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New Article: Trying to square up the Circle of Discontent

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  • As a former steel worker, I simply think of industry as hard work, creating something useful.
    Now I am in the 'security industry' and have to attend 'workshops' I think these phrases have been hijacked by shiny-arsed bull-shitters who need a value label to justify them/ourselves

    An Alexei Sayle gag from whenever. You have to picture a big smug toothless grin when he finishes and an acerbic scouse accent throughout for it to really work.

    "Anybody who ever uses the word workshop, unless they work in manufacturing or light industry, is a complete and utter twat".

  • @lancashire lad‌ So have you got your Charlton back?

  • @lancashire lad‌ So have you got your Charlton back?

    I was wondering that myself as I walked away from Bloomfield Road and the answer is probably yes but I think the next 4 weeks will tell in which direction the club is moving, so to answer you question:

    yesish, maybe, possibly, we'll see!

  • G49, I think it is categorically obvious that it was RD and his vision for the future of CAFC which "managed to get in the way". Surely that is a matter of public record, not a point of debate?
  • edited May 2014
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  • edited May 2014
    Grapevine: You are a financial analyst knocking at my door and offering double-glazing. Not a single word of your posts has the slightest appreciation of the beauty and passion of watching football.

    Imagine a deliciously curving pass - and a feint touch to set the striker free in the box. For many of our fans this is a move detached, distant, and almost unknown. I sit in the Lower North and want the opponents to win.

    I have watched Charlton for almost 50 years. To beat the others, we need midfielders who can stamp their authority and advance quickly. Those men from Barnsley, Birmingham and Blackburn who regularly beat us at home - they are not thinking about their contracts, or their managers, or their chairmen - nor even their fans or their wives or their 'istory.

    Grapevine: They play good football - and beat us well. Diego Poyet has been voted the Charlton Player of the Year - and he hasn't even crossed the half-way line. If I were Roland Duchatelet, I would demolish Sparrows Lane, sell it for flats and spend the money on good players.

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  • I "liked" all four of those last posts; those of SA, Grapevine, NLA and Muttley. Each has points of great merit, reflecting that football is a business like no other, with many conflicting pressures that come together to make it uniquely difficult to understand. Indeed the fact that so many of us try so hard to understand it reflects the unique relationship we have. You may have issues with your Telco, your bank or your water supplier, but I bet you don't feel like 'understanding' any of them in the way that many of us want to understand our football club. Nor are Charlton fans in any way unique in seeking that understanding.
  • You persist Grapevine in presenting current events as a choice between the rational and the emotional. It is this that I take issue with. You will of course wish to portray your view as the balanced one but I also suggest that it is for others to decide whether or not this is the case.
    It is a cold financial assessment, such things are necessary I would agree. But in making those very financial assessments an understanding of the business is required. Football is a business that relies solely upon the love that it's customers have for the product, i.e. a passion for the beautiful game. RD clearly did not understand what he was buying and selling, but despite that we have thankfully survived and we are all heartily relieved.
    The last owners took the first chance they had to get what money they could and scarper. I would have done the same. RD bought us and the other guys were squeezed out. I can understand that.
    But I am entitled to question aspects of the RD experiment ( for that is what it is) without such questions being portrayed as an emotional spasm. I have quite a few reservations and perhaps my biggest worry is that he does not seem to understand football.
    Why did RD suddenly decide to start buying football clubs, can you really treat human beings as products to be shipped around Europe to satisfy supply and demand? My questions are many. I am also allowed to miss Chrissy Powell, the fact that this is an emotional response does not of itself invalidate my other questions.

  • good debate

    "open minded" my middle names those.

    Im with Grapevine 49 ----doubt he will be flattered.
  • A new owner comes in...

    Possible response #1: "I do have some concerns about your business model, it is untested and I can see some problems with it..but i see some possible merits and I really want to try & make it work. By the way, those players you've parachuted in, they're not good enough...and I really think we should have held our noses and offered Yann more"

    Possible response #2 "I have some big concerns about your business model, it is untested and I can see some serious problems with it. And those players you've parachuted in, they're not good enough. And I'm unhappy that we didn't offer Yann more"

    Pure guesswork, but I suspect Chris' feelings and perhaps response was closer to #2. It's a perfectly valid response, and in line with plenty of the views expressed on CL over the past few months. But it is untenable...
  • If one purely considers rationality then nobody would buy a football club.

    It is extremely difficult to make a profit and even the most successful clubs are hamstrung by debt.

    So why do people persist in purchasing football clubs given the above? Two essential reasons in my view. Firstly a sound financial one in that the football losses can legitimately be "group relieved" (I use British terminology here) against profits from other business entities for tax purposes if the structure is set up right.

    Secondly that sound financial reason, namely offsetting losses against other profits, enables successful businessmen to gain considerable kudos whilst indulging a hobby. In other words it is an emotional desire just like you, me or any other "ordinary" fan.

    That is why, sound as it is in logic and financial fact, Grapevine's analysis is limited in my opinion and I speak as one of his admirers 99 times out of 100.

    Emotion comes into the equation whoever you are. The businessman is probably better equipped to "switch off" that emotion, as that ability is almost certainly partly how he has made his money, if the costs get too high but emotion is the driving force which is no different to Stilladdicted, Weegie, Prague, me etc.

  • Or perhaps Chrissy wanted to have control over which players he brought in, allowed to go, chose to play. On this point I actually have some sympathy with the club owners. When you see how Pardew wasted millions, i would want a bit more say than is currently accepted. Chris was old school manager and paid the price. My view, for what it's worth was that Chrissy needed a skilled tactician who would challenge him . I loved AD but always felt from the outset that they were almost too alike in their way of thinking. I quite fancy having both Jose and Chrissy at the helm but I somehow think it won't happen ;-)
    It was inevitable that Chrissy would have to go and as I am a adherent of tippy tippy football, I also got frustrated with our style of play. I just felt that our tedious play was mainly dictated by a very limited choice of players although Chrissy was inevitably going to be a son of Curbs.
    RD may yet turn out to be a brilliant visionary or he may come to be seen as a slightly bonkers failed politician and football club owner.
    But anyone who tries to take the emotion out of football will ultimately fail. I have yet to be persuaded that RD understands this.
  • For someone like me who in general is more positive then negative about the new owners plan, yet loves SCP(im still calling him this), the saddest thing about this season is that in the end i agreed with the decision to change Manager/Head Coach, as i think we would have gone down under Chrissy, not because of a lack of tactical skill or failing in that way but because a negative atmosphere had spread due to the change of ownership and Chris quite within his rights decided to make a stand over what enviroment he was happy to work in.

    I personally have managed to move on fairly quickly from the heartbreak of the SCP journey not ending 10 more years in the future when he left us to become England manager as i predicted, due to three main reason.

    1. We stayed up, which was huge considering our FA Cup heartbreak, limited squad, honest mistakes in the January transfer market and our busy schedule of games.

    2. I believe in the new owners philosphy in general and im hopeful that we could see a future of enjoyable passing football played by half a team of youth players and some young hungry foreign talent.

    3. That our likeable all round nice guy Manager has been replaced by another likeable all round nice guy, even if he is not our likeable nice guy(yet).

    Im not sure why we can't be sad Chrissy is gone but at the same time, not feeling the need to have a constant attack on anything our new owner does, that a small minority on both sides seem to want to enforce.


  • edited May 2014
    As other posters have said, football is indeed a business, but it is a funny sort of business, where clubs compete against others in non-business like ways. Clubs like QPR who set out to make massive losses. It is also a business, where you can do much right of the off the pitch, but suffer from getting relegated. You can get relegated by the poor eyesight of an official or a bad bounce of the ball. I would imagine, Doncaster are one of the better run clubs at this level for instance and Blackburn, Bolton and QPR the worst! This is where football differs from business in general. A great example of this is selling Kermogant. From the business angle, everything about this was right – an aging player who won’t command a transfer fee going forward. But, the money it brought in had to be offset against the risk that it would make us more likely to be relegated. That is where football as a business can be different! The cost of relegation would have been greater than the money the sale brought in. RD said himself in the programme that Charlton couldn't afford to be relegated. Fortunately we survived and it goes back to being a good bit of business again, but the margins between success and failure can be very narrow.

    When Airman said it could be the most needless relegation in our history, he wasn't saying we would get relegated, he was referring to the possibility that we could. And those who choose to use the fact that we stayed up as justification for the approach, are in my opinion missing the point.

    A successful business man presumably learns lessons fast, so hopefully dodging the bullet, now means we will make the right calls in the summer and have a successful season. But it is not unreasonable to wait for some clear evidence before building up our hopes. Developments like Riga staying on, key out of contract players signing up and I will be as optimistic as the next man or woman. I just haven't forgotten the frustration I felt in our winter transfer activity - both inwards and outwards. As a fan, I have little interest in being told we nearly got this player or that one - I want to see some success in this area. It is what the club needs to be successful.
  • @pragueaddick In the piece I wrote on 2013 Championship finances for the supporters trust I noted that there is no obvious correlation between money spent and league position in the championship. Clubs like Burnley and Derby have succeeded with an overall cost base of £22M whereas some of the clubs with parachute payments have failed with costs of £40-50M. However one thing is absolutely clear: once one cuts the football and non football costs to £17M or less then you are in for a relegation fight. Millwall, Peterborough, Doncaster, Yeovil, Barnsley and now Charlton have all tried "competing" with that level of financing.

    Now there is a very strong correlation in the premier league between wage bill and league position and one could therefore look at why this doesn't hold for the Championship:
    Second season factor as competitor clubs suss you out?
    The impacts of relegation from the Premier League - very few clubs bounce back in the automatic slots - one could argue that Burnley did but their model looks altogether different to other relegated clubs
    Good overall management and football coaching - I like this one! The Championship is uber competitive and requires as much if not more skill than a mid table premier league club to build a winning squad with the finances available.

    Once we know who is being retained it might be a good time to appraise the last three years at CAFC in terms of the Slater/Jiminez/Powell era and look at how one season we finish 9th straight after coming up and yet the next we are bottom of the league albeit with games in hand. I'm afraid the simple answer is to look at the strikers with Fuller, Hulse, Kermorgant one season and then they are all gone. And yet we have won more games this season without Kermorgant than with. And in the last few games Sordell and Harriott have been scoring for fun with a new style of football.

    Everyone is capable of beating everyone else and to hammer out four points home and away against each and every bottom half team is what is needed to challenge for the playoffs. Riga has already intimated that there is a great base to build on but that CAFC need better players to move forwards. I think the ball is firmly in Duchatelet's court to secure the head coach and retain players... and to explain some of the vision to the fans.
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  • @‌seriously_red

    Szymanksi's study covers BOTH the FAPL and the Championship together, and this over a 10 year period.

    Personally I am not a big fan of Mr Szymanski, but that's for qualitative reasons. I would not dare to argue with his methodology.
  • ....... for or agin........ ...to pouring oil ......

    .......heading for hell in a handcart........

    .......has oft........

    I thought you'd stopped going to those "Medieval Knights" dinners SHG?

  • edited May 2014
    If FFP does bed in it will definitely be to our advantage - but does anybody think it will? Just because it is so obviously needed means nothing in a game where money holds all the power. There is news talk of Man City being fined £50m. Yes, a sizeable amount even for them - but preferable to them than losing a meagre 3 points I would say. The initial FFP suggestion that any fines go to the other clubs in the league sounded right. Clubs that might be disadvantaged by QPRs approach which morally is cheating. Clubs it would hurt QPR to make stronger by taking the unsustainable approach they have. But the clubs with money have the power to fight it and so it gets watered down.

    Barcelona get a transfer ban for nicking young players from smaller clubs – akin to a millionaire getting out of his Bentley and stealing a tramps coins from his cup. But they fight it and are free to do the same again this year – maybe they will even nick Poyet from a tramp living in SE7! I would like to see a range of punishments – and the one that is applied should be the most painful one in the circumstances. But you can’t sort the game out if the big clubs won’t let you! And they never will. I think it is a form of capitalism after all.

    If RD is planning around FFP - I think he is making a mistake. By the time action gets taken, it will be so watered down as to be meaningless.
  • I sit in the Lower North and want the opponents to win.

    Diego Poyet has been voted the Charlton Player of the Year - and he hasn't even crossed the half-way line. If I were Roland Duchatelet, I would demolish Sparrows Lane, sell it for flats and spend the money on good players.

    ???????????? Getting more bizarre Viewfinder.
  • @‌seriously_red

    Szymanksi's study covers BOTH the FAPL and the Championship together, and this over a 10 year period.

    Personally I am not a big fan of Mr Szymanski, but that's for qualitative reasons. I would not dare to argue with his methodology.
    I think the methodology is suspect as it assumes the same approach over the ten year time period - so fine if you've had Wenger as manager throughout but a bit suspect if you've gone from Curbishley to Dowie/Pardew and then to no money spent with Parkinson and Powell. The graphic shows CAFC to the right of the line or spending more for average performance than a typical club but that is not our experience of the last three years, is it?

    As before a Charlton comparison between CAFC wages vs mean and league position for each era might be more valid.
  • edited May 2014
    Chris Powell was sacked because we were bottom of the league, could not score, and had been dumped out of the Cup by our inferiors. It was absolutely right that Duchatelet axed Powell.

    There is a constituency on this forum that said: "Even if we are relegated, I want Powell to manage us against Crawley, Colchester, and Port Vale". Would Powell have saved us? It's a daft argument: Even the Gods don't know.

    Duchatelet timed it precisely. He gave Powell a month to carry on not winning - and then he gave another manager twelve games to save us from Chesterfield and Fleetwood. If Duchatelet had made the change with only six games left, we might have been adrift - too late.

    May I put it another way? If Duchaletet had ignored the fans' intense love of Powell and given Riga the job when he bought the club - quickly - we might now be basking in the satisfaction of finishing ninth rather than eighteenth.

    Among all the unknowns, one thing is absolutely certain. We must find some midfield players who are physically strong and mentally sharp to compete seriously in the Championship.





  • Chris Powell was sacked because we were bottom of the league, could not score, and had been dumped out of the Cup by our inferiors. It was absolutely right that Duchatelet axed Powell.

    Yawn... even though as has been said on here, by RD and by SCP himself ad nauseam, he wasn't sacked because of results or league position.

    We all know it was because we didn't practise our throw-ins properly on the training ground...
    Chris Powell wasn't sacked because we were bottom of the league and couldn't score? LeaburnForEngland: can you find another reason?

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