter the perceived injustice it is divisive and reeks of self interest at one level or another.
We have seen assertion after assertion, projection after projection, rumour after rumour taking on a life of their own.
Ruff Diamonds "revelation" comes as no surprise at all. The burst of negative media comment concerning the new owner indicates someone, somewhere was more than a little peeved they had been outwitted by a dastardly Belgian. If someone seriously missed out on securing a £32mn business opportunity by simply not knowing where key personnel were, at any given time, then they deserved to miss out. As excuses go it ranks alongside "the dog ate my homework".
All I have done is point out a few facts and tried to put forward a balanced interpretation of events. I make no judgement on the economic understanding of anyone - indeed far from it - I have merely pointed out the reality of our circumstance. As I suggested it is an "inconvenient" truth. There is no "false" dichotomy, the conflict between any emotional evaluation and any financial circumstance is a challenge many face on a regular basis.
It is known as letting "the heart rule the head" but then it is easy to indulge emotional judgements when you do not have to pick up the bill. I am not sure those who have to run the business have the luxury of "bringing other issues into play" although it might be more helpful if you clarified what that those issues may be.
If I were Mr Powell I would be very disappointed, not specifically because I had lost my job but, because I had missed a very real opportunity to lend my undoubted talents to a different approach which may enable the club, with which I have such affinity, to prosper under a business model, which the club might actually be able to afford. The scope for educating a new owner into the ways of the UK game and for developing his own expertise and experience of a new way of working had all the ingredients of a "win - win - win" scenario for all of us.
Who or what managed to get in the way, of who or what, for that not to happen is unknown to us and rightly should remain so. If you and apparently others have chosen to embody your continued interest in our club or even the game itself into the well being of one person against such a background that is a matter for you. I suggest it is more than a little unfortunate but then I find the whole personality culture so prevalent today more than a little unfortunate.
Imagine a deliciously curving pass - and a feint touch to set the striker free in the box. For many of our fans this is a move detached, distant, and almost unknown. I sit in the Lower North and want the opponents to win.
I have watched Charlton for almost 50 years. To beat the others, we need midfielders who can stamp their authority and advance quickly. Those men from Barnsley, Birmingham and Blackburn who regularly beat us at home - they are not thinking about their contracts, or their managers, or their chairmen - nor even their fans or their wives or their 'istory.
Grapevine: They play good football - and beat us well. Diego Poyet has been voted the Charlton Player of the Year - and he hasn't even crossed the half-way line. If I were Roland Duchatelet, I would demolish Sparrows Lane, sell it for flats and spend the money on good players.
Do you think that the 17 yr old scholar who has dreamed of pulling on the red shirt of cafc since signing terms at 11 and every contract since
Thinks that Chris is a sound man with high values when Chris let him go for not being good enough
Do you think that Chris himself found that an enjoyable process
Do you think when Pfa chair Chris found it enjoyable talking to an old pro who missed the prem cash bandwagon and trying to help this man map out his future with no education
Knowing that he is as likely to end up an alcoholic in jail as he is to continue on in normal life
No he didn't
However the young scholar and the old pro are both as decent a person as Powell who has had their life changed by how dirty a business football is
I get the Powell love in I am a huge Powell fan
But don't let the fact Powell was dismissed from his post as a reason to stop watching and supporting cafc
Football is a dirty unforgiving sport
It's a pit of deciept and lies money and corruption
Powell was part of the game we love but for every Powell you have blatter
And you always will have
You have all supported cafc through this for years
Powell wouldn't think your special for considering your options
He would just as quickly sign to be mgr of palace today as he was shown the door at cafc
Don't forget that
No footballer loves your club the way you the fan does
If Powell had too and it was out of his new club and cafc In the last game of the season to do the next Bristol rovers
I would expect him to willing wishing and working in order to relegate us
It's a shit horrible sport that throws you snippets of love and enjoyment but it throws you shit loads of pain on that journey
Unfortunately, the new owner came on and had a different ethos to Chrissy. As this involved selling two key players and bringing in replacements Chrissy didn't think were good enough wouldn't have helped. The approach RD took on buying the club was a needless one IMO. It had too many risks in it - one of the risks paid off (appointing Riga). He was rightly treated with suspicion, but the fans did take the approach that he should have a chance and he immediately showed he was his own man buy not picking the network players that Chrissy got in trouble for for not playing. He also got results at the right time and his tactics were more about winning. But the games we won could have gone either way so you need a bit of luck. We also had a bit of luck in that key players avoided injury in the latter part of the season. So if Riga was going to save us, it was going to be with the players Chrissy brought in.We shouldn't forget that fact. Players that were largely brought in with the money we got for Jenkinson in league one.
Riga has been impressive but the big unknown, which will know a bit more about in the coming months is how good our team building will be. We know under Powell we had a manager who was great at it. But one of the reasons he couldn't sign up to the new regime's policy, is that RD does not see this as the role of the manager. We do know - and the fact that we survived shouldn't alter this - that the activity on the transfer front - in and out - has started off badly. Now we have to wait and see if we can start getting players in and not lose key ingredients. There has to be a doubt about this as what I have seen hasn't inspired confidence. So it shouldn't be a case of people saying - well we had no reason to worry. I think all fans want to see positive dealings and if it happens - and I accept it could. We could be very strong next year. At this stage, we could also be very weak.
I judge on the evidence put in front of me. Chrissy was a great manager overall and was only going to get better. Riga did a great job under difficult circumstances. What I haven't seen yet is that RD and his network has the ability to get Charlton the players it needs to be competitive. I hope to see it but the evidence I have so far doesn't fill me with confidence. But they could have learned lessons and I'm sure there is not one fan who doesn't want a summer of positive activity. We will know a lot more in the months to come.
It is a cold financial assessment, such things are necessary I would agree. But in making those very financial assessments an understanding of the business is required. Football is a business that relies solely upon the love that it's customers have for the product, i.e. a passion for the beautiful game. RD clearly did not understand what he was buying and selling, but despite that we have thankfully survived and we are all heartily relieved.
The last owners took the first chance they had to get what money they could and scarper. I would have done the same. RD bought us and the other guys were squeezed out. I can understand that.
But I am entitled to question aspects of the RD experiment ( for that is what it is) without such questions being portrayed as an emotional spasm. I have quite a few reservations and perhaps my biggest worry is that he does not seem to understand football.
Why did RD suddenly decide to start buying football clubs, can you really treat human beings as products to be shipped around Europe to satisfy supply and demand? My questions are many. I am also allowed to miss Chrissy Powell, the fact that this is an emotional response does not of itself invalidate my other questions.
On the one hand I have to agree with Grapevine that CP left because of an impasse with the owner on the way forward. Further, it has been suggested to me by those close to the situation that Chris, as well as RD, was a bit pig-headed about it. Grapevine is absolutely right to say that this kind of scenario plays out often in a lot of businesses, and it is always the case that the boss wins. Or at least, the boss wins the argument in the short term.
However, the interesting thing is that it is possible to argue that RD's response was emotional rather than rational.
I've just been reading a paper by Stefan Szymanski, a respected economics academic professor who focuses on football. I hope this link works . Essentially he demonstrates that there is a very strong correlation between a club's wage bill and its league position.
Now, we all know that it is very difficult to be rational about a football manager's performance. However like any manager, in any business, a football manager wants to be judged on rational measurable criteria (KPIs in modern business parlance). Chris Powell has not to my knowledge said anything that breaks professional confidentiality, nor in any way said anything which seeks to criticise his former employer. He is however entitled to promote his professional credentials, and he has done this with one key claim;
Last season Charlton had the 18th biggest wage bill, but finished 9th.
(to which I would add that in the previous season Charlton were champions with a wage bill 50% less than that of Huddersfield, who finished 4th)
So under CP, Charlton 'busted' the Szymanski model. In business terms he helped the club to massively over-perform on a key business indicator.
We do not know yet where Charlton figured in this season's league table of wage bills, however since there were further cuts, it is reasonable to assume we were in the relegation zone. Specifically on TV when CP was asked why Charlton had done worse this season he immediately replied "we let four strikers go and did not adequately replace them".
So the point is that those who expressed disquiet about CP's sacking were not just doing so on "emotional" grounds. There were good rational reasons to consider that the decision was not rational!
But that is not to say that the decision was a 'mistake'. It is credible that from a dispassionate viewpoint CP did not seek to constructively embrace a new way of doing things. Jose Riga did, because he was already an RD man, and I do not mean that in a derogatory way. It meant that Riga could turn around and tell RD that most of the players sent over were a load of Koc, and he had no more intention of playing them than CP had. RD accepted it from JR because he already knew and trusted him. This tells us that the key decisions made by RD were, if not exactly emotional, certainly qualitative. That is why the old cliche 'its a results business' is not quite as wise as people assume when they trot it out.
I think Muttley's summary was an excellent one. We don't have to divide on tribal lines, nor pretend that it's an argument of rational vs emotional. It is about doing our best to understand how our new owner thinks and what his goals and strategy for achieving them are. I make no apology for constantly doing this until we are clear about it, but agree we should be rational, fair, and open-minded in doing so.
"open minded" my middle names those.
Im with Grapevine 49 ----doubt he will be flattered.
Possible response #1: "I do have some concerns about your business model, it is untested and I can see some problems with it..but i see some possible merits and I really want to try & make it work. By the way, those players you've parachuted in, they're not good enough...and I really think we should have held our noses and offered Yann more"
Possible response #2 "I have some big concerns about your business model, it is untested and I can see some serious problems with it. And those players you've parachuted in, they're not good enough. And I'm unhappy that we didn't offer Yann more"
Pure guesswork, but I suspect Chris' feelings and perhaps response was closer to #2. It's a perfectly valid response, and in line with plenty of the views expressed on CL over the past few months. But it is untenable...
It is extremely difficult to make a profit and even the most successful clubs are hamstrung by debt.
So why do people persist in purchasing football clubs given the above? Two essential reasons in my view. Firstly a sound financial one in that the football losses can legitimately be "group relieved" (I use British terminology here) against profits from other business entities for tax purposes if the structure is set up right.
Secondly that sound financial reason, namely offsetting losses against other profits, enables successful businessmen to gain considerable kudos whilst indulging a hobby. In other words it is an emotional desire just like you, me or any other "ordinary" fan.
That is why, sound as it is in logic and financial fact, Grapevine's analysis is limited in my opinion and I speak as one of his admirers 99 times out of 100.
Emotion comes into the equation whoever you are. The businessman is probably better equipped to "switch off" that emotion, as that ability is almost certainly partly how he has made his money, if the costs get too high but emotion is the driving force which is no different to Stilladdicted, Weegie, Prague, me etc.
It was inevitable that Chrissy would have to go and as I am a adherent of tippy tippy football, I also got frustrated with our style of play. I just felt that our tedious play was mainly dictated by a very limited choice of players although Chrissy was inevitably going to be a son of Curbs.
RD may yet turn out to be a brilliant visionary or he may come to be seen as a slightly bonkers failed politician and football club owner.
But anyone who tries to take the emotion out of football will ultimately fail. I have yet to be persuaded that RD understands this.
I personally have managed to move on fairly quickly from the heartbreak of the SCP journey not ending 10 more years in the future when he left us to become England manager as i predicted, due to three main reason.
1. We stayed up, which was huge considering our FA Cup heartbreak, limited squad, honest mistakes in the January transfer market and our busy schedule of games.
2. I believe in the new owners philosphy in general and im hopeful that we could see a future of enjoyable passing football played by half a team of youth players and some young hungry foreign talent.
3. That our likeable all round nice guy Manager has been replaced by another likeable all round nice guy, even if he is not our likeable nice guy(yet).
Im not sure why we can't be sad Chrissy is gone but at the same time, not feeling the need to have a constant attack on anything our new owner does, that a small minority on both sides seem to want to enforce.
When Airman said it could be the most needless relegation in our history, he wasn't saying we would get relegated, he was referring to the possibility that we could. And those who choose to use the fact that we stayed up as justification for the approach, are in my opinion missing the point.
A successful business man presumably learns lessons fast, so hopefully dodging the bullet, now means we will make the right calls in the summer and have a successful season. But it is not unreasonable to wait for some clear evidence before building up our hopes. Developments like Riga staying on, key out of contract players signing up and I will be as optimistic as the next man or woman. I just haven't forgotten the frustration I felt in our winter transfer activity - both inwards and outwards. As a fan, I have little interest in being told we nearly got this player or that one - I want to see some success in this area. It is what the club needs to be successful.
Now there is a very strong correlation in the premier league between wage bill and league position and one could therefore look at why this doesn't hold for the Championship:
Second season factor as competitor clubs suss you out?
The impacts of relegation from the Premier League - very few clubs bounce back in the automatic slots - one could argue that Burnley did but their model looks altogether different to other relegated clubs
Good overall management and football coaching - I like this one! The Championship is uber competitive and requires as much if not more skill than a mid table premier league club to build a winning squad with the finances available.
Once we know who is being retained it might be a good time to appraise the last three years at CAFC in terms of the Slater/Jiminez/Powell era and look at how one season we finish 9th straight after coming up and yet the next we are bottom of the league albeit with games in hand. I'm afraid the simple answer is to look at the strikers with Fuller, Hulse, Kermorgant one season and then they are all gone. And yet we have won more games this season without Kermorgant than with. And in the last few games Sordell and Harriott have been scoring for fun with a new style of football.
Everyone is capable of beating everyone else and to hammer out four points home and away against each and every bottom half team is what is needed to challenge for the playoffs. Riga has already intimated that there is a great base to build on but that CAFC need better players to move forwards. I think the ball is firmly in Duchatelet's court to secure the head coach and retain players... and to explain some of the vision to the fans.
Szymanksi's study covers BOTH the FAPL and the Championship together, and this over a 10 year period.
Personally I am not a big fan of Mr Szymanski, but that's for qualitative reasons. I would not dare to argue with his methodology.
I like GretnaGreenAddick am finding myself having a leaning towards the new regime. I have long thought that football in this Premier League centric country is heading for hell in a handcart. Every club bar a couple in the PL running ridiculous debt and likewise in the Championship each club unable to run at anything other than a loss. As for the lower two divisions, god only knows how they survive. This is unsustainable and in any other business the creditors would be pulling the plug. It cannot go on. FFP is a decent enough idea but the jury is still out on its ability to succeed or even it's legality. Something has to happen and I for one welcome a new model that might just work and give financial security to Charlton that has not been possible under any of the owners for many years.
I don't want to see CAFC going the way of Birmingham, Leeds, and countless others in a boom bust existence at the mercy of of both benevolent or lunatic owners. A sustainable way forward has to be found and I applaud RD for having the guts and foresight to try.
Henry Irving has oft posted that he feels that the club will move forward under RD but that the next couple of years might be uncomfortable. I agree 100% with this view.
What exactly is the alternative ? More years of losing 5 million each and every season chasing and competing with the rest of the lunatics or looking to find another way. Katrien has been quoted as saying that Roland doesn't do failure. I suspect that he will learn the hard lessons that football teaches him very quickly. He is a hugely successful businessman.
I doubt he will ever be won over in the emotional stakes and learn to love Charlton Athletic as we do but I think in KM we have someone that has already made that emotional transition and can act as the trusted link with the man with the vision.
We will find out soon enough I'm sure where we are heading and I am for one excited by the prospect of the journey.
Barcelona get a transfer ban for nicking young players from smaller clubs – akin to a millionaire getting out of his Bentley and stealing a tramps coins from his cup. But they fight it and are free to do the same again this year – maybe they will even nick Poyet from a tramp living in SE7! I would like to see a range of punishments – and the one that is applied should be the most painful one in the circumstances. But you can’t sort the game out if the big clubs won’t let you! And they never will. I think it is a form of capitalism after all.
If RD is planning around FFP - I think he is making a mistake. By the time action gets taken, it will be so watered down as to be meaningless.
As before a Charlton comparison between CAFC wages vs mean and league position for each era might be more valid.
There is a constituency on this forum that said: "Even if we are relegated, I want Powell to manage us against Crawley, Colchester, and Port Vale". Would Powell have saved us? It's a daft argument: Even the Gods don't know.
Duchatelet timed it precisely. He gave Powell a month to carry on not winning - and then he gave another manager twelve games to save us from Chesterfield and Fleetwood. If Duchatelet had made the change with only six games left, we might have been adrift - too late.
May I put it another way? If Duchaletet had ignored the fans' intense love of Powell and given Riga the job when he bought the club - quickly - we might now be basking in the satisfaction of finishing ninth rather than eighteenth.
Among all the unknowns, one thing is absolutely certain. We must find some midfield players who are physically strong and mentally sharp to compete seriously in the Championship.
We all know it was because we didn't practise our throw-ins properly on the training ground...
It's been said so many times. Do try & keep up :-)