Take the opportunity to inform then. May only be a footy forum but every little helps.
I thought Cafc were going to do well this season so I put £100 each way on the handicap at 18:1.... The bookies in their wisdom gave us + 25 points in their certainty that we were relegation favourites. I'm comfortable with that and will win either £500 or £1,900 if we keep going. But I didn't bet my house, my job or my interest rates... Or any one else's job on it!
It's great that people are learning more about the Union during the Scottish process but risking our economic future for the sake of what is an ill informed bet is reckless in the extreme. Irresponsible deflection from the fact that the Tories are planning three more years of cuts to ordinary working people - source Osbourne on Newsnight just now!
dosnt seem to effect Wall Street or Singapore money goes World wide and has feek all to do with who is in the EU or not.
as for only contributing 15% of the dosh in the pot------who the f--k is going to make up the difference ? Italy ? Spain? ROI ? Turkey ? maybe Germany ? yes i mean after all their propping up the Euro zone so why not cover another 15 % net contribution ??
they dont want or need our 15% so why are they so hot on the trail of £1.7 billion SURCHARGE for being more successful than we should be ? lets just fail completely and let the other countries bail us out----------------oooooooooooo f--k we cant they already beat us to it.
bollox to all this lets have the vote---in or out----and make it final. On one side Tory/Labour/LibTwats ---and the majority of big busines. The other side UKIP should be a total walk over-------------get a set of gonads and lets vote.
What has the European Union ever done for us?
Nothing!
Well, except for
improving food safety measures introducing better air quality standards providing quality standards for drinking water introducing water quality standards for the sea providing support for small and medium sized businesses drastically improving passenger rights ensuring fairer trials across the whole EU and introducing the European Arrest Warrant so that criminals can be brought to justice faster taking a global lead on climate change securing our energy supplies protecting children through internet safety and toy safety coordinating help for international disasters promoting gender equality fighting trafficking, abuse and violence against women improving healthcare standards across Europe controlling hazardous chemicals improving consumer rights, especially online, with more transparency and improved return rights improving safety in the workplace improving employee representation in the workplace guaranteeing breaks and holiday times in the workplace strengthening deposit guarantee schemes so that our savings are protected up to EUR 100,000 reducing telephone costs reducing mobile phone roaming charges recognising member states’ driving licences across the EU allowing us to live and work in any EU country guaranteeing us medical care in any EU country guaranteeing legal protection across the EU fighting organised crime organising migration from non-EU states deregulating air travel to provide more competition and lower prices introducing a common currency for over 300 million people, removing exchange charges guaranteeing freedom of religion promoting the development of regenerable energy enabling students to study abroad promoting the production of European films protecting the diversity of European languages promoting regional culture But apart from that? Nothing!
Well, except for creating the longest period of peace and stability in Europe ever seen in the whole of history.
That list is truly hilarious and no I won't be commenting, because it just really is too crass for comment.
dosnt seem to effect Wall Street or Singapore money goes World wide and has feek all to do with who is in the EU or not.
as for only contributing 15% of the dosh in the pot------who the f--k is going to make up the difference ? Italy ? Spain? ROI ? Turkey ? maybe Germany ? yes i mean after all their propping up the Euro zone so why not cover another 15 % net contribution ??
they dont want or need our 15% so why are they so hot on the trail of £1.7 billion SURCHARGE for being more successful than we should be ? lets just fail completely and let the other countries bail us out----------------oooooooooooo f--k we cant they already beat us to it.
bollox to all this lets have the vote---in or out----and make it final. On one side Tory/Labour/LibTwats ---and the majority of big busines. The other side UKIP should be a total walk over-------------get a set of gonads and lets vote.
What has the European Union ever done for us?
Nothing!
Well, except for
improving food safety measures introducing better air quality standards providing quality standards for drinking water introducing water quality standards for the sea providing support for small and medium sized businesses drastically improving passenger rights ensuring fairer trials across the whole EU and introducing the European Arrest Warrant so that criminals can be brought to justice faster taking a global lead on climate change securing our energy supplies protecting children through internet safety and toy safety coordinating help for international disasters promoting gender equality fighting trafficking, abuse and violence against women improving healthcare standards across Europe controlling hazardous chemicals improving consumer rights, especially online, with more transparency and improved return rights improving safety in the workplace improving employee representation in the workplace guaranteeing breaks and holiday times in the workplace strengthening deposit guarantee schemes so that our savings are protected up to EUR 100,000 reducing telephone costs reducing mobile phone roaming charges recognising member states’ driving licences across the EU allowing us to live and work in any EU country guaranteeing us medical care in any EU country guaranteeing legal protection across the EU fighting organised crime organising migration from non-EU states deregulating air travel to provide more competition and lower prices introducing a common currency for over 300 million people, removing exchange charges guaranteeing freedom of religion promoting the development of regenerable energy enabling students to study abroad promoting the production of European films protecting the diversity of European languages promoting regional culture But apart from that? Nothing!
Well, except for creating the longest period of peace and stability in Europe ever seen in the whole of history.
Yes but apart from all that, what have the romans EU ever done for us?
dosnt seem to effect Wall Street or Singapore money goes World wide and has feek all to do with who is in the EU or not.
as for only contributing 15% of the dosh in the pot------who the f--k is going to make up the difference ? Italy ? Spain? ROI ? Turkey ? maybe Germany ? yes i mean after all their propping up the Euro zone so why not cover another 15 % net contribution ??
they dont want or need our 15% so why are they so hot on the trail of £1.7 billion SURCHARGE for being more successful than we should be ? lets just fail completely and let the other countries bail us out----------------oooooooooooo f--k we cant they already beat us to it.
bollox to all this lets have the vote---in or out----and make it final. On one side Tory/Labour/LibTwats ---and the majority of big busines. The other side UKIP should be a total walk over-------------get a set of gonads and lets vote.
What has the European Union ever done for us?
Nothing!
Well, except for
improving food safety measures introducing better air quality standards providing quality standards for drinking water introducing water quality standards for the sea providing support for small and medium sized businesses drastically improving passenger rights ensuring fairer trials across the whole EU and introducing the European Arrest Warrant so that criminals can be brought to justice faster taking a global lead on climate change securing our energy supplies protecting children through internet safety and toy safety coordinating help for international disasters promoting gender equality fighting trafficking, abuse and violence against women improving healthcare standards across Europe controlling hazardous chemicals improving consumer rights, especially online, with more transparency and improved return rights improving safety in the workplace improving employee representation in the workplace guaranteeing breaks and holiday times in the workplace strengthening deposit guarantee schemes so that our savings are protected up to EUR 100,000 reducing telephone costs reducing mobile phone roaming charges recognising member states’ driving licences across the EU allowing us to live and work in any EU country guaranteeing us medical care in any EU country guaranteeing legal protection across the EU fighting organised crime organising migration from non-EU states deregulating air travel to provide more competition and lower prices introducing a common currency for over 300 million people, removing exchange charges guaranteeing freedom of religion promoting the development of regenerable energy enabling students to study abroad promoting the production of European films protecting the diversity of European languages promoting regional culture But apart from that? Nothing!
Well, except for creating the longest period of peace and stability in Europe ever seen in the whole of history.
That list is truly hilarious and no I won't be commenting, because it just really is too crass for comment.
so have a vote on it ---its so fucking good give people the vote--- get some bollox between the lot of you--its only UKIP to beat
+ Freedom of Religious worship UN not EU 1948 + Securing energy supply ---ho ho ho ho and this is the year we will have black out if its a tad cold +fighting organised crime --do fuck off ---free movement of scum bags across borders makes it + easier for the scum to do their shit + Promoting regional culture-------are u fecking insane !!!!! where is the ENGLISH culture in u pan European utopia ? + Common currency ho ho ho really are you saying thats a fecking success ? feck knows what it will be like when it goes wrong !! + The migration from none European countries is down to the EU ??? and your saying this is a success !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FFS really ?
look its so fecking great being in the EU we will ALL die if we leave . The Torys will go with big business who love the EU--so do the Libs and Labour---its a cake walk of a vote. You only have the UKIPers to beat FFS should be a 98% yes vote. Make it simple FULLY In or FULLY OUT. No more arguments --no more"its the EUs fault(or not)"-----fully in or fully out. I cant see what your afraid of .
I'm afraid of ill informed voters
read as: I'm afraid people will vote the way i don't want them to.
In part you are correct. I am afraid that the arguments for leaving the EU will prevail regardless of the damage it will cause the country where my grandchild, children and I live.
Where you are wrong is in that I don't want people to vote how I want them to but based on facts and not based on fear, ignorance, scaremongering and blind prejudice.
The price of democracy is that the perople sometimes make bad decisions.
I'm in favour of a referendum. We need to lance the boil and I think people will vote to stay in.
Agree, but our politicians need to be more compelling as to the reasons we should stay. I want to 100% but I can understand the thinking of those that don't.
Oliver James .. who ? .. not the Emmerdale actor but a 'left wing commentator' .. and of course that type of commentator is always right.
I could state a counter case or negative/positive answer to each of his claims .. 26% foreign born doctors for example .. cheaper labour than investing in decent facilities and educational grants where UK born students would be able to study and go on to practice medicine .. and this is reflected throughout the UK labour market .. foreigners are imported to do all kinds of work from pipe lagging to IT innovation .. because the UK education system is too expensive and inefficient, it is easier and cheaper to import skills .. here we go folks .. the UK economy and social structures all over need serious analysis and reworking from top to bottom .. and you know what ? .. it aint gonna happen until things get worse if at all .... the 'market', the capitalist so called system must not always dictate .. Lab/Tory/LibDem/UKIP .. none of the mouthy and devious politicians and their 'parties' have any answers to the serious questions that are here today and other matters that will soon appear over the horizon for the British people
(take another example closer to the interests of most if not all on here .. foreign owners and managers of football clubs .. who do they more and more often choose to employ ? .. foreign born footballers and managers that's who .. the influx of foreigners into the championship, even into the 1st division is proof positive of this .. and football is just the tip of a huge iceberg in this respect ..)
we as a nation need to put our own house in order before 'we' start worrying about matters that affect other European countries or nations further afield .. let Afghanistan and Iraq be the last ill founded and unsuccessful military ventures that 'we' undertake and let the British people decide for good or bad whether membership should continue in a club where 'we' are not particularly liked, i.e. the European 'Union'
dosnt seem to effect Wall Street or Singapore money goes World wide and has feek all to do with who is in the EU or not.
as for only contributing 15% of the dosh in the pot------who the f--k is going to make up the difference ? Italy ? Spain? ROI ? Turkey ? maybe Germany ? yes i mean after all their propping up the Euro zone so why not cover another 15 % net contribution ??
they dont want or need our 15% so why are they so hot on the trail of £1.7 billion SURCHARGE for being more successful than we should be ? lets just fail completely and let the other countries bail us out----------------oooooooooooo f--k we cant they already beat us to it.
bollox to all this lets have the vote---in or out----and make it final. On one side Tory/Labour/LibTwats ---and the majority of big busines. The other side UKIP should be a total walk over-------------get a set of gonads and lets vote.
What has the European Union ever done for us?
Nothing!
Well, except for
improving food safety measures introducing better air quality standards providing quality standards for drinking water introducing water quality standards for the sea providing support for small and medium sized businesses drastically improving passenger rights ensuring fairer trials across the whole EU and introducing the European Arrest Warrant so that criminals can be brought to justice faster taking a global lead on climate change securing our energy supplies protecting children through internet safety and toy safety coordinating help for international disasters promoting gender equality fighting trafficking, abuse and violence against women improving healthcare standards across Europe controlling hazardous chemicals improving consumer rights, especially online, with more transparency and improved return rights improving safety in the workplace improving employee representation in the workplace guaranteeing breaks and holiday times in the workplace strengthening deposit guarantee schemes so that our savings are protected up to EUR 100,000 reducing telephone costs reducing mobile phone roaming charges recognising member states’ driving licences across the EU allowing us to live and work in any EU country guaranteeing us medical care in any EU country guaranteeing legal protection across the EU fighting organised crime organising migration from non-EU states deregulating air travel to provide more competition and lower prices introducing a common currency for over 300 million people, removing exchange charges guaranteeing freedom of religion promoting the development of regenerable energy enabling students to study abroad promoting the production of European films protecting the diversity of European languages promoting regional culture But apart from that? Nothing!
Well, except for creating the longest period of peace and stability in Europe ever seen in the whole of history.
Good God!!!! We would be living in the Stone Age if the EU had not come along.
based on blind prejudice we wont let people vote, but will fully support a vote if "we" are going to win ------------------FFS left wing democracy in action
Or in true EU democratic style..................if you lose a referendum, make them vote again and again until they get it right. Or just ignore the results altogether and form a new treaty eliminating the need for any more referendums! Only the EU could think of something as wholly democratic as that lol
based on blind prejudice we wont let people vote, but will fully support a vote if "we" are going to win ------------------FFS left wing democracy in action
But the EU is a massively complex entity. I've said before on here I have my doubts about how clued in the general public are about how the EU works and it's pros and cons. I include myself in this.
Besides an in out referendum really only benefits those opposed to it. If they lose they lose nothing on the other hand anyone pro EU loses everything but gains nothing.
Interesting post colthe3rd– would the pro Europe group gain nothing from a vote to stay in. It may dent Ukip enough to see the back of Nigel Farage and if David Cameron backed the out campaign and lost, his position would be untenable. Could be huge implication for both results.
based on blind prejudice we wont let people vote, but will fully support a vote if "we" are going to win ------------------FFS left wing democracy in action
But the EU is a massively complex entity. I've said before on here I have my doubts about how clued in the general public are about how the EU works and it's pros and cons. I include myself in this.
Besides an in out referendum really only benefits those opposed to it. If they lose they lose nothing on the other hand anyone pro EU loses everything but gains nothing.
Besides an in out referendum really only benefits those opposed to it. If they lose they lose nothing on the other hand anyone pro EU loses everything but gains nothing.
People who are opposed to it will lose nothing? How do you work that out? People who are opposed to it are opposed to it because they don`t agree with it, they don`t like it, they never asked for it and they don`t want it.
People who are opposed to it want to be part of a sovereign country not an "EU area" or member state. They want the opportunity to be governed at home and for decisions to be made there and in the interest of their sovereign country and it`s people.
People who are opposed to it don`t want total and complete integration into an undemocratic,unaccountable, unelected and basically unstoppable political machine that is hellbent on destroying the nation state and never ending expansion.
People who are opposed to it will never accept having every aspect of their lives controlled by the European Commission which is the government of the EU under another name. People who are opposed to it resent being driven into abject poverty by it`s pathetic and deliberate policies. Any organisation that can implement such a thing as the common fisheries policy has no credibility and should be disbanded immediately.
Tell the people of Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal,etc how fantastic the EU is. Tell the 45-50,000 homeless people in Athens how great the EU is. Tell the people of Cyprus who had their bank accounts raided and their money stolen from them how great the EU is. Tell the people who voted against the EU in various referendums only to have their democratic rights and decisions treated with total hatred and contempt how great the EU is.
The truth is that the EU is failing and has been failing for some years now. It`s refusal to accept reform or change it`s course is it`s own downfall and there are serious issues ahead for the people of the EU. People are turning against it in their millions and for bloody good reason.
The EU has been nothing but a power crazed, empire hungry pack of lies since day one and it will never change. It is just one big pack of bullshit with a few token gestures thrown in for the people to try and placate them for a while. All the time the main beneficiaries(politicians)all play happily along lying and conning their own people. Even the BBC are on the EU progaganda payroll unsurprisingly enough!
Their latest little power trip and show of arrogance was to get involved in something which has f-all to do with them and in their quest for expansion they help start a war in Eastern Ukraine during which thousands have died. Well done the EU, you are so great it`s unreal!
Hope you enjoy your Nobel Peace Prize!
One last thing! Even pro-EU people surely don`t just assume that it`s a coincidence that the non EU members who trade with it are the best performing economies? Let`s face it, the EU and their beloved "Euro Project" have destroyed Europe as an economic force.
Along with their deliberate and relentless destruction of once proud independent countries that were full of culture and tradition it has to be said...............The EU is so great!
based on blind prejudice we wont let people vote, but will fully support a vote if "we" are going to win ------------------FFS left wing democracy in action
But the EU is a massively complex entity. I've said before on here I have my doubts about how clued in the general public are about how the EU works and it's pros and cons. I include myself in this.
Besides an in out referendum really only benefits those opposed to it. If they lose they lose nothing on the other hand anyone pro EU loses everything but gains nothing.
Interesting post colthe3rd– would the pro Europe group gain nothing from a vote to stay in. It may dent Ukip enough to see the back of Nigel Farage and if David Cameron backed the out campaign and lost, his position would be untenable. Could be huge implication for both results.
Obviously I'm oversimplifying it, but if we had a referendum and the result was no and all that happened was the demise of a small political party, that's hardly a significant victory when the downside is complete withdrawal from the EU with practically no chance of joining again. That's a huge gamble to take for very little gain imo. Even if it did spell the end for UKIP, I'm certain another party would spring up in it's place and in another 40 years we'd have another referendum on the matter.
Yet parties supporting the EU keep getting elected. So by voting for the current government in which both parties are pro EU that is democratic. That is how our system works.
There was a referendum before and the vote was 2 to 1 to stay in so that was democratic.
Now there is a anti- EU party and they are gaining strength so there is a viable alternative if people want to vote anti- EU. UKIP has been around for a while but hasn't made a break through. So people could have voted for them before and will be able to vote for them in 2015 and they may win seats. That is democratic.
Cameron will prefer to try to renegotiate the treaties first to give him a stronger hand when fighting the referendum. But If UKIP win a lot of tory seats he may not get that chance.
I personally think we should have a referendum on staying in the EU. If the majority say we should stay then that should be issue closed for a number of years, as is the case in Scotland.
If the majority say we should leave then there is clear democratic mandate and we should leave.
But as with Scotland once a referendum campaign starts both sides will start to present their arguments and hopefully in a full and coherent way so that the people can make an informed choice.
As we saw in Scotland when people were presented with arguments they started to consider the pros and cons. It is up to the campaigns and the media to make sure people are informed of both sides of the argument and the responsibility of individuals to find out for themselves
Yes, some people will remain "ill informed" although that very much depends from which angle you are looking at it.
The polls show that there is not a huge majority for the antis or pros (again as in Scotland). I think that big business will come out in favour of staying in, like they mainly did in Scotland, and some will fear the uncertainties of leaving, as in Scotland. And I think the vote will be to stay in, as it was in Scotland. There will then be cries of "fix", "media bias", "big business scaring people" (like in Scotland) but it will be democratic.
But as with Scotland once a referendum campaign starts both sides will start to present their arguments and hopefully is full and coherent way so that the people can make an informed choice.
Good post Henry but the quoted bit is what I would have a problem with. The facts would not be presented in a referendum campaign on the EU. There would be a lot of shouting with words such as immigrants and billions of pounds thrown in. Those of us not well informed are likely to remain that way.
But as with Scotland once a referendum campaign starts both sides will start to present their arguments and hopefully is full and coherent way so that the people can make an informed choice.
Good post Henry but the quoted bit is what I would have a problem with. The facts would not be presented in a referendum campaign on the EU. There would be a lot of shouting with words such as immigrants and billions of pounds thrown in. Those of us not well informed are likely to remain that way.
But some would argue that immigration and EU spending are important issues and so they are informed if they vote on that basis.
In other elections people vote on one or more of local issues, national issues, the NHS, the economy, Armed forces spending, social issues, international issues. To them they are the most important issues and the areas where they feel "informed".
Goonerhater would call anyone who voted Labour a twonk or worse. Which one is ill informed? GH or the labour voter?
It is one of the weaknesses but also its main strength that everyone gets a vote. No matter how "intelligent", well read, informed, etc etc we all get a vote.
As some former Liberal MP once said "“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.”
But as with Scotland once a referendum campaign starts both sides will start to present their arguments and hopefully is full and coherent way so that the people can make an informed choice.
Good post Henry but the quoted bit is what I would have a problem with. The facts would not be presented in a referendum campaign on the EU. There would be a lot of shouting with words such as immigrants and billions of pounds thrown in. Those of us not well informed are likely to remain that way.
But some would argue that immigration and EU spending are important issues and so they are informed if they vote on that basis.
In other elections people vote on one or more of local issues, national issues, the NHS, the economy, Armed forces spending, social issues, international issues. To them they are the most important issues and the areas where they feel "informed".
Goonerhater would call anyone who voted Labour a twonk or worse. Which one is ill informed? GH or the labour voter?
It is one of the weaknesses but also its main strength that everyone gets a vote. No matter how "intelligent", well read, informed, etc etc we all get a vote.
As some former Liberal MP once said "“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.”
My problem is with what "facts" would be presented in any debate. Using figures like x,0000 entered the country last month or we spend £x billion a year on the EU, really doesn't help clarify anything. If there was sensible reasoned debate from both sides I'd be all for it, I just have worries that it would descend into a massive slanging match as some posters seem to enjoy doing in these threads.
But as with Scotland once a referendum campaign starts both sides will start to present their arguments and hopefully is full and coherent way so that the people can make an informed choice.
Good post Henry but the quoted bit is what I would have a problem with. The facts would not be presented in a referendum campaign on the EU. There would be a lot of shouting with words such as immigrants and billions of pounds thrown in. Those of us not well informed are likely to remain that way.
But some would argue that immigration and EU spending are important issues and so they are informed if they vote on that basis.
In other elections people vote on one or more of local issues, national issues, the NHS, the economy, Armed forces spending, social issues, international issues. To them they are the most important issues and the areas where they feel "informed".
Goonerhater would call anyone who voted Labour a twonk or worse. Which one is ill informed? GH or the labour voter?
It is one of the weaknesses but also its main strength that everyone gets a vote. No matter how "intelligent", well read, informed, etc etc we all get a vote.
As some former Liberal MP once said "“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.”
My problem is with what "facts" would be presented in any debate. Using figures like x,0000 entered the country last month or we spend £x billion a year on the EU, really doesn't help clarify anything. If there was sensible reasoned debate from both sides I'd be all for it, I just have worries that it would descend into a massive slanging match as some posters seem to enjoy doing in these threads.
So a normal election then with claim and counter claim.
Those that are already firmly pro or anti will vote that way regardless.
The large group who don't have a firm view either way (the swing voters) will listen to friends, family, the media and make their decision. That is democracy.
There are lots of pro-EU stats and there are lots of anti-EU stats.
There are lots of emotional arguments for staying in and pulling out.
I still believe that many people vote for their own and their wider families well being. So people who know they have to use the NHS vote for the party that will deliver the best health service. We can argue who that is but whichever party can make the best case to that individual will get their vote.
We saw in places like Barking that the BNP did well in getting votes in local and council elections. SOME people felt that the other parties and mainly the labour party in this case, weren't listening. Also a lot of other people didn't bother to vote. So the Labour party and anti-fascists started talking, started listening and got the vote out. Result, no fascist BNP counsellors in Barking. (and before anyone claims it I'm not calling UKIP fascist).
The point is that a well run campaign can counter "ill informed" views and bring out the swing voters. Look at the very high turn out in Scotland.
I have serious concerns about how the EU operates. However, at the moment I do believe the pros outweighs the cons for a European entity - though it's current formula stinks.
The nation needs a referendum on this without a doubt, so that the issues can be openly debated without the screams of xenophobia or federalism. We can then decide on where our future lies democratically.
We can also do with some respect towards other peoples views and stop the bile creeping in just because those views may be different from yours.
I have serious concerns about how the EU operates. However, at the moment I do believe the pros outweighs the cons for a European entity - though it's current formula stinks.
The nation needs a referendum on this without a doubt, so that the issues can be openly debated without the screams of xenophobia or federalism. We can then decide on where our future lies democratically.
We can also do with some respect towards other peoples views and stop the bile creeping in just because those views may be different from yours.
Yet parties supporting the EU keep getting elected. So by voting for the current government in which both parties are pro EU that is democratic. That is how our system works.
There was a referendum before and the vote was 2 to 1 to stay in so that was democratic.
Surely you can't forget (or ignore) the last European Election Results?
The highest number of elected UK representatives returned by the UK was UKIP with 24 seats. To me that's a pretty resounding message to the current Government and opposition that they're starting to lose the battle.
They're not helped by their European colleagues who are hardly falling over themselves to make the EU enticing for UK voters.
I am not sure it is even possible to have a rational argument on membership of the EU, the organisation is so protective of its institutions some may say secretive / corrupt that it's own auditors haven't signed off the EU budgets for 19 consecutive years. I cannot think of any other supposed democratic institution that could get away with such a flagrant disregard of its own rules. And there I think is the main reason for a sensible debate on our membership of the EU. Why on earth should we be governed by an institution that cares nothing about taking our money and spending it without having to be accountable? The fact is when a vote was held on membership of the "Common market" some nearly 40 years ago nobody told the British population of the extent of national government powers that would be eroded. I am too young to have voted in that referendum, so therefore myself and indeed generations of people have never had the opportunity to have our say on the Uk membership of this corrupt, money grabbing institution. I appreciate HI s point re voting for successive governments that have supported membership of the EU, however there has never been a viable alternative to vote for,excepting perhaps lunatic parties such as the BNP. It's high time this debate was held and a referendum should take place in my view within the first year of a new parliament. Any politician from any party should surely have enough belief in there own convictions, to trust us the British people to understand the arguments and make a rational decision as to whether we are a mature enough democracy to govern our own affairs.
The fact is when a vote was held on membership of the "Common market" some nearly 40 years ago nobody told the British population of the extent of national government powers that would be eroded.
Comments
But I didn't bet my house, my job or my interest rates... Or any one else's job on it!
It's great that people are learning more about the Union during the Scottish process but risking our economic future for the sake of what is an ill informed bet is reckless in the extreme. Irresponsible deflection from the fact that the Tories are planning three more years of cuts to ordinary working people - source Osbourne on Newsnight just now!
http://oliverjamesopinion.com/2014/03/09/5-facts-about-immigration-that-may-surprise-you/
Links for the information is on that site.
romansEU ever done for us?In part you are correct. I am afraid that the arguments for leaving the EU will prevail regardless of the damage it will cause the country where my grandchild, children and I live.
Where you are wrong is in that I don't want people to vote how I want them to but based on facts and not based on fear, ignorance, scaremongering and blind prejudice.
I'm in favour of a referendum. We need to lance the boil and I think people will vote to stay in.
I could state a counter case or negative/positive answer to each of his claims .. 26% foreign born doctors for example .. cheaper labour than investing in decent facilities and educational grants where UK born students would be able to study and go on to practice medicine .. and this is reflected throughout the UK labour market .. foreigners are imported to do all kinds of work from pipe lagging to IT innovation .. because the UK education system is too expensive and inefficient, it is easier and cheaper to import skills .. here we go folks .. the UK economy and social structures all over need serious analysis and reworking from top to bottom .. and you know what ? .. it aint gonna happen until things get worse if at all .... the 'market', the capitalist so called system must not always dictate .. Lab/Tory/LibDem/UKIP .. none of the mouthy and devious politicians and their 'parties' have any answers to the serious questions that are here today and other matters that will soon appear over the horizon for the British people
(take another example closer to the interests of most if not all on here .. foreign owners and managers of football clubs .. who do they more and more often choose to employ ? .. foreign born footballers and managers that's who .. the influx of foreigners into the championship, even into the 1st division is proof positive of this .. and football is just the tip of a huge iceberg in this respect ..)
we as a nation need to put our own house in order before 'we' start worrying about matters that affect other European countries or nations further afield .. let Afghanistan and Iraq be the last ill founded and unsuccessful military ventures that 'we' undertake and let the British people decide for good or bad whether membership should continue in a club where 'we' are not particularly liked, i.e. the European 'Union'
Besides an in out referendum really only benefits those opposed to it. If they lose they lose nothing on the other hand anyone pro EU loses everything but gains nothing.
It may dent Ukip enough to see the back of Nigel Farage and if David Cameron backed the out campaign and lost, his position would be untenable.
Could be huge implication for both results.
Wow that really doesn't sound very democratic.
People who are opposed to it want to be part of a sovereign country not an "EU area" or member state. They want the opportunity to be governed at home and for decisions to be made there and in the interest of their sovereign country and it`s people.
People who are opposed to it don`t want total and complete integration into an undemocratic,unaccountable, unelected and basically unstoppable political machine that is hellbent on destroying the nation state and never ending expansion.
People who are opposed to it will never accept having every aspect of their lives controlled by the European Commission which is the government of the EU under another name. People who are opposed to it resent being driven into abject poverty by it`s pathetic and deliberate policies. Any organisation that can implement such a thing as the common fisheries policy has no credibility and should be disbanded immediately.
Tell the people of Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal,etc how fantastic the EU is. Tell the 45-50,000 homeless people in Athens how great the EU is. Tell the people of Cyprus who had their bank accounts raided and their money stolen from them how great the EU is. Tell the people who voted against the EU in various referendums only to have their democratic rights and decisions treated with total hatred and contempt how great the EU is.
The truth is that the EU is failing and has been failing for some years now. It`s refusal to accept reform or change it`s course is it`s own downfall and there are serious issues ahead for the people of the EU. People are turning against it in their millions and for bloody good reason.
The EU has been nothing but a power crazed, empire hungry pack of lies since day one and it will never change. It is just one big pack of bullshit with a few token gestures thrown in for the people to try and placate them for a while. All the time the main beneficiaries(politicians)all play happily along lying and conning their own people. Even the BBC are on the EU progaganda payroll unsurprisingly enough!
Their latest little power trip and show of arrogance was to get involved in something which has f-all to do with them and in their quest for expansion they help start a war in Eastern Ukraine during which thousands have died. Well done the EU, you are so great it`s unreal!
Hope you enjoy your Nobel Peace Prize!
One last thing! Even pro-EU people surely don`t just assume that it`s a coincidence that the non EU members who trade with it are the best performing economies? Let`s face it, the EU and their beloved "Euro Project" have destroyed Europe as an economic force.
Along with their deliberate and relentless destruction of once proud independent countries that were full of culture and tradition it has to be said...............The EU is so great!
There was a referendum before and the vote was 2 to 1 to stay in so that was democratic.
Now there is a anti- EU party and they are gaining strength so there is a viable alternative if people want to vote anti- EU. UKIP has been around for a while but hasn't made a break through. So people could have voted for them before and will be able to vote for them in 2015 and they may win seats. That is democratic.
Cameron will prefer to try to renegotiate the treaties first to give him a stronger hand when fighting the referendum. But If UKIP win a lot of tory seats he may not get that chance.
I personally think we should have a referendum on staying in the EU. If the majority say we should stay then that should be issue closed for a number of years, as is the case in Scotland.
If the majority say we should leave then there is clear democratic mandate and we should leave.
But as with Scotland once a referendum campaign starts both sides will start to present their arguments and hopefully in a full and coherent way so that the people can make an informed choice.
As we saw in Scotland when people were presented with arguments they started to consider the pros and cons. It is up to the campaigns and the media to make sure people are informed of both sides of the argument and the responsibility of individuals to find out for themselves
Yes, some people will remain "ill informed" although that very much depends from which angle you are looking at it.
The polls show that there is not a huge majority for the antis or pros (again as in Scotland). I think that big business will come out in favour of staying in, like they mainly did in Scotland, and some will fear the uncertainties of leaving, as in Scotland. And I think the vote will be to stay in, as it was in Scotland. There will then be cries of "fix", "media bias", "big business scaring people" (like in Scotland) but it will be democratic.
In other elections people vote on one or more of local issues, national issues, the NHS, the economy, Armed forces spending, social issues, international issues. To them they are the most important issues and the areas where they feel "informed".
Goonerhater would call anyone who voted Labour a twonk or worse. Which one is ill informed? GH or the labour voter?
It is one of the weaknesses but also its main strength that everyone gets a vote. No matter how "intelligent", well read, informed, etc etc we all get a vote.
As some former Liberal MP once said "“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.”
Those that are already firmly pro or anti will vote that way regardless.
The large group who don't have a firm view either way (the swing voters) will listen to friends, family, the media and make their decision. That is democracy.
There are lots of pro-EU stats and there are lots of anti-EU stats.
There are lots of emotional arguments for staying in and pulling out.
I still believe that many people vote for their own and their wider families well being. So people who know they have to use the NHS vote for the party that will deliver the best health service. We can argue who that is but whichever party can make the best case to that individual will get their vote.
We saw in places like Barking that the BNP did well in getting votes in local and council elections. SOME people felt that the other parties and mainly the labour party in this case, weren't listening. Also a lot of other people didn't bother to vote. So the Labour party and anti-fascists started talking, started listening and got the vote out. Result, no fascist BNP counsellors in Barking. (and before anyone claims it I'm not calling UKIP fascist).
The point is that a well run campaign can counter "ill informed" views and bring out the swing voters. Look at the very high turn out in Scotland.
The nation needs a referendum on this without a doubt, so that the issues can be openly debated without the screams of xenophobia or federalism. We can then decide on where our future lies democratically.
We can also do with some respect towards other peoples views and stop the bile creeping in just because those views may be different from yours.
The highest number of elected UK representatives returned by the UK was UKIP with 24 seats. To me that's a pretty resounding message to the current Government and opposition that they're starting to lose the battle.
They're not helped by their European colleagues who are hardly falling over themselves to make the EU enticing for UK voters.
I cannot think of any other supposed democratic institution that could get away with such a flagrant disregard of its own rules.
And there I think is the main reason for a sensible debate on our membership of the EU.
Why on earth should we be governed by an institution that cares nothing about taking our money and spending it without having to be accountable?
The fact is when a vote was held on membership of the "Common market" some nearly 40 years ago nobody told the British population of the extent of national government powers that would be eroded.
I am too young to have voted in that referendum, so therefore myself and indeed generations of people have never had the opportunity to have our say on the Uk membership of this corrupt, money grabbing institution.
I appreciate HI s point re voting for successive governments that have supported membership of the EU, however there has never been a viable alternative to vote for,excepting perhaps lunatic parties such as the BNP.
It's high time this debate was held and a referendum should take place in my view within the first year of a new parliament.
Any politician from any party should surely have enough belief in there own convictions, to trust us the British people to understand the arguments and make a rational decision as to whether we are a mature enough democracy to govern our own affairs.